Charizard Matchup Discussion Thread

[MaxThunder]

@Drike: assuming the rest doesn't kill you, at least...

 

[bubbaking]

Charizard's worst MU is probably not Mario, IMO. Jab and usmash beat any aerials Mario can attempt. The real problems in that MU are the fireballs.

Charizard's best MU is probably not Jiggs, IMO. Jiggs won't miss her rest combos and I don't think they're very punishable, even if Zard survives.

 

[JOE!]

Same time, Zard doesn't get wrecked by her.

By far, his Worst MU is probably Link.... and maybe now Samus as well since she presents similar issues?

 

[Sapphire Dragon]

Alright, I updated the first post with the new 3.0 Characters. Let me know if I missed any. Continue with the discussions

 

[bubbaking]

Link is not Zard's worst MU, and Samus most definitely isn't. People seem to forget that Zard can just jab away most projectiles, and he doesn't die until 170% against both of those characters. Samus especially can get messed up because she gets out-zoned by Zard's ridiculous tilts and jab, she gets out-CC'd, and to top it all off, Zard has great grab range and a great grab game, both of which have always proven to be Samus' weak spots since Melee. To make things even worse, Samus has a susceptibility to being juggled and Zard is one of the best jugglers in all of Project M. Can I make things worse? I most certainly can. Zard's aerial hitboxes are so huge that he can smack Samus out of her bomb jumps without getting hit himself. He can also edgeguard her tether easily with nair (or even dair), even if she max-ranges it, so Samus is practically forced to recover high if she can or have some really crazy recovery mix-ups if she's going low. Charizard also has great vertical killing power (Charizard has pretty good killing power in general) and Samus is super-floaty, so she dies faster-than-average to things like his usmash, sweetspot upB, uthrow, sweetspot fair, and sweetspot nair. It also doesn't help that Zard is a little awkward for Samus to combo off of a throw because he has the same anti-combo formula that Samus has; he's heavy but floaty, so it's harder to combo dthrow into hard-hitting things.

Believe me. I've tried the MU several times with NY's best Zard. It's actually not as terrible as my above ranting just made it sound, but I don't think it's even close to being one of Zard's worst MUs.

Zard's worst MU is probably either Fox or Sheik, maybe Falco. All of them simply abuse Zard's defensive features. They camp him and force him to approach, and then they completely mess up his shield. His huge hitboxes get shielded once and now they're inside messing him up. If Zard is forced offstage, these characters can end his stock really early. Also, Sheik can bthrow > tipper usmash Zard if she reads dthrow DI to kill Zard around 100%, which is devastating for Zard. All of those chars have exactly what you need to beat Zard: good projectiles, speed, and the ability to kill extremely early. Basically, they don't have to deal with Charizard's BS and they force him to play on their terms, which is extremely bad for him.

In this sense, Zard is a stupidly polarizing character. He has some really BS traits, like huge hitboxes, a very long lifespan, and a crazy punish game in almost all areas of the game; he can tech-chase, juggle, gimp, and kill extremely well off of a single hit/grab. Dare I say that Charizard actually invalidates some characters, but if you don't have to worry about those things (i.e. you play Fox, Falco, Sheik, Marth, etc), the MU is a cakewalk. Charizard sucks at approaching. He needs you to run into his big hitboxes and his big grab so he can do big damage and walk away with a big smile on his face, but his weaknesses are also incredibly glaring. That, my friends, is why Charizard sucks.

Good night.

 

[JOE!]

Tl;Dr:

Buff Flamethrower to be a zany approach tool for great justice

 

[bubbaking]

No, that move is one of the most 'overpowered' things Zard has in his arsenal right now. A lot of Zard's huge hitboxes, such as nair and jab, are really stupid and braindead, but it makes sense on a defensive char like Zard. His fthrower is an extremely big offender. It completely shuts down a LOT of chars' recoveries, including the spacees', and it stuffs most approach options as well. Right now, the move is ridiculously good at what it does and it does not need to be buffed. I think one buff Zard needs is the return of his ability to jump after he glides (but he gets nothing other than his upB back if he's hit out of his recovery) so he can avoid really stupid gimps and can compete via survivability.

