Character Ranking List - Project M - updated 4/4

[Kink-Link5]

Mostly because of Overswarm's insulting behavior toward me. http://smashboards.com/threads/334291/#post-15344764

It isn't just the fact that it's abrasive behavior, and it isn't something that would normally bother me from average users, but when a person in a position of authority or officialism (word check?) uses that position to talk like this it makes it more of an issue. A similar matter between one of the PM characters developers and I occurred as well. It isn't what was said, but what the implications someone in a position such as Overswarm's (Or, for another example, say a person compiling character hitbox and other move information) saying it are. If I were to make a more comprehensive Charizard info dump, I'd certainly hope people to ask about what isn't included and do anything in my power to obtain the information.

That being said, I behaved poorly and reacted in a childish way. Passive aggressive snips and snarks aren't the way to handle a situation like this.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Overswarm doesn't actually have any authority though, outside of being a TO in his region, and being a guy who.. makes graphs. I guess if you consider "guy who makes graphs" to be the same thing as "person of authority", then your concern is valid...

It's not like he's in the PMBR, or is a Moderator or anything, unless I'm missing something. All he did was make a thread. Then you came in here and started ****ting on it, so he told you to stfu (though he was much more eloquent). I fail to see the problem.

 

[Kink-Link5]

It's the same position as I said a person compiling character data or writing a guide has. It's a degree of officiality that leaves a bitter mark to say, and emphasize things like "No one cares" about a statistic being asked. Especially when BR members are endorsing and supporting the endeavor, and it deals with matters related to the work of the metagame, it certainly is a position of authority, being "THE GUY" that is running all this data and putting it up while making claims that it is a proper and just indicator of where the metagame will go.

Again, though, it is my fault for behaving how I did. I'm just moody I guess, and always have been. I wish I could say it won't happen again but all I can do is say I'll try to control my emotions better.

 

[Oracle]

Kink you're making it sound like he personally attacked you. He explained why that data is irrelevant and not worth his time to collect, which is pretty obvious considering you're the only one who cares. If you want statistics on straight up character popularity, then make them yourself. Don't cry on the boards because big bad overswarm disagreed with you

 

[traffic.]

Guys. Seriously. Stahp. Dude acts like an entitled brat, has no sense of his own behaviour, and then cries whenever he isn't treated the way he thinks he should be. You can't argue or reason with someone who doesn't believe causality applies to their own actions. Just ignore him when he is picking fights, and you dont reward his bad behaviour with attention. Moving on.

If so far you dont like the way your character is reflected on these charts, start winning more with them! Quit trying to think there's some kind of correlation between your opinion and the data here. If you think it's lame Bowser wins all the time, work on your Bowser matchup. If you blame the community because no one thinks your character is any good, prove them wrong by getting better and upload some sick combo videos!

 

[#HBC | Joker]

lol, combo videos do not affect this chart

 

[Kink-Link5]

Guys. Seriously. Stahp. Dude acts like an entitled brat, has no sense of his own behaviour, and then cries whenever he isn't treated the way he thinks he should be. You can't argue or reason with someone who doesn't believe causality applies to their own actions. Just ignore him when he is picking fights, and you dont reward his bad behaviour with attention. Moving on.

If so far you dont like the way your character is reflected on these charts, start winning more with them! Quit trying to think there's some kind of correlation between your opinion and the data here. If you think it's lame Bowser wins all the time, work on your Bowser matchup. If you blame the community because no one thinks your character is any good, prove them wrong by getting better and upload some sick combo videos!

This is exactly the kind of dismissive attitude and diction that causes problems to persist.

"Entitled"

"Brat"

"Cries"

"Picking fights"

"Reward bad behavior"

"Seeking attention"

If you aren't going to be a part of the solution, you don't really need to fester and feed the problem.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

this thread is gonna get closed because everybody is being stupid and not talking about the actual topic at hand

shuuuutttt uuuuupppppp

this rankings list is really cool and is an interesting alternate to a "tier list" perspective

but all you're doing is bickering about things that aren't relevant



juust stttooopppppp no more "getting the last word in" or anything - dont even respond to this post at all - just stop

 

[Kink-Link5]

Is there going to be a graph or chart showing the characters' movement over time? Either showing points earned by month or just total points over time with month intervals would be acceptable. The latter would serve a twofold bit of information showing the slopes of character success over time as well as the total impact they have on the metagame.

 

[traffic.]

lol, combo videos do not affect this chart

No of course not My point was that people should spend less time talking about their feels on the subject and play the game.

