Charizard Matchup Discussion Thread

[JOE!]

Jab leads to juggles and chases easier in exchange for less power and horizontal reach

 

[tauKhan]

I think the added range is very significant advantage in dtilt, since in neutral game you want to hit opponent from as far away as you can. I think it's better at denying fox taking your space since he really can't stay in the huge dtilt range for too long. If you use jabs he can get closer to you. And I find dtilt still leads to huge combos and chases. If you hit with middle hitbox the fox out of dd, he is prolly di'ng it in. If you hit the tipper, it set ups for tech chase and gives you huge positional advantage.
The only reason I would use jab is if I expect them to jump at me, but zards nair already makes fox think twice about jumping too much. Also I use the dtilt from such a long range that if the fox jumped that early you could react to the jump with dashback nair.

 

[Heroofhatz]

You have vids?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbs

This is one I played a while ago. I don't get pressured that much, so it may not be what you're looking for, but it should give you an idea of how you should be spacing him. Let me know if you still have questions

 

[Mr.Random]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbs

This is one I played a while ago. I don't get pressured that much, so it may not be what you're looking for, but it should give you an idea of how you should be spacing him. Let me know if you still have questions

Wow excellent play man. You made Fox your ***** ON DREAMLAND of all places.

 

[Remzi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbs

This is one I played a while ago. I don't get pressured that much, so it may not be what you're looking for, but it should give you an idea of how you should be spacing him. Let me know if you still have questions

Love that Zard man, I'm gonna be on the lookout for your vids

 

[Mera Mera]

Here's the vid, again, not super good for either, we went really even. He got big combos but I could space him out and kill the pills with jab or Nair. So while his combo game is better, his projectiles can be nullified pretty substantially.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvPLYXtg9Jw

I'd maybe agree with 60:40 but I'm leaning towards maybe 50:50, but that's just me

I personally think it's slightly in Mario's advantage. A couple things that this Mario didn't do that would improve the match up in his favor:
- shield pressure with down air -> grab/jab/dsmash mix ups
- jump away then B reverse his pills/fireballs (which prevents you from nairing in time reliably because the jump away means you'd whiff nair if he doesn't b reverse, and if you wait until he b reverses fireball, then you don't have time to RAR nair).
I think you're right that Zard can deal with Mario's fireballs pretty well by going for nair when he jumps, but I think jab is pretty situational. Depending on the spacing, you sometimes have to hit the fireball before Mario is in range, and the clanking of the projectile makes you vulnerable if you don't simultaneously hit him. Really, the main thing that makes this match up hard imo is Mario's down air being safe on shield. When Zard is on a platform and Mario is grounded below, nair is very unsafe because of the possibility of shield -> jump out of shield, but Mario doesn't fear Zard's shield at all.

At least that's my understanding of the match up.

As for Fox, I think that Fox is fast enough to punish Zard for pretty much any time he jumps when they are in neutral (since Zard then must land and have endlag). A Fox who is familiar with the match up can be very difficult to deal with. Small stages can help, since you can make it so that he can only retreat from the back swing of nair by going off stage. Also Fox kills Zard pretty early, and if he follows your DI on up throw well (which he can do on reaction), your smash DI will often be futile because you're so fat. I've died as early as 75% (damage before the throw) as Zard to up throw -> up air on a number of stages.
That said, Fox gets gimped and combo'd so hard that even with Fox's insane advantage in neutral, it often feels pretty even. I think in the long run this will become a pretty bad match up, but only time will tell.

 

[Heroofhatz]

I personally think it's slightly in Mario's advantage. A couple things that this Mario didn't do that would improve the match up in his favor:
- shield pressure with down air -> grab/jab/dsmash mix ups
- jump away then B reverse his pills/fireballs (which prevents you from nairing in time reliably because the jump away means you'd whiff nair if he doesn't b reverse, and if you wait until he b reverses fireball, then you don't have time to RAR nair).
I think you're right that Zard can deal with Mario's fireballs pretty well by going for nair when he jumps, but I think jab is pretty situational. Depending on the spacing, you sometimes have to hit the fireball before Mario is in range, and the clanking of the projectile makes you vulnerable if you don't simultaneously hit him. Really, the main thing that makes this match up hard imo is Mario's down air being safe on shield. When Zard is on a platform and Mario is grounded below, nair is very unsafe because of the possibility of shield -> jump out of shield, but Mario doesn't fear Zard's shield at all.

At least that's my understanding of the match up.

As for Fox, I think that Fox is fast enough to punish Zard for pretty much any time he jumps when they are in neutral (since Zard then must land and have endlag). A Fox who is familiar with the match up can be very difficult to deal with. Small stages can help, since you can make it so that he can only retreat from the back swing of nair by going off stage. Also Fox kills Zard pretty early, and if he follows your DI on up throw well (which he can do on reaction), your smash DI will often be futile because you're so fat. I've died as early as 75% (damage before the throw) as Zard to up throw -> up air on a number of stages.
That said, Fox gets gimped and combo'd so hard that even with Fox's insane advantage in neutral, it often feels pretty even. I think in the long run this will become a pretty bad match up, but only time will tell.

About the Mario MU:

Pretty much any shield pressure against Zard can be solved in two ways, Usmash OOS, or Up B OOS. The Dair pressure can be really good, but if I can figure out when his follow ups are unsafe, a Usmash or even an Up B can at least get me out of pressure. I didn't really do it much in those earlier matches but now it's become an invaluable tool. Also the fact is that I can outspace him horizontally with Nair, or jab, and if he tries to fall on me from above, Usmash is a grossly disjointed hitbox that has yet to trade with Dair.

