Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Vermy]

*waves hand*
Yesss....yeeessssss...
Let the hate flow through you.

Snakes ftilt ivy will 50% of the time lead to -1 stock. Do not want. Squirtle has the best tools to weave in and out safely, rack up damage, keep momentum with attack strings, and avoid Snakes camping game. Squirtles aerial mobility and Watergun alone combat Snake better than anything Ivysaur can throw out. Depressing, innit?
There is no question about it, Squirtle is the best choice to start with. Just move on please, Darth Vermy grows tired of silly ivy start talk.
....
......
........
*waves hand*
These aren't the pokemanz you're looking for.

 

[Dre89]

'After you use an Aerial Razor Leaf you can dash in and follow-up with a grab. (It's not guaranteed though) But it gets predicable fast so limit yourself.'


That's actually a pretty bad idea. Alot of players will spotdodge in that sort of situation, which against Snake can get you utilted, ftitlted, which can lead to a gimp after like 30%, or dthrown.

The only time I ever razor leaf-dashgrab (if I'm using Ivy for some strange reason- usually mucking around on wifi) is early on in a match, to condition them into spotdodging my dashes, so that later in the match in the same situation I can punish their spotdodge with a usmash for an early KO. I wouldn't do it against someone like Snake though who can get a KO from one ftilt.

But even what I do is probably a bad idea.

Edit: I know there's a quote option, I just messed it up and couldn't bother redoing it.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Perhaps the main reason I prefer to start with Ivy, besides the good damage racking opportunities, is to make sure Charizard doesn't come out until high percents. Getting tech-chased from 0% til whenever is a great way to ruin your momentum.

Starting with Squirtle often leads to this, at least for me.
--Squirtle goes out. Life's great. Snake's up to high damage. GOOD
----Squirtle gets the KO and switches to Ivy during respawn. Ivy's at high %. MEH
------Ivy gets KO'd quickly and a 0% Zard comes out. BAD

OR

----Squirtle switches to Ivy to get KO. Ivy switches to Charizard comes out at high % GOOD
------Charizard gets KO'd before Squirtle is fully rested. BAD

OR

------Charizard manages to stall long enough for Squirtle to recover. GOOD


Starting with Ivysaur often follows this pattern.
--Ivysaur racks up damage. Life's alright, a little dangerous. MEH
----Ivysaur gets the KO. (WTF?) Charizard comes out at high %. GOOD
------Charizard's not techchase bait. Gets KO'd. Fresh Squirtle comes out. GOOD

OR

----Ivysaur switches to Charizard to get the KO. Charizard is at high %. GOOD
------Charizard's again not techchase bait. Gets KO'd. Fresh Squirtle comes out. GOOD

Without going into a long and complicated details...
The Squirtle lead situation has the potential to lead into a 0% Charizard two or three times before the match is over. This is because by leading with Squirtle, theres alot more room to get KO'd, especially when switching to Ivy, before Charizard comes out. This pattern places high reliance on Squirtle, the best pokemon, at the risk of putting yourself in a bad position.

The Ivysaur lead situation only has one, or at worst, two points at which a miscalculation could lead to a 0% Charizard. This is because leading with Ivy bypasses the risk from the first stock, and puts the player in a better position to juggle their pokemon and make sure Charizard comes out only when damage is high. This strategy takes some emphasis off of Squirtle and places it on Ivy, the weaker of the two, but with the benefit of avoiding potentially bad situations.

In short...
If you want to maximize your time with the best pokemon for the job, start with Squirtle. Just be aware that with the problem of Fatigue an 0% Charizard, that momentum gained in the first stock is going to be considerably more difficult to keep.

If you want to stay safe in the late game, stick with Ivysaur. It's more difficult to gain momentum with her, but if you can manage the first stock, you shouldn't have to worry too much from there. 0% Charizard and Fatigue are much more easily averted.

Really, it just depends on what situation you want to put yourself in. Getting in a strong lead is important, of course. Squirtle, despite the danger of late game trouble, is the better option. Ivysaur, I think though, is the safer one.

