LatexRhombus
Smash Journeyman
well thats a good point, but in theory it isnt the size of the tourney, it depends who is at the tournament. but yea, thats a very good point. fail on me
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Character Rankings List - Post-March 2010
- Thread starter Zankoku
- Start date
- Status
Yes, but he doesn't get faster when he's fatigued, either. I've tested this.
Sorry, that was sarcasm. Of course he's slower. No one can outrun Sonic.
Now, attacking faster, that's a different subject.
ArowYoshi
Smash Apprentice
Ankoku, i was wondering why the tourney i entered way back on page 239 wasnt entered into the list. i actually got a first with Yoshi and i would like to help my character a bit 
. i believe i had everything you needed but if i didnt, i can change it.
. i believe i had everything you needed but if i didnt, i can change it.It's all good. I was being silly, myself.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
lol I play Steeler on a regular basis guys. Charizard is simply awesome. Spamming Rock Smash is a noob move. You guys ought to not make generalizations against Charizard when you get angry if people do that to Sonic.
EDIT: Ah I finally found something I was looking for. According to this table, Charizard's grab range is apparently better than Dedede's.
You left out Range, Disjointedness, and weight. His recovery also covers more horizontal distance than sonic's can and he can fly under stages with it albeit slowly. With his extra jumps, it's not horrendously less than Sonic's vertically and does have the advantage of being a kill move as well as having superarmor.
Charizard's grab range for non-tether reach is just below Dedede. His spacing tools are absolutely great in Flamethrower (racks up damage fast against large targets and fast fallers), Rock Smash (massive Damage, insane priority), and Ftilt & Dtilt (dtilt is extremely fast and both can be circumstantial kill moves at later percents while still reaching far and being disjointed). Upsmash our of shield is just 5 frames if I recall correctly and is a great vertical kill move. Utlit is great for punishing through platforms and sets up nice arial followups. As for Matchups themselves you'd have to consult the PT boards. They break it down by Pokemon and welcome input from other boards.
And I dislike Sonic's lack of Priority, range and kill power lolololol. See the similiarity here in this statement?
If by "not very good", you mean that flamethrower works great for low percent edge guards to rack up damage and force the opponent to DI back away to the ledge where you can go for a gimp. Not to mention that in edgeguardiong, Fair sends opponents off in the best angle possible (besides straight down), sideways and slightly down. Back air is amazingly disjointed with three different hitboxes. The sweetspot is terrifying bad to be hit by. Bair is also very quick and a good stage spike tool because fo this. Dair spike is average for a spike, but better than Sonic's non-existant one. charizard also has edge guard options in Dtilt and Rock Smash.
Er...rock smash? With a grab like his, he can approach in much the same way Dedede does who's no speed demon. Do you see Dedede having trouble ever approaching? Charizard will approach with SH Flamethrowers, Rock Smashes and Fairs, or powershield through projectile assault to get in his pressuring grab range. He's not at all bad at approaching, priority and damage make him quite a threat in that regard. He's not the -best- approachers, but he's no where near the worst (Oh, hey Fox, didn't see you there. How's that Dair going for you?).
Sonic has spikes all over his body.
EDIT: Ah I finally found something I was looking for. According to this table, Charizard's grab range is apparently better than Dedede's.
___X___
Smash Lord
infomon
Smash Scientist
siiiigh, you missed it.. didn't you read the posts around that all asking the same thing? It's just evaluating contribution to the Sonic boards / internet persona being cool. This is off-topic, anyway.
Charizard's Fair and Dair are amazing. But do any Sonics have much experience with the match-up? You might have trouble convincing Sonics that Charizard is good because, well, we're pretty opposite characters lol, and I think Sonics tend to think we have an advantage against heavyweights, so it's hard to imagine Charizard and Bowser being better than us
Just a thought.
Not necessarily.siiiigh, you missed it.. didn't you read the posts around that all asking the same thing? It's just evaluating contribution to the Sonic boards / internet persona being cool. This is off-topic, anyway.
