Character Discussion Thread

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Does anybody else think Ice Climber or Ice Climbers is happening in Smash 4 still?

Some people have given up hope on the Ice Climbers, simply because they believe that the 3DS can't handle them at all.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Some people have given up hope on the Ice Climbers, simply because they believe that the 3DS can't handle them at all.

I personally think that Sakurai found a way to get Ice Climbers to work.

 

[Deleted member]

Having to develop nearly 50 characters, bug testing and balancing included, does take up a large amount of time. That's not even dwelling into the varies bells and whistles like the items, trophies, and stages. Everything has to be made from scratch too, meaning the developers can't simply port stuff over. On top of that, there are two versions of this game that have vastly different hardware.

That crap adds up fast.

Not to mention, it was flat stated that making Mewtwo took roughly 800 hours. Imagine that but with a 50-ish character roster.

This, but it's worth noting that Sakurai considers the Mii Fighters to be three separate character, so we're actually at fifty-one characters.

As much as I want Mewtwo to return, if there's a reason why Mewtwo isn't on the initial roster, it's because of how difficult it is to revamp him. It's for this reason why I am starting to doubt Mewtwo being even DLC.

People aren't going to like hearing this, but SSB 3DS & Wii U being on two different systems has had a larger impact on the character roster than we would all like to admit. In fact, this added difficulties on adding characters was flat out stated by Sakurai himself shortly after E3.

Notice the fact the Pokémon Trainer, Mewtwo, Ridley, Ice Climbers, and Chorus Men are absence from this game. They share one major issue for this game; that they are very difficult character to develop. I honestly think they were all seriously considered at some point but were dropped because of technical problems. So the issue isn't that Sakurai sees them as "unworthy" of a spot, but as you said, may not seem them as worth the time to make or giving up a certain amount of newcomers to make them work. Hopefully next time technical problem will pose less of an issue.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I personally think that Sakurai found a way to get Ice Climbers to work.

I hope that you're right, because he did make Rosalina and Olimar work on the 3DS. But I guess another issue that people are worried about is that the game will seriously lag if there are four Ice Climbers, and you add the stage hazards, the Poke Ball Pokemon, and the Assist Trophies into the mix.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I hope that you're right, because he did make Rosalina and Olimar work on the 3DS. But I guess another issue that people are worried about is that the game will seriously lag if there are four Ice Climbers, and you add the stage hazards, the Poke Ball Pokemon, and the Assist Trophies into the mix.

Yes. Those things would hinder the Ice Climbers in the game. Having to get them to work with all of that stuff would require heavy amounts of testing.

The main problem with the possibility of characters that a lot of speculators seem to be missing is one key factor:

Time.

Time is the only thing stopping any character from getting in the game, since each character has to be play tested, play tested with other characters, and tested for bugs.

Any character could work, but would require a hefty amount of time to be made viable.

Sadly, Sakurai works on a timed schedule and being the Director of the game means he has to deem who is worth the effort and who is not. Questions like:

• Can we get this character to work?
• Do we have enough time to get this character to work?
• How much time would it take for us to get this character to work and would that hinder our progress?

That is one reason I never want to be Sakurai in another life if given the opportunity, because a character I have always loved and wanted to be in the game cannot work and nothing I could do would change it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

This, but it's worth noting that Sakurai considers the Mii Fighters to be three separate character, so we're actually at fifty-one characters.

As much as I want Mewtwo to return, if there's a reason why Mewtwo isn't on the initial roster, it's because of how difficult it is to revamp him. It's for this reason why I am starting to doubt Mewtwo being even DLC.

People aren't going to like hearing this, but SSB 3DS & Wii U being on two different systems has had a larger impact on the character roster than we would all like to admit. In fact, this added difficulties on adding characters was flat out stated by Sakurai himself shortly after E3.

Notice the fact the Pokémon Trainer, Mewtwo, Ridley, Ice Climbers, and Chorus Men are absence from this game. They share one major issue for this game; that they are very difficult character to develop. I honestly think they were all seriously considered at some point but were dropped because of technical problems. So the issue isn't that Sakurai sees them as "unworthy" of a spot, but as you said, may not seem them as worth the time to make or giving up a certain amount of newcomers to make them work. Hopefully next time technical problem will pose less of an issue.