About the fireballs, yeah jab is pretty situational, I've been playing against a ton of other Mario's since then and it is totally possible to mess up the spacing and just jab the fireball and not hit him. That being said it is still good, and you always have RAR Nair to fall back onto. And about the B reversing, if he jumps back and I whiff the Nair, it still swings back around and would cover the area right below his feet. I would also eat the pill with Nair, thus still keeping me in an advantageous position. The only time it wouldn't work was if I mistimed the Nair and went to early or too late so that he could shield the back swing, WD OOS punish.

The part that makes this MU frustrating is that he can get out of LITERALLY ANY OF YOUR SUPER JUMP FOLLOW UPS. The only exception is when you get a Dair/Dsmash but even then the timing is tight. Mostly you want to always be under him, since he can't answer Usmash and you can juggle him for days. In the neutral game, just try and stay close to him with dash dancing, you can easily outpace him and bait him into stupid stuff. Or if he does get in on you, up B OOS can reset it to neutral (just don't whiff please).


About Fox:

If Fox is hitting you because you're jumping your doing something wrong. If you RAR Nair correctly, it should keep him in enough shield stun for you to land. If you're just jumping for no reason, you still have Nair/Fair/even side B if you're brave to cover you're front. You can also waveland to mix up spacing (waveland back jab is really good). In the neutral game, you should be going even with him, you're both crazy fast and you can pressure him indirectly with just your presence, where he has to get in to really pressure you (but even then, up B OOS or Usmash OOS if he's above you works wonders for getting out of shine pressure). I do agree that his Uthrow Uair is really good, I don't think you can SDI out of it, it's just something you're going to have to deal with. However, you can kill fox and crazy early percents. Like, if you hit him with a hard knockdown, he should be toast because of horrible tech chasing things you can do to him (also the fact that Usmash/Dsmash/Dair/Utilt all lead to side B at certain percents, also gimping him is really stupid easy).

The main thing that can make the MU seem really hard is that it is easy to fall into the trap of letting fox run circles around you as you try and space with Nair/Jab. If you can keep pace with his ground speed, it's suuuuppppeeerrrr hard for him to get in on you. I've drilled this MU a lot with one of the best fox's in CO, and the times that I would lose to him was when I just sat there as he baited me into doing stupid stuff like jabbing or Nair-ing for no reason.

 

[Mera Mera]

About the Mario MU:
And about the B reversing, if he jumps back and I whiff the Nair, it still swings back around and would cover the area right below his feet. I would also eat the pill with Nair, thus still keeping me in an advantageous position. The only time it wouldn't work was if I mistimed the Nair and went to early or too late so that he could shield the back swing, WD OOS punish.
...
If Fox is hitting you because you're jumping your doing something wrong. If you RAR Nair correctly, it should keep him in enough shield stun for you to land.

Ah, I think you misunderstood me.

The Mario b reversing: you end up in a dilemma where if you nair and he doesn't b reverse, you whiff and he comes in when you land to put on pressure. But if you don't nair then when he b reverses the fireball it's hard to react to. Admittedly this might be a time for a jab attempt, I may be under-using jab to protect me from fireballs.

As for the shield pressure from Mario, I'm not so sure. Admittedly I don't know the frames on up B for Zard and I definitely have to get better at thinking to do that more, but I will say that it's pretty tight on windows and requires some prediction of what Mario will do. If you up B right as he jabs or d-smashes, you might get hit before your hitbox is out. Mario's jab1 and jab2 come out frame 2 and Dsmash comes out frame 3. I might be wrong, but I think you could only up B to avoid the grab which comes out frame 7. Meaning you have to guess when he'll grab. To make matters worse, dsmash could poke and even if it doesn't, it pushes Mario far enough back to prevent you from punishing him.

As for the Fox thing, He can run away from you when you jump. He doesn't have to shield, When you land, Zard is vulnerable, and because Fox isn't afraid of your shield options he can just go in (Fox has probs the best shield pressure in the game).

To clarify, I do well in tournaments (depending... if Chicago peeps and Frootloop show I get 4th +/- a place, if neither are there I get 1st or 2nd) and have beaten good Foxes, including one in Grand Finals. And yeah, Zard can destroy fox combo/gimp-wise. But I do feel like it's pretty hard to approach Fox without opening your self up against him. Aside from Frootloop though, Fox hasn't given me too much trouble. I have a lot more trouble with Falco (although again, only Frootloop actually beats me with Falco consistently).

Edit: Frootloop is a much better player than me, but I still do think that from what I've seen of the best Fox in WI (frootloop), it seems like a hard match up for Zard.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Ah, I think you misunderstood me.

The Mario b reversing: you end up in a dilemma where if you nair and he doesn't b reverse, you whiff and he comes in when you land to put on pressure. But if you don't nair then when he b reverses the fireball it's hard to react to. Admittedly this might be a time for a jab attempt, I may be under-using jab to protect me from fireballs.
As for the shield pressure from Mario, I'm not so sure. Admittedly I don't know the frames on up B for Zard and I definitely have to get better at thinking to do that more, but I will say that it's pretty tight on windows and requires some prediction of what Mario will do. If you up B right as he jabs or d-smashes, you might get hit before your hitbox is out. Jab1 and jab2 come out frame 2 and Dsmash comes out frame 3. I might be wrong, but I think you could only up B to avoid the grab which comes out frame 7. That makes Mario's mix up pretty strong.

As for the Fox thing, He can run away from you when you jump. He doesn't have to shield, When you land, Zard is vulnerable, and because Fox isn't afraid of your shield options he can just go in (Fox has probs the best shield pressure in the game).

To clarify, I do well in tournaments and have beaten Foxes to win grand Finals before... and yeah, Zard can destroy fox combo/gimp-wise. But I do feel like it's pretty hard to approach Fox without opening your self up against him. Aside from Frootloop though, Fox hasn't given me too much trouble. I have a lot more trouble with Falco (although again, only Frootloop actually beats me with Falco consistently).

Edit: Frootloop is a much better player than me, but I still do think that from what I've seen of the best Fox in WI (frootloop), it seems like a hard match up for Zard.