Charizard's Fair and Dair are amazing. But do any Sonics have much experience with the match-up? You might have trouble convincing Sonics that Charizard is good because, well, we're pretty opposite characters lol, and I think Sonics tend to think we have an advantage against heavyweights, so it's hard to imagine Charizard and Bowser being better than us
Just a thought.
I honestly think we only have a slight advantage on Bowser. He's pretty **** nasty when in good hands.
Charizard is no different, but I find it much easier to approach and hit a Charizard than a Bowser.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
It's important to keep in mind you are not always better than a character you can beat. (Example, even if Snake beats Meta Knight, Meta Knight is still better than him).
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
at inferno
i dont think i was that bad, but thanks for showing me the error of my thought processes however i do have some qualms...
1. very VERY few characters have as much horizontal recovery ability as sonic, and char is not one of them. sonic can get under a stage at the same speed as MK ROB and pit.
im going to try not to be presumptious here.
since his glide is so slow it seems easy to hit him out of it, and even thought their up bs are about the same (sonics gives more height, invincibility and a non freefall state after while chars has superarmor and a really big, strong hit box) i feel that sonics recovery is a little bit better than chars...
2. i searched and found some of his vids, he is serious. madd good. I also read your post and i wont be underestimating this character any time soon.
3. a kind of stupid point but i think that sonics sweetspotted d-air sends at a slightly better angle than chars down air. doesnt matter much but w/e.
4. they are right i find it really hard to see bowser as a good character, since i usually light them up, but its also his stigma from melee sticking in my head as well, but i do try to stay objective in matters such as these
but thank you for explaining this to me i appreciate it. i wont say that sonic is better but i do think they are in the same league...
also
@X
dude ive said this like 4 times, it was a popularity contest.
please dont get bent
i dont think i was that bad, but thanks for showing me the error of my thought processes however i do have some qualms...
1. very VERY few characters have as much horizontal recovery ability as sonic, and char is not one of them. sonic can get under a stage at the same speed as MK ROB and pit.
im going to try not to be presumptious here.
since his glide is so slow it seems easy to hit him out of it, and even thought their up bs are about the same (sonics gives more height, invincibility and a non freefall state after while chars has superarmor and a really big, strong hit box) i feel that sonics recovery is a little bit better than chars...
2. i searched and found some of his vids, he is serious. madd good. I also read your post and i wont be underestimating this character any time soon.
3. a kind of stupid point but i think that sonics sweetspotted d-air sends at a slightly better angle than chars down air. doesnt matter much but w/e.
4. they are right i find it really hard to see bowser as a good character, since i usually light them up, but its also his stigma from melee sticking in my head as well, but i do try to stay objective in matters such as these
but thank you for explaining this to me i appreciate it. i wont say that sonic is better but i do think they are in the same league...
also
@X
dude ive said this like 4 times, it was a popularity contest.
please dont get bent
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
his glide is bad period. its nice to cover distance but it means littlw when you move so slowly.
Sonic's is much less vulnerable hence, a better recovery.
Hmm okay.
I deleted the retst of the stuff since it had nothing to do with what I asked.
Like I said earlier, I probably am more pessimistic than needed since I don't use Charizard.
of course I am als pessimistic of Sonic.
Also he doesn't lack priority. It is average.
What game are we playing that Charizard can instantly go out of a flamethrower and in for a gimp?
For one the hitstun is too few and Charizards attacks are too slow to go for an immediate gimp as is his movement.
but you hav t hit with the center therwise, n flinch results.
Sonic's Fair comes out faster, always causes flinching and is more easy to set up.
Also the angle can be dealt with by DI.
Charizards spike is bad. It lacks the length that Ganondrf and ness possess as well as the sheer power.
Sonic's bair is disjinted, the hitbox surrounds his body an has a sour spt during the ending frames.
Snic's Dair semispikes which can be considered god considering how strng vertical recovery is in the game.
Sonic's air is faste rthan Charizards and more easily followed up.
his Uair is better than Charizards easily and his spring allows him to catch an pponent recovering frm high up. Something Charizard cannot do.
he can also go a greater distance more quickly than Charizard.
Sonic can use his Ftilt and can use a tilted Fsmash to hit below the ledge.
