Character Match-ups: Who has the best/worst?

[Tornadith]

Idea
After looking the board of character match-ups, I decided to make a project like this. This project takes all of the information (which is not done yet) and shows how good a character is based on his match-ups.

The Formula

Big Advantage = 2 points
Advantage = 1 point
Even = 0 points
Disadvantage = -1 point
Big Disadvantage = -2 points

NOTE: All of the information for this comes from the character match-up board on this thread: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=186338. The formula for this thread is also taken from their formula.
I did NOT count the white/silver spaces in the graph, seeing as they are minor and are still undecided upon.

How to read the colors:
30/70-10/90(Red)

Spoiler

-----

-big disadvantage
40/60-35/65(Orange)-disadvantage
55/45-45/55(Yellow)

Spoiler

--

-even
60/40-65/35(Green)

Spoiler

--

-advantage
70/30-90/10(Blue)

Spoiler

----

-big advantage

Characters (Character roster order)

Mario = 0
Luigi = -4
Peach = -1
Bowser = -5
Donkey Kong = -1
Diddy Kong = 0
Yoshi = 2
Wario = 5
Link = -11
Zelda = 1
Shiek = 0
Zelda/Shiek = 6
Gannondorf = -7
Toon Link = -5
Samus = -11
Zero Suit Samus = 4
Pit = -3
Ice Climbers = 4
Olimar = 4
Kirby = 3
Meta Knight = 41
King DeDeDe = -2
ROB = 3
Fox = -17
Falco = 14
Wolf = -1
Captain Falcon = -19
Pikachu = 1
Pokemon Trainer = -3
Squirtle = -6
Ivysaur = -2
Charizard = -3
Lucario = 2
Jigglypuff = 0
Marth = 28
Ike = -10
Lucas = -3
Ness = -3
Mr. Game and Watch = 6
Snake = -1
Sonic = -4

Match-Up Tier List

1. Meta Knight (41)
2. Marth (28)
3. Falco (14)
4. Zelda/Shiek, Mr. Game and Watch (6)
6. Wario (5)
7. Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Olimar (4)
10. Kirby, ROB (3)
13. Yoshi, Lucario (2)
14. Pikachu, Shiek (1)
16. Mario, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Diddy Kong (0)
20. Snake, Peach, Donkey Kong, Wolf (-1)
24. King DeDeDe, Ivysaur (-2)
26. Pit, Pokemon Trainer, Charizard, Lucas, Ness (-3)
31. Sonic, Luigi (-4)
33. Toon Link, Bowser (-5)
35. Squirtle (-6)
36. Gannondorf (-7)
37. Ike (-10)
38. Samus, Link (-11)
40. Fox (-17)
41. Captain Falcon (-19)

Spoiler

Seems that if a character even breaks EVEN, they have pretty good match-ups.

If you feel that I have made a mistake in the list, or if I missed something while adding up all of the points and looking at all of the match-ups, please post what it is. Thanks!

Discuss away!

 

[Wylde]

Interesting.

 

[SirDumpling]

Uhh...you forgot one thing...

 

[Aran]

i'm surprised that snake actually has a negative value. where are the spacies? and how did you do zelda/shiek?

 

[Zhamy]

You realize this will be incomplete until the character boards have a definite number on every matchup?

 

[DanGR]

I would bold, highlight, underline, italicize, and enlarge the part saying that it's not even close to being complete.

 

[Browny]

Sonic has a disadvantage to every character with a d-tilt

so... -38

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Sonic himself has a dtilt too.

-39.

 

[1048576]

This doesn't really do anything. The matchup numbers need to be weighted. For example, going even with metaknight is way more valuable to the viability of a character than ****** DK 99:1.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Match-Up Tier List

1. Meta Knight (41)
2. Marth (28)
3. Zelda/Shiek, Mr. Game and Watch (6)
5. Wario (5)
6. Zero Suit Samus, Ice Climbers, Olimar (4)
9. Kirby, ROB (3)
12. Yoshi, Lucario (2)
13. Pikachu (1)
14. Mario, Shiek, Jigglypuff, Zelda, Diddy Kong (0)
19. Snake, Peach, Donkey Kong (-1)
22. King DeDeDe, Ivysaur (-2)
24. Pit, Pokemon Trainer, Charizard, Lucas, Ness (-3)
29. Sonic, Luigi (-4)
31. Toon Link, Bowser (-5)
33. Squirtle (-6)
34. Gannondorf (-7)
35. Ike (-10)
36. Samus, Link (-11)

lolololololol lololollolololol lololololololol ololololololol
Bwahahahaha bwajhahahahahahah olololololololl llolol rofl XDDD
olololol roflcopter XDDD lolololol
lolololollo Bwhahahahahahahahahah öololololololololol
RRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOO~FFFFFFFFFFL XDDD


...

