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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
Toby.
Smash Master
Objection!
I know this matchup very, very, very well.
But all that knowledge is pretty unnecessary in a starter thread like this.
Start squirtle. Ivysaur is ****ed in this matchup, and zard does a lot worse than you would think. We can't shield grab wolf's bair.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
You play against a top Wolf, don't you Toby? I seem to remember reading on the Wolf boards that Charizard has a guaranteed Rock Smash out of jab lock on Wolf and that the boards reported that after seeing it on your computer when your Wolf friend was over. 
MaTA
Smash Ace
I do really well starting out with charizard. the hardest thing is getting inside of the lasers. flamethrower is great and charizard can take a good amount of damage too. Wolf is going to try a lot of bairs so predicting them is good and countering with fairs.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
TOBY is bad.
And smart and GOOD.
He is just a whiny ***** sometimes.
MISO TOBY.
it beats everything. sorta.
Zard does good here, so does Ivy, This matchup is fun.
WE have SILLY COMBOS on WOLF.
DI his smashes and hes not scary.
HE IS HELLA GOOD THOUGH.
And smart and GOOD.
He is just a whiny ***** sometimes.
MISO TOBY.
it beats everything. sorta.
Zard does good here, so does Ivy, This matchup is fun.
WE have SILLY COMBOS on WOLF.
DI his smashes and hes not scary.
HE IS HELLA GOOD THOUGH.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
squirtle is the best to start off with against wolf, he's faster than wolf and has about the same priority, wolfs bair wall is harder to use on squirtle cause of his size and weight. On the other hand wolf gets wrecked because of his weight and squirts utilt tricksies as well as his aerials. on the ground wolf will run circles around you though, only his fsmash can be DI'd to any extent, dsmash will destroy squirtle at anything higher than 100% and upsmash oos is tough to contend with.
ivy and zard dont really have anything on wolf sadly, both get combo'd to no end by bair and neither one has the priority or speed to take him on in the air or on ground, zard is easily better than ivy against wolf though thanks to his weight and power
ivy and zard dont really have anything on wolf sadly, both get combo'd to no end by bair and neither one has the priority or speed to take him on in the air or on ground, zard is easily better than ivy against wolf though thanks to his weight and power
Toby.
Smash Master
Ok so i just woke up. I'm quite tired.
the jab lock thing is SUPER HARD to land.
flamethrower is not great.
no miles no.
nooooooooo
and yeah i play against the best wolf in australia quite a bit, for what it's worth. I've also studied the matchup a lot.
Ivy and zard are both slower with generally inferior range. Zard cannot jab wolf because wolf is too heavy and falls too quickly, allowing him to jab or shine us out of our jab. This reduces our close range options a lot, and means that are next fastest attacks aare grab (frame 6) and dtilt (frame 8). This is very bad. Wolf beats us in the air, can bair through rock smash and fair, is faster and is super good at avoiding flamthrower thanks to crazy aerial movement.
Ivysaur. On shield wolf can punish all out tilts with dsmash, ftilt and fsmash. He also gets a free grab from ftilt which is most likely a guaranteed kill if done from the edge. If we tech it I''m not sure about frame advantage, but we're still in a lot of trouble. We have nothing that can pressure wolf AT ALL. Bullet seed is ****, good players DI that. In the air we get *****, on the ground he is plain faster, with extremely similar range. He also does more damage, and has superior knockback qualities (ie we have too many moves that dont send him horizontally enough for the gimp)
Wolf can also camp us super well because he is FASTER than ivysaur and charizard. Since we won't normally be beating his retreating bair if they space it right, he can run away all day until we're fatigued. At this point pretty much all our kill options are inferior to his standard spacing. All he has to do is space ivysaur from the ground instead of the air and he's fine.
Seriously guys. Its quite bad.
Squirtle has issues too.
the jab lock thing is SUPER HARD to land.
flamethrower is not great.
no miles no.
nooooooooo
and yeah i play against the best wolf in australia quite a bit, for what it's worth. I've also studied the matchup a lot.
Ivy and zard are both slower with generally inferior range. Zard cannot jab wolf because wolf is too heavy and falls too quickly, allowing him to jab or shine us out of our jab. This reduces our close range options a lot, and means that are next fastest attacks aare grab (frame 6) and dtilt (frame 8). This is very bad. Wolf beats us in the air, can bair through rock smash and fair, is faster and is super good at avoiding flamthrower thanks to crazy aerial movement.
