Charizard Tactical Discussion

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Simple, Flamethrower is a ranged attack, and you can angle it so you can trap you opponent. It will give some space.

It's far from an effective spacing tool. It's just an attack that takes up space. A real spacing tool not only takes up space, but forces patterned movement by the opponent, limits options, and allows for follow-ups. You'll agree, I hope, that flamethrower really does not do much of either one of those.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Flamethrower is really not a spacing attack. It's more of a reactional attack for anyone to be fool hardy enough to dash towards you. And even then, you might be better off using one of Charizard's tilts.

 

[Charizard92]

Then again, Flamethrower primary purpose is his own version of bullet seed, but isn't used as often due to the fact that Rock Smash is kinda broken.

 

[Ratherion]

I use the boulder for two things, defense and a perfect 40 damage, as an offensive technique the only realy way you can do well with it is to abuse the SAF and get in the high-kockback KO at around 90-ish. Usually when you're falling or approaching an edgeguarder in the air.

 

[Charizard92]

Told you so.

 

[Ratherion]

Huh? There are lots of moves that KO at much MUCH lower percentages and have either less startup time or greater length of the KO hitbox.

 

[Charizard92]

Yeah, but the most obvious two (F and D smash) aren't them. And Rock smash isn't completely broken, Marth is.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

double post

sowwiez

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Man the way you talk is so hell of random that one struggles just trying to figure out who you're talking to.

Anyway, Charizard has tons of KO moves, so Rock Smash's other uses should be emphasized, instead of relying on it for KOs. This does not mean, however, that we all didn't know from day one that the move has KO power.

 

[Ratherion]

Pretty much, like I said earlier, I find it more useful as a defensive tactic. Using the SAF and SUPER long hitbox to disrupt recoveries works quite well, along with being an approach stopper.

 

[Charizard92]

Oh, sorry Pope. Didn't know it wasn't obvious who I was talking too.

 

[unsung-unit2291]

I've had this argument with my friend for the longest time.
I say Zard's Fair is not a good approach attack, barring a edge-guarded semi-spike.
It's outer hitbox has no hitstun, and the landing lag is very punishable.

He says it's still large enough, expecially if you sweetspot it, and it puts a lot of pressure on, regardless of how much it does.

What do you all think?

 

[Konpaku]

Well if you sweetspot the fair, your probably just going to end up getting sheild grabbed since the approach is so obvious,
And yes since the landing lag is pretty bad its not worth trying to space since the tip of fair is useless.

Actually approaching with B is pretty good =)
since you cant get grabbed and pretty much just pushes them back. then just try to follow up on that.

 

[Hydde]

FT is not so good for spacing. Is better used for mindgames and for trapping opponents on the edge, also sometimes is good to force them to leave the edgehog . I personally use it when someone shield in front of me.
About the fair.. is definitely not a good approach..mainly because of the lag of hit stun in the end of the flame. Is good to surprise people and send them to the edge...or to send thm very far when edguarding. I sometimes mix it up with a sh nair, but that is also kind of risky.

The rock smash, yeh i used it mostly on defensive manuvers like retreating with a sh and to annoy the shield of my opponent.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I'm somewhat new to PT, so bear with me, but in my opinion, f-air is a very good approach, and is a very good spacing tool. It is his most ranged aerial, relatively quick, and does decent damage. Pretty much like Math's f-air, except flame. Is it bad that I use f-air as an approach?

Also, when my opponent is close, I use a retreating sh n-air, and that seems to work most of the time, and usually makes my opponent wary to get in too close. When they are on the ground, I use f-tilt, and if they are a bit closer, I use Jab A. The main time that I use Rock Smash is when I am coming back after being hit off a ledge.

Since I'm new to PT, I guess I'm asking if these are good tactics.

 

[Charizard92]

We are currently debating about the Fair approach. The hit box is large, but the outer area doesn't have stun and it is quite obvious. It is still better than trying to approach on land due to Charizard's low WALKING speed. His running speed, however, is more reflective of his in-game stats because Charizard is very fast.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Fair is not a good approach. It's highly punishable, highly unsafe on block, roll, dodge, or even if not sweetspotted. Bair is a better approach, obviously only when spaced well, and upon landing you need to cover yourself with jabs or tilts.

 

[Charizard92]

Better land approach too.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Interesting. So would a better use for f-air be spacing? As in a retreating f-air?

 

[Retro Gaming]

Also, when my opponent is close, I use a retreating sh n-air, and that seems to work most of the time, and usually makes my opponent wary to get in too close. When they are on the ground, I use f-tilt, and if they are a bit closer, I use Jab A. The main time that I use Rock Smash is when I am coming back after being hit off a ledge.

I do this sometimes. Two things: If your back is turned to the opponent it's easier to sweet-spot the Nair, but doesn't let you respond with anything except Ftilt and Rock Smash. Secondly, I use Dtilt more than Ftilt after this sort of thing, though.

 

[PopeOfChiliTown]

Interesting. So would a better use for f-air be spacing? As in a retreating f-air?

It a good spacing tool, though again, not Charizard's best. You can definitely use it and get good results, provided you always retreat, always auto-cancel, and always follow up with jabs or tilts. It's best use is to get early kills though.

