Cloud Moveset analysis (including Gifycats + Frame Data)

[Shadestars]

On a high recovery, the technique described in the post above (to Climhazzard spike) definitely looks like an option. But it doesn't seem like many characters have a need to recover high, except and , so this might be a rare opportunity-based technique.

Yeah that'd be true. But if I may don my tinfoil hat, what if Climhazzard is (as some people have already been speculating) a good oos option, so Imagine shielding a get-up attack or something then hop into climhazzard right on the ledge cancel :V I need to watch the trailer again but it looked like Climhazzard might just have enough forward momentum in the air to make it happen, that'd be nuts lol. Probably too OP to be true though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah that'd be true. But if I may don my tinfoil hat, what if Climhazzard is (as some people have already been speculating) a good oos option, so Imagine shielding a get-up attack or something then hop into climhazzard right on the ledge cancel :V I need to watch the trailer again but it looked like Climhazzard might just have enough forward momentum in the air to make it happen, that'd be nuts lol. Probably too OP to be true though.

Climhazzard has zero forward momentum.

Limit Break Climhazzard, however...

 

[Shadestars]

Climhazzard has zero forward momentum.

Limit Break Climhazzard, however...

Yeah true, just rewatched the trailer to check. Looks like maybe a little push forward at the very start of the attack but certainly not enough unless Limit charged.

Still though, Climhazzard looks like an amazing tool in general anyway. Like when Cloud did a dtilt to upair combo, probably Climhazzard could work aswell, with the downward hit punishing airdodges, assuming its not a true combo in the first place.

Uugh the speculation is unbearable, I just can't wait to play him already >.<

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I wonder if any of his throws will reference Meteor Rain...

 

[Deleted member]

On the topic of Uair, does anyone else think Cloud might sort of lunge upwards when it's executed? In the trailer it seems like he does this to an extent, although it's a bit ambiguous considering he does an immediate DJ -> Uair on Samus.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

On the topic of Uair, does anyone else think Cloud might sort of lunge upwards when it's executed? In the trailer it seems like he does this to an extent, although it's a bit ambiguous considering he does an immediate DJ -> Uair on Samus.

The trailer also showed that he has a high double jump, so it could simply be the jump's momentum...

 

[Neo Zero]

Clim being a viable OoS option would be nice. It certainly has the range, just hope it has the speed.

 

[Virum]

Judging from the footage Climhazzard's startup is about frame 7/8 so it should definitely work as a solid OoS option. I wonder if LB Climhazzard will have any sort of startup invincibility like Marth's Up B...

 

[adom4]

I'm kind of worried about the 2nd hit of Climhazzard, it seems rather easy to tech.

 

[Neo Zero]

Judging from the footage Climhazzard's startup is about frame 7/8 so it should definitely work as a solid OoS option. I wonder if LB Climhazzard will have any sort of startup invincibility like Marth's Up B...

Not that it'd likely help considering I don't remember him flash during LB Cross Slash, but is there any sort of visible sign of invincibility that can be noticed in the LB Climhazzard part?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Not that it'd likely help considering I don't remember him flash during LB Cross Slash, but is there any sort of visible sign of invincibility that can be noticed in the LB Climhazzard part?

Besides the sword being a disjointed hitbox, which can be close enough if spaced correctly?

Nope, nothing at all...

 

[Ffamran]

I'm kind of worried about the 2nd hit of Climhazzard, it seems rather easy to tech.

Climhazzard's definitely going to have a frame 1 landing hit that launches people away from Cloud like Ike's Aether or probably Kirby's Final Cutter. If it didn't then Ike and Kirby would have really crappy Up Specials that can be teched. I think you can see it here - notice the stutter that happens before Captain Falcon is supposed to hit the ground. Gif from the animation analysis thread.