 

[Katakiri]

Ivysaur is really great against snakes who dont know the matchup, because they do dumb stuff. If they are stupid enough to be taking anywhere NEAR 20 to 30% damage from JAB, then you really shouldn't be using them as a measure of the matchup.

Yes, but of course I didn't mean all at the same time. Meant over the course of a stock because I use it fairly frequently.

It's surprisingly safe since Snake's aerial options are pretty terrible at the range Ivy's Jab puts him. Any direct aerial attack would be telegraphed and Bullet Seed bait upon the landing.

The very most any Snake could land is an unsweetspotted B-Air. Maybe the last hit of D-Air if they're amazing. (I've tried and never got D-Air to hit, but it's very close)

I have a sinking feeling I'm going to be the only one that starts with Ivysaur in this discussion...
___________________

I left to work on Meowth and just came back and it looks like I was right.

It's not all that simple - sure you can handle it if all Snake does is sit back and chuck grenades, but Snake doesn't have to be afraid of moving in on Ivysaur. His DACUS can easily catch you if you're just throwing out leaves. It's also really easy to powershield the leaves, so he could always just walk towards you and and powershield, and you'll have to do something else.

I tend to space myself very well when I'm throwing Razor Leafs due to how many times I've played this match-up. I make sure I'm at a safe distance that I can safely react if I see or even feel a DACUS is coming.

Umm...f-tilt is not safe at all. I'm pretty sure if you f-tilt Snake can just stay out of range, then walk forward and f-tilt when you're in the move's cooldown. And if he shields it, you're definitely going to take a tilt to the face..

That's why I emphasized Jabs and not F-Tilt. I was just pointing out the fact that is does up-range Snake. I never said it was a good idea.


Ugh sorry guys. I was gonna reply to the rest of that stuff, but I have a huge head ache right now. I've been trying to replace Squirtle with Meowth keeping some of Squirtles animations. It's a lot of files and confusion so that's probably what my head ache is from. (Right now, he looks so bad that Egor would cringe.)

Imma go rest.


One last this though.

FYI snake can just ftilt the razor leaves to cancel them out. Mucho easy.

......How bad do you think I am at this game? Really now?

 

[T-block]

No one's trying to insult you Blaze =( Razor Leaf has a lot of cool down for a projectile... if Snake's f-tilt cancels out Razor Leaf then there's no way a leaf shot from a safe distance is going to hit or leave him open for anything. Don't get me wrong - I agree that Razor Leaf helps against grenade camping, but it's not going to keep out grenades 100%, as mentioned before. You're going to have to dodge them yourself eventually, and Snake won't have much of a problem getting in if he wants.

I assume you're talking about single jabs then, right? Ivy's jab hits on frame 7, and ends on frame 27, which is a surprising amount of commitment for a jab. I dunno... I don't use it, so I guess I shouldn't really comment, but on paper it doesn't seem to be anything special in this matchup at all.

 

[Toby.]

Chuckles, you neglected to mention the option of letting squirtle die. Then if you switch out ivy at high percents it eliminates the issue of a 0% zard.

Kata - I'm not trying to insult you.

If you acknowledge the fact that snake can evade, shield and cancel out the leaves without getting blown up by his nades (people have already mentioned various ways snake can do this...), then you should probably explain why razor leaf "wrecks any camping attempts snake might try". The fact that we can stop their momentum and blow them up is hardly something that shuts his camping game down, especially when he can happily back off and tilt our leaves until fatigue sets in.

Jab appears to be high risk, low reward in most matchups. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and play around with it in about 10 minutes. I really don't see it being very effective against snake though. Nades->the universe.

 

[Dre89]

I don't think razor leaf can outcamp virtually any char, it's easy to powershield, the start up is laggy and leaf walls are easily pentratable in general. The worst thing is Ivy doesn't have many options to punish powershielding at closer ranges like better projectile-chars do, and razor leafing at closer ranges has a fair bit of commitment anyway.

