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Character Weaknesses

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 18, 2012
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Mario has range/disjoint issues, poor grab range makes it hard to land, his approaching is pretty linear and not as threatening to the mobile ground characters, average-ish problem of getting trapped on the edge and stuck above certain large Uairs, mmm that's all I can think of now

The Mario approaching "myth" I think is the biggest misconception about the character.
Idk if you know but his neutral game was buffed. The devs say Mario is above average at everything just not amazing in one area. His approach is pretty good now. His fireballs have less lag, d-tilt is invincible at the beginning, and they gave his dash dance more range. Also the cape and up-b on the ground have deceptive range. So his approach is definitely not linear. He can mix it up. Disjoints and grab range are a problem.

Next is Luigi.
 

Jolteon

I'm sharpening my knife, kupo.
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When close to the stage yes but far no. Plus a lot chars can hit him during the start-up. Anyways Luigi's weaknesses.

His recovery is fine when you're far (you can't even react and hit the start-up of his recovery when he up+bs from far away, which is a big plus), he has a load of mix-up options and unlike most recoveries in the game you have to guess where he's going since his options all have very little end-lag, the only time his recovery is ever "bad" is when you up+b below the stage and can't hug the wall which tends to only happen if you DI terribly or get hit by a move like Sheik's fair at a high percent.
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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413
Tha
His recovery is fine when you're far (you can't even react and hit the start-up of his recovery when he up+bs from far away, which is a big plus), he has a load of mix-up options and unlike most recoveries in the game you have to guess where he's going since his options all have very little end-lag, the only time his recovery is ever "bad" is when you up+b below the stage and can't hug the wall which tends to only happen if you DI terribly or get hit by a move like Sheik's fair at a high percent.
That's what was talking about but if I get grab I can toss him off bair him 2x and done.
Again Luigi's weaknesses
 

CyberZixx

Smash Lord
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I'm with Jolteon. While possible to gimp space animals their recovery is really underrated. It is hardly bad, it is really good in fact. One of the best in melee.
 

Pwnz0rz Man

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Luigi's weaknesses include an inferiority complex brought on by his brother clearly being more popular and his overall cowardice.

In all serious though, I'd say his most glaring weakness is his abysmal air speed.
 

Nemiak temp

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 24, 2013
Messages
178
No Fox is more fun to talk about because he's awesome. Luigi has one approach basically. Wavedash in - Ftilt/Dsmash/uptilt etc. Sometimes Luigi tornado can be used to approach and can outprioritize some attacks but is more punishable than any other approach. Luigi is amazing in all other aspects though, his combo game is stupid good once he's in. Has high priority on everything and while pretty linear he has an amazing recovery. He'll always struggle with approaching unless some drastic changes are made to his physics which I don't think is a good idea. But luigi is da bess
 

Viceversa96

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Luigi's weaknesses include an inferiority complex brought on by his brother clearly being more popular and his overall cowardice.

In all serious though, I'd say his most glaring weakness is his abysmal air speed.
I'm talking against other characters.
 

Nemiak temp

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 24, 2013
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178
Well yeah it goes hella far and Nair. C'mon bro. Sure it's linear and easily gimpable but you can recover from just about anywhere and hope you don't get gimped.
 

~Frozen~

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Well yeah it goes hella far and Nair. C'mon bro. Sure it's linear and easily gimpable but you can recover from just about anywhere and hope you don't get gimped.

If a recovery is easily gimpable, then that doesn't make it amazing or even good.
 

Vashimus

Smash Master
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Jan 1, 2013
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Luigi, IMO, is around mid-tier ish. He has a lot of really good tools, but also struggles with a lot of matchups. And his recovery, although not terrible, pales in comparison to a lot of other characters. But he has great combo ability and its hard for other characters to combo him as well. He can KO effectively as well. Some matchups are disastrous though and he has trouble approaching. (Try approaching a Nikita spamming Snake with Luigi and let me know how that goes).

tl:dr
Strengths: KO ability, combos fast fallers well
Weaknesses: Recovery isn't great, has difficulty approaching
 

Nemiak temp

Smash Apprentice
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Jan 24, 2013
Messages
178
Idk about that argument...It's one of the more linear recoveries in the game but in terms of distance it's one of the best. His recovery as a whole isn't that good but for anyone to complain about it is just absurd
 

Paradoxium

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All right since peach is ****ing boring as hell lets move it on to Metaknight. Great recovery, I think? Can someone confirm this?
 

CyberZixx

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mobility for sure with peach. she is slow and thus can't chase as well as say falcon. Plus she can be prone to top platform abuse as she can't cover it well.
 

BTmoney

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@OP

Don't add your own interpretation of a character's weakness if you want this to be objective or worthwhile at all. Fox's only weakness is not how hard he gets combo'd and gimped. Saying that's it and ignoring everything else is pretty shortsighted.
 