Just in case you don't realize it:
MARTH'S MATCH-UP'S AREN'T BETTER THAN SNAKE'S OR D3, ESPECIALLY NOT THAT MUCH

D3 alone makes ~2/3 of the cast unviable. Snake has ~1 and a half bad match-up's and Marth has lots of match-up's that are not in his favour. There is no way that Marth is 17 spots higher than Snake...


Could that mean, that the Character Boards are actually full of fail?

 

[Rawnie]

lolololololol lololollolololol lololololololol ololololololol
Bwahahahaha bwajhahahahahahah olololololololl llolol rofl XDDD
olololol roflcopter XDDD lolololol
lolololollo Bwhahahahahahahahahah öololololololololol
RRRRRRRRRRRRRROOOOOO~FFFFFFFFFFL XDDD


...

Just in case you don't realize it:
MARTH'S MATCH-UP'S AREN'T BETTER THAN SNAKE'S OR D3, ESPECIALLY NOT THAT MUCH

D3 alone makes ~2/3 of the cast unviable. Snake has ~1 and a half bad match-up's and Marth has lots of match-up's that are not in his favour. There is no way that Marth is 17 spots higher than Snake...


Could that mean, that the Character Boards are actually full of fail?

Well if u check this match-up link, many of Snake's and D3's match'ups have not been filled in. once all those are filled in, they will rise higher.

Oh and Marth doesn't have lots of bad match-ups he only has 3 bad matchups. 2 of them are almost even

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh and Marth doesn't have lots of bad match-ups he only has 3 bad matchups. 2 of them are almost even

I didn't say "bad" match-up's. I said "not in his favour".

The main problem, of course is that the rating of the match-up is ignored. King Dedede has like five 8/2 match-uo's...Marth has no such match-up's.

 

[Monkey Wrench]

This doesn't really do anything. The matchup numbers need to be weighted. For example, going even with metaknight is way more valuable to the viability of a character than ****** DK 99:1.

This. Something like 1.5x for top tier matchups, 1.25x for high, 1x for mid, etc.
Or if you want to be really specific, you can use the points in the Character Rankings List to weight matchups exactly by % of total points.

 

[Rawnie]

I didn't say "bad" match-up's. I said "not in his favour".

The main problem, of course is that the rating of the match-up is ignored. King Dedede has like five 8/2 match-uo's...Marth has no such match-up's.

my mistake.

However Marth does have an 8/2 match-up. two of them i believe. it may not be as much as D3 though.

 

[Straider]

I did NOT count the white/silver spaces in the graph, seeing as they are minor and are still undecided upon.

That's the reason the list is so odd, snake in the matchup chart is unfinished the same of many others.

 

[demodemo]

yeah you need to wait for the matchup chart to mature..

anyway, it is a fact that zelda/sheik has very very good matchups, since they are completely opposite characters in one. It does not necessarily mean they are good, just not bad against a lot of characters. Of course, there are still uber characters that **** both characters like gaw and MK

 

[1048576]

This. Something like 1.5x for top tier matchups, 1.25x for high, 1x for mid, etc.
Or if you want to be really specific, you can use the points in the Character Rankings List to weight matchups exactly by % of total points.

The guy who did this last time for melee used a recursive function which first weighted the matchups evenly, then weighted it based on where each character ended up, then repeated this process until the numbers stabilized.

 

[Corpse]

How is Ganondorf above Link?

 

[LinIsKorean]

It's a work in progress, don't start making OMG HE CAN'T BE HIGHER THAN THAT CHARACTER!!11! comments until he finishes. Jeez.

 

[Barge]

Wheres captain Falcon.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wheres captain Falcon.

Bottom tier, son

 

[B!ggad]

It does not necessarily mean they are good

How does it not mean that they are good when they have very good match ups?

Also, I wouldn't call 60-65/40-35 match ups ****.

 

[Tornadith]

Yeah guys, there are TONS of match-ups that are not done or decided upon what degree of advantage they are so....this list is a very rough depiction right now but as the character match-up board matures, so will this list.

