The_NZA
Smash Lord
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...I find it confusing when you use high level play in a sentence that neglects to talk about AGT in reference to the links.
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Character Weaknesses
- Thread starter Viceversa96
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Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Yes the AGT is good for gaining more distance but I still see plenty of Links get edgeguarded easily. Never said Link's recovery is bad. Just predictable. Meta Knight's is unpredictable because he has Up b, tornado, side b, and down b.
BigHairyFart
Salty Supreme
No, AGT combined with the ability to pull a bomb out practically whenever you want allows Link/T. Link to change positions, mix up recovery, and send out non-clankable projectiles for the enemy to deal with.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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I guess I'm thinking every char is Mario since Mario can cape everything Link does off stage. Against most chars Link's recovery is good.
Sanity's_Theif
Smash Ace
Link's recovery is good at first when people don't know how to deal with it, but once people get used to it, they realize when Link starts pulling out a bomb, they get a free edgeguard hit on Link because he takes forever to pull the damn thing out
And if you use the hookshot, forget it you're almost certainly dead, Link comes towards the stage at the same angle every time he uses it, once people learn that angle it's so easy to punish, you have to mix up what you do to recover with Link a lot, I'm not saying his recovery is bad, it's just not as easy for Link to get back on the stage as most people think
Key is matchup experience, my buddy Temp gimps the crap out of my Link but I can still 2 or 3 stock him sometimes, however, against Zoso who's been a melee main a long time and he's really damn good, he got me down to 1 stock every time when we last played, but he couldn't gimp my Link for crap because he didn't know how to deal with the tether(he doesn't play P:M much)
shadow0x0cloud
Smash Apprentice
Okay all of MK's specials help for recovery. On the other hand, almost all of MK's specials suck **** onstage. Get a little give a little.
Tink has a wall jump, AGT, and tether, plus an Up-B thats strong as hell. Not to mention that there are many walled stages in this game, how is Tink's recovery predictable?
Link has similar but its slightly worse, but his up-b does go through the stage which I can guarantee has messed with everyones gimp at some point in their smash history.
What? if you cape my bomb back i can AGT for free. If it hits me i can up-b again. Swating it back is probably one of the worst things to do because mario gets no set up afterwards.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
MK's specials are alright on stage. Cape is great for tech chasing and Loop is great OOS.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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What are you suppose to do after u've commited an Up-b on stage
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Exactly. Summed it up perfectly
Burnsy
Smash Lord
Edge cancel? If it's a stage with platforms that's a pretty likely scenario. He could also maybe reverse it in case they are trying to read his up-b OoS.
*Edit*
Sorry, meant ledge cancel.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
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I mean this for Brawl as well. Either in P:M/Brawl, you're in the middle of say FD. Do you glide more and then press B to not receive landing lag or something I have no clue how it works in either game concerning the gliding and the cancelling and the attacking
Fortress
Smash Master
[collapse=Original Post]
I'd definitely like to expand on what you have. It's an interesting topic to be sure.
Mario:
-Not particularly excellent at anything.
-Tornado recovery, while a decent attack/recovery option, can be spike easily, and takes some serious mashing
-Most moves sport a short range
Luigi:
-Extremely floaty and unwieldy if proper technique isn't used
-Like Mario, suffers from a lack of ranged options beyond tilts
-Sole projectile takes long to wind up, and has a high ending lag
-Most aerials, while very powerful, lack lasting hitboxes (not so much a weakness than it is a reason to practice)
Peach:
-Projectile takes a while to ready
-Some attacks, namely smashes, have 'tells', and can be easy to avoid
-Has a high hangtime like Luigi; prone to attack if left in the air for too long
-Poor recovery options under the stage when just Up+B won't cut it (not that it needs fixing)
Bowser:
-High endlag on attacks; L-Cancelling aerials is a must for Bowser mains
-Can be easily punished once off of the stage; projectiles such as Link's arrows can get Bowser to a distance at which his recovery is useless
-Lacks the ability to make use of techniques such as the wavedash
Wario:
-Side+B Up+B recovery 'combo' is predictable, and rather slow; prone to being spiked
-Little to no options on a missed D-air (though, it's a risk vs reward thing, not a weakness)
-Tilt game is a little slow, and combos can be tricky to string together
-The Waft can be completely stomped out if used and hit immediately afterwards, despite its extremely long charge time
Link:
-Suffers from some slow attacks, despite his size
-Projectiles, while very useful, can be easily blocked if not used properly
-Most attack options need to start from a short distance; options up close are sluggish, and easy to avoid.
