Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[Toby.]

If you see a snake consistently recovering low it usually means that they are really bad :/

I agree with t-block

 

[-Ran]

In any match up against Snake it's important to get a lead quickly. The character I feel that can adequately do that as a starter would be Squirtle due to his combo ability vs Snake. If you can get a lead, you're going to find that the Snake is forced to approach. You should be perfectly capable of avoiding grenades to the extent that a Snake is going to be forced to approach. From there, you can break down the levels of approaches.

- Dacus. Seriously. Perfect shield, grab, punished.
- The Fall. For whatever reason Snake is in the air, and he's falling near you. If you hold shield, there's nothing he can do. None of his moves will autocancel.
- The Run. A lot of Snakes do it. They run at you, leaving them with really their worst options. [No tilts.]
- The Walk. Snake is at his strongest here. Tilts, throws, grenades, oh my.
- The Run to Short hop B Reversal. This is what most higher levels Snake players will do, since it closes the distance, drops a mine, and let's them walk forwards. It's more of a 'probe' move.

But alas, most Snakes are going to do the Run, Fall, and Dacus, meaning you should completely be able to deny their approaches. Funny thought, but if a Snake short hops, you should just water gun him away for lawls randomly. It'll mess up the B-reversal approach, and the spacing of his grenades.

 

[T-block]

Thanks for that, Ran Iji <3 Looks like I'm still not being patient enough.

What do you suggest we do if they know to use the last two you listed? Even if I know how they're approaching, I'll probably still end up eating f-tilts lol.

 

[Kith]

What usually works for me is making sure youre in the right position. Snake is at his worse when he's above you (obviously) and when he on the ledge. Squirtle is really good at pushing people to the ledge (ftilt, watergun). From there you just gotta be patient. If Snake is landing towards you, wait for him to throw out an attack. If he does, punish. If not, grab him and throw him up again. If he starts walkin slowly again, getting ready to use his tilts, run and water gun him to a ledge. Jut don't **** with his tilts lol

 

[napZzz]

squirtles usually the best to lead off with, I find him the hardest of the 3 to handle as snake. And like ran said, getting a lead forces snake to approach making the match much easier.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Well, guess that kills all hopes of Ivysaur starting... XD Though as the Snake I play is appearantly not that great, think it's best to concede to those who know what they're talking about. Squirtle it is then?

 

[-Ran]

What do you suggest we do if they know to use the last two you listed? Even if I know how they're approaching, I'll probably still end up eating f-tilts lol.

At that point, it's all about baiting an early attack. Flirt with the range of the tilts and grabs to where you can react with a retreating aerial. If Snake is walking to you, walk away. There are so many little movement tricks that every character can do to throw off the spacing of their opponent. If every time a Snake walks at you, and you walk away, what do you think he's going to do?

Run.

 

[Tesh]

That video with the ragequit. Squirtle's uthrow has a big enough hitbox to cancel out mortars? Can ivy or charizard so that with any of their throws or pummels? Also how did that grab from snake at the end miss?

Is that snake's grab having a lacking height or does charizards hurtbox shrink amazingly on jab 2? Does hitting a wing never count in any case? for that matter? Since his arms didn't touch his head or shoulders.

 

[Asa]

At that point, it's all about baiting an early attack. Flirt with the range of the tilts and grabs to where you can react with a retreating aerial. If Snake is walking to you, walk away. There are so many little movement tricks that every character can do to throw off the spacing of their opponent. If every time a Snake walks at you, and you walk away, what do you think he's going to do?

Run.

If we walked out of snake's tilt range, won't he just sit back and grenade camp instead of running?

 

[Kith]

If we walked out of snake's tilt range, won't he just sit back and grenade camp instead of running?

Watergun him to the ledge then. From there you can punish most of his options and condition him not to grenade camp

 

[Tin Man]

I assume this is the snake matchup thread, it would be tolate for me to add anything here so when will this matchup be done?

 

[Kith]

That video with the ragequit. Squirtle's uthrow has a big enough hitbox to cancel out mortars? Can ivy or charizard so that with any of their throws or pummels? Also how did that grab from snake at the end miss?