The B reverse thing makes sense, but I still maintain that if he in in the air jumping away from you, even if you whiff he can't punish it. The way I'm imagining it is that you're both on FD in even level with each other. If he dashes away, you dash forward. You see him jump, you ready a RAR Nair so you jump reversed. He B reverses, he'll most likely get hit, either by the startup, or by the backswing as he lands. If he doesn't B reverse, then his momentum is away from you which means he can't punish you, and most likely you eat the fireball. Nobody lost, but you probably have better stage control at this point.

I sort of agree that fox is hard to approach, it's all about getting the correct spacing, and stage control is so crucial in the MU (as well as stage, since as you very correctly pointed out that smaller stages are better for Zard). The neutral game isn't really who gets the first hit, it's who is going to be more brave while vying for stage control, if either character get's cornered, it's a lot worse (i'd say worse for fox but still bad for both). Also, you should really be jumping against fox unless you're aiming for the backswing of Nair, since that's perfectly safe, that way he can't punish you jump and he really doesn't gain much if you whiff.

Falco is a lot worse, work on power shielding cause that's honestly one of your best ways to fight him. However, if you so much as push him off stage he's as good as dead. I would recommend using Up B OOS against him though, since a lot of falco's like to Shine then fall on you with Dair, Up B will trade with the Dair, which puts him in the air where you can Usmash him (since it outpaces Dair, then he's sort of screwed). You can also just Usmash OOS against his falling Dair and beat him, then proceed to do horrible things to him. Pro tip, abuse platforms and make him do something stupid because he can't hit you with lasers as easily on a platform.

As for the shield pressure...trust me, Up b is as fast as Bowser's, It's 4 frames on startup. Also he's the killer, IT'S INVINCIBLE THE FIRST 3 FRAMES (something that I just learned since I was wondering why I was getting away with it because I think your right ), so you're invincible until your first hitbox get's thrown out. You can get out of almost any shield pressure with it, I really recommend experimenting with it. I mean, you can't just do it to any move, but anything that has even a few frames of lag is susceptible. Fox should be scared of your OOS options, so should a lot of characters.




I'm liking this discussion though, you've made me think about quite a bit in this :D

 

[Mera Mera]

The B reverse thing makes sense, but I still maintain that if he in in the air jumping away from you, even if you whiff he can't punish it. The way I'm imagining it is that you're both on FD in even level with each other. If he dashes away, you dash forward. You see him jump, you ready a RAR Nair so you jump reversed. He B reverses, he'll most likely get hit, either by the startup, or by the backswing as he lands. If he doesn't B reverse, then his momentum is away from you which means he can't punish you, and most likely you eat the fireball. Nobody lost, but you probably have better stage control at this point.

Yeah, you are probably right. I don't think I reverse nair every time Mario jumps, and I probably should... I wonder, should I full hop reverse nair if he full hops? I will experiment. I think the Mario I play starts a lot of fireballs at a distance and from a full hop or short hop from a platform.

As for the shield pressure...trust me, Up b is as fast as Bowser's, It's 4 frames on startup. Also he's the killer, IT'S INVINCIBLE THE FIRST 3 FRAMES (something that I just learned since I was wondering why I was getting away with it because I think your right ), so you're invincible until your first hitbox get's thrown out. You can get out of almost any shield pressure with it, I really recommend experimenting with it. I mean, you can't just do it to any move, but anything that has even a few frames of lag is susceptible. Fox should be scared of your OOS options, so should a lot of characters.

So this paragraph just leveled up my Zard... I had no idea O_o That makes Zard's up B an INSANE out of shield option... I can't wait to try this against my friend who plays Lucario (who has pretty good shield pressure as well).
Thanks much for the info :D

I'm liking this discussion though, you've made me think about quite a bit in this :D

Agreed. One thing I need to figure out is, now that people are punishing the middle of my nair, what should Zard do if the person doesn't jump? He has great anti airs... should I just pressure them until they are by the ledge and they have to do something? That's generally my game plan, but I have to threaten with something. Spaced bairs seem to work on Zelda cause she's so slow, but I'm not sure aside from that. For now I'm going for grabs when people get too close... I don't know. Maybe I'm just over thinking and playing worse as a result (this past week I haven't been doing as well, specifically against that Mario player I've been referring to, Hunger).

Tell someone to try to stuff Nair when the tail is facing the wrong way and see if you can get away with nairing when they are grounded. It could be that there's just something I'm doing wrong and/or that I've just been having an off week... As far as I can tell it's their increased match up experience against Zard that's the major factor. That said now that I know to punish Mario's jumps on reaction those matches might start to go better.

 

[Heroofhatz]

Yeah, you are probably right. I don't think I reverse nair every time Mario jumps, and I probably should... I wonder, should I full hop reverse nair if he full hops? I will experiment. I think the Mario I play starts a lot of fireballs at a distance and from a full hop or short hop from a platform.


So this paragraph just leveled up my Zard... I had no idea O_o That makes Zard's up B an INSANE out of shield option... I can't wait to try this against my friend who plays Lucario (who has pretty good shield pressure as well).
Thanks much for the info :D


Agreed. One thing I need to figure out is, now that people are punishing the middle of my nair, what should Zard do if the person doesn't jump? He has great anti airs... should I just pressure them until they are by the ledge and they have to do something? That's generally my game plan, but I have to threaten with something. Spaced bairs seem to work on Zelda cause she's so slow, but I'm not sure aside from that. For now I'm going for grabs when people get too close... I don't know. Maybe I'm just over thinking and playing worse as a result (this past week I haven't been doing as well, specifically against that Mario player I've been referring to, Hunger).

Tell someone to try to stuff Nair when the tail is facing the wrong way and see if you can get away with nairing when they are grounded. It could be that there's just something I'm doing wrong and/or that I've just been having an off week... As far as I can tell it's their increased match up experience against Zard that's the major factor. That said now that I know to punish Mario's jumps on reaction those matches might start to go better.