DDD desn't approach.
He als has a prjectile absorer and forces the oppnent close to him. Charizard does not let alone that its what you do after the grab thats more imprtant.
thats cause he desn't approach. DDD is not good at approaching. his ability to force the opponent close makes him good.
By no means is he the worse buthe still gets camped to anoticeable degree. SH flame thowers can only do so much for charizard the same for rock smash 9which would be awesome with flamethrowers range).
The main issue is that those moves are active for a good amunt of time so if you miss or make a small error, you'll get punished. Let alone that the movement speed of Charizar dis poor so chaaracters like falco , Wlf and olimar make it incredibly tough for Charizard to approach.
he can approach but he does not do so very well.
Sonic n the other hand has alot more options than Charizard.
unlike Charizard all his moves can be cancelled so he is not only a character with alot of options when it comes to approaching, but also very unpredictable.
He only has 6. On his back.
what the throw dwn chart?
I am not so sure anymore since it classifies Sonic's range as being the worst when his grab range is noticeably larger than the IC's.
Charizard was my starting pokemon R/B came out.
I always made a bellyzard, its so awesome ^_^
infomon
Smash Scientist
Yeah for sure, I'm well aware of this, and yet it's a hard minset to get out of anyway
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
Bellyzard fails to Stealth Rock the most commonly used move in the entire game these days.
Steeler needs to get his *** in gear and do this himself.
As for priority.
No. It's bad. It's really bad. Overall, Sonic's moves (keeping in mind priority only applies to ground moves) have terrible priority. If I were to break it down, sonic's priority overall is above that of only a few characters who -also- have terrible terrible priority (coughfalconcough).
Charizard doesn't -need- those attributes. You fail to realize that even though his strengths are not the same as Sonic's he didn't become worse than Sonic. If we were to judge all characters this way we would have to say Sonic is the best character in the game. This obviously isn't true therefore there must be a gigantic hole in the logic of it. Characters that hit incredibly hard don't -need- to be able to combo. Snake doesn't combo you all over the field constantly (unless you count hitting a bunch of bombs in a row). He just hits you hard. This is the same vein Charizard works in. He uses Range and Priority to simply pummel his opponents. He's dealing knock back that sets up for gimps at percentages where Sonic is still trying to rack up more damage with fast combos.
Steeler needs to get his *** in gear and do this himself. I really despise doing these things.
Steeler needs to get his *** in gear and do this himself.
I didn’t say Charizard's recovery was better, I said it wasn't so much worse as to say that its bad. Sonic has an unusually good recovery, Charizard has a slightly above average recovery.
If you were truly pessimistic about Sonic you wouldn't spend so much time defending him.
As for priority.
No. It's bad. It's really bad. Overall, Sonic's moves (keeping in mind priority only applies to ground moves) have terrible priority. If I were to break it down, sonic's priority overall is above that of only a few characters who -also- have terrible terrible priority (coughfalconcough).
since we already have established that I know more about Zard here, let me assert that the distance Flamethrower pushes people back due to angling, allows him enough time to attack with a Fair after shoving someone away from the ledge with Flamethrower.
This is not a hard move to Sweet Spot, it's rather forgiving as far as Brawl sweet spots go. The angle is terribly hard to DI. DIing up will keep you mostly level to the angle you were sent at for an average weight character. This also applies in reverse to Sonic's Fair which can not only be SDI'ed out of, but because it is part of his hurt box many characters can just attack through it if they have fast Fairs.
To judge the "average" of spikes by using the top two in the game makes no sense. You do not judge middle data using only the top outliers. Charizard ranks 16 out of 46 spikes in Brawl. That is well into the upper half of Spikes. Bad? I laugh. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=199830&highlight=Spikes
There are a lot of typos that make some of this hard to read so I can't reliably tell what some of it is so I'll ignore what I don't understand. Charizard's Bair is more disjointed as I've already pointed out (and faster) and since we are pointing out "semi-spikes" Charizard's Bair can spike as well. It happens to be weak as all hell, but "semi" spike isn't much better.