Is that snake's grab having a lacking height or does charizards hurtbox shrink amazingly on jab 2? Does hitting a wing never count in any case? for that matter? Since his arms didn't touch his head or shoulders.

The throw I used to cancel out the mortar was f-throw, not up-throw. I don't know for sure if up-throw will do it, but f-throw will for sure. I don't know if Ivy or Zard will do it, but I can't see a good reason why they should do it, even if they could. I do it with Squirtle because most Snakes will DACUS to the end of a stage (towards you), if you've been hit off the stage. They underestimate Squirtle's ability to fast-fall, and DI under the mortar, kick 'em in the face, and then follow up with a grab, f-throw, or shield the mortar. It's pretty safe.

About Snake's grab with Charizard, I'm looking into that more, because for some reason I'm not getting punished much for jabbing a shield if I space it right. I can't say anything with certainty though, because logic tells me they can just f-tilt me lol, but I wanna take a look.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I assume this is the snake matchup thread, it would be tolate for me to add anything here so when will this matchup be done?

This is not the match-up thread. This thread is used to discuss which Pokemon to lead with versus the other characters. Supposedly, only leads should be considered, and though the rest of the match-up might be used as a reference or proof, it is not the focus of this thread.

 

[tankzortz]

for zard, wouldnt it be better to not use flamethrower against snake?

 

[T-block]

As long as you're not being an idiot about it, why not? It stops grenades a safe distance away from you for one thing.

 

[tankzortz]

it always seems i use flamethrower aginst snake and it can seem to never stop the nades from damaging zard..

 

[Bomber7]

it always seems i use flamethrower aginst snake and it can seem to never stop the nades from damaging zard..

just got to do some spacing when using it.

 

[Laos Oman]

Angle's important too. You want to hit the grenade as early as you can, so if he tosses it high, aim high.

More on-topic: I believe we all agree that Squirtle makes a good starter. What's the consensus on Ivysaur? I find that as long as you switch out early (50% or so), Ivy makes a pretty good starter.

 

[Kith]

Maybe, but Squirtle for sure would be the better starter.

 

[Zigsta]

The main reason Ivysaur's not that good of a starter is that it puts you farthest away from using Squirtle. There are some matchups that Squirtle doesn't do as well in, and if you feel confident in starting Ivysaur, go for it.

 

[T-block]

Nah, start Squirtle for sure. I've tried to make Ivy-start work, but it hasn't happened yet. Getting a gimp is important, and Squirtle is the most likely to do that, so we want to maximize our time with him.

 

[Bomber7]

like I said at the beginning and I'm glad another person found out what I did. Ivy doesn't do that well against Snake. It would be best to stick to Squirtle. You got many options with him to combat snake.

 

[Dre89]

I always thought that using Ivy at low percents would always be bad because he get get gimped so early.

I know I'm not an expert or anything, but the other reason why I thought Ivy would be bad is because I'm pretty sure his only decent move (bair) is unsafe on shield and will get you tilted.

I just don't see what advantages there would be starting Ivy over Squirtle to be honest.

 

[Laos Oman]

I always thought that using Ivy at low percents would always be bad because he get get gimped so early.

I know I'm not an expert or anything, but the other reason why I thought Ivy would be bad is because I'm pretty sure his only decent move (bair) is unsafe on shield and will get you tilted.

I just don't see what advantages there would be starting Ivy over Squirtle to be honest.

Yeah, Squirtle's probably better. But if you play Ivysaur defensively, rack up some damage and switch to Charizard in time, you can KO Snake before he KOs you (emphasis on "can", since it's by no means guaranteed). Then you simply tank Charizard until Snake gets the KO.

You'll have a completely fresh Squirtle at 0%, while Snake is already weakened on his second stock. You also have a fresh Ivysaur by the time Squirtle gets KO'd or fatigued, and Charizard will also have plenty of time to refresh.

If Ivysaur or Charizard should get gimped, Squirtle is available to level the playing field. And by the time Squirtle gets into the danger zone, Ivysaur will have recovered from any fatigue built up as the starter.