Anyway, back to matchups.

 

[NightShadow6]

Mewtwo isn't fun too go against.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

Believe me. I've tried the MU several times with NY's best Zard. It's actually not as terrible as my above ranting just made it sound, but I don't think it's even close to being one of Zard's worst MUs.

.

Who is New York's best Zard?

 

[bubbaking]

John12346 without a doubt in my mind.

 

[RingWormTheDestroyer]

John12346 without a doubt in my mind.

Such turd.

 

[Yomi-no-Kuni]

Mewtwo isn't fun too go against.

yeah, i don't think so either... it might just be because M2 is really wierd though... and he's damn good at not letting you get back to the ground... that Uair and Utilt are stronk!!

 

[NightShadow6]

yeah, i don't think so either... it might just be because M2 is really wierd though... and he's damn good at not letting you get back to the ground... that Uair and Utilt are stronk!!

Yea, its just annoying have to predict at any second where he will go with the up b.

He can get out of a good number of Zard's combos as well. Shadow balls also wreck hard.

 

[bubbaking]

Lolz, why is Ness marked red for difficult? Ness isn't that difficult at all. Just avoid being in a position where you can be PKF'd. If you see Ness jump, dash under him. It's virtually a blind spot of his. If he's in front of you, jump. Ness can't really do much to Zard. If you're honestly scared of what he can do, just platform camp for a while. Ness can't really beat out anything Zard does; he's simply completely outprioritized. Once he's offstage it's a done deal. Nair destroys 100% of Ness' recovery options. This is simply a MU where you have to be confident in what both chars can do. You can't be scared and shield too much because then you will eat the PKF. Also, Ness can't get down from the air, so go wild with the juggling.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Same time, Zard doesn't get wrecked by her.

By far, his Worst MU is probably Link.... and maybe now Samus as well since she presents similar issues?

Who's worst MU isn't Link? lol

Lolz, why is Ness marked red for difficult? Ness isn't that difficult at all. Just avoid being in a position where you can be PKF'd. If you see Ness jump, dash under him. It's virtually a blind spot of his. If he's in front of you, jump. Ness can't really do much to Zard. If you're honestly scared of what he can do, just platform camp for a while. Ness can't really beat out anything Zard does; he's simply completely outprioritized. Once he's offstage it's a done deal. Nair destroys 100% of Ness' recovery options. This is simply a MU where you have to be confident in what both chars can do. You can't be scared and shield too much because then you will eat the PKF. Also, Ness can't get down from the air, so go wild with the juggling.

I find Ness to extremely easy as Zard. Now what do you guys think of the Zelda v Zard, or the Marth v Zard MUs?

 

[bubbaking]

Zelda vs Zard is slightly in Zard's favor. Marth vs Zard is slightly in Marth's favor. I've beaten M@V's Zelda in tournament, and both John12346 and myself have beaten The Moon's Marth in tournament (John's done it twice and he 4-stocked him once), on top of the fact that I play and team with a good Zelda very often and I often play Marth against John, so I think I have a pretty good handle of those MUs. John12346 has also beaten Emukiller's Marth.

vs Zelda - Zard is a big target, so he's easy to kick, and those kicks really cut down on his survivability. Luckily, Zelda is also very floaty, so after a few usmash juggles, she's also easy to kill with uthrow (or more usmashes). Zard's DD and tilts let Zelda out-zone Zelda, but if he tries to directly clash with Zelda's tilts and smashes, he will lose. Also, the Din's traps can severely hamper Zard's DD and tilt game, so it is vital that Zard stay close to Zelda to prevent them from coming out. Recovering is a pain because of Din's, but he can just go high and nair on the way down. Edgeguarding Zelda is also a pain if she has time to lay down Din's, but if she tries to teleport too close to the stage, Zard can just rush out and hit her out of the start-up. At the end of the day, what gives Zard the edge is that his DD game beats out Zelda's defensive game as long as there are no traps out and she's too easy to juggle and kill with uthrow and usmash.

