| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
I think its much more complicated than that
-
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Character Idea Submission Thread
- Thread starter bubbaking
- Start date
quoted for truth... the zelda/sheik suggestions I have been reading give both characters un-needed buffs (for instance, sheik's recovery does not need any help -- just because zelda's is "better" does not make her's bad). I mean, the fact that sheik is a AAA+ character with only 3 specials ought to indicate something...
WeenusChu
Smash Cadet
Requesting Samus SpeedBooster/Shinespark as addition to moveset and gameplay gimmick.
a vehicle
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2013
- Messages
- 124
I know this is pretty damn far fetched.
But after reading some about some of the problems the IC's suffer it's pretty easy to conclude that nana being a CP is the root for most of them.
The PMBR should test having nana only follow popo and perform recoveries as it does now, but stays passive (doesn't attack), instead have one of the specials to switch which one of the ICs is the player controlling.
Since melee's down-B was mostly used to desynch It wouldn't be so bad to overwrite that move, and move around all specials to match everything else
Neutral-B: swap ICs
Side-B: the ice blocks (current Neutral-B)
Down-B: the spinning (current Side-B)
I don't know if that would break the game, I'm just saying that this needs testing.
Also I'm 100% sure that wobbling won't come back because being hit while grabbed doesn't stun you anymore (like it did in melee)
But after reading some about some of the problems the IC's suffer it's pretty easy to conclude that nana being a CP is the root for most of them.
The PMBR should test having nana only follow popo and perform recoveries as it does now, but stays passive (doesn't attack), instead have one of the specials to switch which one of the ICs is the player controlling.
Since melee's down-B was mostly used to desynch It wouldn't be so bad to overwrite that move, and move around all specials to match everything else
Neutral-B: swap ICs
Side-B: the ice blocks (current Neutral-B)
Down-B: the spinning (current Side-B)
I don't know if that would break the game, I'm just saying that this needs testing.
Also I'm 100% sure that wobbling won't come back because being hit while grabbed doesn't stun you anymore (like it did in melee)
Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
A longshot of an idea for Yoshi, but it popped into my head.
What if his neutral B wasn't his neutral B anymore, but an alternate throw? When he grabs someone, instead of hitting A or throwing them in a certain direction he could tap B and turn them into the egg, possibly increasing the mixups on his gameplay.
Not sure what to do with his neutral B if this was done, but it could be egg toss, giving him possibly more control over egg throws. Just a thought.
What if his neutral B wasn't his neutral B anymore, but an alternate throw? When he grabs someone, instead of hitting A or throwing them in a certain direction he could tap B and turn them into the egg, possibly increasing the mixups on his gameplay.
Not sure what to do with his neutral B if this was done, but it could be egg toss, giving him possibly more control over egg throws. Just a thought.
Windstar120025
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2013
- Messages
- 75
sounds nice to me still think alternate beams would be nice though
There would literally be almost no point to this though.
Pwnz0rz Man
Smash Lord
You're probably right, I haven't played Yoshi in a long time. I was under the impression that his neutral B wasn't very good, but I'm probably wrong on that front as well.
Big Red
Smash Journeyman
Yoshi:
Bring back djc
Let him jump out of shield
keep vertical height bounce on up-b
That's really all he needs and he'll be fine
Bring back djc
Let him jump out of shield
keep vertical height bounce on up-b
That's really all he needs and he'll be fine
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
Plus if possible, change his egg shield to a normal shield, if not, make it more sensitive so that it would break easily
Generically Epic
Smash Ace
how about giving link his fairy taunt when he dies like diddy's clap. really all the characters who have had taunts replaced could use this, especially mario with his death animation. xD
Also, I think Sonic's recolors should be based on knuckles, shadow, and scourge. Just based on it, not actually the characters.... basically sonic cosplaying kunckles?
