Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

[TheReflexWonder]

: How do you get in and separate them? That's a tough part of this MU...

: What do you mean by "limiting Ice Climbers' movement"? Yeah, the grab is the best separation tool, but as you said, it's very risky, so when do we have to use it? I usually try a grab after a Razor Leaf, but if it misses, I'm dead... They'll get in pretty quick, so I don't know what should I do to separate them when they get close and I can't retreat...

: They'll not approach and throw IBs at you, if you FT them, it'll be stale + you'll eventually get fatigued... If the FT get read they'll roll behind and grab. And you're not gonna rack up many damage with it if they don't dash towards it or something... :/

This isn't a matchup thread.

That said, Squirtle's poking is limited to tilts and the occasional B-Air or Jab. You need the grab until middling percents, unless the Ice Climbers player starts using Blizzard, which you can stop with Water Gun (it pushes them back a great deal if they're not able to run against it).

Ivysaur's shorthop B-Air covers a large space around you. You want that space to be no-man's-land; they should not feel comfortable being there, but they have to be there in order to get their grab on you. B-Air has the advantage of not being grabbed if they shield it, which is why it's your go-to option. Otherwise, use multi-hit moves to throw them off in general (shield-grabbing as ICs doesn't work so well when both Ice Climbers have to shield multiple hits from D-Tilt, B-Air, or F-Tilt). Dash Attack works alright at mid percents to get them in the air if you expect them to spotdodge, but is risky. Either way, the most important part for Ivysaur is not to separate them; it's to keep them at bay, which Ivysaur can do while preventing the opponent from camping (as Razor Leaf beats their camping).

Who cares if you get fatigued? You don't win this matchup as Charizard by killing them off the top or anything. You separate them and then F-Air or D-Air Nana off-stage, or, alternatively, maximize damage with shorthop Rock Smash so all the shards hit. Fatigued or not, they'll do their job. They aren't able to roll through Flamethrower unless it's spaced very poorly; you're not trying to get close with it, you're trying to prevent them from being able to get through. Aim to hit the far part of it.

For Ivysaur and Charizard, most of the match is a battle of attrition. Stop thinking in terms of racking up damage quickly and ways to separate them easily, as the opportunities are usually few and far between. What you want to do is keep them out long enough where your pokes get their damage high enough to be able to separate them with weak moves that don't require much commitment. That's when you go in for the KO on Nana.

 

[Myollnir]

Thanks for helping!

I know this isn't a MU thread, but talking about the matchup without giong in-depth can help to find which pokémon is the best starter...

I kinda like starting with Ivysaur because of his Razor Leaf/multi-hit jab/tilts/b-air and his ability to kill Nana off the top with powerful smashes or aerials when the ICs are separated, but he lacks the mobility to be really effective.
Do you b-air immediatly after pressing jump or just before landing? And if they shield it, what are the best options to remain as safe as possible?

I also like Charizard but he doesn't have much except the FT (and I thought the opponent could roll when we land with it, sorry) but if we get a grab near the edge, B-throw + F-air + D-air kills Nana at 0 iirc. RS is really powerful if we're 100% sure we're gonna land it, as well as Fly on Nana. Tilts are really really unsafe on block, so they're not a good option in this MU. Jabbing the IBs can refresh your other moves btw. So yeah, imo, the MU is FT until they make a mistake, grab Nana, kill her and **** Popo (or switch to Squirtle and try to time him out?). If your FT is empty, use your multiple jumps (D-air over a platform can surprise them if they're below this platform, just like Ivysaur's). If they try to camp with IBs, Jab them so you refresh your FT.

So I don't know which strategy is the best between :
- Stock 1 : , Stock 2 : , Stock 3 : -> ( -> if necessary) OR if you have the stock lead with + you kill Nana , Stock 2 : -> (try to time out), Stock 3 : (-> )
- Stock 1 : , Stock 2 : -> , Stock 3 :

Btw, planking as / can be useful if necessary if you need to refresh the previous pokémon (respectively / ) before doing a sacrificial switch (you're guaranteed to switch, as 's DownB doesn't care about the RCO lag (and even the 2 (soft landing) or 4 (hard) landing lag frames if we don't have the RCO ? I'm not sure. So with a good timing to have as much invincibility frames as you can, drop off the ledge, DJ AD to the ground + switch).

And Reflex, how do you mash so fast? @_@

 

[Bomber7]

Bump.

