Character Exploration Thread - Day 79: Axel Stone (Streets of Rage)

[chocolatejr9]

I'm thinking about the debate that might spring up if Digimon made it in. I agree that "virtual pet devices" are just close enough to video games that you can argue Digimon counts as "game first" (plus the fact that the first proper video game came out a couple months before the first anime, as far as I can tell), but I expect many non-Digimon fans who aren't aware of this history and/or consider the anime to be the "most important" part of the franchise would get riled up at Agumon's addition. How prominent do you think these debates would be?

I have a feeling Sakurai will have to educate people again...

 

[Twilord]

I have a feeling Sakurai will have to educate people again...

I feel like he'd enjoy that.

I know I'd get a kick out of it.

 

[Commander_Alph]

I'm thinking about the debate that might spring up if Digimon made it in. I agree that "virtual pet devices" are just close enough to video games that you can argue Digimon counts as "game first" (plus the fact that the first proper video game came out a couple months before the first anime, as far as I can tell), but I expect many non-Digimon fans who aren't aware of this history and/or consider the anime to be the "most important" part of the franchise would get riled up at Agumon's addition. How prominent do you think these debates would be?

I know that this is a good question but I feel like the video games is sandwich between the anime and the vpets as they haven't been a big hit for the series, being under the radar other than the PlayStation 1&2 games and went silent up until probably Cyber Sleuth but is long enough to be considered a legacy. It's basically the same thing with Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh but with Pokemon all the 3 layer (game, anime and TCG) is on par same goes with Yu-Gi-Oh but it only has 2 layer (TCG and anime) if I simplified it. I agree that the LCD games is basically the same as Game & Watch but marketed as a toy like how G&M is supposed to be an alarm clock that a businessmen could play during long train ride, heck this is not really the first time where Nintendo disguise their product as something else, being a "family computer" and "entertainment system" is how they sell the Famicom and NES but it's more apparent now that it's a console.

 

[Twilord]

I know that this is a good question but I feel like the video games is sandwich between the anime and the vpets as they haven't been a big hit for the series but is long enough to be considered a legacy, it's basically the same thing with Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh but with Pokemon all the 3 layer (game, anime and TCG) is on par same goes with Yu-Gi-Oh but it only has 2 layer (TCG and anime) if I simplified it. I agree that the LCD games is basically the same as Game & Watch but marketed as a toy like how G&M is supposed to be an alarm clock that a businessmen could play during long train ride, heck this is not really the first time where Nintendo disguise their product as something else, being a "family computer" and "entertainment system" is how they sell the Famicom and NES but it's more apparent now that it's a console.

Miyamoto (so Nintendo) and the director of Digimon Survive (so Bandai) have refered to the V-Pets as video games.

If you try to classify them as something else then you'll soon be classifying arcade games as something else and we lose Mario.

 

[Lionfranky]

Just like how Sakurai educated people on Fatal Fury... and how it's not a rip off of Street Fighter... he will definitely remind people that V-pet is another genre of video game. Didn't Sakurai start his career with V-pet rip off?

 

[Twilord]

Just like how Sakurai educated people on Fatal Fury... and how it's not a rip off of Street Fighter... he will definitely remind people that V-pet is another genre of video game. Didn't Sakurai start his career with V-pet rip off?

I'm not sure what you're referring to? I know one of his earliest projects was Kirby but maybe he did before that?




Much more recently, only like fifteen years ago, he did apparently make his own V-Pet.

https://twitter.com/DigimonShare/status/1049122943236820992

It seems it WAS his first non-Nintendo game.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I'm thinking about the debate that might spring up if Digimon made it in. I agree that "virtual pet devices" are just close enough to video games that you can argue Digimon counts as "game first" (plus the fact that the first proper video game came out a couple months before the first anime, as far as I can tell), but I expect many non-Digimon fans who aren't aware of this history and/or consider the anime to be the "most important" part of the franchise would get riled up at Agumon's addition. How prominent do you think these debates would be?