Also, I think Sonic's recolors should be based on knuckles, shadow, and scourge. Just based on it, not actually the characters.... basically sonic cosplaying kunckles?
what if ganon's wizard foot just ate projectiles? like, not clanked or anything, just straight up was invincible or somehow nullified all of them...
would probably have to only be after a certain point in the move.
would probably have to only be after a certain point in the move.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Because that's reserved for Charizard to never have.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
The move canceling both the start and end would kind of defeat the point of using any move in the first place. If landing simply canceled the move all together, it certainly ruins the point of cutting the start up.
Bowser with start up canceling and Charizard with ending cancel though, mmm.
Bowser with start up canceling and Charizard with ending cancel though, mmm.
I'm not clear on what you said. From what I gathered, you think people will just forgo Bowser's move set just to use flame? Or are you implying that being able to cancel on either situation nullifies the purpose? Considering the much shortened duration and bowsers immense size, I doubt it would be very spammable(?).
Was the startup shortened? I can possibly see that being a balancing concern, but im still reminded of bowsers slow and big stature being hard on him at faster gameplay. Flame isnt good enough to be much of anything outside of spacing, so I'd like to see what reverse cancelling can do for him.
Otherwise I'd like to see his jabs worked on.
Was the startup shortened? I can possibly see that being a balancing concern, but im still reminded of bowsers slow and big stature being hard on him at faster gameplay. Flame isnt good enough to be much of anything outside of spacing, so I'd like to see what reverse cancelling can do for him.
Otherwise I'd like to see his jabs worked on.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
If he cancels both the start up of the move by landing and the ending of the move by landing, he cancels the entire move before he even does it.
I don't think you quite understood me.
In the situation that bowser is to land without performing any attacks, he is able to use his flames as soon as he touches the floor.
What im proposing is If he were to use flames IN THE AIR, he would have the ability to cancel it as soon as hes on the floor in the same manner as stated above.
Not to mention you don't have to cancel the move. Have it blast as long as you'd like.
In the situation that bowser is to land without performing any attacks, he is able to use his flames as soon as he touches the floor.
What im proposing is If he were to use flames IN THE AIR, he would have the ability to cancel it as soon as hes on the floor in the same manner as stated above.
Not to mention you don't have to cancel the move. Have it blast as long as you'd like.
yogurtgun1245
Smash Apprentice
I don't like when taunts get overwritten personally, they should include more of the tap taunts like Ness'.
KingJigglypuff
Smash Ace
- Joined
- May 2, 2010
- Messages
- 679
Those aren't "Death Animations". They're Alternate Idle Poses, which occur randomly during the main Idle Pose.
I hope I didn't sound rude with that. .-.
Bowser actually has some pretty good jabs that stuff a lot of approaches. Also neutral B was a really good edgegaurding tactic against a lot of characters for when he was >100%. Bonus points if you land the chomp he does when you let go of B. On FD against a lot of the cast I can typically drop down with a side B and throw the opponent into the angled portion under the ledge.
Windstar120025
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2013
- Messages
- 75
Sorry this is in no way a decent suggestion he doesnt need anymore buffs
shadow0x0cloud
Smash Apprentice
I don't see how you can decide whether another persons opinion is correct or not.
eeeh, i don't like this mindset. it lets people get away with thinking and saying dumb things with no justification. i do appreciate the thought, though! he was a little bit gruff in his response and didn't really provide much in the way of his own opinion as to why it was bad.
and, actually, the thought came to me from reading a bunch of top players' opinions in what i thought was the tier list thread, but after going back through it, i can't find the posts where they talked about ganon not being so good and just needing a little something something to deal with projectiles or something like that... so i'm pretty much out of all of my citations at this point : /
Generically Epic
Smash Ace
no, you didn't. I thought it was a death pose because that's the only time i've seen it happen. Well, I'm fine for that being link's idle pose.
Also, if you held sonic's flippy dancy taunt, i think he should be able to continue it.