The thing about leaf vs. grenade camping, and let me know if I'm wrong here, is that Snake won't be getting hit by many leaves, whereas leaves can't keep out all grenades, and getting hit by a grenade is far worse than getting hit by a leaf, it doesn't seem like a good trade off for Ivy, unless I'm wrong.

It's surprisingly safe since Snake's aerial options are pretty terrible at the range Ivy's Jab puts him. Any direct aerial attack would be telegraphed and Bullet Seed bait upon the landing.

I think I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, because bulletseeding an aerial approach seems very dangerous, they just have to empty SH, or DI or even airdodge backward and they'd have a free hit on you.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Chuckles, you neglected to mention the option of letting squirtle die. Then if you switch out ivy at high percents it eliminates the issue of a 0% zard.

Wow, where's my brain. XD

There's still the situation where Squirtle succumbs to Fatigue, though. There's certaintly a point (Or occaison, if you rather.) at which switching to Ivysaur for the KO as opposed to keeping Squirtle out there is the better option. And that can set you up for trouble quite easily. If Snake outlasts Squirtle, Squirtles going to have it really rough getting the KO on his own.

Ivy worries less about fatigue, and switching to Charizard at high percents seems safer than having to switch to Ivy. I actually think it may depend more on the playstyle of the Snake, and whether or not he can run out Squirtle's fatigue time. Squirtle loses alot when tired.

 

[Steeler]

personally i'd rather squirtle get fatigued and just start camping like a ***** than switch in ivy for the KO and risk 0% zard

 

[Dre89]

Well if a 0% Zard is so bad, who do you use for the second stock?

 

[Magik0722]

Ivysuar

thats one of the pokemon as well you know

 

[Dre89]

I know, but I though everyone was saying Ivy was terrible and could get KO'd really early on after an ftilt or something like that. I guess he must be better than Charizard then.

 

[Magik0722]

Well to get one thing straight here, PT is a low tier character, hes going to have alot of bad matchups, that said, all 3 pokemon do pretty bad against snake

 

[Bomber7]

that pretty much is the case here. This reminds me of the Game&Watch discussion. All three Pokemon have their disadvantages against him, some more extreme than others, but we managed to find a starter that was best despite the odds against all three pokemon.

Reflecting on my match with Ran-Iji at Voodoo, I noticed that Ivy has few options in a CQC battle with Snake but I'm pretty sure I already saw that mentioned. We all know it wouldn't take too much effort for Snake to get in close, all he'd have to do is a mortar slide and there he is. Yeah I think Ivy will bash up Snake in the air, but in order to really do some damage, you'd have to be pulling off some wicked combos in the air with her or keep Snake in an infinite Nair chain and then follow up. You can put up an argument that Ivy has pretty good spacing tools and why should Snake be any different, well really I didn't find spacing Ran to be really effective, he broke through and the fight really began; and I'm usually pretty good at spacing with Ivy no matter what the skill of my opponent, but I'm convinced it was more because or Snakes capabilities than mere skill that my spacing was broken. Like it's already been said, Squirtle is our best bet.

Also keep in mind that after we finish all discussions, it's pretty much open discussion on anything. If there was a discussion that we had some disputes on like this on and I think Samus(?), we can go back and investigate without really having a time consraint of having to move on to the next character. So if you guys don't have any objection, let's move on to Sonic and we will come back after 8 more discussions and we can settle the dispute with Ivy.

Good discussion guys, good discussion.

 

[Vermy]

Can we move on to Sonic now? It feels like we've been stuck here on Snake forever.

 

[Magik0722]

Squirtle / Charizard

 

[Zigsta]

Squirtle's the best to start against Sonic. You'll outprioritize most of his attacks, and Sonic has a harder time hitting Squirtle. Charizard can be used here if you know the matchup well, but Charizard can take big damage from Sonic easily and fast.

