Character specific board match-up chart project

[adumbrodeus]

Current match-ups according to the Marth boards:

Edit: I am referring to EL's original thread about matchups. Its pretty old but still fairly accurate imo.

Here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

for all lazy people this is in the thread

* means I have applied the changes that have been made in the more current thread by Steel2nd

Bowser - 6:4 Marth___________________________ Captain Falcon - 7:3 Marth
Charizard - 6:4 Marth__________________________Diddy Kong - 6:4 Marth
Donkey Kong - 6:4 Marth ______________________*Falco - 6:4 Marth*
Fox - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Game & Watch - 6:4 Marth
Ganondorf - 8:2 Marth_________________________Ice Climbers - 6:4 Marth
Ike - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Ivysaur - 7:3 Marth
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Marth__________________________King Dedede- 5:5 Even
Kirby- 7:3 Marth______________________________Link- 6:4 Marth
Lucario - 6:4 Marth____________________________Lucas - 7:3 Marth
Luigi - 6:4 Marth______________________________ Mario - 7:3 Marth
Marth - 5:5 Mirror Match_______________________* Meta Knight- 6:4 Meta*
Ness - 8:2 Marth______________________________**Peach - 6:4 Marth**
Pikachu - 6:4 Marth___________________________Pikman & Olimar - 5:5 Even
**Pit - 6.5:3.5 Marth**________________________________R.O.B. - 5:5 Even
Samus - 6:4 Marth____________________________Sheik - 6:4 Marth
*Snake - 5:5 Even*___________________________Sonic - 7:3 Marth
Squirtle - 7:3 Marth___________________________Toon Link - 5:5 Even
Wario - 6:4 Marth_____________________________Wolf- 6:4 Marth
Yoshi - 7:3 Marth_____________________________Zelda - 6:4 Marth
Zero Suit Samus - 6:4 Marth

Legend for changes from the initial quote:

**=changed due to our weekly match-up discussion after 3xSwords posted this.
@=debated with other board/other board agrees with us (note, this refers to level of advantage, not absolute number, again this is primarily for the match-up project, which doesn't distinguish between 60-40 and 65-35, both are small advantages).
@*=changed due to debate with other board.


Weekly match-up index:




[background info]
As you guys might know, IvanEva's match-up chart is... outdated, poor, and unresponsive to changes in the metagame.


So, now there's another project going, DanGR is trying to use only the data from the character boards to eliminate both the inaccuracy (due to familiarity) and the personal bias the chart creator has, plus make the chart more responsive.


The catch, the boards have to agree for him to put a match-up, which means if we disagree with say THE FALCO BOARDS, we gotta "fight it out", and discuss who really has the advantage.

Now the project is a really good idea in my opinion, but to resolve the issue, where there's disagreement between the two character specific boards about a given match-up, one of the boards has to take the initiative and convince the other to come and debate it. I purpose we do it for our match-ups. We should pick a match-up we already discussed and know that we disagree with the opposing board on, and create a thread to discuss it.

[/background info]








Basically, I suggest that on a weekly basis, we invite a character specific board that we disagree with about a Marth match-up to come over and debate us. I'd volunteer to maintain it and create the thread unless somebody more respected would prefer to do it. This thread could contain the central index of these discussions.


This would allow us to make sure that THIS match-up chart is actually accurate, at least as far as Marth is concerned.

Here's a Link to the match-up chart: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338



What do you guys think?

 

[3xSwords]

I think this is a great idea.

For now let's use the matchup chart we already have as a basis and then determine which matches are a little faulty.

Edit: I am referring to EL's original thread about matchups. Its pretty old but still fairly accurate imo.