-Off-stage options are slow, and potentially fatal to the airborne Link
-Recovery game isn't as accessible to newer players
Toon Link:
-Mostly the same as Link
-Projectiles lack the 'oomph' of Link's for the most part; and are slower, as well
-Boomerang is a more difficult tool with which to harass and approach with, as it is slower, has a longer range, and as such takes longer to reach Toon Link
-recovery is even less feasible from too far away
Sheik:
-Falls relatively quickly
-Lacks a strong recovery game
-A technical character that can be taken advantage of when not used to fullest potential
-Ability to transform into Zelda could be construed as a weakness if the player using Sheik does not take advantage of what Zelda can bring to the table
-Projectile game takes a charge to benefit strongly from, and can be blocked easily
Zelda:
-Same issue with hangtime as other floaties; presents opportunities for being a target when airborne
-Precise timing required to take advantage of aerial potential (though, again, not a weakness, just more of something to practice)
-Attacks are rather lengthy and slow
-Very easy to pressure once approached
Ganondorf:
-Does not have a third fist
Captain Falcon:
-Fast falling speed leads to potential low-percent deaths
-Fast falling speed eases combo potential for other characters
-Difficult to control without practice
-No zoning options; moves with long reach are slow for the most part
-Little options outside of sheer movement power to deal with projectiles
-Read as: "Not Ganondorf"
Fox:
-Same drawbacks as with other fastfallers
-Tough to control sheer speed without practice
-Recovery, though improved, is limited in application, and easily stopped
-Limited options when returning to stage
-Shield size is small
-Full potential is difficult to take advantage of; very technical abilities
Falco:
-Nearly the same drawbacks as Fox, save for an even worse recovery, in terms of recovery distance
-Some attacks lack the sheer power of Fox's
-Like Fox, attacks lack the reach of other characters, and can have trouble dealing with zoning and stage control
Wolf:
-Classic spacie problems with fall speed, but makes up for it with smoother combos, and a more accessible game
-Recovery options, while slightly varied in comparison to Fox/Falco, is still somewhat limited
-Blaster bolt is slower, requiring more deliberate timing and use
-With more significant reach on attacks comes a somewhat more sluggish game than Fox/Falco
Jigglypuff:
-Limited options against zoning and stage control, save for power of movement
-Relatively easy to kill with sheer force, as opposed to edge control
-Most attacks lack significant force, relying on chasing and proper combo game
-Ground game is limited in application; relies a bit on aerial combat
-Special game is largely outused by Normal game; mostly in part by lengthy Specials that require a charge, precise spacing, becoming immobile, or a combination of any of those
Pikachu:
-Has trouble dealing with zoning and ranged pressure
-Recovery is either predictable in the side Special, or potentially dangerous in that the up Special could leave you dangling helplessly above the stage if a ledge sweetspot is missed
-Most attacks lack significant range
-off-stage play is limited by somewhat-fast falling speed and limited recovery options
Lucario:
-Does not deal with zoning or pressure very well
-Most attacks have a very high endlag; misses can be taken advantage of easily
-Hard-hitting attacks are slow, and of little use without first wracking up large amounts of damage through combos
-Recovery is quirky; can easily end up under stages such as Norfair if not careful
-Most attacks lack significant reach that characters such as Link and Marth can take advantage of
Pokemon Trio:
-I don't have experience with them, or extensive experience against them. Hopefully somebody else knows more about them than I would.