Not prominent enough that it can't be resolved by a sentence or two, not to mention this reminds me of how people on Miiverse thought anime was fair game because of all the Pokemon

 

[Twilord]

Not prominent enough that it can't be resolved by a sentence or two, not to mention this reminds me of how people on Miiverse thought anime was fair game because of all the Pokemon

Opens old notepad files

Opens 'Find and Replace' tool

Sets it find "Pokémon" and replace with "Pokémon and Digimon"

Sets it to find "RPG" and replace with "RPG and V-Pet respectively"

 

[SharkLord]

There's been some decent activity today, so let's give Agumon the first extension. Alright, carry on.

 

[Technomage]

Okay, I haven't come up with much this time, but what would Agumon's voice and dialogue be like?

 

[chocolatejr9]

If Digimon came to Smash, could they also add Tamagachi content due to their connections?

 

[Technomage]

If Digimon came to Smash, could they also add Tamagachi content due to their connections?

Maybe a few spirits and/or songs? Maybe a Tamagachi spirit event could be done sometime after Agumon's reveal/release?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Okay, I haven't come up with much this time, but what would Agumon's voice and dialogue be like?

Don't know about dialogue but Cyber Sleuth got the anime VAs back for Agumon and Gabumon iirc

 

[Technomage]

Don't know about dialogue but Cyber Sleuth got the anime VAs back for Agumon and Gabumon iirc

Yeah, I'd prefer if Agumon were to call out the name of some of his attacks if he gets dialogue.

 

[Eldrake]

Okay, I haven't come up with much this time, but what would Agumon's voice and dialogue be like?

I assume a childish voice with mostly grunts and dinosaur sounds for dialogue, but calls out the names of the special moves.
Same thing if Agumon got a Digivolution form, regardless of whether it's Greymon, WarGreymon or something else. Localization team would probably go with a deep adult voice though.

 

[Twilord]

Maybe a few spirits and/or songs? Maybe a Tamagachi spirit event could be done sometime after Agumon's reveal/release?

There is always the Digimon that is also a Tamagotchi...

 

[chocolatejr9]

Maybe a few spirits and/or songs? Maybe a Tamagachi spirit event could be done sometime after Agumon's reveal/release?

I was asking because apparently Nanimon is actually a Tamagotchi character who somehow ended up in the Digimon world.

 

[Twilord]

I was asking because apparently Nanimon is actually a Tamagotchi character who somehow ended up in the Digimon world.

Haha, cursed minds think alike; I actually pointed that out in the post just above yours.

I definitely feel like Digimon would lead to a Spirit Event with Digimon, Tamagotchi, Nintendogs, Chao, Sakurai's own Mushiking, and maybe even V-Pet that Bandai made based off Eevee.

I could picture Pulsemon as one of the Digimon in the event, but also Numamon. Maybe Nanimon too with Tamagotchi having its counterpart as one of theirs...

EDIT: Fixed some wording.

 

[Eldrake]

If Agumon came with a Digivolution gimmick and a bar to fill up, I think it'd be interesting if Agumon getting damaged actually drained it. It's not good petcare to let your v-pet get harmed.

 

[amageish]

If Digimon came to Smash, could they also add Tamagachi content due to their connections?

I doubt they'd add in it directly, but it'd be cool to have a Costume and a Spirit Event afterwards, Cuphead-style.

I definitely feel like Digimon would lead to a Spirit Event with Digimon, Tamagotchi, Nintendogs, Chao, Sakurai's own Mushiking, and maybe even V-Pet that Bandai made based off Eevee.

I don't know if they'd do all of that, but Nintendogs is an interesting connection I hadn't made. They could use the Nintendogs stage for some Digimon spirit battles... Also, I think people are sleeping on a new Nintendogs as a possible reveal soon, but that's neither here nor there...

 

[Twilord]

If Agumon came with a Digivolution gimmick and a bar to fill up, I think it'd be interesting if Agumon getting damaged actually drained it. It's not good petcare to let your v-pet get harmed.