\Apples
Smash Journeyman
This assumes every frame of the move checks for both cancel conditions. His suggestion could be done if the traditional flame cancelling conditions were only checked before flames come out; then after flames have come out, check for land cancel conditions (i.e. special button has been released). Pretty simple actually.
That said, I don't endorse that change. It just makes too much more sense for Charizard to have something like that, not that he needs it but it would be a pretty neat way to give him an approach option. I think it's too silly though.
JOE!
Smash Hero
TOo silly for CHariard to breathe fire at you THEN FLY THROUGH THE FLAMES AND KILL YOU?
Actually this kind of thing would examplify the fact that he's such a heavy character and gives him options against Fox, Falco, Wolf, Shiek, and anyone else that has ******** projectiles. I guess I should also mention that it's not like Ganon is by any means top tier or anything.
Wrestlemania
The Steel Chair
I agree how many times has someone won a tourney with just Ganon, Wizards foot is already really punishable being able to plow through projectiles would make it in no way broken. If someone tried to spam it they would end up getting punched in the face.
Putting this out there:
Yoshi's Egg Throw should work like ylink's bombs, where there's a hitbox for the egg itself, then the broken shell has a bunch of hitboxes that hit through melee attacks if they overlap with a hurtbox. Like ylink's bombs, if you're spacing right and not doing too much damage to the bombs, then you can still override them, but you can't just beef your way through, either.
Yoshi's Egg Throw should work like ylink's bombs, where there's a hitbox for the egg itself, then the broken shell has a bunch of hitboxes that hit through melee attacks if they overlap with a hurtbox. Like ylink's bombs, if you're spacing right and not doing too much damage to the bombs, then you can still override them, but you can't just beef your way through, either.
This would be cool except for how often he actually can hurl those eggs. The eggs are honestly great as is as long as they get melee trajectory back.
SpiderMad
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 6, 2012
- Messages
- 4,968
They made the invincibility 1 frame less than Melee. As much as people still think there's a problem, I don't.
Invincibility isn't really the problem. It's the ability to do it indefinitely with no reduction in its reward. Actually, removing invincibility reduces the efficacy of techniques that would be legitimate if there was more incentive to do them early, rather than whenever.
I haven't tested it out in 2.6, but did they make the window to shorten Wolf's side-b larger yet? I think that would help Wolf a lot.
Since Fly is in the PMBR (and is arguably the one who has the most knowledge of desynching techniques in professional play), I trust that he would make better decisions as to what the character needs than any of us, especially the ones that are speculating with no real knowledge of the character itself.
I don't think you really understand how the IC's function. Down-b isn't the primary desynch method, thats usually the move people use after they desynch. And Nana being able to attack isn't the problem. If anything, that's part of the center as to why they need to be together. The problem with Nana's AI is that she's too easy to kill. The best way to fix this would be to just simply improve her AI (ex. make her a level 9 CPU so she powershields a lot and improves her recovery intelligence and etc.)
Since Fly is in the PMBR (and is arguably the one who has the most knowledge of desynching techniques in professional play), I trust that he would make better decisions as to what the character needs than any of us, especially the ones that are speculating with no real knowledge of the character itself.
This is actually a really good idea.
| Kailex |
I smell like salty coins and milk
I still suck at canceling those side-b's...
himemiya
Smash Lord
KIRBY
Make kirby's b-throw to combo into a bair/nair (basically more free throws) And keep the brawl fair to uair chain till 30%.
Make kirby's b-throw to combo into a bair/nair (basically more free throws) And keep the brawl fair to uair chain till 30%.
Ringbearer
Smash Rookie
Thoughts on the ICs (all using Melee ICs as point of reference).
The airgame for ICs is pretty limited. Dair is almost useless, but could be great for combos if it had more hitstun and less lag. As it is, even an L-cancelled dair doesn't stun the opponent long enough to set up for attacks. The fair's sweet-spot for sending the opponents downward should be enlargened. Especially if the attack was just slightly faster, this could allow for tech chases and meteor smashes as an integral part of IC strategy. U-air and bair are both pretty awesome as is.
