- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
You forgot VLS which also did not ban wobbling.
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Clarification on the Wobbles: IT WAS NOT BANNED FOR BEING GOOD
- Thread starter KishPrime
- Start date
Eloboration on EC: Pound 3, and Cort's stage list that banned walk offs because of CGing, which has since been C/P to lots of tournaments without question.
- Joined
- Apr 23, 2005
- Messages
- 2,617
This is one of the most ignorant posts i've ever read.
I see this as one of the biggest problems right now with the developing Brawl community. Almost no critical thought has been put into the ruleset and it very well could stifle the development of the game. Ane even if it doesn't we lose potential random/counterpick stages because they were never given a chance. The copy/paste mentality of a lot of TO's right now is a major problem.
A few questions...
Also, was it even possible to do Mewtwo's soul stunner in a tournament? and, if so, how?
Anyways, on topic, I'm going to go with not banning things until they actually break the game. And that includes most stages.
Is there a video of this? Because I really want to see it...
Also, was it even possible to do Mewtwo's soul stunner in a tournament? and, if so, how?
Anyways, on topic, I'm going to go with not banning things until they actually break the game. And that includes most stages.
kamekasu
Smash Ace
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dr1Cp6TFjoE
Like a teams Wobble. Instead of Nana D-tilt to reset the grab timer it's Fox laser.
EDIT: Chu is Wobbling and Chillin is just tacking on damage with laser.
I don't see how, considering you need a red shell to perform it.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
do you realize what you're saying
Chu dat HIMSELF admitted it's broken, as well as Azn_Lep, two top IC players. They both admit it being super broken, and they both told me themselves after they learned how to do it that it should be banned. THEY TOLD ME THIS IN PERSON. I THINK THAT KIND OF MATTERS A LOT.
I don't care what coincidences in the past you use to argue it's not broken, the FACT is it's super broken, even the majority of players who use it admit that.
Chu dat HIMSELF admitted it's broken, as well as Azn_Lep, two top IC players. They both admit it being super broken, and they both told me themselves after they learned how to do it that it should be banned. THEY TOLD ME THIS IN PERSON. I THINK THAT KIND OF MATTERS A LOT.
I don't care what coincidences in the past you use to argue it's not broken, the FACT is it's super broken, even the majority of players who use it admit that.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Shine spikes are super broken too, just like rest is super broken, sheik's down throw on about half the cast, falco's laser, etc. There's lots of stuff gayer then wobbling.
Just because they think so does not mean they are right. There is still no EVIDENCE. That means it matters very little what people THINK, so no, it does not matter nearly as much as you think it does. Top players can be wrong too.
DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHEN I TALK IN ALL CAPS I DON'T THINK SO IT JUST MAKES ME LOOK LIKE I'M YELLING AT PEOPLE TO MAKE THEM LISTEN
lawl
I'm pretty sure that Fox's lasers have zero stun
INTERNET YELLING!
But seriously, if this was a court of law, the burden of evidence would be on those that want something to be banned. Without clear, irrefutable evidence that a technique is broken, then it cannot be banned.
Besides, Chu Dat or Azn_Lep do not constitute evidence in the first place. They are both top placing Smashers, so they would do well no matter who they mained. A technique can be considered broken if it wildly skews tournament results. If Random Smasher 17 beats M2K or Azen due to wobbling, and it were to occur enough times that it represents a trend, then there is evidence to consider a ban.
Of course, that never happened.
g-regulate
Smash Hero
some dude from florida wobbled me all 4 stocks, and still lost the match because he messed up the last stock.
flaco
The Terminator
wow nice video Emmy I feel so sorry for her in the first stock
ROFL. Yea, Chudat thinks its broken, yet, at all the tournaments he has tried to use it to win, he has failed. He can think its broken, and you can think its broken all you want, at the end of the day, he has always run into an opponent who doesn't think its broken and he ends up losing with the technique.
In other words, Peach is such a hard counter for Ice Climbers that no amount of wobbling will save the character in the match up.
Hell, ChuDat says its broken, but he will also admit he can't land the infinite on Azen at less than 100% because Azen will always break out in time. I even had them test this together for like 20 minutes straight, ChuDat could not infinite Azen at less than 100%, so if grabbing above 100% should be banned, then should should any KO move above 100%.
Also, I don't see what the point is of showing a video where someone bites on feints and gets punished with being wobbled. If you play against IC's a lot, wobbling becomes much more manageable.
In other words, Peach is such a hard counter for Ice Climbers that no amount of wobbling will save the character in the match up.
Hell, ChuDat says its broken, but he will also admit he can't land the infinite on Azen at less than 100% because Azen will always break out in time. I even had them test this together for like 20 minutes straight, ChuDat could not infinite Azen at less than 100%, so if grabbing above 100% should be banned, then should should any KO move above 100%.
