Charizard Tactical Discussion

[Deleted member]

Why would you dsmash if they are in the air. It serves its purpose well, hitting rollers and making them wanna stop rolling behind you. D3's dsmash isnt good because it hits aerial opponents. Charizard is NOT an aerial character. He has a good defensive air game, but his main purpose is in his jabs, tilts, broken grab range, and amazing punishment if you predict an opponents spacing. Charizards fsmash is the bowser fsmash of melee, except its got more range and pull back. His rock smash is one of his best defensive moves, and a good offensive one, and flame thrower is too good.

 

[zeta]

charizard can be an aerial character if you play him like it. His bair is incredibly fast and his fair kills. His nair destroys air dodge spammers and can gimp with a weak hit or mind game them away from the stage. Not saying his ground game is not good but his air game is definitely not bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Of course. It isnt a bad aerial game at all. Im sure he can be played like that, but he seems to be BUILT like a primarily ground character. Look at what he has in the air. Good aerials, but of course, many characters have better aerial games, or other tools to beat his air game. Where as his ground game, some characters might have the jabs and tilts(snake, ike), but cant match the grabs. Nobody has anything like rock smash. I dont like classifying aerial and grounded, because matchups come into play, but charizards ground game is definately superior to his aerial game, and in many matchups, he is outclassed aerially.

 

[Onxy]

i dont think you get it..

if your using dsmashes to counter ariels... you have a serious flaw in your game.

dsmashes are to counter rolling opponents, just cause certain characters have a downsmash can hit ariels doesnt mean that s what its meant for.

smash 101

duh?

How do I not get it when I brought it up? A simple jump can counteract the Dsmash. I NEVER said that it should be used to counter aerials, but what I AM saying is that if an opponent so happens to jump right next to you or even inside you, the attack will not work. Get what I'm trying to say, and stop putting words in my mouth!

 

[Onxy]

Why would you dsmash if they are in the air. It serves its purpose well, hitting rollers and making them wanna stop rolling behind you. D3's dsmash isnt good because it hits aerial opponents. Charizard is NOT an aerial character. He has a good defensive air game, but his main purpose is in his jabs, tilts, broken grab range, and amazing punishment if you predict an opponents spacing. Charizards fsmash is the bowser fsmash of melee, except its got more range and pull back. His rock smash is one of his best defensive moves, and a good offensive one, and flame thrower is too good.

When the did I say he was an aerial character? His best moves COME from the air! Even his **** Rocksmash works better comming from the air. All of his tilts, jab, and smashes (save the Usmash) are inferior to his Fair....just his Fair, and which his Bair is infinitly better than the other attacks I named. Charizard can't stay in the air because of his size, so he has to stand on the ground most of the time, which making him a very awkward character.

 

[Deleted member]

Ok, when would an opponent jump when they are right next to you? Im not sure who you are playing. If they jump they get jabbed, if u predict a roll they get dsmashed. Simple. It isnt garbage.

 

[Onxy]

Ok, when would an opponent jump when they are right next to you? Im not sure who you are playing. If they jump they get jabbed, if u predict a roll they get dsmashed. Simple. It isnt garbage.

For one, why would someone be right next to Charizard like that? Do they really want to get Rocksmashed or Flamethrowered? Why would they jump? Oh I don't know, maybe they want to hit me, or even get away from me? I don't get why someone would just roll into me like that? It's a good roll punishment, but why would they just roll into me? The better question is, who are you playing?

 

[Deleted member]

They roll behind you, not into you, and ill admit, its not a smart idea usually, but people do it(some characters have unpunishable rolls, so its always useful). Im playing in tournaments against good players thanks how about you =P
(i dont play PT in tournaments, but ima maybe use him as a counterpick...not sure to who tho lol). I hrd u only play online?

I disagree strongly with your statement about fair and bair.