All of this could have been avoided if he wasn't so stubbornly insistent on his "both versions must have the same roster!" philosophy when it simply doesn't make sense. If the 3DS version cannot handle the Ice Climbers, simply just make them Wii U exclusives.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Yes. Those things would hinder the Ice Climbers in the game. Having to get them to work with all of that stuff would require heavy amounts of testing.

The main problem with the possibility of characters that a lot of speculators seem to be missing is one key factor:

Time.

Time is the only thing stopping any character from getting in the game, since each character has to be play tested, play tested with other characters, and tested for bugs.

Any character could work, but would require a hefty amount of time to be made viable.

Sadly, Sakurai works on a timed schedule and being the Director of the game means he has to deem who is worth the effort and who is not. Questions like:

• Can we get this character to work?
• Do we have enough time to get this character to work?
• How much time would it take for us to get this character to work and would that hinder our progress?

That is one reason I never want to be Sakurai in another life if given the opportunity, because a character I have always loved and wanted to be in the game cannot work and nothing I can do would change it.

It almost makes you think that Sakurai rushed the game development again.

 

[The Light Music Club]

They should have just made this game Wii U only and never thought of adding Miis.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

It almost makes you think that Sakurai rushed the game development again.

I would say he did, but to a certain extent. He probably took each character and had them spend a couple of testing through regular intervals, but ones that required an extra excessive amount of work were probably scrapped.

Edit: With all the problems that face characters to be playable. I fear the day when:

Sakurai reveals that certain characters in Smash prevented others from getting in the game, for example:

Takamaru's Final Smash used on Fox would always cause the game to crash, so they had to cut him from being playable.

I fear the day when Sakurai reveals anything along those lines to the public. Because, if you think Smash Boards is hectic as it is, just wait until there is solid evidence that one character prevented another from getting in the game.

 

[False Sense]

Notice the fact the Pokémon Trainer, Mewtwo, Ridley, Ice Climbers, and Chorus Men are absence from this game.

For the record, we don't know for sure whether or not we've seen the final roster, so we can't just assume that none of those characters made it in.

 

[Diddy Kong]

They should have just made this game Wii U only and never thought of adding Miis.

Someone's talking some truth here!

 

[lltacx]

This, but it's worth noting that Sakurai considers the Mii Fighters to be three separate character, so we're actually at fifty-one characters.

As much as I want Mewtwo to return, if there's a reason why Mewtwo isn't on the initial roster, it's because of how difficult it is to revamp him. It's for this reason why I am starting to doubt Mewtwo being even DLC.

People aren't going to like hearing this, but SSB 3DS & Wii U being on two different systems has had a larger impact on the character roster than we would all like to admit. In fact, this added difficulties on adding characters was flat out stated by Sakurai himself shortly after E3.

Notice the fact the Pokémon Trainer, Mewtwo, Ridley, Ice Climbers, and Chorus Men are absence from this game. They share one major issue for this game; that they are very difficult character to develop. I honestly think they were all seriously considered at some point but were dropped because of technical problems. So the issue isn't that Sakurai sees them as "unworthy" of a spot, but as you said, may not seem them as worth the time to make or giving up a certain amount of newcomers to make them work. Hopefully next time technical problem will pose less of an issue.

I'm no game developer but how is Mewtwo more difficult to make than any other character that's made from scratch?

 

[Oracle_Summon]

They should have just made this game Wii U only and never thought of adding Miis.

But I love being able to have Super Smash Brothers Portable. That is always something that I wanted ever since I was a child.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

They should have just made this game Wii U only and never thought of adding Miis.

Yes. Also, the idea of customizable special moves was a waste of development time, as was giving Miss three separate movesets as opposed to one.

But I love being able to have Super Smash Brothers Portable. That is always something that I wanted ever since I was a child.

