Charizard Matchup Discussion Thread

[Ali Baba 177]

So I main Lucario but also play Charizard pretty often and Im starting to even more recently. I think Charizards MU vs lucario is not that great, I could agree with neutral but its probably leaning in Lucarios favor as Charizard is a big target. Lucarios main issue is approaching safely , charizards largeness aids the effectiveness of aura spheres along with making him easier to combo especially for lucario.

I did a survey on the lucario boards and so far it looks like the consensus is that charizard is among the ten best MU's for Lucario.

Here is a copy survey that Id like to do for Charizard as well, if you could vote on what characters you feel you have a good understandning of the MU thatd be a great help!
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/YBXSBSW

 

[JOE!]

but we resist both his STAbs and hit back with SE Fire STAB

Real talk tho, it is in Live favor but it is not a bad MU. 40/60 at the absolute worst, leaning more toward 45/55

 

[bubbaking]

Sooo, I'm just going to re-iterate that there's no doubt that John Numbers is the best American Zard. Just this past weekend, he 2-0'd Rolex (including a 4-stock on game 2), and he beat Zero. I don't really see these kinds of stats on ANY of the currently active Zard players. He also makes it look like Zard just outright beats most characters.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Sooo, I'm just going to re-iterate that there's no doubt that John Numbers is the best American Zard. Just this past weekend, he 2-0'd Rolex (including a 4-stock on game 2), and he beat Zero. I don't really see these kinds of stats on ANY of the currently active Zard players. He also makes it look like Zard just outright beats most characters.

Can you post a video?

 

[BluntedMask]

https://www.youtube.com/user/WNYSmash

Got videos of the best zard all right here.

 

[metroid1117]

Can you post a video?

They can be found in the video thread, they were originally posted by LavaLatte.

Found all of the streamed John Numbers games from SBU 2.5. Best Dairs I've seen so far, interesting to watch =]

John vs. Rolex: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/519561590?t=6h06m24s
John vs. CT | Zero: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/519561590?t=7h22m45s
John vs. Mew2King: http://www.twitch.tv/smashstudios/b/519561590?t=9h09m05s

 

[LavaLatte]

Sooo, I'm just going to re-iterate that there's no doubt that John Numbers is the best American Zard. Just this past weekend, he 2-0'd Rolex (including a 4-stock on game 2), and he beat Zero. I don't really see these kinds of stats on ANY of the currently active Zard players. He also makes it look like Zard just outright beats most characters.

To be fair, if anyone's gonna beat Rolex, it's gonna be the guy that plays against him every other week. Just sayin'.

 

[bubbaking]

Yeah, but a 2-0? And a 4-STOCK? Really? Also, don't forget that he also beat Zero in the top 16 bracket, and he also 3-0'd Godot in his pool (who beat Phish-it twice in a row in that same pool) and 2-0'd Sol. Those are pretty stacked results. He could be a Zard who literally came out of nowhere and I'd still be saying he's the best Zard I've ever seen after all that.

 

[LavaLatte]

Trust me, I know he's fantastic, I sorted through five hours of streams for his games Here's to hoping we see more of him on streams and Youtube, his games were literally invisible to the internet before this past weekend. It'd be great to watch him vs spacies in particular - that's usually where most Zards get to show their stuff.

Anyway, back on topic - MewTwo and Roy feel like pretty tricky matchups for the big guy. Any tips on dealing with their superior range, and what feels like superior priority?

 

[DarkStarStorm]

And also what the Diddy Kong MU is like?

 

[JOE!]

Trust me, I know he's fantastic, I sorted through five hours of streams for his games Here's to hoping we see more of him on streams and Youtube, his games were literally invisible to the internet before this past weekend. It'd be great to watch him vs spacies in particular - that's usually where most Zards get to show their stuff.

Anyway, back on topic - MewTwo and Roy feel like pretty tricky matchups for the big guy. Any tips on dealing with their superior range, and what feels like superior priority?

Roy I think is more evenish, but he has some of the same weaknesses as Marth -and- Spacies: Getting below him is generally advantageous, and he can be juggled for days + offstage he is dead meat. Many of our moves can contend range-wise (Remember, the outer half of your tail is disjointed!) if you're trying to poke back at him (Except vs Ftilt, but that can be beat out by a well spaced Nair due to angles). So it's pretty much a spacing war then whoever gets that hit should be able to capitalize hard.

Mewtwo... I really have no experience in, sorry :/

 

[bubbaking]

Trust me, I know he's fantastic, I sorted through five hours of streams for his games Here's to hoping we see more of him on streams and Youtube, his games were literally invisible to the internet before this past weekend. It'd be great to watch him vs spacies in particular - that's usually where most Zards get to show their stuff.

Yeah unfortunately, we have not been able to stream or record many of our tournaments. However, it's funny that you say that because Numbers happens to be particularly bad against Foxes. After 3-1'ing Zero's Pit, he was 3-1'd by his Fox. When Rolex's Snake and MK don't work against Numbers, he usually clutches it out at our biweekly tournaments with Fox. Codi also usually beats him with Fox. Even I have 3-0'd Numbers' Zard with Fox before. It's an extremely bad personal MU for him. He's working on it, though.