 

[humble]

Is there going to be a graph or chart showing the characters' movement over time? Either showing points earned by month or just total points over time with month intervals would be acceptable. The latter would serve a twofold bit of information showing the slopes of character success over time as well as the total impact they have on the metagame.

Overswarm makes graphs to decide what he's having for breakfast every morning, I'm pretty sure he'll graph something like the change between character rankings over time.

 

[Overswarm]

Minor update with the new tournaments added! Let me know if I'm missing any tournaments.

 

[metroid1117]

Nice job, Overswarm! Sonic and DK got HUGE jumps lol.

 

[Overswarm]

Yes, but they aren't permanent jumps. Strong Bad and Sethlon are the only ones really repping these characters. Unless others pick them up, they won't stay very high.

 

[Strong Badam]

Don't forget Eli!

 

[Rat]

I would also like to see how a character has done over time. (In addition to current place and delta points.) That's pretty irrelevant now but would cool in a year or so. Or even between releases!

Also kinda wonder how you set-up the tables. I'd probably do two.
Results Table
EventID - PlayerName - Placement - Prize - # of Characters Used - Character 1 - Character 2 - ... - Character N (#Used)
Event Table
EventID - Event Name - Start Date - End Date - Entry Fee - # of Entrants

EventID is number (uint) unique to each event. And I might add rows for Event Type and Format. (Event Type: Singles, Doubles, etc. Format: RR, Dbl Elim, etc.)

And If I was really feeling it, I'd make another table for Stages!
EventID - Stage Type - # of Stages - Stage 1 - Stage 2 - ... - Stage N (# of stages)

Stage Type: Random, Strike, Counterpick, Banned, TO yelling arbitrary stage names that everyone must play on, etc.


Also you could do one big old table too.
Event Name - Start Date - End Date - Entry Fee - # of Entrants - 1st Place Name - 1st Place Prize - 1st Place Characters - 2nd Place Name - 2nd Place Prize - 2nd Place Characters -...-8th Place Name - 8th Place Prize - 8th Place Characters



Wow I kinda went deep with this post. lol.

 

[Rat]

dbl post:
I'm also proud to have organized such a swingy event. (Half of all the money won comes from one event?) Take that other data points!

Step it up PM TOs.

 

[Overswarm]

Entry fee is a big part of the equation. While one $15 entry fee tournament makes an impressive swing, over time $15 entry fee tournaments would have a dwindling playerbase or simply wouldn't be as prominent. What's more, the $15 events that occurred would have a higher propensity towards players that have a reasonable chance at placing, thus making the wins more worthwhile.

I cannot gather any information on stages because it is not reliable to obtain.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

washington is having another tournament tomorrow! #10 entry again, y'all better be watching!

I feel like we're gonna see Wolf and Peach getting a lot of points and potentially Mario getting some bonus points too at this one. Let's hope Bowser does well enough at the third 2.5 tournament in Washington haha

if you DO want to watch it (shameless plug incoming) it'll be streamed on my channel was well as Gameclucks channel - my channel being located below

http://www.twitch.tv/62bitgaming

 

[Rat]

OOOOOOR

If you want to see the Best Bowser in the world - you should tune into the Chicagoland tournament tomorrow:
www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime


We've also got some other amazing dragon-type characters.

 

[Overswarm]

If we are assuming this Character Rankings list can also be used to determine the most successful players for each character, Gimpyfish is the undisputed most successful Bowser, compromising over 1/3rd of all of Bowser's points.

Gimpyfish - 21.875 (35%)
Kirk - 17.75 (28.4%)
Majora88 - 7.19 (11.5%)
Trail - 6.56 (10.5%)
Overswarm - 5.291 (8.47%)
Cmart - 1.375 (2.2%)
Goodin - 1.75 (2.8%)
,.., - .71 (1.14%)

Financially speaking, I believe Sethlon may be ahead due to his large winning and OoS bonus (although this bonus is not used in any character ranking determinations).

 

[Rat]

You could assume the Character Rankings List to be accurate, OOOOOOOR
you could Tune in tomorrow and see for youself.
www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime

 

[Gimpyfish62]

haha

wow

been a while since people cared about "best bowser"

he [bowser] truly HAS come a long way

 

[Overswarm]

haha

wow

been a while since people cared about "best bowser"

he [bowser] truly HAS come a long way

I'm more interested in whether or not early trends (like this early) are actually indicative of future success.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

in my opinion bowser is one of the worst characters in this game at a top level haha

 

[Kink-Link5]

The real question is what Bowser colour is doing the best in tournament*.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

My guess would be that Bowser ends up settling into high tier. Certain characters will undoubtedly find ways of countering Bowser, but it will depend on how common those characters become in the metagame. I have a feeling that Lucario may be a counter to Bowser, but I haven't tested it because in my group of friends, I'm the one who plays both those characters :/

 

[chenjesu]

you guys just wait until I rock ivysaur to first place. Ivysaur is super broken.