Personally, speaking, Portable Smash never appealed to me. If Sakurai announced that he will never, ever ever do another Smash game on a portable console, I would happily bring out the "Celebrate Good Times" video.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I always liked the idea of having 64 or Melee ported or remade to serve as the 'Smash 3DS' actually.

 

[Donghae]

lmao ....

 

[Gre ninja'd]

I know this sounds crazy, but I think that groose has a chance, he hasn't been deconfirmed, and I know lots of people would love him to be the joke character. And maybe give him a Reyn alt and is main him, and when he's in battle and uses his up b all the loftwings in the backround of the Skyloft stage turn into Alfonzo. Make it happen mashed potato samurai

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Personally, speaking, Portable Smash never appealed to me. If Sakurai announced that he will never, ever ever do another Smash game on a portable console, I would happily bring out the "Celebrate Good Times" video.

To the extent that characters would never be cut because they could not work on both versions, then yes, I agree with you on this statement.

Though I do think we should wait until the Ice Climbers are Officially gone before deciding we should never have a portable Smash ever again.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I always liked the idea of having 64 or Melee ported or remade to serve as the 'Smash 3DS' actually.

Wouldn't the Ice Climbers still have technical difficulties in the 3DS version of Melee though?

 

[Rockaphin]

I actually love having Smash on the 3DS!

However, there's one huge mistake made in my opinion. That is the mistake of having the exact same roster on each version. By doing this, you are really hindering the ability of the Wii U. Also, we wouldn't see a two time veteran cut. . . Unless they wanted to cut the Ice Climbers for unknown reasons.

At the same time though, none of this is actually confirmed.

 

[Deleted member]

@ False Sense Technically you are right, we could see more. But I'm not really getting my hopes up at this point. There's almost definitely going to be DLC characters, but I am only specifically expecting Lucas and Wolf (although I do expect at least one newcomer to be DLC, I just don't know who).

All of this could have been avoided if he wasn't so stubbornly insistent on his "both versions must have the same roster!" philosophy when it simply doesn't make sense. If the 3DS version cannot handle the Ice Climbers, simply just make them Wii U exclusives.

Yeah, I'll have to agree with you here. I was giving an explanation as to why certain difficult to develop characters did not make it into this game with the 3DS being the reason why. Doesn't necessarily mean I though it was good judgment (if anything, I have mixed feelings towards this roster).

I remember back when I was just getting into speculation that I made a big stink about the roster being the same for both versions (although I incorrectly assumed the roster would be only around forty characters if it happened). While I was wrong on the reason why I was concerned, looking back in hindsight, I was right about universal roster this game being a bad idea because of technical issues. While I can understand why Ridley, Mewtwo, and Ice Climbers aren't playable, it still stings badly that none of them are in. However, all the backlash in the world is not going to change the roster, so all we can do is accept the roster as it is (along with potential DLC character) and try again next game.

The bright side is that Ridley, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers, and a Rhythm Heaven character could still be added into a future Smash game, providing technical problems kept the out this game (it probably won't be as bad next time since the successor to the 3DS should be more powerful). But this is another discussion for another day.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

Portable smash is everything I've ever wanted, having my favorite game series portable would be amazing, and it's coming soon. I don't understand why people are mad about a portable smash game, especially when it was supposed to be 3ds only

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Portable smash is everything I've ever wanted, having my favorite game series portable would be amazing, and it's coming soon. I don't understand why people are mad about a portable smash game, especially when it was supposed to be 3ds only

It is mainly how the 3DS could potentially cause some characters to be cut or not work for the game that gets people up and arms against the 3DS version.

 

[?????????????]

If the Ice Climbers are cut, my theory would be for balancing purposes, not technical difficulties.

If they're looking to balance broken characters like Meta Knight, they can take out the ability to glide and have infinite combos, which they have. How do you balance the Ice Climbers to prevent things like chain grabbing without eliminating their double character schtick?

 

[Rockaphin]

If the Ice Climbers are cut, my theory would be for balancing purposes, not technical difficulties.