NightShadow6

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Feb 2, 2009
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If were still on Meta Knight, he can get zoned out pretty damn hard with projectiles.

None of his moves are able to go through that **** so you need pure movement. (He also gets combo'd to oblivion when hit)
 

DMG

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That's all I have to add about Wario
 

Kink-Link5

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@OP

Don't add your own interpretation of a character's weakness if you want this to be objective or worthwhile at all. Fox's only weakness is not how hard he gets combo'd and gimped. Saying that's it and ignoring everything else is pretty shortsighted.
It's shortsighted on both ends of the spectrum too. "getting comboed" isn't an inherit weakness. If that is the character's "only" "weakness," then Fox would never be comboed in the first place because he'd never get hit because his moves and movement game would always outclass other options.



Characters don't have straightforward weaknesses unless they have a fundamentally polarizing design (Ness, Zelda). Weaknesses come in the form of per-move basises and what moves are more effective than each other in certain situations. That's how characters get hit in the first place, and that's why matchups swing one way or the other. Ness's recovery isn't his weakness, his tiny limbs and awkward stage game are weaknesses.

I went over the concept before on Smashmods I think, but there are weaknesses, and there are weakness "multipliers," or things that end up being abused as a result of weaknesses.

Strengths/Weaknesses:

How fast a move starts up
Move range (Disjoint)
Move coverage (Relative to the character's hurtbox)
Other priority aspects (Invincible frames, super armor, transcendent priority)
Move safety (End lag mostly, but things like mobility can make moves more safe)
Move damage (regarding shield stun)
Knockback (Regarding beating crouch canceling or not)

Not weaknesses but are things that get abused because of weaknesses:

Ease of being comboed
Lightness
Bad recovery

Similarly, Not strengths, but things that capitalize from your strength coming over their weakness:

Move damage (regarding hitting an opponent)
Having combos
Gimp options
Kill options


Think of it as "Does it help me land a hit on my opponent from netural? It's a strength." "Does something beat this move from neutral? That's the move's weakness."
 

IhaveSonar

Smash Journeyman
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Jun 5, 2011
Messages
268
Squirtle lacks range in all categories, allowing him to be easily zoned out by sword-wielding fiends.

Ivysaur's recovery, while potent, does allow for easy interception while she is tethering to the ledge, and her CQC game is somewhat subpar.
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 18, 2012
Messages
413
@OP

Don't add your own interpretation of a character's weakness if you want this to be objective or worthwhile at all. Fox's only weakness is not how hard he gets combo'd and gimped. Saying that's it and ignoring everything else is pretty shortsighted.
Well that was a part of the "list of Fox's weaknesses are........" joke
 

JOE!

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These topics are going by way too fast, and the OP needs some CSS... er, BBcoding to make it not a mesh of words.
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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Jun 18, 2012
Messages
413
Anyways no one told me what Wario suffers from. C'mon guys. All I know is that his recovery is **** but what else?
These topics are going by way too fast, and the OP needs some CSS... er, BBcoding to make it not a mesh of words.
I agree I'll fix that.
 

Viceversa96

Banned via Warnings
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Messages
413
These topics are going by way too fast, and the OP needs some CSS... er, BBcoding to make it not a mesh of words.
JOE! I know what you're trying to say.But I'm trying to fill these blanks as fast as I can, so we have a foundation. Then work off that and add more.
Link's?
 

BTmoney

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It's shortsighted on both ends of the spectrum too. "getting comboed" isn't an inherit weakness. If that is the character's "only" "weakness," then Fox would never be comboed in the first place because he'd never get hit because his moves and movement game would always outclass other options.

Characters don't have straightforward weaknesses unless they have a fundamentally polarizing design (Ness, Zelda). Weaknesses come in the form of per-move basises and what moves are more effective than each other in certain situations. That's how characters get hit in the first place, and that's why matchups swing one way or the other. Ness's recovery isn't his weakness, his tiny limbs and awkward stage game are weaknesses.

I went over the concept before on Smashmods I think, but there are weaknesses, and there are weakness "multipliers," or things that end up being abused as a result of weaknesses.
Basically, I agree with you. Putting moves and attributes in a vacuum won't mean much unless you add weight and context to it. But I'm not sure if this thread wants things in a vacuum or not.

For example, the fact that uthrow->uair can be SDI'd is without a doubt an issue for Fox. But it's not all that pertinent when Fox has his insane movement, moveset, and shield "pressure" that allow him to get grabs more easily than most other characters. That and you aren't going to SDI every uair anyway.

It's way easier to get grabs with Fox than say Mario. If Mario's dthrow/uthrow->fair could be SDI'd (hypothetically if it were a multi-hit move) with even the same frequency as Fox's uthrow->uair it'd be a bigger flaw for Mario.
 
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