Ivysaur. On shield wolf can punish all out tilts with dsmash, ftilt and fsmash. He also gets a free grab from ftilt which is most likely a guaranteed kill if done from the edge. If we tech it I''m not sure about frame advantage, but we're still in a lot of trouble. We have nothing that can pressure wolf AT ALL. Bullet seed is ****, good players DI that. In the air we get *****, on the ground he is plain faster, with extremely similar range. He also does more damage, and has superior knockback qualities (ie we have too many moves that dont send him horizontally enough for the gimp)
Wolf can also camp us super well because he is FASTER than ivysaur and charizard. Since we won't normally be beating his retreating bair if they space it right, he can run away all day until we're fatigued. At this point pretty much all our kill options are inferior to his standard spacing. All he has to do is space ivysaur from the ground instead of the air and he's fine.
Seriously guys. Its quite bad.
Squirtle has issues too.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
you play against tedeth? he's a good wolf XD awesome guy too
Toby.
Smash Master
Oh and yeah about that rock smash zigsta. It's guaranteed against the whole cast, its just super hard to force a get up with zards jab.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Toby.
Smash Master
Rock smash only comes out in 3 frames if we are countering something. Its our most unsafe option at that range.
But I'll give you upsmash. Silly me.
But I'll give you upsmash. Silly me.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Silly you indeed.
tedeth
Smash Master
For god's sake start with Squirtle.
Toby.
Smash Master
i know rite.
Goldenadept
Smash Lord
in any sort of high level play squirtle really is PT's only choice for playing against wolf, once you've become fatigued or are ko'd zard isnt too bad, but ivysaur will get trashed, you're probably better off just trying to wait it out until you can unleash squirtle again
MaTA
Smash Ace
ivy isn't to bad... just a little slower in the air. bullet seed will **** him hard core though.
Toby.
Smash Master
Only a little slower? They are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum. Wolf is 4th fastest, and Ivysaur is 4th slowest.
Bullet seed doesn't **** hardcore. Good players DI it and take minimal (0-10) damage. Not scary at all.
Choosing Your Starter: YOSHI
Current Discussion has now fallen upon Yoshi.
Suggested starter: Ivysaur
My thoughts are that starting with Ivysaur would not be a bad option, you could fight against Yoshi in case you are trying to be camped by eggs. Also I would think that a recovering Yoshi is a vulnerable Yoshi which would make for a perfect chance for a devastating punish. I also thing that Squirtle has a possibility of doing good here just because he's quick and effective in most match-ups. When I play random, I occasionally get Yoshi so I'm fairly familiar with him and from experience I'm basing my thoughts on. Also the only bad experience I've ever had with Yoshi is Sir Orion's yoshi online, though that was me not being able to get past being spaced by someone who is good at spacing.
Current Discussion has now fallen upon Yoshi.
Suggested starter: Ivysaur
My thoughts are that starting with Ivysaur would not be a bad option, you could fight against Yoshi in case you are trying to be camped by eggs. Also I would think that a recovering Yoshi is a vulnerable Yoshi which would make for a perfect chance for a devastating punish. I also thing that Squirtle has a possibility of doing good here just because he's quick and effective in most match-ups. When I play random, I occasionally get Yoshi so I'm fairly familiar with him and from experience I'm basing my thoughts on. Also the only bad experience I've ever had with Yoshi is Sir Orion's yoshi online, though that was me not being able to get past being spaced by someone who is good at spacing.
T-block
B2B TST
Make eggs, throw eggs.
Toby.
Smash Master
Yoshi is an annoying ****.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
He's so weird to fight. I can't remember what guarantees he has on Squirtle from grab release. Squirtle racks up damage nicely, but Yoshi's grabs really hurt us here. Ivysaur won't be getting grab released to spike thanks to his tether, but Ivysaur will have trouble KOing Yoshi. Charizard stock tanks as usual.
I dunno. I've started as all three on different occasions, and I'm really not sure which one serves best.
I dunno. I've started as all three on different occasions, and I'm really not sure which one serves best.
Toby.
Smash Master
Yoshi gets a spike and probably an up smash. Oh and a regrab.
Toby.