Edit: Looks like Climhazzard hits 4 times: there's the stab, a lift, a dunk, and a landing hit.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Cloud's moveset is starting to remind me of a certain Venus adept... Looks like Cloud makes Isaac deconfirmed. I won't give up hope for Smash 5 Isaac, but for now it seems we've reached the quota on blond swordsmen.

 

[Bladeviper]

Cloud's moveset is starting to remind me of a certain Venus adept... Looks like Cloud makes Isaac deconfirmed. I won't give up hope for Smash 5 Isaac, but for now it seems we've reached the quota on blond swordsmen.

i dont see how they are similar but ok

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Cloud's moveset is starting to remind me of a certain Venus adept... Looks like Cloud makes Isaac deconfirmed. I won't give up hope for Smash 5 Isaac, but for now it seems we've reached the quota on blond swordsmen.

Besides Issac's Cutting Edge having the possibility to work similarly to Cloud's Blade Beam, I see no possible resemblance between the two...

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Blade beam is like Move psynergy, Climhazzard is similar to how Lift could have worked, their sword attacks look similar (though Cloud's sword is definitely a unique property) and the Limit Break system is a lot like how Isaac's Djinn/Summon mechanic would have probably been integrated.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Blade beam is like Move psynergy, Climhazzard is similar to how Lift could have worked, their sword attacks look similar (though Cloud's sword is definitely a unique property) and the Limit Break system is a lot like how Isaac's Djinn/Summon mechanic would have probably been integrated.

Blade Beam being like Move is kind of a stretch. Not only is Cutting Edge much more similar to Blade Beam than Move is, but the latter would've likely worked as a pushbox, much like it did in Brawl.

Lift would've been different as, the way I see it, it would launch the player similarly to Rosalina's up special (or he'd have gotten Teleport instead)

The Djiinns would work more like the Monado Arts, imo. Or maybe a combination of both gimmicks?

 

[meleebrawler]

Climhazzard's definitely going to have a frame 1 landing hit that launches people away from Cloud like Ike's Aether or probably Kirby's Final Cutter. If it didn't then Ike and Kirby would have really crappy Up Specials that can be teched. I think you can see it here - notice the stutter that happens before Captain Falcon is supposed to hit the ground. Gif from the animation analysis thread.

Edit: Looks like Climhazzard hits 4 times: there's the stab, a lift, a dunk, and a landing hit.

Refresh my memory, has it always been possible to up b straight out of a dash?

 

[ligersandtigons]

Refresh my memory, has it always been possible to up b straight out of a dash?

i'm 99% sure you can

i hit up b's with both zero suit and roy out've a dash all the time

 

[meleebrawler]

At any rate, it is kind of funny seeing how Cloud comes down from Climhazzard, it LOOKS like he's gonna bring it down two-handed but then he basically twists himself sideways and lets the sword drag him down while he strikes a cool pose.

It also has the side effect of moving the disjoint closer to him when he does so.

 

[Iron Maw]

Here is another analysis video and IMO probably the best so far. It's on par with GIMR's production and direction wise but overall better since it avoids using any frame data estimates, since that's pretty unreliable at moment. He also points some things that hasn't been pick up on by others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFeSJiXEWgg

As far as speculated issue of Sheik interrupting Cloud's Limit use is concerned, I don't think it will be an problem if two conditions are met:

1.) If Limit Breaks can indeed charged by use of Special Moves or attacks as it is looking.
2.) If Blade Beam can clash with Needles as opposed to the later going through.

The result of this would essentially screw up Sheik's Needle game against Cloud and force her to approach his strike zone, right where he would want her. Arguably we probably only need the second condition filled but in any case here on really it's ultimately a battle of reads.

One thing is certain though, this one of those match ups Cloud really doesn't want to be off-stage with this risky recovery. Thankfully with two meteor smashes and our range Cloud shouldn't have to all that much. Heck a well timed LB Blade Beam on the edge of the stage would wreck the opposition badly.