If they're looking to balance broken characters like Meta Knight, they can take out the ability to glide and have infinite combos, which they have. How do you balance the Ice Climbers to prevent things like chain grabbing without eliminating their double character schtick?

Maybe giving them different throws or only the first character can grab would work.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

If the Ice Climbers are cut, my theory would be for balancing purposes, not technical difficulties.

If they're looking to balance broken characters like Meta Knight, they can take out the ability to glide and have infinite combos, which they have. How do you balance the Ice Climbers to prevent things like chain grabbing without eliminating their double character schtick?

You would have to severely nerf them.

 

[Gre ninja'd]

It is mainly how the 3DS could potentially cause some characters to be cut or not work for the game that gets people up and arms against the 3DS version.

Rip in peace ice climbers you will be missed (2001-2014)

 

[Oracle_Summon]

Rip in peace ice climbers you will be missed (2001-2014)

Hold on now. Sakurai did not officially say "Sorry we could not get the Ice Climbers to work so they are not in the game". He only said, "We are having some difficulties to get the Ice Climbers to run on the 3DS version".

And he has not given us an update on it since.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Do we even know if Ice Climbers are cut because of the 3DS and not because of general design and balance issues (they weren't exactly polished in both Melee and Brawl)?

The original article, translated, was simply paraphrasing what Sakurai said. We know he said that he said that that multiple character fighters are causing issues, but that could simply be referred to transforming characters which are now gone, but the author thought ICs are the only example of this so he added them in. It's strange for him to name a character isn't even confirmed or deconfirmed yet.

Here's the quote.

Sakurai did tell me that “multiple character” combatants like the Ice Climbers were proving a technical challenge on the 3DS.

Multiple character is in quotation. Why is that? Because that's the only thing that came straight from Sakurai's mouth according to that quote. It's possibly just bad journalism.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

@ False Sense Technically you are right, we could see more. But I'm not really getting my hopes up at this point. There's almost definitely going to be DLC characters, but I am only specifically expecting Lucas and Wolf (although I do expect at least one newcomer to be DLC, I just don't know who).

Actually, it's been leaked that we are getting three newcomer DLC characters and they are: Toon Zelda; Dr. Luigi; Brash the Bear (Fox clone. Not semi-clone, but just a plain old clone) and Metal Mario.

Spoiler

It would be really something if my joke ended up being true and we are actually getting those four for real.

 

[Jason the Yoshi]

Actually, it's been leaked that we are getting three newcomer DLC characters and they are: Toon Zelda; Dr. Luigi; Brash the Bear (Fox clone. Not semi-clone, but just a plain old clone) and Metal Mario.

Spoiler

It would be really something if my joke ended up being true and we are actually getting those four for real.

Metal Mario? FAKE! We have the Metal Box returning already.

 

[CJ Falcon]

Portable smash is everything I've ever wanted, having my favorite game series portable would be amazing, and it's coming soon. I don't understand why people are mad about a portable smash game, especially when it was supposed to be 3ds only

Smash Bros. 4 on 3DS only? Good God, Nintendo hates the Wii U.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Smash Bros. 4 on 3DS only? Good God, Nintendo hates the Wii U.

I think it was Iwata's idea.

 

[CoolEric258]

To be frank, I always believed this: if a character I like is cut, I'll just play the game he/she was in instead. It's fine for other characters to get the spotlight. But what do I know?

 

[Burruni]

I'm no game developer but how is Mewtwo more difficult to make than any other character that's made from scratch?

Frankly, I'll explain my stance on the matter.

1) Mewtwo would need the same work for making a moveset, model, etc that any other "Newcomer" would. At least with veterans from Brawl they have a very recent model and moveset that functioned well enough to have a strong base of.

2) They'd have to find a way to balance new and old moves for Mewtwo to try to make him work similar enough to Melee to still be the same fighter, but still change it enough to not make him horribly abysmal like he was in melee.

3) Sm4sh Mewtwo would also need to make sure not to be too similar to Lucario to help mitigate/nullify the rage Lucario had in Brawl, and still does to an extent, for Mewtwo being "lost."