How I think it should be played: Do not give Zelda a chance to lay down traps. If you're at a distance where you suspect she might think she's safe, start dashing in. If you see the Din's start up, DA her. If traps do get laid down, take a quick moment to jab or tilt them away if you have space. You don't want your space to be hampered so you can DD. If you have no space, then back off and start nairing. Once you get her in the air, do not let her back down. Zelda should not be allowed to approach you unless she already has Din's Fires up.

vs Marth - Zard is a big target (I said that before ), so he's easy to combo, and those tippers really cut down on his survivability (seems familiar ). What gets Marth here is how insanely easy he is to juggle. Once he enters the air, he needs a good Counter or dair read to get back down. Zard's nair will even catch his spot-dodge. If he's offstage, he's dead unless he recovers high. Marth can't sweetspot against Zard's nair or his flamethrower. So then why do I think Marth wins? Marth's on-stage game more than makes up for his ability to be juggled and his offstage game. That sword is really hard for Zard to get past. Double fair from Marth is practically a wall. Also, Zard can find himself being juggled, which is not something that generally happens to Zard. Marth's uair/utilt mix-up can keep Zard in the air for a long time and it beats out or trades with nair. Also, if Marth catches Zard not DIing fthrow well, tipper fsmash will cut his life short below 100% on most stages, which is devastating for such a heavyweight, and I've even seen Emukiller land fthrow > dair spike off bad DI. At the beginning of every stock, if Zard is grabbed, it's a free CG to the edge of the stage into a fsmash (which will be tippered if the DI is right) or a spike (bad DI).

Edit: Also, Marth can edgeguard Zard pretty hard. Dtilt and fsmash catch every low recovery, outside of sweetspotted upB, and fsmash also beats out Zard's glair. Zard's best bet is usually to go high, but he can be juggled on the way down, and if he's sent back off without a glide, it's curtains for him.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Zelda vs Zard is slightly in Zard's favor. Marth vs Zard is slightly in Marth's favor. I've beaten M@V's Zelda in tournament, and both John12346 and myself have beaten The Moon's Marth in tournament (John's done it twice and he 4-stocked him once), on top of the fact that I play and team with a good Zelda very often and I often play Marth against John, so I think I have a pretty good handle of those MUs. John12346 has also beaten Emukiller's Marth.

vs Zelda - Zard is a big target, so he's easy to kick, and those kicks really cut down on his survivability. Luckily, Zelda is also very floaty, so after a few usmash juggles, she's also easy to kill with uthrow (or more usmashes). Zard's DD and tilts let Zelda out-zone Zelda, but if he tries to directly clash with Zelda's tilts and smashes, he will lose. Also, the Din's traps can severely hamper Zard's DD and tilt game, so it is vital that Zard stay close to Zelda to prevent them from coming out. Recovering is a pain because of Din's, but he can just go high and nair on the way down. Edgeguarding Zelda is also a pain if she has time to lay down Din's, but if she tries to teleport too close to the stage, Zard can just rush out and hit her out of the start-up. At the end of the day, what gives Zard the edge is that his DD game beats out Zelda's defensive game as long as there are no traps out and she's too easy to juggle and kill with uthrow and usmash.