As far as if you're playing against a spammy Mario, get on a platform and try and get closer towards him, else just Nair or WD jab closer to him. The key is to put him above you if you can, or just push him into a corner and he'll most likely do something stupid. As far as a solution to the full hop problem, full hop Nair is ok, but you lose some of the safeness of the SHFFL Nair. A better option if he full hops is to get under him as fast as possible and Usmash, power shield the fireball if necessary to get in. A Usmash sets up really good positioning for you. Even if you don't get a Usmash, you are uncomfortably close to him or you just got a little more stage control.

If people aren't jumping, you still have better range than them, but the key is to RAR Nair and aim WITH THE BACKSWING OF THE TAIL. One thing you might want to try as opposed to a full RAR, where you jump backwards out of the turn around animation, try neutral jumping out of the animation so you just essentially stop dead and reverse Nair. It puts up a wall that not many characters can fight. Also, if they aren't jumping, well then they aren't SHFFL-ing, and sort of limiting themselves a lot. But regardless, pressure them with Nair, eventually they will jump when they run out of horizontal space.

Also it could very well be that you're having an off week, don't let it get you down, we all go through it (I very recently got bodied by people that probably shouldn't have beaten me ). Nair is a great tool, but it certainly isn't perfect. It has to be pushed to the limits of spacing and timing before it is, an almost perfect move. Another thing to keep in mind is that Zard is fast, sort of unnecessarily fast at times. Don't fall into the trap of standing still and trying to space with stationary Nair or jab, I see a lot of Zard's do it and I even do it myself sometimes. If you keep whiffing grabs, get moving, or try jab cause that's a good move too. But as you've been learning, in shield isn't a bad place to be, in fact, you've got enough options to be pretty good in shield imo.

Quick question tho, when you mean "Tell someone to try to stuff Nair when the tail is facing the wrong way and see if you can get away with nairing when they are grounded.", do you mean my back facing them, or my front facing them? Because if I'm facing them it's totally punishable and I'm using Nair wrong. Backwards however...it's a two way street, cause if you hit with the start up and they block it, they can WD OOS and punish you (since Nair isn't multi hit, sort of the same thing if you shield Link's grounded up B you can just kind of stand in it afterwards). However there are two ways to make it safe. Hit with the start up right as you touch the ground, the shield stun will keep you safe. Or, hit with the backswing, it's late enough in the Nair and causes enough shield stun that they shouldn't be able to punish it (maybe WD OOS, but not before you can do something else).

Also I'm bad a quoting people in Smashboards so sorry the formatting is weird for my responses

 

[Mera Mera]

Also I'm bad a quoting people in Smashboards so sorry the formatting is weird for my responses

Haha I multiple times to get multiple copies of your post and deleted everything but the part I wanted to quote for each one

Also, I'm talking about when you go for a reverse nair, the tail is behind you twice, right? Well frames 11ish-22ish the tail is not protecting you're backside because it is either too high or on the part of the swing where the tail is in front of Zard. So during that period, if the person can get to you and put out a hitbox, they will beat you every time (remember you only have a hitbox on your tail). And if they are on the ground, they can get to you in time. You are also vulnerable from above from frames 18 on. As a result I am starting to think that nair is punishable on reaction for a grounded opponent.

I don't full RAR always, but actually I was trying to say that doing full drift RAR has been helping a little since it can help force the person to retreat further. Most of my nairs are not true RAR's since I'm not actually maintaining forward momentum. My main problem with nair lately is stated above ^

 

[Heroofhatz]

Haha I multiple times to get multiple copies of your post and deleted everything but the part I wanted to quote for each one

Also, I'm talking about when you go for a reverse nair, the tail is behind you twice, right? Well frames 11ish-22ish the tail is not protecting you're backside because it is either too high or on the part of the swing where the tail is in front of Zard. So during that period, if the person can get to you and put out a hitbox, they will beat you every time (remember you only have a hitbox on your tail). And if they are on the ground, they can get to you in time. You are also vulnerable from above from frames 18 on. As a result I am starting to think that nair is punishable on reaction for a grounded opponent.

I don't full RAR always, but actually I was trying to say that doing full drift RAR has been helping a little since it can help force the person to retreat further. Most of my nairs are not true RAR's since I'm not actually maintaining forward momentum. My main problem with nair lately is stated above ^

11 frames isn't enough time to WD OOS and punish you, and that's with perfect timing. When you take into the account the jump animation, the air dodge animation, and most importantly the slide animation, I think we computed it earlier to be about 20 frames (somewhere in that ball park). The other fact is that if they are going to make up the space between that beginning and the end of Nair, you have to be moving towards them (since the startup can't hit them), or they have to be moving towards you (again, because the startup can't hit them for this illustration). They either have to be moving towards you (and still somehow miraculously not get hit by the startup), or they have to have a super fast, super long WD. The most times you'll bet punished for Nairing is probably by a character like Puff. If you miss with the startup, the top of your back is very exposed, and she will be able to very easily hit out with Fair/Bair etc.

I think I know what you're doing wrong, but i'd need to see some of your play. If you have some matches I'd like to see them if possible, in the meantime I'll look around for good and bad examples of Nair spacing from my own matches and hopefully get back to you later about it.

 

[Mera Mera]

11 frames isn't enough time to WD OOS and punish you, and that's with perfect timing. When you take into the account the jump animation, the air dodge animation, and most importantly the slide animation, I think we computed it earlier to be about 20 frames (somewhere in that ball park). The other fact is that if they are going to make up the space between that beginning and the end of Nair, you have to be moving towards them (since the startup can't hit them), or they have to be moving towards you (again, because the startup can't hit them for this illustration). They either have to be moving towards you (and still somehow miraculously not get hit by the startup), or they have to have a super fast, super long WD. The most times you'll bet punished for Nairing is probably by a character like Puff. If you miss with the startup, the top of your back is very exposed, and she will be able to very easily hit out with Fair/Bair etc.