 

[T-block]

Charizard all the way <3

Jabs, grab, f-tilt, d-tilt, Flamethrower, n-air are all good moves for stopping his approaches. Just sit back and respond to his moves - fatigue isn't as big a deal here since you'll be stock tanking with Charizard anyways....which brings me to the fact that Charizard can probably live until 200% against Sonic. Most of the time he'll be killing you with an edgeguard, so watch out for that.

It's harder for Sonic to hit Squirtle, sure, but I find it's pretty **** hard to hit Sonic and Squirtle as well >_> I dunno...I'm still figuring out how I feel about Squirtle vs. Sonic, but I'm definitely more comfortable with Charizard atm - I would definitely want to maximize Charizard's time here.

Ivysaur has no hope of keeping Sonic out - I try to use him as little as possible.

 

[Kith]

Don't get gimped while playing as Ivysaur by Sonic's Up-B. It's embarrassing >.<

 

[Steeler]

sonic is the one matchup that makes me realize just how bad ivysaur is. sonic has like 3 advantageous matchups maybe, and ivy is one of them.

 

[Toby.]

yeah... if we do anything other than nair with ivysaur we get *****. And they can beat nair anyway

 

[Zigsta]

My roomate's so bad that Ivysaur does the best against him. Lolz.

A good Sonic ***** Ivysaur pretty hard, namely since Ivysaur doesn't like being close up and Sonic relies on pressuring in close range.

 

[Toby.]

Sonic can also can punish every move we have really easily.

All it takes is one baited ftilt/dtilt/anything and we're ****ed.

Fun times =)

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: Sonic

sorry, was gone for a while. Carry on.

 

[Katakiri]

Well, I actually mained Sonic since Brawl was released until about 4 months ago, which is when I started to use PT competitively, and at any given time I'm still in the Sonic BR chat room so still have a wealth of knowledge about him.

Well, I'll start with Squirtle.
Squirtle is hell for Sonic. Which is not only from personal experience as a Sonic main, but I'm always told so when I fight against a Sonic main now.
Sonic is a character with sub-par range, low damage output, and low frame moves. Meaning Sonic is going to go through hell to KO or even get Squirtle to KO percentage. As I'm sure you know by now, Sonic's terrible kill options is one, if not the biggest, reason Sonic is low-mid tier. This really does show when fighting Squirtle.

Sonic's going to rely on you making a mistake because, while he's a fairly bad range-wise, he's the very definition of a "punishment" character. (Who else can grab the lag of an MK D-Smash from a distance of half of FD?) Squirtle's fast enough that this should never be a problem.

It's a pretty straightforward match-up, and there's no reason for Squirtle to switch to Ivysaur since he'll be living perhaps even past 150%. It's a battle of who can punish who, and Sonic should lose every time.


Next I'll talk about Ivysaur.
No. Just no. Ivysaur, should be nowhere near this match. It's amazing to me that if Ivysaur were just a little fast in terms of ending lag, she would probably be almost as tough as Squirtle for Sonic.
But unfortunately, Ivysaur has no way of punishing Sonic outside of Razor Leaf, N-Air, B-Air. Razor Leaf forces Sonic to approach but Ivysaur doesn't have much at all to stop him once he's close.
I'd just skip Ivysaur complete regardless of the stage since you'll take about 15% from switching at the most. (Sonic has literally no combos at 0 unless you're named Fox) But that's just me.


Next is Charizard.
Eh, this is a pretty even MU for Charizard. Annoying, but not hard. Sonic's B-Air is surprisingly good at stopping any approaches that aren't Rock Smash, but when Sonic has to play offense, he's generally grab bait for Charizard. The only thing you'd have to watch for is Sonic's F-Air since it eats shield.

______

In order of best to worst in terms of who to start with, I'd say:

1. Squirtle
2. Charizard
3. Charizard's Rock
4. Ivysaur

 

[T-block]

^sounds reasonable.

I know I'm not playing Squirtle vs Sonic properly... there's a good Sonic in my region, so I'll try Squirtle out some more and hopefully it'll be more like what you described. You gotta remember that Charizard doesn't have to approach though - I've found that defensive Charizard can answer anything Sonic has very well.