 

[Shamsy]

I'm curious of three things in particular:

1. Combo throw?

2. Kill throw?

3. Any auto cancelling aerials? Or at least something that doesn't appear to have like 15 frames of lag. >.>

 

[ligersandtigons]

Here is another analysis video and IMO probably the best so far. It's on par with GIMR's production and direction wise but overall better since it avoids using any frame data estimates, since that's pretty unreliable at moment. He also points some things that hasn't been pick up on by others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFeSJiXEWgg

As far as speculated issue of Sheik interrupting Cloud's Limit use is concerned, I don't think it will be an problem if two conditions are met:

1.) If Limit Breaks can indeed charged by use of Special Moves or attacks as it is looking.
2.) If Blade Beam can clash with Needles as opposed to the later going through.

The result of this would essentially screw up Sheik's Needle game against Cloud and force her to approach his strike zone, right where he would want her. Arguably we probably only need the second condition filled but in any case here on really it's ultimately a battle of reads.

One thing is certain though, this one of those match ups Cloud really doesn't want to be off-stage with this risky recovery. Thankfully with two meteor smashes and our range Cloud shouldn't have to all that much. Heck a well timed LB Blade Beam on the edge of the stage wreck the opposition badly.

i'm not really knowledgable when it comes to the inner workings of smash, but aren't needles transcendent, meaning they're unclashable?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm curious of three things in particular:

1. Combo throw?

2. Kill throw?

3. Any auto cancelling aerials? Or at least something that doesn't appear to have like 15 frames of lag. >.>

1. If anything, either forward throw to dash attack or some follow ups off of up and/or down throw
2. If a throw references Meteor Rain, it should be the kill throw. Otherwise...not sure...
3. Closest thing would be up air, but we'll see when he's out.

 

[Shamsy]

1. If anything, either forward throw to dash attack or some follow ups off of up and/or down throw
2. If a throw references Meteor Rain, it should be the kill throw. Otherwise...not sure...
3. Closest thing would be up air, but we'll see when he's out.

I'm hoping up throw is a kill throw. Would compliment the large amount of horizontal kill power he already seems to have.

Down throw I'm hoping has low endlag and a good angle, maybe enough to get a nair/fair to start up a string. Hell it could pop them straight up for that crazy good looking up air for all I care....just don't want a Marth type throw. xD

 

[Iron Maw]

i'm not really knowledgable when it comes to the inner workings of smash, but aren't needles transcendent, meaning they're unclashable?

Unfortunately I'm not quite sure on that myself. That said even if that is case if Cloud can still charge his Limit Break on hit with his B specials (perhaps even shielded) then we still benefit more from tossing it out than approaching our selves in this instance. Sheik will probably be forced to come to us anyway in that case. Moreover depending BB's range Sheik will either half to dodge or shield it giving us time for quick charges too.

 

[Bladeviper]

Unfortunately I'm not quite sure on that myself. That said even if that is case if Cloud can still charge his Limit Break on hit with his B specials (perhaps even shielded) then we still benefit more from tossing it out than approaching our selves in this instance. Sheik will probably be forced to come to us anyway in that case. Moreover depending BB's range Sheik will either half to dodge or shield it giving us time for quick charges too.

he may be able to d tilt under needles as well

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

That's less short and more non existent. True, to early to make judgement calls mind you.

Though thinking on it, I do have a rather...unorthodox theory. As you yourself pointed out, the dash animation is clearly based on his dash from Dissidia. Iirc, you could act out of Dashes instantly in that game (attacks, guarding, jumping, etc; ). There wasn't an animation I remember, just you dash, you input a command, and you instantly do it. I wonder then if that possibly was ported over to Cloud to where as soon as you input a command and you're NOT dashing (as in, the input for it isn't there and likely, the initial forced start up is done) you can then proceed to do any standing option, in this case jab. Obviously I can't claim that at all from only a single point of evidence that's inconclusive at best, but if so it could be a VERY strong tool.