Charizard always sets up for an edge guard out of grab (that is if he doesn‘t just flat out kill you with one at higher percentages), and Charizard happens to have -better- approaching options than DDD, who can still approach if he wants to (I prefer to, he used to be my main before I went Random).
Most of the characters that camp Charizard, camp half the rest of the cast already. He's not that noticeable of an exception of someone who gets camped.
You do realize that all three of those also make it hard for Sonic to approach as well? he didn't magically gain "Don't get hit by projectile" abilities by being Sonic.
I'm not going to bother pointing out how "all" is not quite true....oops.
Charizard doesn't -need- those attributes. You fail to realize that even though his strengths are not the same as Sonic's he didn't become worse than Sonic. If we were to judge all characters this way we would have to say Sonic is the best character in the game. This obviously isn't true therefore there must be a gigantic hole in the logic of it. Characters that hit incredibly hard don't -need- to be able to combo. Snake doesn't combo you all over the field constantly (unless you count hitting a bunch of bombs in a row). He just hits you hard. This is the same vein Charizard works in. He uses Range and Priority to simply pummel his opponents. He's dealing knock back that sets up for gimps at percentages where Sonic is still trying to rack up more damage with fast combos.
I believe I explained this on the Sonic boards already.
Bellyzard (who by the way is not in R/B that came in GSC, did I mention I played Pokemon hard core for a while?) fails to Stealth Rock what is almost the most commonly used move in the entire game these days.
Steeler needs to get his *** in gear and do this himself. I really despise doing these things.
i really don't care about the sonic/charizard debate, and it's clear that the sonic side doesn't know much about charizard. i know a little bit about sonic from all of the sonic discussions that pop up EVERYWHERE these days.
although i notice that the sonics like to just classify zard as another one of the heavyweights and the assumptions about them. ie slow attacker, strong moves, etc. zard isn't slooow by any means. the rock smash rock comes out in about 3-5 frames, and if the opponent makes contact with it, they will take serious damage. zard also has the 7th fastest running speed and about slightly above average air speed (iirc). up smash comes out in FIVE frames dude. it's an awesome out of shield option with a great hitbox and kill power. that's a few examples of how zard is both fairly quick and powerful.
comparing two characters as different as sonic/zard is kind of pointless anyway.
although i notice that the sonics like to just classify zard as another one of the heavyweights and the assumptions about them. ie slow attacker, strong moves, etc. zard isn't slooow by any means. the rock smash rock comes out in about 3-5 frames, and if the opponent makes contact with it, they will take serious damage. zard also has the 7th fastest running speed and about slightly above average air speed (iirc). up smash comes out in FIVE frames dude. it's an awesome out of shield option with a great hitbox and kill power. that's a few examples of how zard is both fairly quick and powerful.
comparing two characters as different as sonic/zard is kind of pointless anyway.
A majority of Sonics haven't played a PT.
There definately are a few exceptions though (me, and KID seems to understand too). I know what Char can do. I just find it easy to evade, just because Sonic can get through his shiz.
Doesn't mean he's not hard as hell to take out though.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
@steeler and inferno
you saw my comments right
i admit that i have very little knowledge of the whole of PT outside of rock smash bullet seed and that weir shell shifting thing. and thats why i dont debate who is better. I guess my comment is mainly about wolf, since i basically second him now, i know hes a good character, and i wanted to know what made people think that char was in the same league as him, cause i really dont know about the character.
i appreciate inferno at least taking the time to show me the strengths of the character.
also wanted to say that i got madd <3 for steeler. like i said, i saw his vids and he is beast and i give him mad props for playing a character like PT competitively.
so thanks for humoring me and explaining this one character to me, and while i know now that char is very different than bowser or ganon, i still think that sonic is (very slightly) better than him, but that wasnt the point to begin with.
inferno and steeler
thank you for your time and i apologise for shadowlinks ignorance of your character
you saw my comments right
i admit that i have very little knowledge of the whole of PT outside of rock smash bullet seed and that weir shell shifting thing. and thats why i dont debate who is better. I guess my comment is mainly about wolf, since i basically second him now, i know hes a good character, and i wanted to know what made people think that char was in the same league as him, cause i really dont know about the character.