I wanna say the ideal switch order is start Squirtle -> tank Charizard for first stock. The thing is, I wouldn't even trust Ivysaur to be able to get a b-throw or anything to switch safely, so it'll most likely involve Charizard taking a hit. It seems pretty realistic that Squirtle could get the KO first before 80% or so. Then you could switch to Ivysaur on the KO, and then Charizard to take the hit. If the stage is Smashville or something with Baton Passing, this sounds like the best way to do it.

If you start Squirtle and Sonic gets you to 140% before you KO? Probably stick with Squirtle until you die, switch out Ivysaur immediately. On the other hand, if you start Charizard, you should be able to take at least 1.5 stocks before you die, then have Squirtle come in to finish it up. I'm not sure which is better anymore... keep in mind if it comes down to your last stock you'd rather have Charizard out than Squirtle to tank. This is a lot easier if you start Charizard.

The reason I think starting Squirtle might actually be better here is that Charizard is much more effective when he has a lead. I said before fatigue isn't too big of a deal since you're gonna be tanking stocks like crazy anyways, and Sonic will still die eventually. If you have the lead, then Sonic is forced to approach, which is when you can punish what he does.

 

[xxmoosexx]

Starting with squirtle's advantages-

1. Sonic has a hard time hitting you due to your speed, aerial mobility, and shellshifting

2. Your hydroplaning and shellshifting will make sonic really annoyed

3. Good damage on him

4. You could even kill him having an easier time than most

Disadvantages--

1. Seeing if you take the route of mindgames with shellshifting and it's plethora of techs....it will be a very long and annoying first stock

2. None that I can see...someone help out



CHARIZARD

1. You outrange Sonic like butthair

2. Easy time killing

3. Possibly a gimpppppppephpepsipp

4. The feeling of win when you start the match holding B and Sonic runs into your fire.

5. your grabs are pretty dang useful here

Disad---

1. Charizard can be overwhelmed if you let Sonic

2. He's big, Sonic's fast...possible damage racking

3. Won't be able to tank stocks as well in the end game



Ivysaur

Ad

1. Outrange Sonic

2. Good Damage Rackup

3. Chance you could kill him


Dis-

1. Obviously gimped by any char easily

2. YES


Thats all I got, I know I'm not pro but it's my theory

 

[Dre89]

Most shellshifting techs usually aren't that good though, and are rarely used in matches, considering most of them will get you punished against a good opponent, unless they don't know about them. I think the only two ones that have good application atm are the true hydroplane and the hydrograb gimp, but I could be wrong.

 

[Zigsta]

Most shellshifting techs usually aren't that good though, and are rarely used in matches, considering most of them will get you punished against a good opponent, unless they don't know about them. I think the only two ones that have good application atm are the true hydroplane and the hydrograb gimp, but I could be wrong.

False. Just don't be stupid and get hit.

 

[Steeler]

it depends on the character. it's kind of useless against olimar, for example.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Heh, even I'm going to have to advise against Ivysaur on this one...
I don't think Sonics's a huge fan of Ivy's tilts, N-Air isn't bad... Once tried a Bullet Seed by the edge, while he was dashing as me. Flew over me and off the stage, and I proceeded to edgeguard. That was fun.

I like Squirtle best in this one, because if you're careful, Sonic's gonna have a really hard time landing one of those kill moves. Squirtle usually lives to about 150% if I keep him out, though usually after I KO, if I'm at high percents, I'll send in Ivy to stock tank/stall as much as possible. Again, avoiding the kill move isn't that difficult if you know what to look for. It is alot easier for sonic to get in and set up for it though. On a good day, I can get a decent amount of damage off before Ivy falls. On a bad day, we basically trade stocks.