 

[Strong Badam]

out of curiosity, OS, if I had won SCSYN5, would DK be A tier on this?

 

[metroid1117]

If my math is right, 1st got 35.63 pts ([10*15*38]/160 = 35.625) and 2nd got 24.94 ([7*15*38]/160 = 24.9375), so DK would've gotten 10.69 more pts. This would've bumped DK up to 47.66 pts from the current 36.97 pts, so I think he could be considered A tier just based on the point spread.

 

[Trinsic]

Bowser's easy learning curve may have a lot to do with his current success. Not everything, but a lot. Right now he's probably the easiest character in the game to get good with fast, which is definitely a big, if not the biggest, contributor to his current popularity. Earlier on in 2.1's release everyone thought Mario was amazing, something which may have been due to "easy-to-learn" always having been a core part of Mario's design in Smash. Now that people have had more time with the other characters Mario isn't regarded so highly, though the changes made in 2.5 are obviously a big factor in that as well.

So now I'm wondering two things.
1. Is Bowser getting such great results due to his easy learning curve, or does he have an easy learning curve because he's just THAT good?
2. If other characters manage to catch up in performance at tourneys, will Bowser's easy learning curve keep him a popular choice anyway?

I'm really looking forward to seeing this metagame develop.

And I'm sure it's already been said, but thanks Overswarm for keeping track of and calculating all this stuff.

 

[traffic.]

Bowser's strengths are hugely apparent when placed against the spread of skill. Unless you are really solid enough to combo Bowser to death without taking those 1-3 hits it takes to die a horrible death, you are going to have a harder time against Bowser. His raw power just wins in every unlucky trade and until you really learn to space him and go balls deep to devastate him, he has a lot going for him. The higher level of play you go, the less characters play themselves, and the more you are really playing an individual that now has a set of tools. Bowser has every reason to be on top at the beginning, but once the general game evolves to beat that style, there will be a srs lull where everybody's bread and butter is a vs Bowser game. Or they will shave off the slight edge on his ATK% and he can sit comfortably balanced as a third tier character with a simple metagame for introducing noobins.

Semper Fidelis Tyrannosaurus.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

i think bowser's learning curve is most definitely a big part of why he's a success. Look at DDD in Brawl, he quickly emerged as a powerhouse because the optimal playstyle for him was figured out very quickly. Chaingrabs, and wop bair. It's very simple and easy, so he rose quickly. Over time he has slid down the tier list into high tier, and he's become much more rare in the brawl metagame.

I feel like Bowser is in the same position. He's pretty easy to pick up and learn to play on a basic level, and basic level Bowser stuff is very powerful. So right now, he's kind of at the peak of his success. He'll probably stay up there for awhile, but I'm pretty sure he'll eventually settle down into high tier, especially if the characters who can beat him (characters with good grab games, imo) become common enough.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Specifically with vDeDeDe is that most characters in his matchup tier go even with one another for the most part, while he loses to characters in and below his tier. He has by far the most polarized matchups in Brawl compared to, say, vZSS that goes basically even with every character down through the latter third of the cast, allowing her to consistently stand a chance regardless of matchup. vDeDeDe has the higher matchup average, but going +3 against vBowser isn't exactly tournament winning criteria.

Bowser:M could very well be just as polarizing as vDeDeDe, and thus have a constant degree of uncertainty to his success, but only time will tell.

 

[PB&J]

Follow me on twitch http://www.twitch.tv/pbnj23

I will be streaming PM and Melee more often now

 

[Sethlon]

OOOOOOR

If you want to see the Best Bowser in the world - you should tune into the Chicagoland tournament tomorrow:
www.twitch.tv/kirkiusprime


We've also got some other amazing dragon-type characters.

Lies and slander! Charizard is fire/flying type, not dragon!

Props for compiling all this stuff OS, I'm very interested to see what the lists will be like down the line

 

[Oracle]

Is this getting updated any time soon?

 

[Overswarm]

Is this getting updated any time soon?

Yep. I update it whenever metroid's thread updates and I get time to sit down and do all the calculations. I do most of it through functions in excel but the actual editing requires some manual stuff.

 

[Overswarm]

Update today. There were a lot of tournaments I could have added, but janky TOs didn't add the characters for the top 8 characters. If you're missing one of the 7th placers, okay, that happens. Missing everyone from 4th on down? Not added.

 

[MonkUnit]

Have you posted in their tournament threads asking for that information?