How I think it should be played: Do not give Zelda a chance to lay down traps. If you're at a distance where you suspect she might think she's safe, start dashing in. If you see the Din's start up, DA her. If traps do get laid down, take a quick moment to jab or tilt them away if you have space. You don't want your space to be hampered so you can DD. If you have no space, then back off and start nairing. Once you get her in the air, do not let her back down. Zelda should not be allowed to approach you unless she already has Din's Fires up.

vs Marth - Zard is a big target (I said that before ), so he's easy to combo, and those tippers really cut down on his survivability (seems familiar ). What gets Marth here is how insanely easy he is to juggle. Once he enters the air, he needs a good Counter or dair read to get back down. Zard's nair will even catch his spot-dodge. If he's offstage, he's dead unless he recovers high. Marth can't sweetspot against Zard's nair or his flamethrower. So then why do I think Marth wins? Marth's on-stage game more than makes up for his ability to be juggled and his offstage game. That sword is really hard for Zard to get past. Double fair from Marth is practically a wall. Also, Zard can find himself being juggled, which is not something that generally happens to Zard. Marth's uair/utilt mix-up can keep Zard in the air for a long time and it beats out or trades with nair. Also, if Marth catches Zard not DIing fthrow well, tipper fsmash will cut his life short below 100% on most stages, which is devastating for such a heavyweight, and I've even seen Emukiller land fthrow > dair spike off bad DI. At the beginning of every stock, if Zard is grabbed, it's a free CG to the edge of the stage into a fsmash (which will be tippered if the DI is right) or a spike (bad DI).

Edit: Also, Marth can edgeguard Zard pretty hard. Dtilt and fsmash catch every low recovery, outside of sweetspotted upB, and fsmash also beats out Zard's glair. Zard's best bet is usually to go high, but he can be juggled on the way down, and if he's sent back off without a glide, it's curtains for him.

With Zelda: Zard doesn't have to just worry about traps, as I have to remind people when dealing with Zelda. They also have to worry about Teledashing. Telebased Zelda's like myself are hard to deal with on the right stages. FD is a horrible stage for teledashing so Zard should opt for stages that hurt that part of her game. Also, Zard recovering high and coming down with nair? Bad idea, all Zelda has to do is SHFFLed Uair. With edgeguarding Zelda you should be worried about a technique called Diamond Diving, but I won't talk about that until I can have some lab time with it.
Marth: All I have to add is DON'T challenge double fairs! They can lead to dangerous heavy-weight combos such as: fair fair d-tilt grab f-throw f-smash.

 

[Oracle]

Link is definitely one of zards worst matchups. Hes too fat to outmaneuver projectiles and the boomerang sweetspotted will go through a lot of his moves. Honestly bombs and arrows are just as bad because of zard being so fat. It doesn't help that a lot of zards 'combos' are actually non guaranteed juggles, which link can get out of by mashing dair/nair. Idk about samus, there are really no good pm samus players yet. Falco also seems pretty bad, but i've been trying out platform camping with nair and it seems kind of hard to deal with? only real problem zard has is the lasers, which being on platforms helps get around. Falco literally can never touch zard's shield with aerials because of up B lol. Ness is tough, but doable because of your range. Just focus on avoiding pkf (zard can't sdi fast enough to avoid a followup) and baiting out fair. Fair will beat all of zards moves because its disjointed, but you can sheild or CC. Fox is bad but its fox so w/e, sheik is probably bad but idk. I think zard does well vs marth and a lot of floatier characters like peach, zelda, and maybe wario. As for mario, i thought it was pretty bad at first, but it turns out if marios spamming fireballs you can clank them with ftilt, which moves you forward so you can do it multiple times. A little better than jab because ftilt will hit right above zard's head to get the higher fireballs, which jab will not.

Also point of order: best ny zard is probably mask. Just sayin

 

[bubbaking]

Meh, I don't actually mind 'teledashing' that much. The move has too much start-up, and if I see it coming out at a distance from which I can't punish, I just nair or dsmash in place (sometimes I fsmash if I'm ballsy) because if Zelda comes anywhere near me, she's gonna get hit during her waveland lag. I treat Mewtwo somewhat similarly if I can predict his teleports but Mewtwo's teleports are MUCH more annoying and difficult to deal with than Zelda's.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

Meh, I don't actually mind 'teledashing' that much. The move has too much start-up, and if I see it coming out at a distance from which I can't punish, I just nair or dsmash in place (sometimes I fsmash if I'm ballsy) because if Zelda comes anywhere near me, she's gonna get hit during her waveland lag. I treat Mewtwo somewhat similarly if I can predict his teleports but Mewtwo's teleports are MUCH more annoying and difficult to deal with than Zelda's.

