Charizard Tactical Discussion

[pklucas]

is it stupid to just main charizard? I don't really like either of the other pokemon but charizard may be the most rediculous character in the history of the game. Who care about stale moves. Use one of his other 7 kill moves

 

[Retro Gaming]

He doesn't have that many! ._.

• Rock Smash
• Dtilt
• Ftilt
• Utilt
• Usmash
• Bair
• Fair
• Dair
• Dthrow
• Fly

Owait ^-^"

You can actually probably get by with mostly Ivysaur and Charizard in most matches, but only Charizard is a little tough.

He doesn't care about stale moves but he does kind of care about fatigue + stale moves.

 

[Hydde]

is it stupid to just main charizard? I don't really like either of the other pokemon but charizard may be the most rediculous character in the history of the game. Who care about stale moves. Use one of his other 7 kill moves

well he haslot of killer moves...but are not as easyto connect as let say....GW or toon link...so theyare not supreme like you are putting it :s.

Whats the point in having lots of killers if it takes a whole world to mindgame a good player into them...while other characters just spam in your face until they get u..a la game and watch. That annoys me.

And well IMO is a must to totally master the 3 of them, as each one can help u in different situations. The less effecttive of the 3 is squirt because he has so many difficult match ups,,but even him can be decisive sometimes...as he has good mobility and some dashes to help you.

Lately i have been training with him..and i have to say that is a MUST to learn the Forward hydroplane (the one without pivot). It is just too good to surprise ur enemy, as it goes far and most of the time get them offguard.


Well like i said before.... to ignore the defensive and spamming game of ivysaur, is a like a sin. From the 3, i think he plays thesafestgame,,,and sometimes allows you to rack a lot of damage without getting much punishment.

Also, thereare match ups whichare very tricky for charizard. For example.... the heavy weights...
Charizard IMO cango toe to toe with any of the big guys...but atthe same time.... he risks himself to receive great punishment because of him being a big target. For example...against DDDu can getchaingrabbed until considerable percent....and IMO is just WAY easier to fight with ivysaur and connect some bullet seeds to get insane damage....and at the same time...keeping him away with razor leaves and back air. Then bring up char to finish the job if needed,,,and to stock tank.

U can main him exclusively.. butthere will be matches that will be just WAY harder for you is he doenst get the help of the other pokes.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, obviously we shouldn't main a Pokemon exclusively (until Sakurai gets rid of the fatigue mechanic). Certain do obviously have Kill moves they can spam 'till you die, while others have ones that require some strategy to using them. In general, Charizard is obviously a heavy weight, but I think he may have an easier time than you think Hydde. OK, Obviously Dedede, Snake, and Bowser are above or tied with him (Dedede is obvious, Snake I'm not sure he's even considered a heavyweight, and Bowser is Charizard tweaked), but when we consider other heavy ones, he is typically better. That may be because the group is weighed down by the likes of DK and Ganondorf, but Charizard has some one ups on multiple details (including running speed and especially grab game). Charizard has Kill moves, they're just kinda hard to land and spam.

P.S: Retro, you forgot Fsmash and Dsmash, Although I do get why you might have not included them.

 

[Hydde]

yeh i know..because of that i said he can go toe to toe..... the better example of a difficult fight for him are snake and DDD.... snake having that spam fest metagame and ddd having annoying proyectile, spotdodge and Cgrab,. But yeah im not underestimating char.. is nosurprise that he is considered the most well rounded from the 3.... but what i wanted to say is that he really has TOUGH match ups if he face alone certain foes. Toon link being a typical example.

 

[Charizard92]

OK, some characters that generally get away with big and slow characters will get Charizard too, because being big can be enough to get you and just because you're as fast as Pikachu doesn't mean that you're going to get away from them (you might give them a harder time, but that is more pen and paper than actual practice). However, against MOST big and hefty characters (the group Charizard belongs too if on his own), Charizard will typically win out (Dedede is an obvious one [beats Charizard at his best game], Snake I'm not even sure if he's in that group considering how he is used, and Bowser and Charizard are pretty similar). Outside his own group, Charizard does (or at least should) fair well (obviously not top tier, and we're pushing it if we say high tier, but it's pretty high) and certainly does better than Squirtle (check the match ups).