Anyway, back on topic - MewTwo and Roy feel like pretty tricky matchups for the big guy. Any tips on dealing with their superior range, and what feels like superior priority?

Both Numbers and I have played this MU out quite a bit. I'm pretty sure that Zard solidly beats Roy. Their range is pretty similar but Roy gets juggled hard and he doesn't have a good answer to reverse nair. Offstage, he is trash and will probably die if he is forced to recover low. Mewtwo is a bit weirder. That MU seems kinda evenish, maybe Mewtwo's favor. Mewtwo's range is superior, but it isn't as disjointed as Zard's is. Mewtwo is faster and can harry Zard more easily, but Zard is stronger and will kill much earlier if he isn't gimped.

Edit: In that same stream archive where you caught Numbers' matches at Smash Brothers University 2.5, there should be a match of my Zard beating out Ninjalink's Roy before being destroyed by his Diddy. Also, elsewhere, there is a stream archive of the GFs of one of our biweeklies between Numbers' Zard and Emukiller's very proficient Mewtwo (Emukiller won).

 

[Ageha Mist]

Thanks for everyones advice and input in this thread!

I was wondering if anyone had any advice on the Captain Falcon matchup, my friends falcon bodies me every time. Been kind of treating falcon like spacies, since hes fast and falls fast, but it just seems like once falcon gets in, HES IN... i also have trouble with spacies in general, but ive been trying to practice with them more. But yea one of my friends mains falco and falcon and his falcon gives me the most trouble. Theres a lot of advice here about the spacie matchups that ive used effectively against spacies and somewhat against falcon, but im wondering if you guys think if the falcon matchup is similar? or are there other strategies specific to falcon that charizard could use?

 

[LavaLatte]

Rule #1: Get him off the stage. On the ground this matchup is very "touch of death"-esque, where both characters can combo each other for days. Falcon has very easy combos on Charizard's gigantic hurtbox. Offstage though, Falcon is just like anyone else. B-Throw -> F-Tilt near the edge is one way to do this. Use the sweetspot of D-Tilt to gimp him if he tries to Side-B back, and reverse Nair [last hitbox] if he tries to recover low. If he recovers high do w/e you want, with the ultimate goal of keeping him offstage.

Rule #2: Try to stay on even ground with him, if not below him. Avoid getting caught by U-Air juggles, get to the ground with either falling nairs or glide momentum mixups. Don't rule out topscreen kills - he's also juggle food if he's above you.

Rule #3: If all else fails, pick a small stage. Limit his ability to run around by taking him to FoD and Green Hill Zone, both of which are small and have low ceilings. It's much easier to keep him off the stage with these.

People with more experience than me:
BluntedMask vs. Gravy: http://www.twitch.tv/snowman/b/509326488?t=6h54m05s
*Zen vs. Shadow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rlkOYag7b8

Best of luck! These are just the basics of what I've picked up - at the end of the day it's still a fun matchup for both sides =]

 

[bubbaking]

Rule #1 pretty much applies both to Falcon and spacees. None of them can get through flamethrower and that is practically guaranteed to hit, so you can just throw that out, rob them of their jumps, and proceed to gimp them. It's way easier to do this to Falcon, of course. When you bthrow, if the opponent DI's in, you're guaranteed a DA or ftilt. If he DI's away, he's pretty much in an awful position to try to recover.

 

[JOE!]

Hm, been having a little bit of an issue keeping momentum vs MK's, any advice?

 

[BluntedMask]

Hm, been having a little bit of an issue keeping momentum vs MK's, any advice?

Attempt to stay grounded and get the most off of grabs. MK has a very slow tech roll so chasing him shouldn't be much of an issue.

A lot of his stuff can be CC at low % so try to abuse that a bit. If you jab him he will usually be forced into a teching position so try to get a dair in here and there.

Force him to approach if possible.

 

[Ageha Mist]

Thanks so much you guys! This helped a lot! was able to deal with falcon so much better after learning to do Nair over and over after letting go of the ledge and using Bthrow > Ftilt (thanks so much for this combo) and flamethrower more :]

I played another guy yesterday who was really good with sheik, I was able to deal with him fine by what Lava said about staying on even ground or stay under them (which actually seems to be good in general against a lot of characters). From my experience it seems that out-spacing her is the name of the game. Also it seems that letting sheik approach is the better option, although it may have been this guys rushdown playstyle, but I noticed that when I let sheik approach and just hit her with a random big move (Nair, side B, flamethrower, etc) it really shook her up and was able to capitalize off that. I was wondering if anybody had any additional advice about facing sheik?

 

[JOE!]

Sheik gets wrecked by our Jab from my experience

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Guys! I've asked this multiple times, and each time you ignore me! What is the Diddy MU like?!

 

[metroid1117]

Guys! I've asked this multiple times, and each time you ignore me! What is the Diddy MU like?!

I don't think people are ignoring you; on the contrary, I just don't think people have enough experience on the match-up to comment on it (like me, at least).