On stages like FD of course it's easy to predict. But when you're on Battlefield, FoD, YS, if the Zelda uses teledashing to herd you into traps, it's amazing. You need to see a Telebased Zelda. Sadly you'd have to fight one in person because lag messes me up.

 

[bubbaking]

I've played against Zhime a few times in person, and my friend who plays Zelda is starting to incorporate more teledashes into his play, but perhaps you're right.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I've played against Zhime a few times in person, and my friend who plays Zelda is starting to incorporate more teledashes into his play, but perhaps you're right.

There's a difference between trying to add Teledashes into your game and basing your game around them. Picture Falcon who can teleport. Not to say that Telebased Zelda's are better, they're just different.

 

[Ageha Mist]

I actually find the Ness match up very difficult as Charizard. My friend mains Ness and seems to have my Charizard all figured out. I do what I can to avoid PK Fire, but when I do get hit with it, hes always able to follow up with a combo that leaves me in a bad position if not killing me. Charizard is way too big and its really easy for Ness to combo him at low percents if you make one mistake.

Lolz, why is Ness marked red for difficult? Ness isn't that difficult at all. Just avoid being in a position where you can be PKF'd. If you see Ness jump, dash under him. It's virtually a blind spot of his. If he's in front of you, jump. Ness can't really do much to Zard. If you're honestly scared of what he can do, just platform camp for a while. Ness can't really beat out anything Zard does; he's simply completely outprioritized. Once he's offstage it's a done deal. Nair destroys 100% of Ness' recovery options. This is simply a MU where you have to be confident in what both chars can do. You can't be scared and shield too much because then you will eat the PKF. Also, Ness can't get down from the air, so go wild with the juggling.

I tried this strategy earlier today, and it seemed to work. The only thing that was off is that Charizard definitely does not have way more priority than Ness. A good majority of trades ended up in Ness favor. Id like to say Charizard is my main, but I try to play my other characters just as much, however I dont have nearly as many problems dealing with Ness as my other characters than I do as Charizard.

 

[JOE!]

I have no idea why, but I can't seem to handle a good ganondorf with my charizard (My squirtle and ivy can bop em tho). Is the trick to just be more patient vs them?

 

[Goast]

At first I thought Zard vs zss Was Undoable . However a nice thing about charizard in this MU is his grab game is kinda frustrating for zss. Mostly if you can navigate around jab shenanagans and misplaced side B's you can find yourself getting a lot of good throws and techchaces in off of miss-reads. It's a patient game of looking for a solid opening and capitalizing hard. Staying really close to her seems very effective as well

 

[Bamboo]

At first I thought Zard vs zss Was Undoable . However a nice thing about charizard in this MU is his grab game is kinda frustrating for zss. Mostly if you can navigate around jab shenanagans and misplaced side B's you can find yourself getting a lot of good throws and techchaces in off of miss-reads. It's a patient game of looking for a solid opening and capitalizing hard. Staying really close to her seems very effective as well

Indeed, a friend of mine is a ZSS main and the only way to take it out with my Zard is to grab as often as possible and work my way to take stocks by punishing.

 

[QraQ]

I'd say Link and Zelda are Zard's worst MU. The pressure Link applies with porjectiles, including his new ridiculous zair, allows for ease of approach and poke. Saying jab and nair fights them well doesn't change the amount of options Link has over Zard in this. I think Zard handles edge-guarding well against Link though, which turns the MU somewhat. Zelda provides too many option closers for Zard. Din's fire forces Zard to either fight the fire or space around them. Any large stage will leave Zard sectioned off to part of the stage nearly entirely. UpB canceling allows for easier approaches vs Zard, especially when Din's fire is an issue. Most people say the defensive shield and nair away tactic works well against Zelda, but I find that if you get caught taking a fire with nair, the resulting lag gives Zelda a strong opening for fair/bair.