 

[Onxy]

Bair is infinitly better than all of his tilts, jab, and his smashes (not Wing Attack). How is it not? Has range, kill power, and very speedy. What's not good about it, and how is it not better?


I play offline here and there, but I haven't been playing at all though lately, and does that actually matter? The fact is the Dsmash is bad - easily his worst attack. If you think another attack of his is worse, go ahead, shoot.

 

[zeta]

Bair is infinitly better than all of his tilts, jab, and his smashes (not Wing Attack). How is it not? Has range, kill power, and very speedy. What's not good about it, and how is it not better?


I play offline here and there, but I haven't been playing at all though lately, and does that actually matter? The fact is the Dsmash is bad - easily his worst attack. If you think another attack of his is worse, go ahead, shoot.

bair sometimes only hits with the weak hit and that leaves you open



up air is charizards worst move.

 

[Onxy]

bair sometimes only hits with the weak hit and that leaves you open

up air is charizards worst move.

And Dsmash doesn't leave you open? How does Bair leave you open if you are in the air with it most of the time? His Uair lingers, it's not bad.

 

[Levitas]

Do they really want to get Rocksmashed or Flamethrowered?

Duh. Every non-charizard aspires to a death by rocksmash. To the point that they will invariably rush in to kill themselves on your rock.

Who are YOU playing....

 

[Onxy]

Duh. Every non-charizard aspires to a death by rocksmash. To the point that they will invariably rush in to kill themselves on your rock.

Who are YOU playing....

That was my point....

 

[zeta]

And Dsmash doesn't leave you open? How does Bair leave you open if you are in the air with it most of the time? His Uair lingers, it's not bad.

for the sake of arguement we will say that if the weak bair hits then you are more open then if the dsmash hits. it goes without saying if you miss with either than you could get punished, however i'll give that you can auto cancel the bair while downsmash has ending lag

up air may linger but dsmash has a hit box as big as snakes uptilt(exagerating but might be true)

 

[Onxy]

I still stand with Dsmash being his worst move. It doesn't even have a great knockback. It has range, and it seems like it has a lot, but after time it just seems shorter and shorter.

 

[Itburns]

onyx.. i dont think anyne gets what you say.. thats why you keep getting different people responding to you.

1st you said it was garbage.. then you is it was good expect for it doesnt hit people if they jump, then you said it was garbage again..

whatever... lets just put it this way.. im not gonna call ivysaurs vinewhip garbage cause it cant hit grounded opponents, because thats not what its meant for

 

[zeta]

I still stand with Dsmash being his worst move. It doesn't even have a great knockback. It has range, and it seems like it has a lot, but after time it just seems shorter and shorter.

At least we can agree to disagree

 

[Onxy]

onyx.. i dont think anyne gets what you say.. thats why you keep getting different people responding to you.

1st you said it was garbage.. then you is it was good expect for it doesnt hit people if they jump, then you said it was garbage again..

whatever... lets just put it this way.. im not gonna call ivysaurs vinewhip garbage cause it cant hit grounded opponents, because thats not what its meant for

I said it was a good roll punishment, but easily Charizard's most garbage attack. It WOULD be a good attack if an opponent jumping didn't nullify it.

Aerial combat is much more of a issue than people rolling behind you. Vinewhip is not bad for hitting recovering opponents on the ground, when they roll from the ledge.

Overall, his Dsmash is bad. It doesn't even have a good amount of knockback to call it a kill move. Okay startup time, horrible ending lag, good damage, meh knockback, has range, but can't hit anyone that just so happens to jump slightly. It might not sound like much, but it's a real issue that makes it bad. People jump often.

 

[infernovia]

Yeah, Charizard's dsmash is his most worthless attack.

 

[zeta]

Yeah, Charizard's dsmash is his most worthless attack.

imo every attack has a purpose if you don't think so you are overlooking something

and dsmash can kill imma go to training mode right now!

i'm back chariazrds dsmash will kill a metaknight on fd at 112% that aint that bad

 

[Onxy]

It can kill, but it's not a good one. It's not a kill move to me.