Ike:
-Doesn't deal with range or stage control very well
-Attacks, while powerful, are sluggish; endlag issue comparable to Lucario and Wolf's
-Recovery from a distance is limited; Quickdraw doesn't always get there
-Gimpable recovery
-"Prepare yo'self" F-Smash not in 2.6b, lacks intimidation and swagger he otherwise had (no sympathy for other players; while hailing from a great game and being a great character, can be kind of a prude to people outside of his circle)
-Somewhat predictable game
Marth:
-Same issues with projectiles as Ike, but has an easier time due to movement speed
-Lacks the same potential with jab that Ike or Mario has
-Recovery options are predictable and limited
-No projectile options; range is solely derived from sword sweeps
Meta Knight:
-Struggles against zoning
-Recovery options, while varied well, are somewhat predictable
-Light weight can lead to quick deaths, while faster falling speed leads to being combo'd more often
I've typed so much, and I want to stop for now. That's just my take on those characters.
[/collapse]
I'd definitely like to expand on what you have. It's an interesting topic to be sure.
Mario:
-Not particularly excellent at anything.
-Tornado recovery, while a decent attack/recovery option, can be spike easily, and takes some serious mashing
-Most moves sport a short range
Luigi:
-Extremely floaty and unwieldy if proper technique isn't used
-Like Mario, suffers from a lack of ranged options beyond tilts
-Sole projectile takes long to wind up, and has a high ending lag
-Most aerials, while very powerful, lack lasting hitboxes (not so much a weakness than it is a reason to practice)
Peach:
-Projectile takes a while to ready
-Some attacks, namely smashes, have 'tells', and can be easy to avoid
-Has a high hangtime like Luigi; prone to attack if left in the air for too long
-Poor recovery options under the stage when just Up+B won't cut it (not that it needs fixing)
Bowser:
-High endlag on attacks; L-Cancelling aerials is a must for Bowser mains
-Can be easily punished once off of the stage; projectiles such as Link's arrows can get Bowser to a distance at which his recovery is useless
-Lacks the ability to make use of techniques such as the wavedash
Wario:
-Side+B Up+B recovery 'combo' is predictable, and rather slow; prone to being spiked
-Little to no options on a missed D-air (though, it's a risk vs reward thing, not a weakness)
-Tilt game is a little slow, and combos can be tricky to string together
-The Waft can be completely stomped out if used and hit immediately afterwards, despite its extremely long charge time
Link:
-Suffers from some slow attacks, despite his size
-Projectiles, while very useful, can be easily blocked if not used properly
-Most attack options need to start from a short distance; options up close are sluggish, and easy to avoid.
-Off-stage options are slow, and potentially fatal to the airborne Link
-Recovery game isn't as accessible to newer players
Toon Link:
-Mostly the same as Link
-Projectiles lack the 'oomph' of Link's for the most part; and are slower, as well
-Boomerang is a more difficult tool with which to harass and approach with, as it is slower, has a longer range, and as such takes longer to reach Toon Link
-recovery is even less feasible from too far away
Sheik:
-Falls relatively quickly
-Lacks a strong recovery game
-A technical character that can be taken advantage of when not used to fullest potential
-Ability to transform into Zelda could be construed as a weakness if the player using Sheik does not take advantage of what Zelda can bring to the table
-Projectile game takes a charge to benefit strongly from, and can be blocked easily
Zelda:
-Same issue with hangtime as other floaties; presents opportunities for being a target when airborne
-Precise timing required to take advantage of aerial potential (though, again, not a weakness, just more of something to practice)
-Attacks are rather lengthy and slow
-Very easy to pressure once approached
Ganondorf:
-Does not have a third fist
Captain Falcon:
-Read as: "Not Ganondorf"
Fox:
-Same drawbacks as with other fastfallers
-Tough to control sheer speed without practice
-Recovery, though improved, is limited in application, and easily stopped
-Limited options when returning to stage
-Shield size is small
-Full potential is difficult to take advantage of; very technical abilities
Falco:
-Nearly the same drawbacks as Fox, save for an even worse recovery, in terms of recovery distance
-Some attacks lack the sheer power of Fox's
-Like Fox, attacks lack the reach of other characters, and can have trouble dealing with zoning and stage control
Wolf:
-Classic spacie problems with fall speed, but makes up for it with smoother combos, and a more accessible game
-Recovery options, while slightly varied in comparison to Fox/Falco, is still somewhat limited