I actually love this kind of idea; though I take it one step further. Just being Greymon drains the gauge, and if you don't spend time as Agumon voluntarily to refill it you'll exhaust the poor dear and revert to Koromon. (Because obviously we can't force your Digimon back to an egg during the match... although Yoshi does mean that mechanic exists.)


My idea for balance is giving them a Monado Arts like set of evolutions. Greymon, GeoGreymon, Growlmon, and Tyrannomon would all be reskins of each other, but with different stats and different breath weapons. Coredramon would be almost the same BUT with wings that would have to be animated, because it is the form that grants a multijump

I don't know if they'd do all of that, but Nintendogs is an interesting connection I hadn't made. They could use the Nintendogs stage for some Digimon spirit battles...

Right, my apologies, I was moreso trying to give an idea of the rich level of material there.


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UNRELATED, ADDED VIA EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POSTING



I have a silly idea for Classic Mode for Agumon that I really like; but I need help from you guys to complete the idea!

You and your opponent's are in stamina mode with health constantly decreasing; but food keeps spawning on the stage. It's a competition to be feed. Your opponent's represent other V-Pet games.

Some of the characters will represent their own series because they have V-Pet spin-offs. These include Pokémon, Pac-Man, and Sonic.

1. Pokémon will be Pikachu with a respawning Pokéball Eevee.
2. Sonic would have three mini versions. One would be regular, metal, and one would have bunny ears and a Tanuki Tail. These are all references to different Chao appearances.
3. Duck Hunt Dog would have to be there too, as the Nintendog.
4. ???
5. ???
6. BONUS STAGE
7. After that he fights a hoard of himself in a normal match. This time on his home stage.
8. After this he goes up against that dragon from Monster Hunter, but with all the other V-Pets fighting with him. Unfortunately they are all programmed to die pretty quickly, leaving Agumon to fight on.

Ideally the title for this campaign would be: "Agumon, Digital Monster. Agumon is The Champion."

 

[Technomage]

UNRELATED, ADDED VIA EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POSTING



I have a silly idea for Classic Mode for Agumon that I really like; but I need help from you guys to complete the idea!

You and your opponent's are in stamina mode with health constantly decreasing; but food keeps spawning on the stage. It's a competition to be feed. Your opponent's represent other V-Pet games.

Some of the characters will represent their own series because they have V-Pet spin-offs. These include Pokémon, Pac-Man, and Sonic.

1. Pokémon will be Pikachu with a respawning Pokéball Eevee.
2. Sonic would have three mini versions. One would be regular, metal, and one would have bunny ears and a Tanuki Tail. These are all references to different Chao appearances.
3. Duck Hunt Dog would have to be there too, as the Nintendog.
4. ???
5. ???
6. BONUS STAGE
7. After that he fights a hoard of himself in a normal match. This time on his home stage.
8. After this he goes up against that dragon from Monster Hunter, but with all the other V-Pets fighting with him. Unfortunately they are all programmed to die pretty quickly, leaving Agumon to fight on.

Ideally the title for this campaign would be: "Agumon, Digital Monster. Agumon is The Champion."

Interesting; maybe spots 4 and 5 could have opponents that reference other Digimon? Maybe one of those spots could have 4 opponents, one representing Aiba and the other three referencing his/her Digimon?

 

[SharkLord]

Alright, question time: Do you think the DigiDestined from the shows would get any references? We've gotten content from animes with Ash-Greninja and movies with all of Seph's Advent Children stuff, so I think it'd be fair game.

 

[Technomage]

Alright, question time: Do you think the DigiDestined from the shows would get any references? We've gotten content from animes with Ash-Greninja and movies with all of Seph's Advent Children stuff, so I think it'd be fair game.

Maybe Agumon's alts could consist of clothing/accessories worn by DigiDestined people?

 

[Twilord]

I am clueless when it comes to Digimon, so I won't be of much use in this conversation. I imagine all you Digimon fans will hate me for asking this, but what separates Digimon from Pokemon? I'm not accusing the former of being of a ripoff by any means, I'm just asking.