i appreciate inferno at least taking the time to show me the strengths of the character.
also wanted to say that i got madd <3 for steeler. like i said, i saw his vids and he is beast and i give him mad props for playing a character like PT competitively.
so thanks for humoring me and explaining this one character to me, and while i know now that char is very different than bowser or ganon, i still think that sonic is (very slightly) better than him, but that wasnt the point to begin with.
inferno and steeler
thank you for your time and i apologise for shadowlinks ignorance of your character
BlueTerrorist
Smash Ace
PT? I use him so I know what will happen and I usually fight them around my way (No not a crappy one, there's one good one I know about and i'm not namedropping him). For Sonic, it really depends on the Pokemon. I think we all can agree that Squirtle is a pain for Sonic. Sonic's shouldn't fight Squirtle's in the air at all. As for Ivysaur, it can keep Sonic out of range via razor leaf as well as alot of it's attacks. However it can easily be gimped and it can be a nightmare if Sonic gets past it's defenses. Charizard has the toughest time with Sonic, he's a big target, slow aerial speed can get him pressured offstage. He has some good options if he gets Sonic to a corner and Rock smash is a good move to defend yourself in this match. Flamethrower can be a pain to approaching Sonic's. Overall, Squirtle does good out of all the pokemon the trainer has. This isn't a match discussion so I'll leave the rest out until either board discusses one another.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I knw stealth rock ***** the crap out of Charizard. Which is why I'll probably have to breed a different charizard.
Eh I wuld saya verage not because he can't get to the edge, but because he does it slowly so it feels vulnerable.
pessimistic: expecting the worst possible outcome.
I will defend a character if I feel something is wrong with what is said.
Really now? Lets analyze things a bit
Jab: 2,2,3
Ftilt:4,7
Dtilt: 6
Utilt: 3,4,7 (disjointed)
Fsmash: 14 (disjointed)
Usmash: 5%, 3% all hits in between are 1% (disjointed)
Dsmash: 12
Dash attack:6
Zard (feel free to correct me if I make an error)
jab: 2,2 5%
Ftilt: 7%
dtilt: 8%
utilt: 5 %
Fsmash: 3%,12%
Dsmas:11%
Usmash: 3,8%
Dash attack: 8%
Terrible indeed.
His priority is nowhere near as bad as people often dictate.
Aerial priority is also based on the hitbox/hurtbox ratio and range and in that aspect, Sonic still does quite well.
He cannot .
I tried it myself. Flamethrower~Fair it does not work if the opponent DI's properly.
As soon as you stop the flamethrower they immediately regain contrl and can avid the Fair.
the angle at which Charizard sends the opponent is equivalent to a semispike. Its nt terribly hard to DI properly. Hit delay makes DI easier and its much more effective this time around.
As for Sonic's Fair, that is grossly untrue.
You cannot SDI out of Sonic's Fair unless you SDI towards the ground because Sonic's Fair sucks in the opponent towards the center of his body.
You cannot SDI and then Fair Sonic unless you SDI towards the ground and then tilt him.
You can change which way he sends you after the final hit.
The chart ranks them in terms of power not in terms of how good the spike is.
For example ganondorf's spike is not only powerful but covers almost his entire body and has greater range than Zard's. This is the same with Ness. So you have a noticeable gap between whose spike is effective and whose is not.
Falco's Dair would also be classified as btter thanZ ard's because he has methods of immediately landing the Dair (r placing the opponent in a situation for a Dair) while Zard does not have any.
Sorry about that, my keyboard needs to be replaced.
What? Just because you have a spike desn't automatically mean it is better.
In melee Links semispike was incredibly powerful. it could not be meteor canceled and because of the horizontal trajectory made it incredibly difficult to recover after being struck by it.
its great that his Bair has a spike but the fact that it is so weak completely defeats its purpse. You have a better chance of spiking with Fox's Dair in short.
Just because it is a spike doesn't mean its automatically better.
never denied zard approaches better than DDD. He does not approach that much better though.The difference between the two charcters is one doesn't need t approach and the other does.