-Blaster bolt is slower, requiring more deliberate timing and use
-With more significant reach on attacks comes a somewhat more sluggish game than Fox/Falco
Jigglypuff:
-Limited options against zoning and stage control, save for power of movement
-Relatively easy to kill with sheer force, as opposed to edge control
-Most attacks lack significant force, relying on chasing and proper combo game
-Ground game is limited in application; relies a bit on aerial combat
-Special game is largely outused by Normal game; mostly in part by lengthy Specials that require a charge, precise spacing, becoming immobile, or a combination of any of those
Pikachu:
-Has trouble dealing with zoning and ranged pressure
-Recovery is either predictable in the side Special, or potentially dangerous in that the up Special could leave you dangling helplessly above the stage if a ledge sweetspot is missed
-Most attacks lack significant range
-off-stage play is limited by somewhat-fast falling speed and limited recovery options
Lucario:
-Does not deal with zoning or pressure very well
-Most attacks have a very high endlag; misses can be taken advantage of easily
-Hard-hitting attacks are slow, and of little use without first wracking up large amounts of damage through combos
-Recovery is quirky; can easily end up under stages such as Norfair if not careful
-Most attacks lack significant reach that characters such as Link and Marth can take advantage of
Pokemon Trio:
-I don't have experience with them, or extensive experience against them. Hopefully somebody else knows more about them than I would.
Ike:
-Doesn't deal with range or stage control very well
-Attacks, while powerful, are sluggish; endlag issue comparable to Lucario and Wolf's
-Recovery from a distance is limited; Quickdraw doesn't always get there
-Gimpable recovery
-"Prepare yo'self" F-Smash not in 2.6b, lacks intimidation and swagger he otherwise had (no sympathy for other players; while hailing from a great game and being a great character, can be kind of a prude to people outside of his circle)
-Somewhat predictable game
Marth:
-Same issues with projectiles as Ike, but has an easier time due to movement speed
-Lacks the same potential with jab that Ike or Mario has
-Recovery options are predictable and limited
-No projectile options; range is solely derived from sword sweeps
Meta Knight:
-Struggles against zoning
-Recovery options, while varied well, are somewhat predictable
-Light weight can lead to quick deaths, while faster falling speed leads to being combo'd more often
I've typed so much, and I want to stop for now. That's just my take on those characters.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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I like this.....I like this a lot. But I didn't know Fox and Falco had weaknesses. Lol jk
His priority is pretty great with nair. A lot of "upthrow characters" have a really hard time against him because he just nairs as soon as he can and it basically hits the opponent out of what they're doing like 95% of the time.
s/t that I don't think people mention enough with metaknight is that his aerial mobility... really isn't good at all. like, compared to other characters it's decent, but for a character who basically lives and dies off of getting conversions into aerials, it's a problem. it's why a lot of MK's movement involves SHFFLs more than anything else, because unless you got them directly above you with uair, the air mobility is too slow to play much catchup. imo, this is why I hate the jiggs matchup so much, I hate the matchup's face and everything it stands for
Fortress
Smash Master
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Updated OP Fox, Falco, and Wolf changed a bit. Mario changed as well.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
EDIT: Ignore this.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Lmao. Hoping for a nerf. Nothing major just things to make the less stupid.Good thread.
Those characters are all OP? Good thing to update.
I think your OP could look a lot cleaner. A thread like this could be very valuable long-term, but it would have to be pretty clean and MEANT for that purpose, rather than 'I'm genuinely curious to know what they are' and have it for 'so people can check up on things to have a game-plan' if that makes sense.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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So you want strategies?
Fortress
Smash Master
Ganon doesn't need strategy, just fists.
More like this...
Mario- Has range/disjoint issues.
into this...
Mario
- Has range/disjoint issues + Needs to lock down opponents
> Can't handle being walled out = Can't force lock-downs.
Just a little clarification on the actual functions of the 'weaknesses' when it comes to actual in-game play.