I don't think I actually replied to this; so I might just offer you a quick insight. - In short, it didn't actually started a monster-collection franchise, its based in V-Pets but its expanded into the nearby territory; partially because Pokémon kinda started to blur the line way back in Pokémon Yellow. It actually took until the DS for Digimon to create a monster-collection pillar though.

In Pokémon lore the bond between Pikachu and Ash is something special; in Digimon lore if you're not at least that close with your Digimon something is wrong and its probably meaningful personal trauma they will help you deal with until your bond can help them evolve even further. Additionally in Pokémon neglect is something bad people do; in Digimon its something you can do through screw-ups and you will get penalised for.

Digivolution is also a lot wilder than Pokémon evolution. It branches out; in the more RPG aimed games its a matter of team-building decision. In the V-Pet RPG hybrid games there is an element of that but it also reflects how well your raised them. In the pure V-Pets its a reflection of how good a job you're doing.

Interesting; maybe spots 4 and 5 could have opponents that reference other Digimon? Maybe one of those spots could have 4 opponents, one representing Aiba and the other three referencing his/her Digimon?

I feel like one of them should reference Mametchi; but I've not idea who would be well suited for that. Pulsemon would definitely be a good one to rep though, since they're the mascot of the new Vitality Bracelet line. - Althought they could potentially go for Mushiking rep, since that is V-Pet that Masahiro Sakurai himself has connections to.

Alright, question time: Do you think the DigiDestined from the shows would get any references? We've gotten content from animes with Ash-Greninja and movies with all of Seph's Advent Children stuff, so I think it'd be fair game.

Technomage's idea for clothes based on the anime characters might be neat. Tai's goggles on Agumon seem like a really fun reference. Everyone love it when Mon-Genre characters wear goggles in Smash Bros. - We could then have Koromon and Pichu posing beside each other with goggles!

It would also be GREAT from the perspective of keeping it obvious who is who. Wether it goes for a Cyber-Sleuth or Rumble-Arena inspired approach to Digivolution, the fact Agumon would have multiple forms probably means a bit of external fashion would be useful for ditto fights.

 

[Pillow]

I've been preoccupied and sadly it seems I missed the height of the Digimon discussion. I don't think I have much to add at this point, so I'll just toss my noms here.


Noms:
x5 Innkeeper

 

[Twilord]

I've been preoccupied and sadly it seems I missed the height of the Digimon discussion. I don't think I have much to add at this point, so I'll just toss my noms here.


Noms:
x5 Innkeeper

Here is a question for you; what aspects of the three main pillar Digimon game-series do you think most need to be represented? And how do you connect them into one cohesive bundle?

(Those pillars being the actual V-Pets like the Vitality Bracelet, the V-Pet/RPG hybrids like Next Order, and the more traditional-RPG style games like Cyber Slueth)

 

[Commander_Alph]

Oh yeah, speaking of noms.. all goes to Endo Mamoru

 

[Twilord]

A really important question just dawned on me - should Agumon have a Tamer with him?

Maybe in the background, with different options like Mameo and Aiba? If so from what games?


(I also have a weird idea for a Digimon Tamer character who would actually be a bit more like Rosalina and Luma. I would suggest Aiba for that so you could have some glitch powers. I feel like it would be very funny and accurate of a contrast with Pokémon Trainer; much like how in their TCGs Trainers win prizes but Tamers lose security and get mauled.)

 

[Pillow]

Here is a question for you; what aspects of the three main pillar Digimon game-series do you think most need to be represented? And how do you connect them into one cohesive bundle?

(Those pillars being the actual V-Pets like the Vitality Bracelet, the V-Pet/RPG hybrids like Next Order, and the more traditional-RPG style games like Cyber Slueth)

I think it's wrong to think about what "needs to be most represented" at least for the playable character part of DLC. Agumon's moveset should reflect what the character is actually capable of in as fun a kit as possible, without having to sacrifice anything to "represent" aspects of the game. The one caveat, and it's been talked about at length here already, but there should absolutely be some sort of Digivolve mechanic. "Representation" is best done through Spirits, music, and stages.