If you start as Squirtle, and Ivysaur or Charizard kicks the bucket too early, you'll either have a 0% Charizard while Squirtle is recovering (bad) or a fatigued Squirtle (very bad). The first scenario is bad because it makes you switch to either a fatigued Squirtle or a Squirtle at high damage.

Both starters have their risks. Ivysaur is riskier in the early stages of the match, but the rest of the match becomes much safer, and if you do get that first stock off of Snake, the rest of the match will practically be secured. Squirtle has a higher chance of getting an early lead, but it also gives Snake a better chance of mounting a comeback.

I guess you could call it a matter of preference. All I know is that starting with Ivy has proven effective for me so far, as has starting with Squirtle. The best option is probably Squirtle, but that doesn't mean Ivysaur isn't an option. Much like how you can still enjoy lemon-flavoured ice cream, even though cinnamon is obviously a better flavour.

Final note: don't worry too much about Ivysaur getting gimped. Good DI and proper use of f-air, b-air and Razor Leaf will save you until 50~60%, and that's if Snake even gets you off-stage in the first place.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Much like how you can still enjoy lemon-flavoured ice cream, even though cinnamon is obviously a better flavour.

I agreed with everything except this. Cinnamon and ice cream should never mix.

I'm glad someone else is proposing Ivysaur as a starter, and especially glad they presented different reasoning as well (Match momentum.). As I said before, I feel starting Squirtle is a waste of Ivysaur's ability to rack up some serious damage on heavy characters at low%'s quickly and efficiently. Squirtle has a much easier time getting the gimp, but if you miss that, you're not in a happy place.

All for Squirtle as a good starter, Ivysaur as a potential started.

 

[Kith]

I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing why Ivysaur could be a better starter than squirtle. It seems to me that if you start as squirtle and get the gimp, and then die and bring out Ivysaur, that doesn't hinder Ivysaur's ability to rack up damage. If you're talking about bullet seed, then I might understand, but bullet seeding snake too much is dangerous...F-smash to the face if he powershields it lol.

 

[Chuckles_KSU]

Not saying Ivysaur makes a better lead than Squirtle, just that she's viable. It just requires a different strategy. I think Ivy set's the stage a little better for the late game, though is a bit riskier in the early game.

 

[Bomber7]

I still think that Ivy is a little too risky to start. At least with a character like Snake, you will have Squirtle build your momentum quickly allowing you to throw in Ivy at any time.

 

[T-block]

You might be able to make a case for Ivy being viable. You won't be able to make a case for Ivy being more viable than Squirtle though. That's all it comes down to.

 

[Kith]

What T-block said

 

[Steeler]

ivysaur might be more viable if your squirtle sucks, i guess

 

[Bomber7]

It really is hard to say seeing that we have really no ivy starters

 

[Katakiri]

It really is hard to say seeing that we have really no ivy starters

L
O
L

Allooooow.....ME!


I LOVE Ivy vs Snake! (until about 95%)

Ivysaur wrecks any camping attempts Snake might try and does it in a fashion that few characters can match. Razor Leaf will not only block his grenades, but it will force ones near his feet and in his hand to explode even if he shields the leaf.

If a grenade gets through your "Freakin' Shield of Leaves", just time a jump before the grenade goes off and continue throwing your Razor Leaves while doing it.

A small note:
After you use an Aerial Razor Leaf you can dash in and follow-up with a grab. (It's not guaranteed though) But it gets predicable fast so limit yourself.


When he inevitably comes in for some close combat, it's all about timing and that's because of one simple fact:
Ivysaur's Jab and F-Tilt OUT-RANGE ALL SNAKES TILTS
Ivy's F-Tilt does require a bit of timing and near perfect spacing.

I couldn't count how many times a Snake has taken 20 to 30 damage from trying to F-Tilt me out of my Jab.

As soon as you see Snake stop trying to run into it, you should stop and make a little more space because he's going to do one of three things:
1. He's going to try to D-Air you.
2. He's going to throw a Grenade at you.
3. He's going to Dash Attack/Mortar Slide at you.