Does that make sense?
At the same time, this Thread is fine, I'll probably just make something along this very-detailed line at some point anyway.
Mario- Has range/disjoint issues.
into this...
Mario
- Has range/disjoint issues + Needs to lock down opponents
> Can't handle being walled out = Can't force lock-downs.
Just a little clarification on the actual functions of the 'weaknesses' when it comes to actual in-game play.
Does that make sense?
At the same time, this Thread is fine, I'll probably just make something along this very-detailed line at some point anyway.
Fortress
Smash Master
Makes enough sense. Post a weakness, and how it impacts that character during gameplay. Link having a poor recovery isn't a weakness when you can utilize everything at his disposal, same with Mario, for instance.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Oh ok I see what you mean. But still I think things like that are opinions. I don't think Mario needs to lock down opponents. That's how I play Mario anyways. I never approach they come to me. If they approach I WD or DD or Fball to keep them away and when they make a mistake I go in.More like this...
Mario- Has range/disjoint issues.
into this...
Mario
- Has range/disjoint issues + Needs to lock down opponents
> Can't handle being walled out = Can't force lock-downs.
Just a little clarification on the actual functions of the 'weaknesses' when it comes to actual in-game play.
Does that make sense?
At the same time, this Thread is fine, I'll probably just make something along this very-detailed line at some point anyway.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Consider BH3 finals where kirk walled out Chad's Mario really well. kirk was perfectly fine trading with Mario; he can take more hits and his own hits deal more damage than Mario's does. Trading also meant sending Mario away from him thus preventing Chad's Mario from capitalizing on Bowser's huge size for combos. Mario does have a strong movement game, but if he can't rack up damage he's going to lose especially in a case like Bowser where a well-spaced Fair at high enough damages is going to kill him very quickly. It's also important to note that Chad could simply not get fireballs to land on kirk without them being PS'd to the point that it was creating disadvantageous situations.
Fortress
Smash Master
See, and I'm the opposite. I prefer to rush with Mario, with shorthopped fireballs into a dashing A, into whatever. Of course, Mario being the character that he is, can play those different games so effectively and easily.
Viceversa96
Banned via Warnings
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Chad didn't play that MU well at all. I saw a bunch of whiffed Up B's from Kirk and Chad missed a lot of grab opportunities. He didn't bait Bowser up b's either. feel he didn't know the MU too well. NEVER rush Bowser which is what he did. He played stellar the rest of the tourney besides that. I feel Bowser - Mario is definitely in Mario's favor.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I feel the Bowser MU is in Mario's favor as well and while on some parts it was obvious he was getting outplayed, I think there's a pretty clear struggle when Mario gets walled out. He doesn't have a range threat like Marth does or the sheer ground speed that Fox or Falcon have.
Viceversa96
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If Bowser creates a wall I usually go in for a second WD back baiting the up b. Grab and ****. Also Bowser has to land eventually and his moves he noticeable landing lag even when L canceling BAM grab= **** again.
Xenozoa425
Smash Ace
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To beat Bowser all you have to do is play the DD camp game and punish him, get away from him when he's near the ledge, and try to avoid being above him.
Viceversa96
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That also. Also Chad got hit by down b offstage a lot. Which is sooooo predictable.
Fortress
Smash Master
I think this whole thread boils down to "every character isn't Ganondorf", and can't punch their way out of a paper bag. I think that's a glaring flaw in all character designs at the moment that the PMBR needs to look into. Super Ganon Bros. Ganon is what I understand is being aimed for, but it's just not there yet.
Viceversa96
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Yes that's exactly how I feel. I was too afraid of getting backlash though.
Fortress
Smash Master
It's only a matter of time before the PMBR gets me permabanned off of the boards for spoiling what is really the 3.0 release. Mewtwo and Roy were just a distraction from the Ganonfying that is to come. There was a Jigglypuff hack on the Vault with Jigglypuff's head where G-man's should be, but that was a leak. You won't find it there anymore (I'm not kidding about that actually being a texture hack, though).
Viceversa96
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Lol 3.0 everyone has 0 to death combos.