EDIT: For the record, not saying some weird mechanic change. More just something of how he's programmed that allows it to simulate that

I know I got that syndrome here, but that sounds cool af XD

 

[Ffamran]

Cloud's moveset is starting to remind me of a certain Venus adept... Looks like Cloud makes Isaac deconfirmed. I won't give up hope for Smash 5 Isaac, but for now it seems we've reached the quota on blond swordsmen.

I don't know much about Isaac, but Isaac would seem more like a "mobile" Robin to me i.e. a magic swordsman rather than a swordsman with a projectile. Personally, Cloud reminds me more of Dante; he has the basic High Time to Helm Splitter combo through Climhazzard, Up Smash is like "unrisen" High Time - Dante could choose to rise or not with High Time -, Smash 4's Braver is like Helm Splitter, but without the fall down with your opponent, Climhazzard's stab is like Stinger - more like Vergil's Stinger in DMC4: SE -, Cross Slash is like Million Stab or Million Slash, a series of fast strikes followed by a finisher, and Cloud's Limit Break mechanic augmenting his moves is like Devil Trigger augmenting moves in DMC4. They are different characters, but for me, some of the principles are shared between Cloud and Dante. Principles that pretty much any character can share like how I feel like Falco and Street Fighter V Nash are similar characters.

Refresh my memory, has it always been possible to up b straight out of a dash?

You can: stop, pivot, jump, dash attack, Up Smash, shield, dash grab, pivot grab, spot dodge, roll, throw items, and do any of your Specials while dashing or running. Also, out of a dash, you can dash again, but you can do this while running. You cannot do jabs, tilts, standing grab, Side Smash, or Down Smash while dashing or running without stopping or pivoting.

 

[Shamsy]

he may be able to d tilt under needles as well

I'm just sitting here hoping Sheik is absolutely gutted in the patch that brings us Cloud lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

he may be able to d tilt under needles as well

I honestly doubt it; I think his knee is just high enough to make the needles hit.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Two posts up- I've been hoping for that for 3 consecutive patches, and I got nothing. Only two words come to mind when I think of how to nerf Sheik. You probably have heard them before.

Bouncing.
Fish.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Two posts up- I've been hoping for that for 3 consecutive patches, and I got nothing. Only two words come to mind when I think of how to nerf Sheik. You probably have heard them before.

Bouncing.
Fish.

I would normally agree, but Sheik already has enough trouble KOing.

Nerfing Bouncing Fish, as small as a nerf it could be, would be more than enough to make her plummet to mid, if not low tier.

 

[Shamsy]

I would normally agree, but Sheik already has enough trouble KOing.

Nerfing Bouncing Fish, as small as a nerf it could be, would be more than enough to make her plummet to mid, if not low tier.

Naw the easiest Sheik nerf is Vanish. The extra hit + a freaking windbox is TOO much for an already invulnerable KO type recovery lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Naw the easiest Sheik nerf is Vanish. The extra hit + a freaking windbox is TOO much for an already invulnerable KO type recovery lol.

Just remove the invulnerability on startup

 

[Shamsy]

Just remove the invulnerability on startup

Agreed...if I could spike her straight to hell instead of getting wrecked when drop zoning her I might not cry as much lol.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Agreed...if I could spike her straight to hell instead of getting wrecked when drop zoning her I might not cry as much lol.

It would also make the explosions much more fair, as the whole move would be "high risk, high reward"

 

[Shamsy]

It would also make the explosions much more fair, as the whole move would be "high risk, high reward"

Indeed, though that'd already tone her down a notch I'd still want the windbox removed....^-^

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Indeed, though that'd already tone her down a notch I'd still want the windbox removed....^-^

Nah, the windbox doesn't need to go.

Maybe nerfed in range, but not removed...

 

[Shamsy]

Nah, the windbox doesn't need to go.

Maybe nerfed in range, but not removed...

I'd accept a range nerf. As it stands you have to chase her, shield, AND THEN punish. Simply because it blows you halfway across the stage lol.