Agreed.
The degree of difficulty is what amtters and when it comes to approaching, Sonic has an easier time than Charizard and a better success rate. him getting close to Wolf takes less time and he will incur less damage than Charizard would.
He is also much less predictable than Charizard which is always a good thing when approaching those annoying characters.
Wrong. Charizard needs those abilities. Every character needs such ana bility as approaching.
Let alone that an approach doesn't dictate a good character let alone that as I said, when Sonic approaches he plays riskily. For example Marth and Mk are excellent characters who can approach because of several factors.
Sonic has primarily speed and unpredictability which means that he can approach as god but not as safely.
Charizard on the other hand doesn't have those traits to a good degree.
You can have a OHKO move like G&W's judgement hammer but it doesn't mean anything if your opponent does not allow you to get close.
Yes Charizard can kill early and he hits hard. Thats not the issue though, the issue is approaching in a manner that doesn't leave you open to attack and allows you to get close.
he just has issues approaching characters. its great when he lands a hit (seriously 32% of a single move is sexy), but he does have issues landing those moves. yes he kills earlier, but his difficulty in approaching tends to off set things.
While for Snic, he can approach and rack damage, but cannot kill (the killing factor holds him down most)
I am not the Sonic boards and I really cannot go searching the topics where you've posted.
Link?
I meant that I picked Zard as my started in R/B and made him a bellyzard in GSC. I know stealth rock ***** the **** out of him dude, which I think was mentioned in the earlier posts.
Of course I am not as knowledgeable as you when it comes to Charizard of that I'll admit, its probably from the way I play but I don't feel that Charizard really performs better than Snic. If he does it isn't that noticeable for me.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
SL stop debating so hard, its not that big a deal dude, and right after i apologise for your ignorance, you say stupid stuff again...
/facepalm
1. i agreee with rage that chars recovery is either average or slightly above because of his 3 jumps, glide and powerful up b
2. Dont fool yourself, sonic has bad, if not, terrible priority. the amount of damage each move does, has little bearing on priority, speed and range are the more important factors. which charizard has more than sonic because of his large body and deceiving speed, as steeler explained
3. and in the air, he fairs just as badly because anybody that is taller or more disjointed than sonic in the air, can light him up. the only reason he might be seen as average is because of his movement capabilities which allow him to get to the point where his attacks hit before others attacks. but that does not mean his priority is good, its not.
4. just because flamethrower to f-air isnt a true combo and you can get out of it when you know 2 hours ahead of time when its coming, doesnt mean that it doesnt work.
5. the fact that sonics f-air sucks people into the move, is exactly the reason its so easy to get out of it. you dont even have to SDI, all you have to do is DI toward the way thats its pulling you and you pop out the other side with no hit stun.
6. spikes. the point is that char has a spike that is pretty powerful and since he is a heavyweight, the hitbox has an ok size, where as sonic doesnt have one. dont be so dismissive.
7. the fact that sonic and chars skill sets are so opposite is why they are about the same when it comes to how good a character is. char may have a hard time approaching but that doesnt matter because when he does, its gonna hurt.
8. just because a character isnt as good with your specific playstyle doesnt mean that they are not a just a good, or better character. that is what you are saying and you are wrong.
/facepalm
1. i agreee with rage that chars recovery is either average or slightly above because of his 3 jumps, glide and powerful up b
2. Dont fool yourself, sonic has bad, if not, terrible priority. the amount of damage each move does, has little bearing on priority, speed and range are the more important factors. which charizard has more than sonic because of his large body and deceiving speed, as steeler explained
3. and in the air, he fairs just as badly because anybody that is taller or more disjointed than sonic in the air, can light him up. the only reason he might be seen as average is because of his movement capabilities which allow him to get to the point where his attacks hit before others attacks. but that does not mean his priority is good, its not.
4. just because flamethrower to f-air isnt a true combo and you can get out of it when you know 2 hours ahead of time when its coming, doesnt mean that it doesnt work.