The third option is the smartest one, but I guarantee most Snakes are not going to know that Dash Attack can get through it. But luckily, a Snake about to Dash Attack comes with a huge neon sign saying that he's about to do it.


I would really advise you to switch to Charizard after you get to about 90% just to stock tank. I should add that Charizard's Flamethrower and Rock Smash work wonders at building up damage when he's at high percents like that, because I guarantee that Snake will be trying to get in close to hit you with a tilt.

If you can't get away from Snake and you're stuck as Ivysaur at high percents, the best thing to do is just throw Razor Leaves and Jabs out and go for a Bullet Seed if Snake's at a low percent. (Hopefully on his second stock)

Snake might try to Mortar Slide to the edge if he knocks you offstage. If that happens, you'll want to "pull a Snake" and hit the mortar if he edge hogs you.

_______________

So IMO the starters from best to worst are:

1. Ivysaur
Ivysaur should be your first choice since she's very safe fighting Snake as I explained above. And keep in mind that she's just a starter so you shouldn't have to worry about her getting KO'd, especially since Snake should be taking damage much faster than you will. Have Charizard stock tank.

2 .Charizard
Charizard should be your second choice, especially on some counter-pick stages. His grab range is good enough to grab some of Snake's attack OoS. Flamethrower lets him stock tank fairly well, and he doesn't have too much of a problem getting back onstage as long as you recover high or low. (Snake's B-Air is a threat at stage level) But he runs fairly even with Snake on neutral stages, whereas Ivysaur may even have an advantage before KO%s. But Charizard is a very solid choice.

3. Squirtle
Squirtle does seem like an odd choice to be the worst starter since he runs circles around Snake. But the problem with Squirtle in this match-up is that, while he can avoid Snake forever, he can't safely attack him. Squirtle get so out-ranged by Snake that he literally has no SAFE offensive options. Also, at high percents, you're NOT going to want to switch to Ivysaur. Add that to the fact that Squirtle's the 2nd lightest character in Brawl and you have what I call the Jigglypuff Complex. Jungle Japes is the only stage where Squirtle is a good idea to start with since Snake can never hit him. Sorry Squirtle, I love ya, but you just lack the options to tango with Snake.

_________

Don't ever let me catch you saying there's no Ivy starters here again.

 

[Bomber7]

interesting.

 

[Toby.]

I disagree about a number of things.

But now I'm going to go eat cake.

I'll be back.

But firstly let me just say that you lost quite a bit of credibility when you said:

I couldn't count how many times a Snake has taken 20 to 30 damage from trying to F-Tilt me out of my Jab.

Ivysaur is really great against snakes who dont know the matchup, because they do dumb stuff. If they are stupid enough to be taking anywhere NEAR 20 to 30% damage from JAB, then you really shouldn't be using them as a measure of the matchup.

 

[T-block]

I LOVE Ivy vs Snake! (until about 95%)

Ivysaur wrecks any camping attempts Snake might try and does it in a fashion that few characters can match. Razor Leaf will not only block his grenades, but it will force ones near his feet and in his hand to explode even if he shields the leaf.

If a grenade gets through your "Freakin' Shield of Leaves", just time a jump before the grenade goes off and continue throwing your Razor Leaves while doing it.

It's not all that simple - sure you can handle it if all Snake does is sit back and chuck grenades, but Snake doesn't have to be afraid of moving in on Ivysaur. His DACUS can easily catch you if you're just throwing out leaves. It's also really easy to powershield the leaves, so he could always just walk towards you and and powershield, and you'll have to do something else.

When he inevitably comes in for some close combat, it's all about timing and that's because of one simple fact:
Ivysaur's Jab and F-Tilt OUT-RANGE ALL SNAKES TILTS
Ivy's F-Tilt does require a bit of timing and near perfect spacing.

I couldn't count how many times a Snake has taken 20 to 30 damage from trying to F-Tilt me out of my Jab.

Umm...f-tilt is not safe at all. I'm pretty sure if you f-tilt Snake can just stay out of range, then walk forward and f-tilt when you're in the move's cooldown. And if he shields it, you're definitely going to take a tilt to the face..