 

[Retro Gaming]

I'm using Uair a lot more, now. It lingers for a long time. I can Uair an airdodger and still get them when they come out of it.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

yeah, but fly kills better

 

[Charizard92]

Very true indeed.

 

[Onxy]

Fly is garbage.

 

[Toby.]

Fly is garbage.

QFT

Fly leaves you massively open and they can DI out of the initial hits. Plus due to its angles its especially easy to dodge or fastfall to avoid, unless you're right on them.

 

[Knyaguy]

Quick n00b Question: Where do you have to hit to get char's bair to spike?

 

[Charizard92]

I think the wing, but I never really got a spike from it, and it is really weak, so stick with the dair spike.

 

[Bestiarius]

Here's another way to think about Charizard: Bowser on crack.
Compare their specials:
1. Charizard's b-up has way better range than Bowser's.
2. Charizard's neutral b is pretty much the same as Bowser's if used correctly.
3. Charizard's side b does WAY more damage. The only advantage that Bowser's side-b has is that it functions like a grab, so it can't be countered (by the MOVE Counter, I mean).
4. Charizard's down b turns into a speed demon to match faster characters. Bowser's just makes him drop like a stone.

Or, all of Zard's smashes have better range, his jab combo is better, his grabs are freakin' sick, and his aerials (d-air) are insane.

Zard is an offensive powerhouse. F-tilt, f-smash, Rock Smash, and Flamethrower are amazing at pushing opponents back. If you can get them off the edge, d-air spike. If you can't hit them with that or your opponent is amazing at airdodging, just camp on the edge and Flamethrower them until they waste their b-up or until you run out of gas. Just wait for them to get closer and start burning them again. If you can get them off of the edge, they should be dead.

 

[Ryusuta]

Here's another way to think about Charizard: Bowser on crack.

Okay, hold the phone. I have to step in, here. Charizard is decent enough, but he is NOT Bowser on crack. He's not even Bowser at all in spite of their similarities. Different potential, different strategies, different approaches, totally different characters with a couple of similar moves. You might as well say that Luigi is Mario on crack.

Compare their specials:
1. Charizard's b-up has way better range than Bowser's.

It also doesn't auto-sweet spot ledges, can't be ledge-canceled, and has possibly the worst post-move lag of any up B in the game except possibly DK's (which CAN be ledge canceled).

2. Charizard's neutral b is pretty much the same as Bowser's if used correctly.

Insofar as they can both be used as pokes, yes. As far as anything else is concerned, no.

3. Charizard's side b does WAY more damage. The only advantage that Bowser's side-b has is that it functions like a grab, so it can't be countered (by the MOVE Counter, I mean).

COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MOVES. I haven't heard of people winning matches by Chari-ciding.

4. Charizard's down b turns into a speed demon to match faster characters. Bowser's just makes him drop like a stone.

*Sigh* First of all, Bowser's down b can be lethal when edge-canceled. Secondly, a lot of PT mains hate Squirtle. Third, there is a time and a place for Pokemon Change. It is NOT to be abused.

Or, all of Zard's smashes have better range, his jab combo is better, and his aerials (d-air) are insane.

Charizard's smash attacks... kind of suck. His tilts and throws serve much the same purpose and are about a billion times better. The only OCCASIONAL exception is his up smash.

You really need to reexamine Charizard (and Bowser, for that matter) if you think that the two characters are even remotely similar.

 

[Bestiarius]

OK, I will concede that my initial statement was wrong. However, I do think that Bowser and Charizard are at least similar. Their play styles are different, true, but I think that they are similar enough that if you are good with one, you can be at least decent with the other. I do think that you are blatantly wrong about Charizard's smash attacks. They do decent damage and knockback, plus they have nice range and they're not as slow as most of the other heavies'. Also, I think Rock Smash tends to come in handy much more often than Bowserciding. Am I saying Bowsercide is useless? Absolutely not. I just think the occasion for it is significantly less than a well-timed RS. Also, I agree with you that Pokemon Change is not to be abused. However, this doesn't mean that it should not be used, like you said. But typically, if Charizard has a problem with one character, Squirtle tends to be able to make more headway. Also, you are blatantly wrong when you say most PT mains hate Squirtle. Squirtle is one of the best close range fighters in the game, nearly impossible to predict when used correctly, and downright lethal in the hands of a player who knows what they are doing with him. Many PT mains recognize this and are not stupid enough to hate this crucial piece of the trio.