I think I know what you're doing wrong, but i'd need to see some of your play. If you have some matches I'd like to see them if possible, in the meantime I'll look around for good and bad examples of Nair spacing from my own matches and hopefully get back to you later about it.

Ah... not quite what I mean. They don't have to wavedash out of shield because they didn't shield. After all I'm going for hitting with the back swing, so they have plenty of time to see said backswing coming right? If I had hit their shield, then they could punish by jumping out of shield, but that's not what I'm talking about. The fact that they are grounded isn't relevant because of shield, it's relevant because it means their burst range is still wide, and as such if I try to hit them with the back swing they can simply rush me (after the first swing passes first) and hit me when the tail is on the wrong side (frames 11ish through 22ish... or 11 - 30 if they approach slightly higher to avoid the back swing). Does that make sense? So they dash away from the first swing and dash back in before the second swing comes back around (and or simply attack the part of Zard that the back swing doesn't cover).

Edit: To clarify, only the tail has hitboxes during nair, so the idea is not for them to nullify the hitboxes (using shield), but rather to simply hit me where I have no hitboxes.

Edit2: Also this is mainly a problem when going for the back swing of nair. I think using rising reverse nair on a grounded opponent can be useful simply because it's fast, and thus the opponent is likely not to react to it in time. If they shield it, you're screwed, but that doesn't make it useless... honestly hitting a shield with any or Zards aerials puts you at a frame disadvantage (the same is true with most characters), so you have to take some risks when you approach and at least it's fast enough where they can't punish it on reaction (they have to predict you to shield in time, since even taking into account jump squat it comes out faster than reaction time).

And to back up the no frame advantage: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/ use this and look at JOE's frame data on Zard. L canceled end lag for all aerials is longer than the max shield stun Zard can give with said aerials... The only safety you can get is by being far away and hitting right before you land and L cancel. Even then, some characters might be able to punish by jumping out of shield (especially if they have fast, long range nairs/fairs, or if they intentionally shield facing away, bairs).

 

[Heroofhatz]

Ah... not quite what I mean. They don't have to wavedash out of shield because they didn't shield. After all I'm going for hitting with the back swing, so they have plenty of time to see said backswing coming right? If I had hit their shield, then they could punish by jumping out of shield, but that's not what I'm talking about. The fact that they are grounded isn't relevant because of shield, it's relevant because it means their burst range is still wide, and as such if I try to hit them with the back swing they can simply rush me (after the first swing passes first) and hit me when the tail is on the wrong side (frames 11ish through 22ish... or 11 - 30 if they approach slightly higher to avoid the back swing). Does that make sense? So they dash away from the first swing and dash back in before the second swing comes back around (and or simply attack the part of Zard that the back swing doesn't cover).

Edit: To clarify, only the tail has hitboxes during nair, so the idea is not for them to nullify the hitboxes (using shield), but rather to simply hit me where I have no hitboxes.

Edit2: Also this is mainly a problem when going for the back swing of nair. I think using rising reverse nair on a grounded opponent can be useful simply because it's fast, and thus the opponent is likely not to react to it in time. If they shield it, you're screwed, but that doesn't make it useless... honestly hitting a shield with any or Zards aerials puts you at a frame disadvantage (the same is true with most characters), so you have to take some risks when you approach and at least it's fast enough where they can't punish it on reaction (they have to predict you to shield in time, since even taking into account jump squat it comes out faster than reaction time).

And to back up the no frame advantage: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/ use this and look at JOE's frame data on Zard. L canceled end lag for all aerials is longer than the max shield stun Zard can give with said aerials... The only safety you can get is by being far away and hitting right before you land and L cancel. Even then, some characters might be able to punish by jumping out of shield (especially if they have fast, long range nairs/fairs, or if they intentionally shield facing away, bairs).

First of all, now that I get what you're saying, I agree about the RAR being vulnerable if they can dash away. The window is tight for them to punish it, but it's certainly within reason. Characters like Fox and Falcon can dash in a hit you, but I will say again, the window can be tight.

As far as the frame advantage is concerned, yes it is true that the max shield stun isn't as long as ending lag, but you also have to consider how fast it takes for a punish to be implemented. I think we calculated earlier in this thread that a typical WD OOS is about 20ish frames. I don't see that there is enough time for them to be able to execute a WD OOS and punish you quicker than you can L cancel an aerial and shield. Even if they just throw out an aerial, the spacing of the move makes it nearly impossible for it to be punished on block. I mean, it's almost two fox lengths between the end of the tail and the first hurt box.

Let me also just say that while we can count frames but the fact is that it is going to take a very advanced player with very strict timing to MAYBE hit you. I will concede that in theory, it is punishable, by a very select set of moves in very specific circumstances. In practice I don't think anyone will be able to execute consistent punishes on the backswing, feel free to prove me wrong though (Because that essentially means I have to figure out something else and develop the character ).

 

[Mera Mera]

First of all, now that I get what you're saying, I agree about the RAR being vulnerable if they can dash away. The window is tight for them to punish it, but it's certainly within reason. Characters like Fox and Falcon can dash in a hit you, but I will say again, the window can be tight.

The window ranges from tight to impossible to punish for characters who have neither fast moves with decent range, nor fast dash/air speed. For characters who have one of the those two attributes, however (which is most characters), I think the window is tight, but reasonable to punish consistently. This is of course assuming that they are grounded and not in shield at the time the tail of your nair is straight up.