Also, I don't see what the point is of showing a video where someone bites on feints and gets punished with being wobbled. If you play against IC's a lot, wobbling becomes much more manageable.
pockyD
Smash Legend
ban peach
I agree, her downsmash is broken, Vidjo once admitted it to me.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
Wobbling is much gayer than shinespikes, Falco's laser, and Sheik's CG.
Shinespikes: Are you trying to ****ing tell me that shinespiking is easier to pull off than wobbling? A wobble is an entire stock taken off from a single grab. A shinespike isn't exactly very easy to do if your opponent isn't a *******.
Falco's laser: This **** isn't even broken. Counter, jump, powershield, use platforms, do ****ing something. Or hell, just like, shield and wait for them to come to you. Do SOMETHING. Jeeze, Falco's laser is just an approach/bait tactic.
Sheik's CG: Does not work to 999% like wobbling, does not work on the entire cast, and it can be DI'ed out of.
Aesir
Smash Master
Wobbling isn't even that bad, once you get rid of nana they can't even wobble hell once popo is away from nana it won't work.
It's not even ban worthy it's just as good as shine spike, maybe better.
It's not even ban worthy it's just as good as shine spike, maybe better.
Europhoria
Smash Lord
Because everyone walks into synced grabs right? It's especially easy to keep Nana alive and beside Popo. Especially against characters like Marth, Fox, Peach, Falcon, Falco, Samus, etc.
I could post some vids of Azen vs. Chu where Chu wobbled every chance he got and still lost but you'd just attribute that to Azen wouldn't you?
It's easier if you play an IC main around your skill level who can wobble on command (I'm assuming you're decent and play a high tier) and see how many synced grabs he gets on you when you're over 40% compared to how many times you gimp Popo and/or Nana with a shine spike or whatever.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
regardless of how good you are, how good your opponent is, whether you're bound to win the match or not, whether your opponent doesn't have experience against ic's or not.
you should not be able to get a virtually non-situational, low-damage death someone by just tapping A over and over again.
it's virtually the exact same as the freeze glitch. if you play "don't get grabbed" you won't get freeze glitched either...freeze glitch is much harder to do than wobbling and it's still banned.
also, everyone, stop bringing up ChuDat.
HE'S CHU DAT.
let's talk about the random Ic's player at your local tourney that finished top ten because he wobbled everyone.
you should not be able to get a virtually non-situational, low-damage death someone by just tapping A over and over again.
it's virtually the exact same as the freeze glitch. if you play "don't get grabbed" you won't get freeze glitched either...freeze glitch is much harder to do than wobbling and it's still banned.
also, everyone, stop bringing up ChuDat.
HE'S CHU DAT.
let's talk about the random Ic's player at your local tourney that finished top ten because he wobbled everyone.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
i wish people would stop bringing up the "it goes up to 999%" part of wobbles as if it's part of why it deserves to be banned.
clearly if they're wobbling beyond a certain percentage (like 200) they're doing it to stall the match (or are angry and want you to "suffer" i guess) and stalling as a general rule is banned.
nobody is going to wobble you to 999, that's not allowed. the most they're going to go up to is like 170-200 to make sure you're dead.
clearly if they're wobbling beyond a certain percentage (like 200) they're doing it to stall the match (or are angry and want you to "suffer" i guess) and stalling as a general rule is banned.
nobody is going to wobble you to 999, that's not allowed. the most they're going to go up to is like 170-200 to make sure you're dead.
JFox
Smash Hero
No one does because they don't exist. However, players like Azen/Chu Dat are exactly who we usually look at for proof because they are the top players.
Also yes, no one uses it to stall. You aren't allowed in tournament play, rack up damage, get kill, it's over.
Finally though, please remember, you can shake out of it still at 50%. IT'S NOT EVEN 0 TO DEATH, MORE LIKE 50 TO DEATH UNLESS YOU HAVE SLOW FINGERS (I learned that trick from Mew2King).
Plus she can pull Bob-omb. BOB-BOMBS! Any character that can pull out a Bob-omb is obviously broken and unbeatable. BAN IT.
Chu doesn't count, because if he wins with wobbling, he hasn't skewed the results. He may move from 5th to 1st, but that's not a tournament system-breaking result. If someone who usually places 25th suddenly starts coming in 1st, then the tournament system is failing.
Aesir
Smash Master
No one has though as far as wobbling goes theres nothing game breaking about it. you might go from say 25th to like 17th or 13th maybe 9th. It takes a smart player to win with wobbling still I've tried many times to play IC and just wobble and win, and it doesn't work. THe IC are so fragile they almost need perfect scenarios to pull of their crap.
Chu can indeed skew the results. If he goes from Top 3 player to winning most every tournament, then that's a significant difference that could be used. This is something that we should expect to happen with a "broken" technique. Plus, we need to look at the impact at the top levels of play when we are searching for brokenness.
Facts say that he actually did worse with wobbling allowed than with it not allowed (though sometimes he chose not to use it).