As for how it's handled, while it would be nice to see all of Agumon's forms, I think for simplicity's sake he could just come with a 2 stage evolution for Greymon and Wargreymon, with some sort of meter that would let him transform once, then twice, then back to his weak original form. Ideally he'd spend 40% of his time as Agumon, 40% of his time as Greymon, and 20% as Wargreymon.

 

[PeridotGX]

Who could a Digimon Assist be? Would it be an AT, or a rare pokeball?

Maxwell x10

 

[Technomage]

Who could a Digimon Assist be? Would it be an AT, or a rare pokeball?

Maxwell x10

I already mentioned a Digivice. As for a list of Digimon (and other digital entities) summoned by it, I made a list a long time ago, but I don't know if I'll be able to dig it back up from another thread. Still here's a few non-Digimon ideas I had:

Eater
Arata Sanada (Eater)
Takumi/Ami Aiba
Kyoko Kuremi/Alphamon

 

[Twilord]

[/SPOILER]

I think it's wrong to think about what "needs to be most represented" at least for the playable character part of DLC. Agumon's moveset should reflect what the character is actually capable of in as fun a kit as possible, without having to sacrifice anything to "represent" aspects of the game. The one caveat, and it's been talked about at length here already, but there should absolutely be some sort of Digivolve mechanic. "Representation" is best done through Spirits, music, and stages.

As for how it's handled, while it would be nice to see all of Agumon's forms, I think for simplicity's sake he could just come with a 2 stage evolution for Greymon and Wargreymon, with some sort of meter that would let him transform once, then twice, then back to his weak original form. Ideally he'd spend 40% of his time as Agumon, 40% of his time as Greymon, and 20% as Wargreymon.

I actually meant Spirits, Costumes, and Classic Campaign.


Will admit, personally I'm biased towards Agumon, Greymon, and Koromon as the three stages with or without my idea to have Agumon use Digivolution like it's Monado Arts. Those three just seems like it would help set them apart from being just "Lucario meets Joker". Sakurai seems to like to be more out there, especially with third parties.

I guess I just kinda can't imagine Sakurai invoking Rumble Arena too much.

Who could a Digimon Assist be? Would it be an AT, or a rare pokeball?

That is very hard... I sorta like the idea of Nokia cheering you on, holding up her Digivice dramatically, you getting some random buffing effect, and her being visible shocked before pretending she meant to do that.


Alternatively they did just finally add Calumon to the Digimon Field Guide, could be an AT that randomly grants you your Final Smash.


-----

Dumb idea but one that does suit the series. Should Agumon have a random chance to drop "waste data" when launched?

 

[Pillow]

[/SPOILER]

I actually meant Spirits, Costumes, and Classic Campaign.


Will admit, personally I'm biased towards Agumon, Greymon, and Koromon as the three stages with or without my idea to have Agumon use Digivolution like it's Monado Arts. Those three just seems like it would help set them apart from being just "Lucario meets Joker". Sakurai seems to like to be more out there, especially with third parties.

I guess I just kinda can't imagine Sakurai invoking Rumble Arena too much.




That is very hard... I sorta like the idea of Nokia cheering you on, holding up her Digivice dramatically, you getting some random buffing effect, and her being visible shocked before pretending she meant to do that.


Alternatively they did just finally add Calumon to the Digimon Field Guide, could be an AT that randomly grants you your Final Smash. ]

Oh uhhh, then honestly I'm not sure. My experience with Digimon is largely limited to the first 2 anime seasons that I watched when I was a kid.

I'm against the idea of using the forms like Mondo arts because the higher stages of Digievolution are supposed to be stronger than younger forms. A Monado arts gimmick simply doesn't give the same epic feel as getting Arsene or charged Limit. I know Pokemon trainer exists, but Pokemon actually is less focused on the evolution thing. Beyond that, Sakurai does like making unique character gimmicks, but in this case being a 2 stage evolution would be enough to set himself apart. Sakurai still prioritizes staying true to source material, and making characters feel accessible over bringing a weird gimmick.