 

[RogersBase]

I've been using Charizard a lot recently and I've been getting absolutely wrecked by Pit.

 

[bubbaking]

Metroid is right. I've played Ninjalink once, but I don't think I could give you much advice off of that alone.

 

[JOE!]

We should probably organize this a bit more, maybe go through the MUs in the Op in order?

Fox was recently said to be slight disadvantage?

What about ZSS?

 

[Heroofhatz]

Guys! I've asked this multiple times, and each time you ignore me! What is the Diddy MU like?!

The Diddly MU is really hard. I played boss a few weeks ago and got pretty hardcore bodied. The key I think is to not try and beat him at the banana game, but pester him a lot with Nair, but be extra cautious since he can glide toss bananas OOS. Stay airborne as much as possible, try and get some platforms and honestly just Nair through them, it's pretty safe and you won't trip as much. Also, edge guarding him is crazy hard for some reason, the only thing I can say is to space a Dtilt in case he goes for the ledge or a Usmash if he goes high, then chase as normal.

Unfortunately Metroid is right, there unfortunately that many people that play the MU, and if I'm honest I've only played it a few times, but that's what I was able to take away from it.

I have the matches I played against him if you'd like to look at them, by the last one I was starting to figure it out, but otherwise I got bodied pretty hard. But who knows, maybe you'll get some insight out to it that I missed.

GF:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_em4BJewLY
WF:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SwIPq1X0o8

 

[JOE!]

The trick is to not even bother with the nanners and take him to a small, platform heavy stage

 

[Heroofhatz]

The trick is to not even bother with the nanners and take him to a small, platform heavy stage

There is something to be said for taking him to a larger stage as well, with a larger stage bananas take up less of the total room of the stage, on a small stage, he can cover a lot of the combos and pressures you can put him under with just two bananas. But definitely somewhere platform heavy.

 

[JOE!]

A smaller stage means you also cover that much more area as well, and limit the room he has to move around you.

It's kindof a mixed bag, but essentially anything with heavy platforms will give you more options than Diddy IMO

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Thank you all for your inputs. I'm putting the MU down for -2 for Charizard against Diddy Kong.
Again, I thank you. Now my next MU is: Donkey Kong, which I think is a Falcon archtype for Charizard. Even, both characters have similar advantages against each other and thus can effectively get 50% each hit. Even I say, unless I'm missing something.

 

[JOE!]

Uh, this is Zard vs DK, yes?

Also, -2 as in like, 40/60 Diddy?

 

[Toxicroaker]

Thank you all for your inputs. I'm putting the MU down for -2 for Charizard against Diddy Kong.
Again, I thank you. Now my next MU is: Donkey Kong, which I think is a fantastic MU for Diddy.
He can get out of whatever DK does, and because DK is so grounded bananas just do everything for you in this match. I think that this is Diddy's bread and butter MU.

Um... Wrong thread for Diddy MUs.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Uh, this is Zard vs DK, yes?

Also, -2 as in like, 40/60 Diddy?

Yeah. I think that's fair considering Diddy can fair camp and that Charizard needs to go to a platform stage to win.

Um... Wrong thread for Diddy MUs.

Oops, I meant Charizard.

 

[JOE!]

Charizard needs to go to a platform stage to win.

You do realize that only 1 stage in the entire game (except like, Training room) lacks platforms, yeah?

 

[Heroofhatz]

You do realize that only 1 stage in the entire game (except like, Training room) lacks platforms, yeah?

Yeah but even a stage like PS2 isn't ideal, more like Battlefield/Dreamland/YS would be preferable.

 

[JOE!]

Right, given like 90% of starters are platform heavy, then if you win you can van stages like FD and PS2, in practice the Diddy MU isn't as bad as it may seem

 

[BluntedMask]

I wouldn't focus too much on trying to win the banana game. Just treat the bananas as an obstacle that you gotta get past to get some fried monkey.

If you do have platforms you can honestly just stay on the top platform and just stuff his approaches with a nair or some ****.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

You do realize that only 1 stage in the entire game (except like, Training room) lacks platforms, yeah?

Yoshi's Island, Skyworld, Skyloft, Smashville, PS2, and PS1 have platforms, but they are not platform stages.

About Donkey Kong I'd say that it's even considering they can both run death combos on each other and their aerial game is fairly even. Although Char can halt approach with flamethrower, and has a better aerial chase game than DK.

 

[SHIP]

Yoshi's Island, Skyworld, Skyloft, Smashville, PS2, and PS1 have platforms, but they are not platform stages.

About Donkey Kong I'd say that it's even considering they can both run death combos on each other and their aerial game is fairly even. Although Char can halt approach with flamethrower, and has a better aerial chase game than DK.

Also greenhill zone spends 90% of the time with the platform not being relevant.

 

[CourageHound]

Nvm ignore this post

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Also greenhill zone spends 90% of the time with the platform not being relevant.

I forgot that one. I mostly use it for Zelda's telegame, it helps few other characters.
Charizard vs. DK?