 

[Charizard92]

Fair can be used as a gimping tool, like Squirtle's fair.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Pretty much, the rule of thumb is "don't use F-Air on grounded enemies." As previously mentioned, N-Air and B-Air make better approaches and spacing options when both of you guys are still on the platform. SH, RAR'd, both aerials can be effective but still a bit risky if not spaced properly. Getting too close will still get you shield grabbed, defeating the whole purpose of substituting F-Air in the first place.

My favorite Charizard approach is grabbing. Yeah. I usually run up to them. I mean no one expects that. Everyone's like "haha who would just dash and grab you, that is so easy to defend against! Charizard is slow!" Maybe mix it up with Rock smash a bit like someone else in here said.

 

[Umpadumpalump]

Any tips for Charizard's glide?

 

[Jeepy Sol]

I never initiate a glide with the intent of attacking; I usually only glide to gain some horizontal distance and recover. Charizard's glide is really too slow to be a threat. Although if you DO glide, it is best to cancel it with an attack or an airdodge.

 

[Charizard92]

Haven't really used the glide, so no comment.

 

[Konpaku]

Glide is Garbage nuff said.

 

[PkTrainerCris]

Glide is good, but for recover, it helps charizard because althought he has two midair jumps, those jumps are too short, and glide helps cover a lot of distance, specially horizontal distance, the glide attack is very good, has good knockback and prioity, and the hitbox is the enitr charizards body, which a HUGE body by the way, but the glide is so slow that a glide attack is very predictable, so its better to use against edgeguarders. Also, start gliding after your first midair jump, so when you finish gliding you can still jump again and user your upB

 

[Charizard92]

Glide is good, but for recover, it helps charizard because althought he has two midair jumps, those jumps are too short, and glide helps cover a lot of distance, specially horizontal distance, the glide attack is very good, has good knockback and prioity, and the hitbox is the enitr charizards body, which a HUGE body by the way, but the glide is so slow that a glide attack is very predictable, so its better to use against edgeguarders. Also, start gliding after your first midair jump, so when you finish gliding you can still jump again and user your upB

I second that. Too bad most of the recoveries I make are vertical.

 

[Ratherion]

As a little mindgame, if they're expecting a Glide attack, I airdodge down and hit them with fly.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I rarely glide. it leaves you pretty open in my opinion, as the glide attack gets owned by everything. Just about every character I've tried it against has been able to hit me out of my glide. If I glide, I drop out of it before reaching the stage. If you're gliding above the stage, you're almost giving your opponent a free attack. I also go down at a diagonal for maximum speed.

 

[Charizard92]

Me too, I don't even know the purpose of gliding since horizontal recovery is rare.

 

[Konpaku]

I rarely glide. it leaves you pretty open in my opinion, as the glide attack gets owned by everything. Just about every character I've tried it against has been able to hit me out of my glide. If I glide, I drop out of it before reaching the stage. If you're gliding above the stage, you're almost giving your opponent a free attack. I also go down at a diagonal for maximum speed.

QFT.

10 char

 

[Charizard92]

What the **** do you mean?

 

[Ratherion]

I rarely glide. it leaves you pretty open in my opinion, as the glide attack gets owned by everything. Just about every character I've tried it against has been able to hit me out of my glide. If I glide, I drop out of it before reaching the stage. If you're gliding above the stage, you're almost giving your opponent a free attack. I also go down at a diagonal for maximum speed.

I've actually been implementing that new strategy that MK pros are using, gliding way down low off the edge to glide attack someone, then recovering.

If they try and dodge, they lose their recovery and die.
If they hit me in midair, they lose their rocvery and die.
If I hit them, the kockback is strong enough at any percent to hit them out of a possible recovery zone.

Yes, it is punishable, but only by characters with recoveries that it wouldn't work against anyhow, like Jiggs, Rob, Snake or Pika.

 

[Charizard92]

seems like an OK idea.

 

[infernovia]

Isn't this what PoCT posted a while back?

 

[Syrus_Draco]

Along the lines of gliding, I've found that helps give me a bit more momentum when recovering from being shot off a far distance. I tend to glide, attack to get out of it, and still have one extra jump and attack available to me without having tired myself out.

 

[Retro Gaming]

I've actually been implementing that new strategy that MK pros are using, gliding way down low off the edge to glide attack someone, then recovering.

If they try and dodge, they lose their recovery and die.
If they hit me in midair, they lose their rocvery and die.
If I hit them, the kockback is strong enough at any percent to hit them out of a possible recovery zone.

Yes, it is punishable, but only by characters with recoveries that it wouldn't work against anyhow, like Jiggs, Rob, Snake or Pika.

I still wouldn't use this, considering Charizard has a lot of gimping options. All of his aerials except for Nair and Uair are excellent edge-guarding tools, and a lot faster than his glide attack. It works for Metaknight and Pit fine because of their fast glide speeds and because they attack with disjointed hitboxes, but that's not really the case for Charizard.

In addition, all of the characters you listed ARE affected by his aerials, most noticeably Jiggly and Snake. ROB can't even air-dodge during his recovery, so any of the aerials are easier to time.

 

[Charizard92]

Gliding=somewhat pointless on Charizard.