Here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

for all lazy people this is in the thread

* means I have applied the changes that have been made in the more current thread by Steel2nd

Bowser - 6:4 Marth___________________________ Captain Falcon - 7:3 Marth
Charizard - 6:4 Marth__________________________Diddy Kong - 6:4 Marth
Donkey Kong - 6:4 Marth ______________________*Falco - 6:4 Marth*
Fox - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Game & Watch - 6:4 Marth
Ganondorf - 8:2 Marth_________________________Ice Climbers - 6:4 Marth
Ike - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Ivysaur - 7:3 Marth
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Marth__________________________King Dedede- 5:5 Even
Kirby- 7:3 Marth______________________________Link- 6:4 Marth
Lucario - 6:4 Marth____________________________Lucas - 7:3 Marth
Luigi - 6:4 Marth______________________________ Mario - 7:3 Marth
Marth - 5:5 Mirror Match_______________________* Meta Knight- 6:4 Meta*
Ness - 8:2 Marth______________________________Peach - 7:3 Marth
Pikachu - 6:4 Marth___________________________Pikman & Olimar - 5:5 Even
Pit - 6:4 Marth________________________________R.O.B. - 5:5 Even
Samus - 6:4 Marth____________________________Sheik - 6:4 Marth
*Snake - 5:5 Even*___________________________Sonic - 7:3 Marth
Squirtle - 7:3 Marth___________________________Toon Link - 5:5 Even
Wario - 6:4 Marth_____________________________Wolf- 6:4 Marth
Yoshi - 7:3 Marth_____________________________Zelda - 6:4 Marth
Zero Suit Samus - 6:4 Marth

Things I believe we should discuss first:
Wario vs Marth: release grab madness
Yoshi vs Marth: Yoshi has advanced quite a lot since April
Olimar vs Marth: Just b/c I don't believe its even
Diddy vs Marth: Ninjalink changed everything lol
Ice Climbers vs Marth: The threat of being grabbed once is incredible
Marth vs Marth: Should the match come down to who fsmashes more and kills EL first?

Edit 2: smashboards is stupid -_-

 

[e__]

The thing about ICs is that their chain grab is pretty susceptible to being banned.

Wait, TC is from the Tri-State? As in Ohio, Kentucky, Indiana tristate?

You should come to the weeklies DR X is having sometime.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think this is a great idea.

For now let's use the matchup chart we already have as a basis and then determine which matches are a little faulty.

Edit: I am referring to EL's original thread about matchups. Its pretty old but still fairly accurate imo.

Here's the link
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=160991

for all lazy people this is in the thread

* means I have applied the changes that have been made in the more current thread by Steel2nd

Bowser - 6:4 Marth___________________________ Captain Falcon - 7:3 Marth
Charizard - 6:4 Marth__________________________Diddy Kong - 6:4 Marth
Donkey Kong - 6:4 Marth ______________________*Falco - 6:4 Marth*
Fox - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Game & Watch - 6:4 Marth
Ganondorf - 8:2 Marth_________________________Ice Climbers - 6:4 Marth
Ike - 6:4 Marth_______________________________Ivysaur - 7:3 Marth
Jigglypuff - 7:3 Marth__________________________King Dedede- 5:5 Even
Kirby- 7:3 Marth______________________________Link- 6:4 Marth
Lucario - 6:4 Marth____________________________Lucas - 7:3 Marth
Luigi - 6:4 Marth______________________________ Mario - 7:3 Marth
Marth - 5:5 Mirror Match_______________________* Meta Knight- 6:4 Meta*
Ness - 8:2 Marth______________________________Peach - 7:3 Marth
Pikachu - 6:4 Marth___________________________Pikman & Olimar - 5:5 Even
Pit - 6:4 Marth________________________________R.O.B. - 5:5 Even
Samus - 6:4 Marth____________________________Sheik - 6:4 Marth
*Snake - 5:5 Even*___________________________Sonic - 7:3 Marth
Squirtle - 7:3 Marth___________________________Toon Link - 5:5 Even
Wario - 6:4 Marth_____________________________Wolf- 6:4 Marth
Yoshi - 7:3 Marth_____________________________Zelda - 6:4 Marth
Zero Suit Samus - 6:4 Marth

Things I believe we should discuss first:
Wario vs Marth: release grab madness
Yoshi vs Marth: Yoshi has advanced quite a lot since April
Olimar vs Marth: Just b/c I don't believe its even
Diddy vs Marth: Ninjalink changed everything lol
Ice Climbers vs Marth: The threat of being grabbed once is incredible
Marth vs Marth: Should the match come down to who fsmashes more and kills EL first?

Edit 2: smashboards is stupid -_-

Well, if we're doing it on a weekly basis, why not just stick with the match-ups that we've examined recently?