4) Project M. Nintendo has been VERY cautious about this game and how it works. To truly utilize the ideas given by that fan hack would be to acknowledge it's existence and thus would need to shut down the entire thing including taking the makers, organizers of tournaments, and "accountable" players of the game for endorsing an illegal product. Why do you think that all the people in the Smash invitational are most known for Melee/Brawl tourneys? If they invited a P:M primary (or exclusive) player such as Boss, Coney, or Pink Fresh, this would also acknowledge the product. Sakurai and Nintendo have basically played dumb to it because they don't want to shut it down, it is something for the fans by the fans and doesn't directly interfere with their products.

Edit: TL;DR: Mewtwo would need the same base work as a Newcomer for the work to make a model, animations, etc, but would also need to balance a way to make him not Melee-terrible but still similar to Melee Mewtwo with as few similarities to Lucario and Project M's Mewtwo as much as possible.

 

[NickerBocker]

Do we even know if Ice Climbers are cut because of the 3DS and not because of general design and balance issues (they weren't exactly polished in both Melee and Brawl)?

The original article, translated, was simply paraphrasing what Sakurai said. We know he said that he said that that multiple character fighters are causing issues, but that could simply be referred to transforming characters which are now gone, but the author thought ICs are the only example of this so he added them in. It's strange for him to name a character isn't even confirmed or deconfirmed yet.

Here's the quote.

Multiple character is in quotation. Why is that? Because that's the only thing that came straight from Sakurai's mouth according to that quote. It's possibly just bad journalism.

Well to add to that, notice how we no longer have transformation characters or mechanics? Like ZSS and Samus being separate, no Ivysaur or Squirtle (as far as we know) and Zelda and Shiek being separated? I think those fall under multiple characters.

Maybe theyre having trouble with all tyoes of these characters due to them taking extra processing in game for them to appear or load when they are switched out.

On the flip side, this is pretty old news and could have easily been solved by now. Maybe that was something Sakurai was having trouble with at that instantaneous moment during the interview and mentioned it.

 

[Deleted member]

Portable smash is everything I've ever wanted, having my favorite game series portable would be amazing, and it's coming soon. I don't understand why people are mad about a portable smash game, especially when it was supposed to be 3ds only

I love the idea of a portable Smash as well. In fact, I intend to get Smash 3DS once the new 3DS comes to North America. I just don't feel as having an universal roster was a good idea for this game given that the RAM on the 3DS is IIRC, less than the Gamecube.

I'm no game developer but how is Mewtwo more difficult to make than any other character that's made from scratch?

The problem with Mewtwo is that revamping Mewtwo requires a ton of work. Mewtwo had a bad reputation with his game play in Melee and was considered among the worst character for this game. To revamp Mewtwo, it's going to lot considerably more development time than other characters on the roster.

Factoring in that we already have fifty-one characters (which is an impressive size), technical problems rearing their ugly heads by having an universal roster with both a 3DS and a Wii U version, and the Pokémon Company being stingy and these all probably contributed to Mewtwo's exclusion (assuming the leaked roster is final).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

For the record, we don't know for sure whether or not we've seen the final roster, so we can't just assume that none of those characters made it in.

100% this. Some parts of the recent leaks aren't entirely believable after all.

 

[Curious Villager]

Even if characters like Ice Climbers wouldn't return due to 3DS limitations. That wouldn't mean that I would still not want to see another portable Smash after Smash 3DS though. Especially since the hardware of the 3DS successor would most probably be more powerful and should hopefully be able to handle them next time. In fact, they are already kinda trying to upgrade the CPU with the "New Nintendo 3DS & XL" (Not that it would really change anything probably but still)

But then again, it could possibly also be due to balance issues and all. I wouldn't be too opposed to a significantly buffed "Ice Climber" with the Condor as it's new up special if worse comes to worst though.

 

[The Light Music Club]

I don't get why they have the same roster. Couldn't they pull a Pokemon type thing?

I do however think it's Ridley, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers and Wolf three of which would for sure 've finished last.