As for jump out of shield for punishing late hit back swing, they have at worst 8 frames of advantage on you (8 frames if you land the frame you hit them... is that possible? maybe at worst 9 frames, their advantage? dunno). Anyways, that certainly does mean WD out of shield -> punish isn't going to happen, but that's hardly the fastest way to punish out of shield. I think Marth/Roy (4 frame jump squat and good range on fair and nair) can probably punish you reliably. Remember that since they shielded already, reaction time is not a factor. They already saw the nair and are ready to time their counter attack. Also consider that they can dash towards you and shield. Assuming that they don't notice nair unitl the first hitbox is out on frame 5 (and I think there are ques you are nairing before this, so that's being generous), they will be able to react and dash in on frame 20 (again being generous... Human reaction time is about .2 seconds or 12 frames, but for reacting consistently 15 frames is a good general rule of thumb). That gives them some time to dash in and put you at less than optimal spacing against their shield, and worse, it means their shield will be hit earlier than you expected (meaning more frame advantage since you won't be L canceling immediately after hitting them like you planned).

That all said, I have used nair in neutral countless times with success, so I think there are ways to use it that alleviate it's weaknesses in neutral (aka when they are grounded on the stage). We've probably mostly done these anyways without thinking about it, but it's good to know why they work/how they help, so we can understand and learn from when we do get punished, rather than be surprised and think it's a fluke. The ways to (probably?) safely use nair in neutral are:
- reverse retreating nair so that the opponent's dash speed is less effective at catching middle nair
- reverse nair when they are near(ish) the tip of their dash (dashing away from you) so that they have to go into a run to avoid the earlier part of nair / to get out of your range in general
- use nair's burst range to hit them before they can react

I think the latter two are probably best. The reason the later parts of nair are effective when they are in the air/not in neutral is simply because they lack options and speed by being in the air. When they are grounded and on the main stage, you have to be much more careful with nair.

To clarify: burst range is the range in which you can put a hitbox out before your opponent can react to you. With our 4 frame jump and the first hitbox for nair coming out on frame 5 of the move, reverse nair is one of our better moves burst range-wise, especially considering we can do it out of a dash. F-tilt/d-tilt probably have the most burst range, but they can only be used in limited situations.

I'll be honest, I didn't think through all that until this convo, and I'm not sure 100% of it is correct in practice, but I do think that it is decently well backed in theory. I can say with confidence that people can dash back and punish "middle nair" on reaction though, since it's happened to me several times, particularly against Marth and Fox (and a few times against other characters).

 

[JOE!]

Hm, once I get more free time, I definitely need to expand my pictures to show examples of technique.

like, a frame of zard's dash, jump squat, then aerial options with the same hitbox kinda style. RAR nair done low to the ground has bonkers range, especially given our fast dash speed (initial) and fast jumpsquat. You can essentially poke from across Yoshi's Story in about 15 frames and be in their face

 

[-Key-]

Anyone got any advice for the Charizard - Bowser matchup? I keep getting wrecked by armour and the range of his forward air. Also his down B makes it hard to follow up for kills after landing a launching move. Even if I can bait out the down B I have trouble punishing it.

After a certain height distance, it's useless to chase Bowser because of his Down-B. I generally just stay on the ground in that situation because people don't tend to Down-B unless you try to chase them vertically. One thing you can try is to bait out the Down-B by charging Fly but then cancel your vertical momentum by jumping as soon as possible so that you stay fairly close to the ground. Most players won't expect you to stay so low after a full charge, and you can even angle your trajectory so that you create enough space to avoid the Down-B but not so much space that you're too far away to punish. Even if you just stay on the ground and let him fall back down normally, you can still keep juggling with Jab/Utilt/Usmash/Up-B/etc.

Bowser's recovery is pretty bad so I try to get lateral KOs rather than KOs off the top. Ftilt and Side-B beat Bowser's Up-B so get him horizontally off the stage and then just stand at the edge and time those moves correctly (or jump off and intercept him with Side-B). There's not much Bowser can do in that situation. As far as the Armor issue is concerned, maybe try playing more patiently. Charizard has a few moves that outreach anything Bowser has, so make him come to you and then bait out his laggy moves. IIRC none of his Armor moves have very good range, so use your disjointed hitboxes effectively and you should stay out of harm's way. If you get him in the air at low percentages, you can combo him really well since he's so big and won't get launched very far away from you. IMO, Bowser is in many ways a wingless (and worse) Charizard, so think about what sorts of opponent tactics bother you the most and then use those yourself.

Bowser's Fair is a good move and you're going to have to respect that. I don't have any great tip for it other than recognize it's there and try to not put yourself in situations where he can get you with it. Don't get greedy and rush him only to get hit in the face with Fair. I feel that Charizard has enough advantage in the neutral game against Bowser that you don't have to go for broke when you're comboing/edgeguarding Bowser. It's ok to drop the combo or opt for a low-risk edgeguard and live to fight another day. If Bowser is approaching with it, Shieldgrab or space moves properly (RAR Nair). You'll figure out what safe spacing is against Fair with experience.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

P.S. Bowser's get-up attack from the ledge is stupid, so don't get caught by it. The Bowser I play against a lot uses it all the time.

 

[Mera Mera]

Anyone got any advice for the Charizard - Bowser matchup? I keep getting wrecked by armour and the range of his forward air. Also his down B makes it hard to follow up for kills after landing a launching move. Even if I can bait out the down B I have trouble punishing it.

I'll add that shield grabbing counters pretty much every approach Bowser has. Since he has no real approach when you are on the ground (since you will just shield grab him lol), be choosy about approaching him. His moveset is good at countering your approach, but you get to pick and choose when you do said approach since he can't really put on any pressure.

As for comboing upwards, listen to @ -Key-

 

[JOE!]

Flamethrower literally roasts bowser.