Sure, EL's chart is pretty accurate, but it's still old and we've come across some issues already (MK for example). I think it would be better if we just invited debates for match-ups we're sure of.





And how about Falco for first up? They think it's either their advantage 6:4 or a neutral, we think it's our advantage 6:4. They're also a pretty respectable board, so a great way to start this off.

And Marth mainers have been debating them about this match-up for a while now.

The thing about ICs is that their chain grab is pretty susceptible to being banned..

That's not standard tournament rules though, and it's really not right to say that we're doing this based on a rule list that unofficial.

 

[Shaya]

That IC contribution was made with the knowledge that that they have awesome chain grabs.

Point is, is that IC's barey are able to reach Marth due to his superior range. And Marth is one of the lucky ones, he can break out of some of the IC's chaingrabs a lot earlier than others...

Any smarth Marth knows to never use a laggy move against an IC, and they only have their forward b and ice breath and ice block attacks as approaches.

Technically one can argue that the IC's have a 9:1 match up favour with every character, but they don't. There's good reason why.

 

[3xSwords]

Well, if we're doing it on a weekly basis, why not just stick with the match-ups that we've examined recently?

Sure, EL's chart is pretty accurate, but it's still old and we've come across some issues already (MK for example). I think it would be better if we just invited debates for match-ups we're sure of.

And how about Falco for first up? They think it's either their advantage 6:4 or a neutral, we think it's our advantage 6:4. They're also a pretty respectable board, so a great way to start this off.

And Marth mainers have been debating them about this match-up for a while now.

That's not standard tournament rules though, and it's really not right to say that we're doing this based on a rule list that unofficial.

Then was the point of the OP just to notify the boards? Well then sir, you have made me do a **** load of work for nothing. Thanks a lot jk.

Well I know the last portion of my post probably wasn't needed, b/c most were just my opinions coming from just staring at EL's chart of matchups.

So then what is the intent of this thread exactly? Was it just to notify the boards of this? Was it to be the host thread for the discussions against other boards? Or something else? Also I don't think another chart will do us harm. We can just update EL's as we go, and if its already fairly accurate it saves us more work.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Then was the point of the OP just to notify the boards? Well then sir, you have made me do a **** load of work for nothing. Thanks a lot jk.

It was to purpose that we do this. But I also expect this to be the host thread for the discussions/duels/whatever.

But the info is useful for when we start this, so no, you didn't do it for nothing.

So then what is the intent of this thread exactly? Was it just to notify the boards of this? Was it to be the host thread for the discussions against other boards? Or something else? Also I don't think another chart will do us harm. We can just update EL's as we go, and if its already fairly accurate it saves us more work.

To purpose that we (the marth boards) or a weekly basis invite a board that we disagree with about our char's match-up with theirs and debate the issue with them. This thread is intended to purpose this to the board (any objections-style) and contain links to the debate threads in the opening post.



I agree, EL chart is pretty good, but since we're doing match-ups on weekly basis, we have a reasonable pool of chars that we're sure of already, and we'll never have done more characters then have been updated.

I don't see a reason not to stick with the recently updated chars (unless our weekly discussions are gonna stop for some reason, in which case, yeah, use EL's chart).

 

[3xSwords]

I'm just saying leave use EL's chart in the OP and update it as the discussions go. Or you can just provide links either works.

So.... Have we had any problem boards yet?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'm just saying leave use EL's chart in the OP and update it as the discussions go. Or you can just provide links either works.

I guess the easiest thing is to use yours and update as we go, linking to Emblem Lord's chart and the match-up thread.

So.... Have we had any problem boards yet?

Of course we have, plenty of them, just need to figure out who to invite first.


Again, my vote is for Falco, but another traditionally held disadvantage like ROB or Snake would be a good one as well.

 

[Remzi]

I'd call Marth vs Falco an even 5:5.

Marth's advantages:
-superior air game
-outranges him (excluding Falco's projectiles)
-Can gimp him a lot easier
-Has a 32% chain grab on him and sometimes a zero death

Falco's Advantages:
-Can camp like no other, which tends to work well against Marth
-Laser works wonders on Marth
-Shine is bothersome and halts approaches
-Close range game is still good
-Good grab reach and throws

 

[Steel]

Marth vs Falco isn't even, it's 6:4 marth.