5. the fact that sonics f-air sucks people into the move, is exactly the reason its so easy to get out of it. you dont even have to SDI, all you have to do is DI toward the way thats its pulling you and you pop out the other side with no hit stun.
6. spikes. the point is that char has a spike that is pretty powerful and since he is a heavyweight, the hitbox has an ok size, where as sonic doesnt have one. dont be so dismissive.
7. the fact that sonic and chars skill sets are so opposite is why they are about the same when it comes to how good a character is. char may have a hard time approaching but that doesnt matter because when he does, its gonna hurt.
8. just because a character isnt as good with your specific playstyle doesnt mean that they are not a just a good, or better character. that is what you are saying and you are wrong.
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree. I've got to get ready for OH Snap and won't be around for a couple of days because of this. Also, with it being the weekend, I'm sure Ankoku is expecting tournament results to be posted soon so we should free up the topic and not bury them in our massive posts.
gantrain05
Smash Master
i got a tourney tomorrow, get ready to add a win to peach's record ankoku!
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
i think ill be going all sonic for the first time in any of my tourneys tomarrow...
Darkmusician
Smash Master
I updated the Hawaii Tournament Results thread. SBHM5 and SBHM6 are the only two that count. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=172778
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
Ground priority is dictated by the amount of damage. It follows a ten percent rule.
Speed has no bearing upon priority.
Olimar's pikmin are fast but have little priority.
Which is why I speak overall. Anyone with a disjointed attack will beat someone without disjoints priority wise simply because their disjointed hitbox will touch the hurtbox first.
Sonic's aerial priority is average (maye below average) when you compare it to the entire cast but it is far from terrible.
This is true but this is only the case in which you have strings.
For example in melee, Marth's grabs didn't combo but they placed the opponent in a compromising position.
Flamethrower does not place the opponent in such a compromising position.
mmk
You mean because he is large and having a wide hitbox is not always as good as havign along one.
The hitbox for charizard's Dair in cmparison to ganon's Dair is wider, however Ganns Dair has much more length and range.
So by the time that Charizard moves in for a Dair, he can be struck with a Uair from a large amount of characters.
This is risk vs reward.
For example characters like Marth have little risk but are highly rewarded.
In Charizards case he has incredibly high risk and incredible reard but those risks hurt the reward.
as I stated earlier, when Charizard hits it will hurt. The problem being is that when is he going to hit?
This is the issue when any character faces Olimar.
You'll take a high amount f damage before you hit him and considering how bad the game engine is, you normally cannot follow up and maintain that advantage.
S if I am taking 50% damage every time I get close to lOimar and land 32% damage, clearly I will most likely get KO'ed before him despite being a heavy weight.
it is why Characters like marth and Mk are that **** good because they have low risk and high reward and can maintain that advantage once they've damaged the opponent.
Can you say that Charizards risk does not outweigh the reward when he is being camped?
Don't skim my posts and don't accuse me of saying stupid things when you agree with my points but disagree with the conclusion.
infomon
Smash Scientist
Ehh, I'm gonna have to go ahead and call you out on this one. There are many different meanings for the word "priority"; you're talking about the very technical meaning in Brawl, which I would define as "the interaction of overlapping hitboxes"... but there are so many other factors that are relevant for the perception of priority in the game: the disjointedness of hitbox to hurtbox (yes I'm talking about ground moves as well as aerials), speed at which the hitbox comes out and duration it's active, rapidity of multi-hit attacks (ex. MK's aerial tornado generally beats G&W's Bair because the 'nado hits more rapidly), etc. These are attributes you might choose to ignore for one priority discussion, but they're all quite relevant when talking about the general usefulness of a character's moveset.
As a Sonic main, I argue both that Sonic's priority isn't that bad (so we agree about that), but furthermore I would say that if disjointedness, hitbox duration, etc. should be considered aspects of priority (which I think they should be for this conversation), then you might as well consider Sonic's strength in making up for this lack-of-priority by being quick at getting in-and-out of attack range, thus rendering his moveset equivalent in this context.