 

[bubbaking]

Zelda is not that bad, IMO. Definitely not worst MU material. Once she's sent into the air, she can't get back down without drifting offstage or getting a lucky teleport read back to the ground. One jab is all it takes to make her life miserable. Large stages are not a problem. Just stay moderately close to Zelda. Even if traps do get put down around you, Zard's nair easily goes through and wipes out any traps around him without much risk.

Also point of order: best ny zard is probably mask. Just sayin

Best NY Zard (and probably best American Zard) is definitely John Numbers. He's actually taken a set off Rolex, which I think is more than can be said of any Zard out there. Nobody knows 'cause he doesn't travel.

 

[QraQ]

Zelda is not that bad, IMO. Definitely not worst MU material. Once she's sent into the air, she can't get back down without drifting offstage or getting a lucky teleport read back to the ground. One jab is all it takes to make her life miserable. Large stages are not a problem. Just stay moderately close to Zelda. Even if traps do get put down around you, Zard's nair easily goes through and wipes out any traps around him without much risk.


Best NY Zard (and probably best American Zard) is definitely John Numbers. He's actually taken a set off Rolex, which I think is more than can be said of any Zard out there. Nobody knows 'cause he doesn't travel.

I feel that with "Love Jump" and the hitbox on UpB coming out before her hurtbox gives her enough to battle against Char. One jab leads to trouble for 100% of the cast IMO so saying one jab for her doesn't say much. The point to the traps with nair were the fact that they have hitlag when you hit them with nair, leaving you vulnerable. I've caught Zards many of times trying to take out fire just to get combo'd in the process. Zard's lack of offense out of shield vs Zelda is palpable too.

I would not make the "Best NA Zard" claim on anyone who does not travel, even if they take a set off of Rolex lol. Plenty of non-traveling PM players who dominate their character w/o recognition.

 

[BluntedMask]

All you gotta do against zelda is navigate the minefield and RAR nair for a safe approach. Or just dash dance and bait out something if she doesn't have anything set up.

 

[bubbaking]

For upB, you can be hit out of it since the start-up hitbox does not come out on frame one and the hurtbox lingers long after the hitbox leaves but before Zelda gets to actually become invincible. I'm not saying Zelda's teledash is bad, but the move does have its weaknesses. One jab does hurt everyone, but anything that launches Zelda into the air especially hurts her because she can't get back down. She's way too floaty and dies too early off the top. I don't really encounter much hitlag when nairing Din's Fires. That and nair is very disjointed and covers Zard very well if you make sure to RAR and not FF until the final hitbox has ended. Zard's lack of OoS options is indeed a real problem. That's why I try to avoid being stuck in my shield. Zelda's not fast so she can't really punish a roll away. If she's behind Zard, he can nair OoS to punish the lag of anything Zelda does. I get Zelda's strengths in this MU, but I still think Zard has a slight advantage.

This definitely isn't Zard's worst MU. Zard vs Fox is much worse than this.

You don't have to travel to be the best player of a character. Most of the best P:M players are in NY/NJ anyway. There may be "plenty of non-traveling PM players who dominate their character w/o recognition," but I don't think any of them could beat a world-class top player like Rolex. <__<

 

[QraQ]

For upB, you can be hit out of it since the start-up hitbox does not come out on frame one and the hurtbox lingers long after the hitbox leaves but before Zelda gets to actually become invincible. I'm not saying Zelda's teledash is bad, but the move does have its weaknesses. One jab does hurt everyone, but anything that launches Zelda into the air especially hurts her because she can't get back down. She's way too floaty and dies too early off the top. I don't really encounter much hitlag when nairing Din's Fires. That and nair is very disjointed and covers Zard very well if you make sure to RAR and not FF until the final hitbox has ended. Zard's lack of OoS options is indeed a real problem. That's why I try to avoid being stuck in my shield. Zelda's not fast so she can't really punish a roll away. If she's behind Zard, he can nair OoS to punish the lag of anything Zelda does. I get Zelda's strengths in this MU, but I still think Zard has a slight advantage.