Spoiler

Sorry for forgetting to be Captain Falcon in.

 

[Tornadith]

This. Something like 1.5x for top tier matchups, 1.25x for high, 1x for mid, etc.
Or if you want to be really specific, you can use the points in the Character Rankings List to weight matchups exactly by % of total points.

The guy who did this last time for melee used a recursive function which first weighted the matchups evenly, then weighted it based on where each character ended up, then repeated this process until the numbers stabilized.

I don't really get how this would effect the list or make it more accurate. Some explain please. Thanks

 

[1048576]

Because Metaknight has very good matchups, he will be seen a lot in competitive circles. Hence, it is more valuable for a character to have a good matchup with Metaknight than it is for them to **** a character with generally bad matchups, because nobody would use that character anyway.

Even though D3 has better matchups overall, he is still considered worse than Snake, because Snake has better matchups with the characters that matter most (Falco, MK, G-Dub)

 

[Remzi]

This is HORRIBLY inaccurate because it isn't weighted at all. Snake and D3 negative? Nuff said.

You need another scale besides +2, +1, 0, etc. A neutral matchup against Captain Falcon for example should be negative points. While an advantageous macthup on MK or Snake should be more than 3 points.

 

[CaliburChamp]

LMAO!
Pathetic... Snake is soooo low on the match up list. Snake is definitly 2nd or 3rd.

 

[Brinzy]

1) People, it's not even complete.

2) Zelda should be tied with Pikachu if she has +1

 

[Frown]

This thread shouldn't be made until that chart is done.

 

[1048576]

This is HORRIBLY inaccurate because it isn't weighted at all. Snake and D3 negative? Nuff said.

You need another scale besides +2, +1, 0, etc. A neutral matchup against Captain Falcon for example should be negative points. While an advantageous macthup on MK or Snake should be more than 3 points.

Lol what. Any matchup on Falcon is worth next to zero because Falcon sucks.

Also, to weigh it easier, I would use all positive numbers. (0-4)

 

[M@v]

Its sad to see that so few character boards are biased.....

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

How is ganon above Ike? Ike at least 1 advantage in that chart while ganon has none...

Also the PT boards seemed to agree that squirtle was Ike's advantage so that should be added too.

edit: I see it now it's because you take off points for disadvantages. Maybe you should change that because it makes less completed characters look better than they are.

 

[rehab]

wario is overall positive? interesting

 

[Tornadith]

Here's what I'm thinking of doing.

Top Tier
Match-ups x 2.00

High Tier
Match-ups x 1.66

Middle Tier
Match-ups x 1.33

Low Tier
Match-ups x 1

Should I do this formula for disadvantages AND advantage or just advantages?

 

[1048576]

Well, the idea is that when the matchup results come in, the tier list changes.

 

[Tornadith]

Well, the idea is that when the matchup results come in, the tier list changes.

But the Tier List only changes periodically. There aren't small changes like everyday. I'll probably make these changes after the second tier list comes out.

 

[Winston]

1). Theoretically, a tier list should actually be BASED on this process (determining who has the best matchups overall), not just correlate it. This is because "who has the best overall matchups" is the same thing as "who has the best overall chance of winning a given tournament assuming equal skill levels".

2). Having a simple weighting system (as you suggested a few posts up) is much better than having none at all, because matchups among the characters that are most played are MUCH more important than the rest. Also, you should DEFINITELY weight disadvantages as well as advantages.

3). I don't know if Ankoku's list is still running (or something similar), but if is, you should just weight each matchup by the character's value from the Character Ranking List. I think that would be the best approach.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Here's what I'm thinking of doing.

Top Tier
Match-ups x 2.00

High Tier
Match-ups x 1.66

Middle Tier
Match-ups x 1.33

Low Tier
Match-ups x 1

Should I do this formula for disadvantages AND advantage or just advantages?

I would go with this that way ganon won't be above Ike and fox. I think this might bring marth down a bit too so even if you where to start using this now you could seem some big changes.

edit: never mind I'm not sure what this would do lol. what does tier placement have to do with match up values?

 

[demodemo]

uhh if you weight it, like saying a character is better because they are good against metaknight (diddy for isntance) then aren't you making a tier list?

I thought a matchup list would indicate who does the best against the cast, not who does the best to tournament viable characters.

 

[YagamiDark]

lolol metaknight has 41 xD