Any other thoughts or comments before I start thinking about moving on?

 

[Bomber7]

Ignore. Accidental double post.

 

[Myollnir]

I think we're good. So Charizard is the best starter overall.

 

[Bomber7]

It's still pretty hard to judge because people have put up valid info for all 3, however this is for the "best" starter.

I'm not promising an immediate update due to school coming to a close as well as Thanksgiving break coming up. I'll try to update it over the Thanksgiving break.

Thanks for the input as always guys.

lol sweet grabbed the 100th page. I feel mildly accomplished.

 

[Karnu]

Why is this thread not stickeid?

I'v been looking for this thread, it needs love.

Also, Bomber. If you make another could I help? I'v really come to understand some MU's and I feel that some pokemon shouldn't be listed as a starter for a certain characters and some should be up there as a starter for certaincharacters, its just my opinion from experience but I feel they are reasonable.

 

[Bomber7]

Why is this thread not stickeid?

I'v been looking for this thread, it needs love.

Also, Bomber. If you make another could I help? I'v really come to understand some MU's and I feel that some pokemon shouldn't be listed as a starter for a certain characters and some should be up there as a starter for certaincharacters, its just my opinion from experience but I feel they are reasonable.

Glad you posted in here, I totally forgot about it being so busy and all. I still will be busy since I just started school, but I'll make sure I make note to update this thread this weekend while I'm doing other tasks.

As far as changing who our starter should be for previous discussions, you'll have to wait until we get through going over everyone a second time (which will be called open discussion). I just want to keep everything organized is all. I hope you understand. When we finish and I reopen the open discussion in case someone wants to try and repeal a judgement, feel free to present your case and evidence (lol sorry, this isn't a court room, but you get the point).

 

[Karnu]

Glad you posted in here, I totally forgot about it being so busy and all. I still will be busy since I just started school, but I'll make sure I make note to update this thread this weekend while I'm doing other tasks.

As far as changing who our starter should be for previous discussions, you'll have to wait until we get through going over everyone a second time (which will be called open discussion). I just want to keep everything organized is all. I hope you understand. When we finish and I reopen the open discussion in case someone wants to try and repeal a judgement, feel free to present your case and evidence (lol sorry, this isn't a court room, but you get the point).

Haha you're welcome, I can't believe this is not a sticky :I

That is all fine, could you VM me when you're going to reopen the discussion?

 

[Bomber7]

I'll let you know when open discussion is back up.

 

[Bomber7]

Choose Your Starter: Ike Take Two

After a promise made a long time ago, I finally got around to updating this thread. Sorry about the wait folks. I'll still be working on the OP as we speak, but for now I figure it'd be best to open up the next discussion. Here's what we have from last time. Feel free to say if it looks right, wrong, needs tweaking, etc. Also, can we get this stickied? It is a pretty important thread. It would be a good thing to have easy access to for those who would be interested in looking at it.


Starter(s): Ivysaur Charizard

Summary:
Ivysaur- It's a very simple reason why it is best start with Ivysaur against Ike. First of all, Ivy can out range Ike very well and since Ike has no ranged attacks, he can't do anything. Second, Ivysaur's move set is great against Ike because he is a heavyweight, racking up damage will be a piece of cake and not to mention you could possibly get a gimp on him. Even though Ike has a pretty long reach with his attacks, there shouldn't be much of a problem with Ivy's spacing capabilities. As another plus, if you need the urge to kill or switch Charizard is next in the party.

Charizard- Charizard too has Ike out ranged with his flamethrower. Charizard has more mobility on the ground and has some pretty fast attacks that will come in handy like his down tilt. However, this is a heavyweight battle so we cautious and try not to get too high in the air or you will be subject to Ike's juggling. Charizard too can get a gimp on Ike or better yet stop an Ike from recovering. When Ike recovers with Either, he has invincible frames until the attack is over, well if you sit there on the ledge and put out your flamethrower, it pushes Ike out just enough to where he won't grab the ledge. This has been a proven fact. If you find yourself in a tight squeeze and you don't want Charizard to be KO'd then switch to Squirtle and let him take the KO and then you will have a fresh Ivysaur to do your bidding. There was some controversy over Squirtle due to Ike's ability to kill him at like 60% and would he be best despite that factor so for now, it's your choice.

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[Ussi]

>Ike has no ranged attacks
-fair

ivysaur is vulnerable to gimps that are set up from bthrow > dash attack at 35ish%+

Flamethrower is SDIable to get right through charizard if bad enough like Mr. Doom.