This definitely isn't Zard's worst MU. Zard vs Fox is much worse than this.

You don't have to travel to be the best player of a character. Most of the best P:M players are in NY/NJ anyway. There may be "plenty of non-traveling PM players who dominate their character w/o recognition," but I don't think any of them could beat a world-class top player like Rolex. <__<

That's a bold claim to make. It's not unheard of for people to come from nowhere and beat "world-class" players.

I don't see the problems Zard has with Fox. Nair outprioritizes most of what Fox has in the neutral game and one grab = Fox offstage which in turn = death to nair imo. Fox gets punished hard as a fast faller with usmash, utilt and jab.
I guess shine spikes are an issuefor returning to the edge but I hardly call it an MU win.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I guess I just see it different.

 

[bubbaking]

Well, you come get me when one of them beats Rolex.

It's fine; I respect your different opinion. I still feel like Fox is one of Zard's worst, if not THE worst, MUs ever. Zard's nair outprioritizes most of Fox's neutral game, but Fox has no reason to run into it. All Foxes should just be laser camping to force Zard to come in anyway, and nair, even with RAR, is not much in the way of an approach. Meanwhile, Fox can just nairshine to stuff most approaches and be fine. If Zard doesn't get a quick gimp, he can't reliably kill Fox 'till 150% on most stages, but Fox can kill Zard with usmash or uair at 100%.

Also, the same way you said, "One jab leads to trouble for 100% of the cast IMO so saying one jab for her doesn't say much," when we were talking about Zelda, I can easily just say, 'Most of the cast has a huge combo, if not a 0-to-death, on spacees, so Zard getting big punishments with usmash and jab is fairly standard.'

Also, Zard has practically NO way of getting out of shield if Fox is standing behind him (which is easy to set up via cross-up aerials and DAs) while spacing repeated CC jabs. If Zard rolls, it's a free usmash for Fox.

 

[JOE!]

Hm, is it possible to down b out of shield?

 

[BluntedMask]

A really risky thing to get out of pressure is to b reverse a glide oos so you can create some space.

Then when you feel you have enough you can wave bounce the glide so you are facing the other way.

 

[metroid1117]

Also, Zard has practically NO way of getting out of shield if Fox is standing behind him (which is easy to set up via cross-up aerials and DAs) while spacing repeated CC jabs. If Zard rolls, it's a free usmash for Fox.

If Fox NAirs your shield too high, then you can up+B OoS and use the invincibility frames to get through the shine hitbox. It's especially safe when you're below the center of BF or DL, since you'll land on the top platform and have less vulnerability. I'd use it only sparingly though, since it's not as safe as Samus' up+B OoS and Charizard generally gets punished harder than Samus since he's bigger.

 

[bubbaking]

Any character can do anything OoS but you have to get through jumpsquat to do it. That's how spacees shine OoS.

If Fox NAirs your shield too high, then you can up+B OoS and use the invincibility frames to get through the shine hitbox. It's especially safe when you're below the center of BF or DL, since you'll land on the top platform and have less vulnerability. I'd use it only sparingly though, since it's not as safe as Samus' up+B OoS and Charizard generally gets punished harder than Samus since he's bigger.

That is true - Numbers and I have recently been hitting the lab with this one - but it won't work if Fox is already rapid-firing spaced CC jabs. The jabs will beat upB out. At best, they clank, but if a jab connects at mid %'s, you're getting usmashed.

 

[metroid1117]

Any character can do anything OoS but you have to get through jumpsquat to do it. That's how spacees shine OoS.