But you chose not to take that route, and instead continue to flail the very technical definition of priority which ignores the considerations that are not strictly hitbox-vs-hitbox. Here I can't support you. Those interactions are only relevant with respect to their relative frequency of occurrence in high-level matches. Furthermore, I don't know what you'd have to say about MK; his ground priority is simultaneously the worst and the best in the game, as his moveset mostly declines all interaction with opponent hitboxes? Good luck with that.
notftomearth7
Smash Lord
While I don't agree with all of the list, I'm inclined to believe it, because the results actually look legi.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
since its friday and to keep the santity of ankokus thread im changing the subject.
so how many tourneys will MK win this weekend?
so how many tourneys will MK win this weekend?
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
The reason his ground priority is among he best and worst is because it is transcendent. It does not interact with anything except hurtboxes so there are alot of moves that can break through simply because they have the range to do so.
Most call it laser priority.
A number of his mvoes like his Dsmash and Fsmash do obey the 10% rule.
Now the main reason I use the strict definition so primarily because that is what people refer to when they mention priority. priority really only comes into play when it comes to hitboxes interacting with each other.
Sonic's ability to get around a disjointed attack from MK in order to land a Bair circumvents priority itself. So why mention it?
Sonics Fsmash vs DK's Fsmash. one does 14% another does 20%.
If the two meet they will clang unless Sonic is a bit closer in which case his disjointed hitbox will touch DK's hurtbox.
It circumvents priority it isn't interacting with it. There won't be a little clang bubble, Dk will go flying off to one side.
It is best t talk about priority in the strictest sense primarily because it is the most clear.
If we were to factor in things such as Sonic's movement ability, the speed of the move, it starts to appear more arbitrary. So its best to stick t the most technical definition unless required (like Olimar's aerials which behave completely different).
n cases such as Olimar's thats when many other factors come into play such as the endurance of the move (which is why his fair Bair and Dair do not have the same priority as Uair)
Our perception of priority is much more relevant to how disjointed a hitbox is from the visible character model; Snake's utilt has a metric fuckton of priority because he hits you and the attack isn't even close to actually visibly connecting with you. Luigi's priority on his nair is silly because it tends to override other attacks with what appears to us to be thin air.
When it comes to technical priority, the only thing that matters is when two attacks collide; otherwise arguing about priority in the strictest sense is irrelevant.
When it comes to technical priority, the only thing that matters is when two attacks collide; otherwise arguing about priority in the strictest sense is irrelevant.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
That is what i mean. When two attacks interact with each other. I am not being very clear today @_@
if Snakes Utilt smashes through Dk's Fsmash. Then its because Snake's utilt is tuching DK's hurtbox first, not that the two attacks meet and it gets overpowered, they end up clanging as usual.
if Snakes Utilt smashes through Dk's Fsmash. Then its because Snake's utilt is tuching DK's hurtbox first, not that the two attacks meet and it gets overpowered, they end up clanging as usual.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
cool story bro
Unless Atomsk gays us really hard.
I'm hosting a huge NJ event that will have teh_spamerer and I at it, we got 1st and 2nd last time with Bum, Atomsk, and NinjaLink/Snakeee following. With NinjaLink and Snakeee not attending and Bum being a maybe, it looks like teh_spamerer and I might run free and take it even more easily this time.
Unless Atomsk gays us really hard.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
inui you up for a game? Not online of course. Maybe I can get NL to come if I beg him enough <_<
Inui
Banned via Warnings
Come to the huge NJ event tomorrow. Screw school.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I can't skip school dude. Its against my moral code.Come to the huge NJ event tomorrow. Screw school.
however my class ends at 12:00 p.m..
Just give me a link, the location rather that way I can head ver there after school. Hell I may bring a few drinks since I know people die of thirst at tournaments.
Inui
Banned via Warnings
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
this is the kind of thing that annoys me...
i wonder if inui knew how awesome he would be if he could
1. admit the possibility of him being wrong
2. stop being an arrogant **** on tha intarwebz
i wonder if inui knew how awesome he would be if he could
1. admit the possibility of him being wrong
2. stop being an arrogant **** on tha intarwebz
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
I can't go sadly. Signups are too early for me and it would take me over an hour to get there. =/
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