 

[caldw19940]

Recently gotten my hands on PM at long last (waiting for the stuff I needed to play because I'm from the UK and PAL PM doesn't exist yet)

I always like playing big heavyweight bruiser characters in other fighters and Charizard so far has been one I an loving. Much like other heavyweights in other fighting games like Gief I've noticed Charizard really needs to work his way around projectiles due to his size. Mario, Link and Lucas in particular have kinda stood out as a bit frustrating to get in on sometimes or at least feel like you have to move during the neutral game. I've already read the above discussion of Mario (which was very informative!) But what of combating Lucas and Link? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[-Key-]

Recently gotten my hands on PM at long last (waiting for the stuff I needed to play because I'm from the UK and PAL PM doesn't exist yet)

I always like playing big heavyweight bruiser characters in other fighters and Charizard so far has been one I an loving. Much like other heavyweights in other fighting games like Gief I've noticed Charizard really needs to work his way around projectiles due to his size. Mario, Link and Lucas in particular have kinda stood out as a bit frustrating to get in on sometimes or at least feel like you have to move during the neutral game. I've already read the above discussion of Mario (which was very informative!) But what of combating Lucas and Link? Any advice would be appreciated.

If you hit Lucas' PK Freeze on the initial upswing of a reversed Nair, you can often catch his approach with the delayed swing. PK Freeze is not very spammable, so you usually will be able to take care of it with reversed Nair. Fly is great for approaching while avoiding projectiles altogether, but it has its drawbacks too.

 

[JOE!]

Jab can eat Fireballs and PK Freezes and still go through to hit Mario/Lucas

 

[Heroofhatz]

Jab can eat Fireballs and PK Freezes and still go through to hit Mario/Lucas

It does take some careful spacing though, if you do it too early you'll get stopped by the projectile and not have enough time to re jab

 

[Tremendo Dude]

I find that Charizard's dash attack is rather effective for breaking through Lucas's projectile spam. Aside from that, timing your shields as you approach and jumping out of the shield to approach from above with a nair seems to work well for getting through projectiles, be they Lucas's or Mario's or Falco's. I've been trying to work on effective uses for wavedashing out of shield to approach, but I haven't had much success with it so far.

 

[caldw19940]

Thanks for the advice. Are there any characters in particular that seem to stand out as particularly bad for Zard? Yeah the projectile characters are annoying but they don't seem unstoppable by any means. How do you feel Zard does against the space animals?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

I have updated the OP and alphabetized the matchup names within color categories, and within the other two "not enough info" categories below it.

Later on I'll be working on a picture MU compilation that has a picture of every PM character on it, that will have you jump to the character's collapse section upon clicking. I've seen it once before in a Brawl MU thread but I need to steal it/find one from a PM thread.

If anyone knows a PM char's MU thread that has pictures up, let me know! Thanks!

Thanks for the advice. Are there any characters in particular that seem to stand out as particularly bad for Zard? Yeah the projectile characters are annoying but they don't seem unstoppable by any means. How do you feel Zard does against the space animals?

In the first post, any character with a red name is a particularly bad MU for Charizard. They're at the very top so they're easily accessed by Zards having trouble.

 

[SHIP]

After a certain height distance, it's useless to chase Bowser because of his Down-B. I generally just stay on the ground in that situation because people don't tend to Down-B unless you try to chase them vertically. One thing you can try is to bait out the Down-B by charging Fly but then cancel your vertical momentum by jumping as soon as possible so that you stay fairly close to the ground. Most players won't expect you to stay so low after a full charge, and you can even angle your trajectory so that you create enough space to avoid the Down-B but not so much space that you're too far away to punish. Even if you just stay on the ground and let him fall back down normally, you can still keep juggling with Jab/Utilt/Usmash/Up-B/etc.

Bowser's recovery is pretty bad so I try to get lateral KOs rather than KOs off the top. Ftilt and Side-B beat Bowser's Up-B so get him horizontally off the stage and then just stand at the edge and time those moves correctly (or jump off and intercept him with Side-B). There's not much Bowser can do in that situation. As far as the Armor issue is concerned, maybe try playing more patiently. Charizard has a few moves that outreach anything Bowser has, so make him come to you and then bait out his laggy moves. IIRC none of his Armor moves have very good range, so use your disjointed hitboxes effectively and you should stay out of harm's way. If you get him in the air at low percentages, you can combo him really well since he's so big and won't get launched very far away from you. IMO, Bowser is in many ways a wingless (and worse) Charizard, so think about what sorts of opponent tactics bother you the most and then use those yourself.

Bowser's Fair is a good move and you're going to have to respect that. I don't have any great tip for it other than recognize it's there and try to not put yourself in situations where he can get you with it. Don't get greedy and rush him only to get hit in the face with Fair. I feel that Charizard has enough advantage in the neutral game against Bowser that you don't have to go for broke when you're comboing/edgeguarding Bowser. It's ok to drop the combo or opt for a low-risk edgeguard and live to fight another day. If Bowser is approaching with it, Shieldgrab or space moves properly (RAR Nair). You'll figure out what safe spacing is against Fair with experience.

Good luck and I hope this helps.

P.S. Bowser's get-up attack from the ledge is stupid, so don't get caught by it. The Bowser I play against a lot uses it all the time.

Played friendlies with a Bowser main for like an hour straight this weekend and it went far less badly. I still like super jumping when they are above me but now I can usually dodge the down B and punish it if they missed the ledge. F throw then jumping offstage for the down air was surprisingly effective. Starting to figure out the correct spacing for bair/nair against Bowser's fair.
Something that hasn't been mentioned is that Bowser can break out of Usmash juggles with his nairs armour. But if you can get a read on them trying it you can just not usmash and grab or usmash oos.
So thank you for the advice guys. Gonna try to get in some games against one of the best Bowser's in the UK pretty soon and see how I do.

 

[JOE!]

go for utilt juggles, it is faster and reaches higher, leaving less wiggle room for him to Nair

Also, why are Fox and Mario "particularly bad MUs"? they're not in our favor, but not bad.

 

[BluntedMask]

Falco should switch spots with fox.

Lasers shut down zard so hard if you don't have platforms. Never ever go to FD against a Falco.