For up+B's OoS, you only need to go through jumpsquat for one frame before going into the up+B animation. If done perfectly, you should be able to go into jumpsquat the frame after shield stun ends and then up+B on the frame afterwards, which has invincibility starting on that frame. IIRC, Charizard's jumpsquat is 5 frames, but you do not need to wait through all 5 frames before you can up+B OoS. If done perfectly, all up+Bs OoS should take the same amount of time (otherwise Bowser, with his 8 (?) frame jump-squat, would have a terrible up+B OoS).

That is true - Numbers and I have recently been hitting the lab with this one - but it won't work if Fox is already rapid-firing spaced CC jabs. The jabs will beat upB out. At best, they clank, but if a jab connects at mid %'s, you're getting usmashed.

Shine comes out faster than jab, so I'm not sure how jabs can beat out a perfect up+B OoS if shines can lose to a perfect up+B OoS. Up+B has invincibility, so when you say that jabs "will beat upB out", that either means that the jab hitbox completely wins over the up+B hitbox (which can't be true since you later say that they'll clank) or you're getting jabbed during the jump-squat, which means that you didn't up+B perfectly OoS unless you're getting hit on the first frame of jump-squat. Could you clarify what you mean by "jabs will beat upB out"?

 

[bubbaking]

For up+B's OoS, you only need to go through jumpsquat for one frame before going into the up+B animation. If done perfectly, you should be able to go into jumpsquat the frame after shield stun ends and then up+B on the frame afterwards, which has invincibility starting on that frame. IIRC, Charizard's jumpsquat is 5 frames, but you do not need to wait through all 5 frames before you can up+B OoS. If done perfectly, all up+Bs OoS should take the same amount of time (otherwise Bowser, with his 8 (?) frame jump-squat, would have a terrible up+B OoS).

Actually, I was replying to JOE's comment regarding downB OoS. I'm perfectly aware of how upB OoS works, but I'm pretty sure that downB's have to go through the entire jumpsquat. Shine OoS is still a fast option simply because it comes out on frame 1 after a 3 frame jumpsquat.

Shine comes out faster than jab, so I'm not sure how jabs can beat out a perfect up+B OoS if shines can lose to a perfect up+B OoS. Up+B has invincibility, so when you say that jabs "will beat upB out", that either means that the jab hitbox completely wins over the up+B hitbox (which can't be true since you later say that they'll clank) or you're getting jabbed during the jump-squat, which means that you didn't up+B perfectly OoS unless you're getting hit on the first frame of jump-squat. Could you clarify what you mean by "jabs will beat upB out"?

This probably stems from the fact that humans aren't perfect, but whenever I personally see Zard try to upB OoS against a jabbing Fox, he gets hit or the moves clank. Also, does the hitbox of Zard's upB overlap perfectly with the invincibility? In any case, Numbers and I have tested this option out a lot more. Fox can always just always just stop jabbing and shield if he anticipates upB OoS, which leads to a heavy punish, and at low %'s, this move isn't even strong enough to be safe on-hit. At mid %'s, if Fox techs quickly, he can still fully punish this. Zard's upB OoS is good, but those are some major flaws.

 

[DarkStarStorm]

I feel that with "Love Jump" and the hitbox on UpB coming out before her hurtbox gives her enough to battle against Char. One jab leads to trouble for 100% of the cast IMO so saying one jab for her doesn't say much. The point to the traps with nair were the fact that they have hitlag when you hit them with nair, leaving you vulnerable. I've caught Zards many of times trying to take out fire just to get combo'd in the process. Zard's lack of offense out of shield vs Zelda is palpable too.

I would not make the "Best NA Zard" claim on anyone who does not travel, even if they take a set off of Rolex lol. Plenty of non-traveling PM players who dominate their character w/o recognition.

Prepare to have the Charizard MU changed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5CNsBBPnhEI

While I'm here it's worth mentioning that I am making a MU chart for all of the characters. Could you guys help me with the Charizard MUs? First off, Diddy Kong.