If you can't get away from Snake and you're stuck as Ivysaur at high percents, the best thing to do is just throw Razor Leaves and Jabs out and go for a Bullet Seed if Snake's at a low percent. (Hopefully on his second stock)

You're approaching this matchup wrong... you really can't afford to do risky things here, given his insane damage-racking ability and high KO power. I don't even use Bullet Seed in this matchup unless i'm 100% sure it'll connect. As Kith said earlier, if he powershields it he can get an f-smash off, which will kill at stupidly low percents.

3. Squirtle
Squirtle does seem like an odd choice to be the worst starter since he runs circles around Snake. But the problem with Squirtle in this match-up is that, while he can avoid Snake forever, he can't safely attack him. Squirtle get so out-ranged by Snake that he literally has no SAFE offensive options. Also, at high percents, you're NOT going to want to switch to Ivysaur. Add that to the fact that Squirtle's the 2nd lightest character in Brawl and you have what I call the Jigglypuff Complex. Jungle Japes is the only stage where Squirtle is a good idea to start with since Snake can never hit him. Sorry Squirtle, I love ya, but you just lack the options to tango with Snake.

Read some of the discussion in this thread to see Squirtle's options on Snake. It's different than fighting most other characters at Squirtle, so maybe that's why you're thinking he's not the best choice?

 

[Kith]

Ivysaur wrecks any camping attempts Snake might try and does it in a fashion that few characters can match. Razor Leaf will not only block his grenades, but it will force ones near his feet and in his hand to explode even if he shields the leaf.

Like Toby said, this works against Snake's that don't know the match up. Snakes can actually pull a grenade, shield drop it, and safely crouch under our leaves. Our "Shield of Leaves" is actually pretty penetrable.

After you use an Aerial Razor Leaf you can dash in and follow-up with a grab. (It's not guaranteed though) But it gets predicable fast so limit yourself.

This I do agree with, and I do quite a bit vs. Snakes.

When he inevitably comes in for some close combat, it's all about timing and that's because of one simple fact:
Ivysaur's Jab and F-Tilt OUT-RANGE ALL SNAKES TILTS
Ivy's F-Tilt does require a bit of timing and near perfect spacing.

The problem with this is that, although Jab and F-tilt may out range all of his tils, they are not safe on shield. If a Snake learns how long he has to shield your f-tilt before he can punish, you're going to stop doing that real soon.

I guarantee that Snake will be trying to get in close to hit you with a tilt.

Again, this is assuming that the Snake doesn't know the match up. If he did, he would be trying to grab-downthrow you. And Charizard will be *****. Charizard IMO is the worst in this match up just because of that down throw and his in-ability to get past Snake's grenade camp.

3. Squirtle
Squirtle does seem like an odd choice to be the worst starter since he runs circles around Snake. But the problem with Squirtle in this match-up is that, while he can avoid Snake forever, he can't safely attack him.

Squirtle has many options against Snake, best of which being water gun. Water gun him to the ledge and react to what he does. Up-throw to follow ups. Get him in the air and he's yours to toy with. If you let the Snake waltz around, un..watergunned on the stage, you're doing something wrong lol.

That's all I have to say about that lol

 

[Bomber7]

Plus if you know Snake in general, you know that a good Snake will think on his feet and take full advantage of his trap laying abilities(even if it means shield dropping a grenade). Snake has a pressure game and if you aren't paying attention at least 100% then those fire based attacks with alot of knock back will destroy Ivy plus since they are fire based attacks, that is even more knock back thrown against Ivy.

~my thoughts.

 

[T-block]

Also, Snake has no reason to rush against Charizard. Charizard is actually forced to play very defensively because of d-throw. If your Rock Smash gets powershielded and you get grabbed, Charizard is in for a lot of hurt. He also has a harder time getting around grenades than Squirtle or Ivysaur do, so a Snake should have no problems with camping you out. Remember we have fatigue against us too.

And this concept of "Ivysaur starter" is pretty stupid. Isn't this a Choose your Starter topic? ._.

 

[Toby.]

FYI snake can just ftilt the razor leaves to cancel them out. Mucho easy.