 

[ZHMT]

This 32% chaingrab on Falco is including the fthrow to fsmash right?

 

[adumbrodeus]

I'd call Marth vs Falco an even 5:5.

Marth's advantages:
-superior air game
-outranges him (excluding Falco's projectiles)
-Can gimp him a lot easier
-Has a 32% chain grab on him and sometimes a zero death

Falco's Advantages:
-Can camp like no other, which tends to work well against Marth
-Laser works wonders on Marth
-Shine is bothersome and halts approaches
-Close range game is still good
-Good grab reach and throws

Marth vs Falco isn't even, it's 6:4 marth.

Lol, since it seems like all Marths don't even agree on this, Falco first?

 

[Steel]

We've already discussed Falco in the weekly discussion and in the thread Emblem Lord made a few days ago concerning the match up chart.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189118

6:4 >_>

 

[adumbrodeus]

We've already discussed Falco in the weekly discussion and in the thread Emblem Lord made a few days ago concerning the match up chart.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189118

6:4 >_>

Obviously (I did link to your thread index in the OP after all), but we haven't invited over the falco boards to discuss it, and they obviously didn't take part in it since they still have it as either neutral or 6:4 them...

Hence the reason I'm purposing this in the first place. We might've accepted it but they haven't, and if we want an accurated match-up chart we'll need to agree with them about some conclusion for the match-up.


Which I expect will be 6:4 marth, but it's possible we're wrong (just not very likely).

 

[Emblem Lord]

Most of the Falco's agree to 6/4.

Honestly, there is just no way it could be even, since statistically Marth outdoes Falco, but when you add in the ways Marth can deal with lasers you end up with 6/4. Falco doesn't really have anything to mitigate the ways that Marth outdoes him. And they both have grab combos on each other so that holds alot less weight then it would if only one of them had them.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Most of the Falco's agree to 6/4.

Honestly, there is just no way it could be even, since statistically Marth outdoes Falco, but when you add in the ways Marth can deal with lasers you end up with 6/4. Falco doesn't really have anything to mitigate the ways that Marth outdoes him. And they both have grab combos on each other so that holds alot less weight then it would if only one of them had them.

Then why is it not 6/4 Marth's advantage on their match-up chart?

That's sort of a necessary thing.



So if we can just correct the oversight then no need (assuming it is an oversight), who would you purpose for first up then?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Ok, since it seems that nobody has any other suggestions I guess I'll set things up with the Falcos.

Should have a thread up in the next couple of days unless tere's an issue.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Er. Marth vs Falco has already been settled.

Fear not.

EL's got this.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Er. Marth vs Falco has already been settled.

Fear not.

EL's got this.

Ok, cause it looks like one of their two match-up threads is doing a marth discussion at the moment.

It starts here.

Before doing anything with debating them, I guess waiting for their current conclusion is best.





I guess that leaves us with picking a new debate.

2 suggestions: Yoshi, Wario. Basically the 2 chars 3xSwords mentioned that our conclusions oppose theirs (checked the match-up threads for the others, if we don't have an opposite conclusion, best let the normal match-up thread deal with it).

Once DDDs make a firm decision and ROBs cover us, they'll probably be good ideas to touch on, but for now, the two I mentioned seem like good targets. Any other suggestions?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I already did a thread awhile back and I'm sure the evidence I provided previously will resurface in that thread.

D3 and ROB boards both call it even.

Search for their respective match-up threads and you will see.

 

[adumbrodeus]

I already did a thread awhile back and I'm sure the evidence I provided previously will resurface in that thread.

D3 and ROB boards both call it even.

Search for their respective match-up threads and you will see.

Found it! I'll bring it up.

As for the DDD board, it says, "in testing", though technically neutral. I gather it's a placeholder till they actually do the match-up.


The ROBs call it neutral so far, but they're doing a new match-up discussion series which hasn't covered us yet, so we'll see.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They already discussed Marth in their current match-up thread.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415&page=26

 

[adumbrodeus]

They already discussed Marth in their current match-up thread.

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415&page=26

Ah, just haven't updated the front.

Pardon me, I've been checking a lot of match-up threads, didn't realize that they didn't weren't prompt with updating the OP.

OK, less work for us, thanx EL.