 

[Twilord]

Oh uhhh, then honestly I'm not sure. My experience with Digimon is largely limited to the first 2 anime seasons that I watched when I was a kid.

I'm against the idea of using the forms like Mondo arts because the higher stages of Digievolution are supposed to be stronger than younger forms. A Monado arts gimmick simply doesn't give the same epic feel as getting Arsene or charged Limit. I know Pokemon trainer exists, but Pokemon actually is less focused on the evolution thing. Beyond that, Sakurai does like making unique character gimmicks, but in this case being a 2 stage evolution would be enough to set himself apart. Sakurai still prioritizes staying true to source material, and making characters feel accessible over bringing a weird gimmick.

I use Monado Arts as a reference point because it's a simple way to say "stat alterations without totally new movepools". They would all be a power boost from Agumon but with different emphasis, and probably all have some cool super power like multi-jump or a lot of super armour despite otherwise being quite similar. They would also all have different Breath Weapons, and while all their moves would be identical to each other they would all be slightly different to Agumon's because he doesn't be have a long tail.

Think of them more as Veemon having the choice between Flamedramon, Raidramon, and Exveemon. (Except for all of this particular Agumon's Champions being similar enough to Greymon that it wouldn't kill the Smash Devs.)


OH, and I should specify two things. Agumon would be semi-decent without these power boosts... but only because you pay a very hefty price for pushing them too hard to stay evolved without rest. If you fail to look after your V-Pet they revert to Koromon and they are barely even a character until they recharge enough to become Agumon; an issue complicated by the increased size of a champion making you potential combo bait if you're not smart.


NOT saying Sakurai would use both or even either of those idea. Just that it's the track I think on and might end up modding into an older Smash game...

 

[SharkLord]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what stage would Agumon bring? I'm not sure if there's a really prominent place in Digimon, besides maybe just the digital world in general.

 

[Paraster]

I've seen a few people suggest evolution for Agumon's Final Smash, but would there be any options if Sakurai really wanted to not make it a transformation FS for whatever reason?

(Also, forgot my noms: Cadence x5)

 

[Commander_Alph]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what stage would Agumon bring? I'm not sure if there's a really prominent place in Digimon, besides maybe just the digital world in general.

I am 4 parallel universe ahead of you (or in this case 1 page ahead of you)​

There's multiple option like the original virtual pets kinda like Flat Zone to represent that authentic feel, the generic grass area and File City, Cyberspace EDEN from Cyber Sleuth to get that computer-y feeling that has been associated with the series, or all of them! Yes, all of them combined is possible by basing it off of the new Vital Bracelet that is recently released this year, to be more specific it is based on the DIGIMON PROJECT 2021 video posted on the official Bandai YouTube channel specifically episode 2.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I've seen a few people suggest evolution for Agumon's Final Smash, but would there be any options if Sakurai really wanted to not make it a transformation FS for whatever reason?

(Also, forgot my noms: Cadence x5)

You could always just have it be a cutscene FS of Agumon warp digivolving into WarGreymon and have him throw his iconic Terra Force, or maybe Omnimon doing something if you want WarGreymon to be part of Agumon's regular transformation gimmick. That's how I've been imagining his FS at least, since transformation FS aren't a thing in Ultimate anymore, and pretty much every DLC character have had a cutscene FS.

 

[TheThingamajigRayman]

Not sure if this has been asked before, but what stage would Agumon bring? I'm not sure if there's a really prominent place in Digimon, besides maybe just the digital world in general.

Hmm, I'm not sure. If Agumon is more represented by virtual pets, maybe he could bring a Virtual pet-style stage, maybe even resembling the OG Digivice. That could be neat. (Similarly to Game & Watch with Flat Zone being a Game & Watch device.)

However, I'm not too sure what else it could be. Maybe just simply the Digital World, as you previously stated.