Smash Master
Squirtle loses in the air, is outranged on the ground and has to deal with a grab that leads to a guaranteed death by spike starting from about 50%. The grab hitbox is also out for 10 frames, so its quite good at punishing landing lag, catching spotdodges etc. It also comes out faster than ivysaur's grab, and has longer range.
Ivysaur is ok but is slower in the air, both in terms of movement and attack speed. Also gets gimped pretty badly due to yoshis bair and dair.
Charizard is ok.
And the egg is actually a pretty good projectile.
Ivysaur is ok but is slower in the air, both in terms of movement and attack speed. Also gets gimped pretty badly due to yoshis bair and dair.
Charizard is ok.
And the egg is actually a pretty good projectile.
PokemonMasterIRL
Smash Master
Can I quote you on that and sig it?
T-block
B2B TST
Ivy air releases way too high for Yoshi to do anything. I don't think he has anything on Charizard either, but I could be wrong. The Yoshi I play doesn't go for the spike, so I can actually use Squirtle, but I do get grabbed a lot lol. Ignoring the grab for a bit, the matchup isn't that bad. You're not completely beat in the air, but if you stay grounded more you can put up a good fight. Remember that he can't really use his shield, although jab out of spot dodge is pretty fast.
Anyways, I do like Ivysaur. The usual Ivysaur stuff seems to work pretty well against Yoshi, as long as you don't play stupid and like...try to approach. Having a lead helps...
I dunno, I'm bad at this matchup. >_>
Anyways, I do like Ivysaur. The usual Ivysaur stuff seems to work pretty well against Yoshi, as long as you don't play stupid and like...try to approach. Having a lead helps...
I dunno, I'm bad at this matchup. >_>
Magik0722
Smash Champion
Start with ivysuar
I barely trade games when i play bwett
I barely trade games when i play bwett
Bwett
Smash Ace
You'll have to elaborate on barely trade games lol, it could have many different meanings =P
You want either Ivysaur or Charizard. They are the best against Yoshi. Ivysaur's bair and razer leaf make it difficult to approach or egg. The only bad thing is that Yoshi has an easier time keeping Ivysaur offstage. Charizard is good as well. Even though Yoshi can grab release, he can't grab release into anything other than another grab iirc. Yoshi's pummel does crap damage so besides decay, it's no big deal at all. Charizard can do massive damage and has the ability to easily break our DJ heavy armor with a sweetspot fair. Along with that, Yoshi has a hard time killing and Charizard can be a tank at times. The only problem you would have are large amounts of grabbing and egg camping.
You want either Ivysaur or Charizard. They are the best against Yoshi. Ivysaur's bair and razer leaf make it difficult to approach or egg. The only bad thing is that Yoshi has an easier time keeping Ivysaur offstage. Charizard is good as well. Even though Yoshi can grab release, he can't grab release into anything other than another grab iirc. Yoshi's pummel does crap damage so besides decay, it's no big deal at all. Charizard can do massive damage and has the ability to easily break our DJ heavy armor with a sweetspot fair. Along with that, Yoshi has a hard time killing and Charizard can be a tank at times. The only problem you would have are large amounts of grabbing and egg camping.
Toby.
Smash Master
Delta-cod
Smash Hero
There's that name searchin'
Anyways, as a Yoshi main, I'd say going with Ivy is the best bet. No silly grab releases on Ivysaur. Also, it's more difficult to camp Ivy, though it is easier gimp. Squirtle gets grab release *****, Charizard gets camped to hell. It's also possible to kill him earlier off by throwing an egg while jumping off stage for an edgeguard, then following up either the hitstun or the airdodge for a kill, though this applies to nearly every character in the game except those with exceptional recovery options. It just means Charizard can't tank for as long imo.
MaTA
Smash Ace
Well usually I'll start charizard like everyone else ha. even though he is a bigger chance to get hit he can take the damage and he can't be CG. Flame thrower is good to hold him off and if he throws some eggs you should have enough time to block. I'd say the match up is almost even in my opinion with chraizard. Squirtle is good if you dont get grabbed. I'vy is good as well and can play just as good defensively as yoshi.
Bwett
Smash Ace
Meh, so I have a flaw lol
So all we really got is that Ivy can't be gay grabbed by Yoshi? Other than that all I can throw in is that Ivy can space. How much can we really expect to get out of his starting discussion? doesn't look like too much atm.
MaTA
Smash Ace
I swear charizard could get out of it though...rocksmash? Usually i'll just watch out for squirtle getting grabbed.