 

[JOE!]

stage choice makes the falco MU go all over the place. Like, we ruin him on Yoshi's Story since he cannot escape.

FD? Lol camp

 

[Heroofhatz]

Falco should switch spots with fox.

Lasers shut down zard so hard if you don't have platforms. Never ever go to FD against a Falco.

Well yeah if you go FD against falco you're being silly. However, you can still jump over to him, and if he pressure's your shield, up B OOS is invincible the first 3 frames and comes out frame 4, so it's a great anti shine option. Plus, any hit that knocks him down should mean a dead falco, especially if you get him offstage. Just flamethrower the ledge and watch the sadness as he desperately tries to SDI through the flames but just ends up dying. Fox can be a little worse because of his speed, but both MU's are pretty even considering how much they can win the neutral, but then just fall over dead if they get hit.

 

[metroid1117]

Well yeah if you go FD against falco you're being silly. However, you can still jump over to him, and if he pressure's your shield, up B OOS is invincible the first 3 frames and comes out frame 4, so it's a great anti shine option. Plus, any hit that knocks him down should mean a dead falco, especially if you get him offstage. Just flamethrower the ledge and watch the sadness as he desperately tries to SDI through the flames but just ends up dying. Fox can be a little worse because of his speed, but both MU's are pretty even considering how much they can win the neutral, but then just fall over dead if they get hit.

After getting massively laser camped by Kels' Fox at Exposure 10, IMHO this match-up isn't even considering that Charizard is at such a disadvantage in the neutral game.

 

[Heroofhatz]

After getting massively laser camped by Kels' Fox at Exposure 10, IMHO this match-up isn't even considering that Charizard is at such a disadvantage in the neutral game.

In all honestly, the lasers weren't worst part, Fox's speed is what makes the neutral game tough. It didn't really matter how much percent he tacked on with lasers cause you could pull a lot more damage off of a single combo. Zard wins pretty heavily in the combo game for the most part, and Zared winning the neutral game is pretty much just how hard you can bait the fox into doing an unsafe approach.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that his lasers gives him much advantage in the neutral game, it boxes him into a corner where you can pressure him specially until he is forced to approach you, and if he misses, you get a lot of damage on him. If he hits your shield, then you still have Up B OOS to deal with shine pressure. Being forced to give up stage positioning just to keep ahead in percent doesn't seem like much of an advantage in my eyes, specially with Zard's really fast jab and other useful tools to outspace and out prioritize fox. If his lasers gave him an approach I would agree with you, but not when they do no knock back.

Personally I haven't run into an especially campy fox, I usually struggle more with highly aggressive ones, but that might just be my play style.

Btw, good on beating Kels, that's not an easy thing to do :D

 

[metroid1117]

In all honestly, the lasers weren't worst part, Fox's speed is what makes the neutral game tough. It didn't really matter how much percent he tacked on with lasers cause you could pull a lot more damage off of a single combo. Zard wins pretty heavily in the combo game for the most part, and Zared winning the neutral game is pretty much just how hard you can bait the fox into doing an unsafe approach.

What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that his lasers gives him much advantage in the neutral game, it boxes him into a corner where you can pressure him specially until he is forced to approach you, and if he misses, you get a lot of damage on him. If he hits your shield, then you still have Up B OOS to deal with shine pressure. Being forced to give up stage positioning just to keep ahead in percent doesn't seem like much of an advantage in my eyes, specially with Zard's really fast jab and other useful tools to outspace and out prioritize fox. If his lasers gave him an approach I would agree with you, but not when they do no knock back.

Personally I haven't run into an especially campy fox, I usually struggle more with highly aggressive ones, but that might just be my play style.

Btw, good on beating Kels, that's not an easy thing to do :D

Thanks; if it weren't for the yolo up+B and DAir kills in game 3, I definitely would've lost.

IMHO though, you're underestimating Fox's neutral game. Lasers are pretty amazing because Fox has no incentive to approach you if he's already doing damage; instead of giving Fox an approach, he forces the opponent to approach and take risky options. When Charizard approaches, his options mostly consist of running in with a grab, DTilt, FTilt, jab, RAR shffl'd NAir (which I never use, unfortunately), and either shielding or CC'ing the incoming aerial. Re-watching my game with Kels on PS2, most of the exchanges we had in neutral either consisted of me over-extending with a grounded attack and getting punished or not attack early enough and eating a NAir or DAir, the latter of which leads into shine and USmash; laser camping does give up stage control, but Fox's speed allows him to either reliably get it back with NAir or bait out attempts at approaching. Jab does beat out Fox's approaches, but it's hard to jab through Fox's NAir, DAir, USmash, or dash grab on reaction.

 

[Remzi]

Any advice for edgdguarding ZSS? And whats the best approach for punishing tether recoveries in general?

 

[SHIP]

Any advice for edgdguarding ZSS? And whats the best approach for punishing tether recoveries in general?

You want to either have your nair swish through the spot in which they will tether or be holding the ledge so that they are forced to get the jump onto stage which can be punished by ledgehop fair. If you are super godlly you can ledge cancel the nair and then drop onto the ledge so that you can force the jump onto stage even if you miss. That's pretty hard to do though.

 

[Remzi]

You want to either have your nair swish through the spot in which they will tether or be holding the ledge so that they are forced to get the jump onto stage which can be punished by ledgehop fair. If you are super godlly you can ledge cancel the nair and then drop onto the ledge so that you can force the jump onto stage even if you miss. That's pretty hard to do though.

Thank you! Anyone know how many frames of lag that forced ledge jump has for tether recoveries? As in how many vulnerable frames are during that ledge jump?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Any advice for edgdguarding ZSS? And whats the best approach for punishing tether recoveries in general?

1. Grab the ledge
2. Force a getup
3. Ledgedrop Glide attack
4.????
5. Profit

 

[JOE!]

LedgeDrop Heat Wave is approximately 69x more swag