Most of the ICs tilts are decent enough, with the exception of utilt, which would likely be better if it doled out more damage, sucked opponents into the attack instead of gently pushing them out of it, and/or had more hit stun.
Down B and neutral B are good as they are, in my opinion, but side B is often useless. More knockback would be convenient. As it is, using side B is just an invitation to be punished or a desperate attempt to recover.
Relatedly: ICs recovery def needs buffed. Considering the recovery options many other PM characters have, it seems reasonable that side B lifts the ICs up higher than in Melee and that attacks can be used after using it in the air. Being able to use it to recover horizontally and then use B-up to recover vertically would aid the ICs supremely.
In my opinion, their Up B should be almost completely reworked. It separates Popo and Nana for too long, it can't be used if Nana is in tumble or is attacking, and it just about always leaves one IC completely defenseless for a painfully long window of time. Also, the attack's usefulness dies with Nana. Instead, it would likely be beneficial if the Up B more resembled Charizard's, bringing the IC(s) straight up, dishing out damage to people attacking from above. A quicker, more controlled Up B that actually can assist Popo on his own makes the ICs recovery much less of a horrible experience.
I personally think that gameplay/attitude towards the ICs would be improved if wobbling and similar tactics were impossible, such as if ICs were only able to hold onto other characters for a set amount of time, likely proportional to the percentage the opponent us.
And lastly, here an ideas that I think would improve the ICs gameplay and capitalize on their unique style:
One of the problems with the ICs (in my mind) is that when there are two of them, they can be frightfully OP, but if there is just one, it's oftentimes rather easy to bat him off the stage past all hope of recovery. I think any balanced version of the ICs needs to decrease their brute strength a bit when there's two of them and increase their strength when there's only one. This could be done by increasing the power of Popo's attacks while decreasing Nana's. Instead of losing half the damage to each attack when Nana dies, it would be more reasonable if he was losing only about 20% or so. Instead of Nana's attacks being designed to multiply damage, her moves could be significantly weaker, their true power coming from an increased hitstun on all her relatively weak moves. If her attacks still do a little damage, and have low hitback and decent hit stun, then 1) there will be advantages to connecting any attack with both ICs at the same time, but 2) there will be many more options for combos that involve desyncing. If Nana's attacks tend to keep the opponent within range of the ICs, their play style would start to have a much heavier emphasis on creative desynched combos instead of just trying desperately to get the grab.
(And depending on whether the character needs to be overall buffed or nerfed for purposes of balance, Nana's damage counter could either match Popo's or be separate. I personally think that Nana's matching Popo's would be preferable (for the ICs, at least), as it would tend to keep her closer to Popo, but would still leave her vulnerable to being swatted off the stage and/or edgeguarded.)
The main potential problem I see with this would be that if Popo lands a smash that should kill the opponent--or at least send them very far offstage--and Nana's attack connects a few frames after Popo's, it is possible that a low knockback/high hitstun would effectively catch the opponent and save them from hurtling across the stage. Nana's moves would likely need to be rendered unable to do this somehow.
While the ICs probably have the most unique play style of any character, they have a lot of imbalances and difficulties that can make them difficult to play without having severe advantages or disadvantages with other players. And the programming challenges are even worse than the concept challenges, I'm sure.
As PM is basically a charity to the Smash community, obviously those of us using it don't really have a say in what does and doesn't go into it, so really it's pretty damn awesome that there is a "Character Idea Submission Thread" at all. My apologies if the post is overlong or just has an undue level of self-importance about it; I just had a lot of ideas for this often controversial character, and figured maybe one or two of them could actually be helpful.