Aether is not invincible, in fact pretty easy to hit Ike out of it. He only has super armor when the sword is just before to be thrown to when he goes up to grab it. So easy to hit Ike before or after SA frames. charizard can always spike Ike out the apex of his aether.

 

[Rizen]

Flamethrower probably clanks with Aether's blade and pushes it back that way.

 

[ravemaster47]

I haven't played a lot if pt, but iveysaurs razor leaf is a good spacing. I do find it that ike is better in the air vs charizard. Squirtle is probably easiest for ike imo.

 

[theeboredone]

Honestly, Ivysaur would be the easiest to handle. Prior to Zigsta switching to Bowser, and also playing with Nameless Wander, the one I struggled most with was Charizard simply due to his ability to have equivalent spacing methods similar to ours. Retreating F-air, using flame thrower when trying to recover, making a good read so you can land rock smash. On top of that, he's heavy so he takes the longest to kill.

Ike has an easy gimp on Squirtle. Simply get him off stage, and because Squirtle doesn't automatically cling to the edge, Ike can charge eruption and kill/damage him pretty hard.

Ivysaur...never really had trouble getting through any spacing methods.

 

[Bomber7]

I'm not sure how legit this will sound, but when Ike is trying to recover, can't Charizard just use flamethrower on ether and because the flames clank the move, Ike won't grab the stage? I've seen it happen a few times before when I played a few casual Ike players in tournaments.

 

[theeboredone]

Not sure, I've been hit by flame thrower before, and all Ike has to do is re-aether. Furthermore, certain stages like BF and SV allow Ike's sword to extend out further, meaning you will either get hit trying to flame thrower, or you have to shield it. By the time you can get free, Ike is already grabbing the edge.

 

[Ussi]

Besides what Bored mentioned about stage slants.. SDI through flamethrower is completely doable like i said earlier.. Better at SDI = less damage flamethrower does and even increases the chances of Ike punishing with bair

 

[Heartstring]

Yeah, to be fair this is kind of a bad matchup as a whole for you guys. There's the aforementioned Bthrow>DA which would be the bane of ivysaur, Her side-B isn't a good enough projectile to be classed as a real problem. Plus our F-air outranges any of ivysaurs spacing tools.

Squirtle gets hurt because of the aforementioned CG. Unless you're the most slippery squirtle player on the planet, It's going to really hurt you. and there's other things like punishing the Up-b as bored said.

Charizard probably has the easiest time against us, but I would still call it an even matchup.

 

[Blubolouis]

I'm not sure if the thread title really means "who you should start with" or just "who you should play thez most". :I I'll go with the first one.

IMO, Squirtle is the best to start with. It allows you to rack damage pretty fast, and you're at such low percents at the beginning of the match that the CG won't hurt much in terms of %. It could put you offstage though, but since I've never managed to make the eruption thingy work, it's not that big a deal.
You can rack up a ton of damage since Ike is free from 0 to 50%, especially against Squirtle. Get him to around 80%, more if you can and SWITCH. Don't try to actually take the stock, because it will take forever if the Ike is playing cautious. However you'll find yourselves with a fresh ivysaur, with decent killmoves.

Charizard as the first poke isn't the optimal choice. Contrary to Squirtle, he doesn't benefit from the fact that this is the beginning of the match. He's a big and slow target, perfect for Ike's strings at low percents -strings that Squirtle can evade better. However he does pretty good against Ike in general so it's not a terrible choice.

Ivysaur is terrible and WILL suffer from fatigue before ending Ike's stock. She can't get hit by Bthrow>dash attack at very low percents, so why not... You really need to include switching to Charizard for taking the stock in your game plan.


tl:dr : squirtle is good, don't try to kill and switch
charizard is okay, overall
ivy isn't terrible, use charizard switch smartly

 

[Bomber7]

I'm not sure if the thread title really means "who you should start with" or just "who you should play thez most". :I I'll go with the first one.

It does mean who to start with. It's a unique kind of discussion. We do draw info from the MUs to help up determine who is best, but it isn't a MU discussion at all.

 

[Teh Brettster]

Ivysaur is the absolute easiest to fight.

And sure, Ike kills early and has a regrab on Squirtle, but Squirtle is the hardest of the 3 to fight (unless you've got a really solid Charizard, whose grabs, weight, multiple jumps, and Dtilt are useful against Ike).