Facts say that he actually did worse with wobbling allowed than with it not allowed (though sometimes he chose not to use it).
I suppose we have different definitions of the term "skew". I would certainly agree that Chu winning a tournament with wobbling that he normally wouldn't has "altered" the results, but not in a significant enough way to justify a ban. But now I'm just arguing semantics, which is pointless.
JFox
Smash Hero
I'm still interested in why the wobbles is less ban-worthy than the soul stunner. Both start with a grab. Both are difficult to do. Both keep your opponent locked down regardless of anything they do with the exception of wiggling out of the grab. And both can be used as a stall unless some form of rules are put in place to keep it from stalling.
If wobbling is unbanned, I demand to know what is broken about the M2's soul stunner. Ya can't just pick and choose, gotsta be fair about this sorta thing.
If wobbling is unbanned, I demand to know what is broken about the M2's soul stunner. Ya can't just pick and choose, gotsta be fair about this sorta thing.
It results in the player being unable to control his character, which is a major difference.
Im more wondering why people even bother to mention the Soul Stunner >_> I mean, it cant be done in a tournament that doesn't have items anyways.
Also, what about the glitch where if you catch a shadow ball from Mewtwo's Fthrow and then hit someone that causes the game to freeze. Shouldn't that be banned in teams as it can allow a team to stop a match from ending should they be losing?
Also, what about the glitch where if you catch a shadow ball from Mewtwo's Fthrow and then hit someone that causes the game to freeze. Shouldn't that be banned in teams as it can allow a team to stop a match from ending should they be losing?
I'd say its safe to say thats pretty banworthy.
It goes under the 'No preventing the match from ending, via stalling, etc.' really.
The reason why 'Wobbling' is being discussed, is because unlike this M2 glitch, and unlike Soul Stunner, Wobbling HAS been used to place 1st at EVO. Once.
As has been said before, until Wobbling or any other infinite greatly affects tournament outcomes, it will not be widely banned.
yoshi_fan
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 706
I think this have to been discused HARD before being banned,m but anyways
i my opinion i hate infinites, they make the game boring, and that chaacter broken, in MOST game. Character that can't infinity, character that's useless. Infinity = 1HKO (generally), combo = lotsofhitsKO. You can escape from a combo, but you can't escape from an infinity, more ever a inifinity grab, and MORE even with TWO characters. Is greatly broken ****...
So i'm going with banning it >_>
Edit: if there were some way to prevent it/counter it, i would say "not ban". is like in ssb64, you can do o-to-death combos with all characters so... don't get hit. But in melee the only character with infinite is ICs so...
The only way i see to prevent it is to kill nana fast, or to make her go away... Ca someone say me anothers ways to prevent it?
i my opinion i hate infinites, they make the game boring, and that chaacter broken, in MOST game. Character that can't infinity, character that's useless. Infinity = 1HKO (generally), combo = lotsofhitsKO. You can escape from a combo, but you can't escape from an infinity, more ever a inifinity grab, and MORE even with TWO characters. Is greatly broken ****...
So i'm going with banning it >_>
Edit: if there were some way to prevent it/counter it, i would say "not ban". is like in ssb64, you can do o-to-death combos with all characters so... don't get hit. But in melee the only character with infinite is ICs so...
The only way i see to prevent it is to kill nana fast, or to make her go away... Ca someone say me anothers ways to prevent it?
Thino
Smash Master
dont get grabbed?
Wobbling was never banned at FC! It doesn't need to be unbanned!
The soul stunner makes the match unplayable. Big difference.
Also, the way to avoid this, as already said, is to wiggle out. If you are good at wiggling out, you can get out as high at 50%. That's no worse than a Fox upsmash, and ultimately why it is pointless to ban it. You can also platform camp and make the ICs jump around.
Aesir
Smash Master
Different preference obviously you hate infinites some players like myself see them fun and awesome to watch. Just as long as they don't indefinitely stall a match.
The reason why this shouldn't be banned is simple it's the ****ing IC climbers they aren't winning tourneys with this, it's so easy to just break apart nana and popo and once that happens good bye infinite.
Don't get grabbed.
You can prevent this and even when it starts as long as you're under 50% you can get out of it. YOu just have to be fast and wiggle out as quickly as you can.
It shouldn't be banned rather melee players should just figure out how to get passed it, theres a reason chu doens't win every tourney he goes to now.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I don't see why people are bringing the Soul Stunner into this for comparison. If someone can actually pull that off in a real match then wtf that person is god. That thing is hard enough already to do in training mode lol.
yoshi_fan
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2007
- Messages
- 706
Aside of not getting grabbed (omg melee just turned ssb64'd xDD), thanks for the minus 50% tip, i didn't know that.
WEll even with this i'm not sure what to do, so i'm going with neutral (anyways, i prefer it banned, but that's not fair because like i said i hate infinites so... i'm not saying anything)