Good stuff, PMBR. Keep up the solid work. : )
The airgame for ICs is pretty limited. Dair is almost useless, but could be great for combos if it had more hitstun and less lag. As it is, even an L-cancelled dair doesn't stun the opponent long enough to set up for attacks. The fair's sweet-spot for sending the opponents downward should be enlargened. Especially if the attack was just slightly faster, this could allow for tech chases and meteor smashes as an integral part of IC strategy. U-air and bair are both pretty awesome as is.
Most of the ICs tilts are decent enough, with the exception of utilt, which would likely be better if it doled out more damage, sucked opponents into the attack instead of gently pushing them out of it, and/or had more hit stun.
Down B and neutral B are good as they are, in my opinion, but side B is often useless. More knockback would be convenient. As it is, using side B is just an invitation to be punished or a desperate attempt to recover.
Relatedly: ICs recovery def needs buffed. Considering the recovery options many other PM characters have, it seems reasonable that side B lifts the ICs up higher than in Melee and that attacks can be used after using it in the air. Being able to use it to recover horizontally and then use B-up to recover vertically would aid the ICs supremely.
In my opinion, their Up B should be almost completely reworked. It separates Popo and Nana for too long, it can't be used if Nana is in tumble or is attacking, and it just about always leaves one IC completely defenseless for a painfully long window of time. Also, the attack's usefulness dies with Nana. Instead, it would likely be beneficial if the Up B more resembled Charizard's, bringing the IC(s) straight up, dishing out damage to people attacking from above. A quicker, more controlled Up B that actually can assist Popo on his own makes the ICs recovery much less of a horrible experience.
I personally think that gameplay/attitude towards the ICs would be improved if wobbling and similar tactics were impossible, such as if ICs were only able to hold onto other characters for a set amount of time, likely proportional to the percentage the opponent us.
And lastly, here an ideas that I think would improve the ICs gameplay and capitalize on their unique style:
One of the problems with the ICs (in my mind) is that when there are two of them, they can be frightfully OP, but if there is just one, it's oftentimes rather easy to bat him off the stage past all hope of recovery. I think any balanced version of the ICs needs to decrease their brute strength a bit when there's two of them and increase their strength when there's only one. This could be done by increasing the power of Popo's attacks while decreasing Nana's. Instead of losing half the damage to each attack when Nana dies, it would be more reasonable if he was losing only about 20% or so. Instead of Nana's attacks being designed to multiply damage, her moves could be significantly weaker, their true power coming from an increased hitstun on all her relatively weak moves. If her attacks still do a little damage, and have low hitback and decent hit stun, then 1) there will be advantages to connecting any attack with both ICs at the same time, but 2) there will be many more options for combos that involve desyncing. If Nana's attacks tend to keep the opponent within range of the ICs, their play style would start to have a much heavier emphasis on creative desynched combos instead of just trying desperately to get the grab.
(And depending on whether the character needs to be overall buffed or nerfed for purposes of balance, Nana's damage counter could either match Popo's or be separate. I personally think that Nana's matching Popo's would be preferable (for the ICs, at least), as it would tend to keep her closer to Popo, but would still leave her vulnerable to being swatted off the stage and/or edgeguarded.)
The main potential problem I see with this would be that if Popo lands a smash that should kill the opponent--or at least send them very far offstage--and Nana's attack connects a few frames after Popo's, it is possible that a low knockback/high hitstun would effectively catch the opponent and save them from hurtling across the stage. Nana's moves would likely need to be rendered unable to do this somehow.
While the ICs probably have the most unique play style of any character, they have a lot of imbalances and difficulties that can make them difficult to play without having severe advantages or disadvantages with other players. And the programming challenges are even worse than the concept challenges, I'm sure.
As PM is basically a charity to the Smash community, obviously those of us using it don't really have a say in what does and doesn't go into it, so really it's pretty damn awesome that there is a "Character Idea Submission Thread" at all. My apologies if the post is overlong or just has an undue level of self-importance about it; I just had a lot of ideas for this often controversial character, and figured maybe one or two of them could actually be helpful.
Good stuff, PMBR. Keep up the solid work. : )