Charizard does pretty well, he's just combo-bait if you're not careful. Other'n that though, Sonic is everything Charizard looks for in an opponent. Easy to kill and difficult to get killed by. Rocksmash is even better than usual here, as it stuffs almost everything Sonic can toss your way. Best yet, Sonic has a tendency to run right into it, if you catch him halfway through a dash. Flamethrower is a good edgeguard, sometimes I can get a D-Tilt off aas a finisher if the Sonic is panicking and just mashing Up-B. Sonic is also pretty much screwed if he gets above you... Best yet, pretty much regardless of how long Squirtles out, chances are good that he'll be fully refreshed before Charizard finally goes down.

So yeah. I'd say start with Squirtle, but I also can't see any reason for not starting Charizard, if one wanted to.

 

[xxmoosexx]

I think i agree that Squirtle is a your best bet. He will rack up damage and could probably kill him. Then I'd go straight to Zard to stock tank and take another off. Then go to squirtle or Ivy. Really if you kill him first stock either char is relatively safe. Just don't get gimped when your Ivy and you can pull out with a win.

 

[Steeler]

i don't know how much of an advantage squirtle has in the survivability department, i find that sonic is a very fatigue-prone matchup. both characters should probably struggle to kill often.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

i don't know how much of an advantage squirtle has in the survivability department, i find that sonic is a very fatigue-prone matchup. both characters should probably struggle to kill often.

Maybe that'd be a good reason to start Charizard then. Charizard has no problem killing, even in fatuge, and should easily be able to get a stock off of Sonic, and then causee some major damage before going down himself. Makes Squirtles job coming in behind much easier if Sonic already has 50% or more. Leave Squirtle out there or Switch to Ivy to Stock tank. Either way, Charizard's gonna be coming out fresh as somepoint, and once that happens, it's all over for Sonic.

 

[Espy Rose]

sonic is the one matchup that makes me realize just how bad ivysaur is. sonic has like 3 advantageous matchups maybe, and ivy is one of them.

The only true advantaged match ups Sonic has are Samus, Link, and Ganondorf. Every other character either breaks even or has some type of advantage over him.

=====

Start with Squirtle if you want a heavy initial advantage.
Start with Charizard if you want to be at a consistent advantage as the game drags on.

 

[Bomber7]

Character Discussion: TOON LINK

RAAAAAAGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Old main has come back to haunt me!

Suggested Starters: Squirtle and Ivysaur

Thoughts:

Squirtle- an obvious choice because we are matching speed and mobility fro speed and mobility. Squirtle has no problem getting around projectiles and does better on the ground imo. The only drawl back I see is that you have to be careful in the air because Tink has some pretty good options in the aur plus he out reaches Squirtle.

Ivysaur- meh-ish on this one. I've gone against Hyro with my Ivysaur and as long as I space like he does, I usually do fair, however he is #3 in my state, unlike me who is not ranked period. Imo, Tink could be able to overwhelm Ivysaur with projectiles which could be bad and has better aerials to boot imo. Despite me having used to play Toon Link, I havn't played the PT-TL match-up enough to say for sure, however I'm starting to play Hyro more now adays since I started hosting my own tournies.

I know Reflex can add more because he played Hyro at LasT4.

 

[Sosuke]

Defiantly go Squirtle when you can against TL. @_@

Ivysaur and Charizard get camped hard, but at least Charizard can kill.

 

[Steeler]

The only true advantaged match ups Sonic has are Samus, Link, and Ganondorf. Every other character either breaks even or has some type of advantage over him.

=====

Start with Squirtle if you want a heavy initial advantage.
Start with Charizard if you want to be at a consistent advantage as the game drags on.

i don't see how sonic has an easier time with samus and link when ivysaur is the same type of character with even fewer spacing options, less safety, and weaker survivability

go squirtle like all 3 stocks against TL zomg ivysaur has no mobility and charizard is huge. both characters have big blindspots in front of them as well, and that really hurts against TL imo.

i think TL has a slight advantage overall but loses to squirtle imho

 

[Magik0722]

**** toon link

 

[TLMSheikant]

Im pretty sure TL slightly loses to squirtle. I find that matchup so hard. But ivy and charizard are **** sauce for TL . So easy. Definetely go squirtle all the time if you can lol.