 

[Jarun]

im not sure if its the BEST tactic but its worth a try,
I was fighting my friend and i did flamethrower, then rock smash directly after, leading to a grab when he landed and it worked pretty well.

 

[zeta]

Ever notice how the splash damage of rocksmash does no knockback? I've taken advantage of this by following with forward smash. Fsmash has such a long hitbox that if they are in the air then they are either forced to jump back, air dodge or get hit. The ending lag on fsmash is not terrible. This is pretty safe to do.

@3:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNDlegDA_Pw&feature=PlayList&p=A519324ED74841A7&index=0

I know he landed before i connected, but the theory is sound.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I rarely, if ever, use Dsmash with Charizard. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.

 

[Miles.]

I rarely, if ever, use Dsmash with Charizard. Not worth the risk, in my opinion.

It is a good trick and it is useful out a pivot.

The range is huge.

Sometimes I will try it after a jab or two.

Or after a sidestep.

 

[Toby.]

Ever notice how the splash damage of rocksmash does no knockback? I've taken advantage of this by following with forward smash. Fsmash has such a long hitbox that if they are in the air then they are either forced to jump back, air dodge or get hit. The ending lag on fsmash is not terrible. This is pretty safe to do.

@3:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNDlegDA_Pw&feature=PlayList&p=A519324ED74841A7&index=0

I know he landed before i connected, but the theory is sound.

I usually use ftilt in situations such as these, because I don't like the idea of getting shield grabbed. I'll use fsmash the next few times and see how it works out for me.

 

[Onxy]

Wouldn't Wing Attack work better here?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Fsmash I usually reserve for a Gimpyfish combo near the ledge. And only once every couple of matches. It really depends on how well they can read it.

 

[Charizard92]

Yep, really the Fsmash may be the most powerful (never tested it), but it has limited potential due to it's start up lag and hit box. IT beats the ground only Dsmash though.

 

[GrayPlague]

1. Start with Ivysaur.
2. Rack up damage.
3. Switch to Charizard and dthrow.
4. ???
5. PROFIT!

 

[Charizard92]

^ That Doesn't Work All The Time!

 

[Toby.]

10 Obvious Observations

 

[Charizard92]

^ I already won the king of the obvious award, twice, I get it!

 

[Onxy]

^ I already won the king of the obvious award, twice, I get it!

*Pokes Charizard constantly*

*Smacks Charizard on the head*

*Jumps on Charizard and bites him on the head*

*Roughs up Charizard and stops abruptly, and leaves*

 

[Charizard92]

Onxy, right now you are risking getting thrown out the window, do you want to risk the getting burned too?

 

[Mangme]

I think we should start using Charizard's glide attack more. It isn't the greatest, but a properly canceled glide attack and lead into grabs, and jabs.

 

[Onxy]

We should look into it. It's also a kill move =)

 

[Mangme]

Yeah, also, I tested this in training mode. But when Charizard is fatigued, he can connect a glide attack and an fsmash together against a heavy character. Basically, if you glide attack correctly, then fsmash, the fsmash's last hit will probably hit.

 

[Toby.]

Yeah, also, I tested this in training mode. But when Charizard is fatigued, he can connect a glide attack and an fsmash together against a heavy character. Basically, if you glide attack correctly, then fsmash, the fsmash's last hit will probably hit.

Charizards glide is soooooo slow. It's not a particularly good way of attacking somebody. They could always shield, dodge, or step back a bit. It doesn't have the surprised factor of faster gliders.

 

[Mangme]

Yeah it's slow, but sometimes it can be surprising to some people to see Charizard using his slow glide attack.

EDIT: Oh yeah, Charizard can jab lock two times in a row. HURRAY? It is highly situational, and would most likely be useless. But I can see tech chases with Charizard's grab. When they roll off the ground.