 

[Charizard92]

You sir, have no idea what you're talking about do you. Charizard only appears like Bowser, he isn't very similar. Squirtle is unreliable, and there are more occasions where Charizard should bite the bullet than switch to Squirtle. Charizard's smash attacks, while stronger and farther ranged than Bowsers, is slow by most standards, and most mainers don't use it often. Oh, and Squirtle is kinda unreliable, the better you get, the more apparent this is.

 

[Miles.]

Bowser and Charizard both breathe fire.

That is all they share in common.

 

[Stroupes]

That ^ and their weight class.

 

[Charizard92]

yep, and the potential tier class (if Charizard was classed alone)

 

[Stroupes]

They all really should be in different tiers.

Personally though, I think PT should be further up there, even altogether.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Tangent: Charizard can breathe Flamethrower backwards on sloped surfaces by aiming it down. How useful is this? Probably not very, but I thought it was interesting. The range is diminished a little bit. Similarly, you can shoot it up on walls.

Charizard is not really similar to Bowser much, if at all. Similar jabs and neutral specials maybe, but overall no.

 

[gantrain05]

charizard and bowser don't share a weight class, maybe considering they are "heavyweight" but charizard is kind of on the low end of the heavyweights, bowser, DK, ganon, DDD, and snake are all heavier, bowser being the heaviest.

 

[Stroupes]

There are 3 weight classes: Lightweight, Middleweight, and Heavyweight.

Bowser and Charizard are heavyweights, no matter how fast/slow either of them are compared to the other.

 

[Onxy]

Isn't Charizard heavier than Ganon?

Edit: Charizard is on the top 5 for heaviest characters in the game. He is on the low end for nothing as far as weight is concerned.

 

[Bestiarius]

OK, I apologize. I was just making a point that is apparently wrong. I just thought they were kinda similar and always found that Charizard was slightly similar to Bowser and had the advantage in a matchup between them.

 

[Onxy]

Charizard IMO has a slight advantage. Charizard has the better aerials overall, better smashes, slightly better tilts (Bowser's ftilt is faster, but can't kill, and just as good as Charizard's, if not a little better), and a much better grab and Flame Thrower.

 

[Charizard92]

Yep, Charizard is definitely higher tier than Bowser. Bowser is mid-mid tier, so that says something.

 

[Bestiarius]

That's all I was trying to say. Thanks, Onyx, for saying it the way you did.

 

[Collective of Bears]

I'd say Charizard is better than Bowser for his superior air game.

 

[Bestiarius]

Onyx, why do you think that Zard's Flamethrower is better? I've always thought of it as slightly worse. Does it do more dameage or something like that?

 

[Charizard92]

I did testing. Bowser's is longer, but it disperses in around five seconds.

Charizard's is shorter, but lasts like two seconds longer.

they are kind of even in that regard.

 

[Onxy]

Onyx, why do you think that Zard's Flamethrower is better? I've always thought of it as slightly worse. Does it do more dameage or something like that?

It's better on smaller characters. I can't tell you how many times they roll behind me when I use Boozer's Flame at a close distance. As for Charizard, it's never happend yet, because it's not radial like Bowser's.

 

[Onxy]

Hey, NEW tactic idea! Have you ever tried jab cancel to Usmash? I've tried it, and it work pretty well, try it out!

As for Bowser's aerial game. IMO it's completely inferior to Charizard's. I feared that bowser's Bair would have huge reach over Charizard, but it actually has the same range as Charizard's Bair, and a bit shorter than Charizard's Fair, not to mention that they are all slower than Zard's.

 

[Bestiarius]

Also, does Boozer's b-air have the same sweet-spot spike that zard's does?

 

[Onxy]

Sweetspot...spike?

 

[Bestiarius]

Like, if you hit with the flaming point of zard's tail, the "sweetspot," it can spike somebody, or so I've heard.

 

[Toby.]

Like, if you hit with the flaming point of zard's tail, the "sweetspot," it can spike somebody, or so I've heard.

Almost. It's actually the wing that spikes them. Since they have to be so close to 'zard for that to occur its a little more dangerous to use.

 

[Bestiarius]

It's more dangerous for Charizard than for Bowser??

 

[Toby.]

Nono, its more dangerous to go for the spike than for a standard sweet spot hit. I wasn't comparing it to bowser.