Character Discussion Thread

[OblivionWolf]

Can I see that comparison?

On this page in the spoiler tags.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ii-u-3ds-thread.324284/page-637#post-16728288

 

[Autumn ♫]

I'm really hoping that the Mii's just stay as online score avatars than playable characters. No bias here, folks.

 

[jweb22]

Uh, it's a shadow. You cannot accurately determine the size of the object from its shadow without considering the source of light. where it's coming from and the background on which the shadow is cast. It's all perspective.

Well if you look closely at Ridley's shadow you can see that he picks up Pikachu. So if anyone wants to take a crack at it, you should be able to get an idea of how big that Ridley is by comparing it to Pikachu's shadow.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I disagree. From the bit of his tail that we saw, we can deduce that it is definitely Other M Ridley. Something we, as the fan base, overlooked, was that Other M and standard Ridley are two different entities altogether. Remembering that, we have to wonder why Sakurai is being such a prick in showing off Other M Ridley as a stage boss. Personally, I believe it's because standard Ridley is a playable character. I can't prove it, but I don't see why else he'd be so secretive about Ridley.

I have no doubt that the Ridley we saw was the one from Other M, which in turn could mean that the original Ridley is playable. However, it's mainly those that are analyzing the movement of the shadow to deduce that the Ridley we partially saw was playable. While I think Ridley still has a chance since Ridley was only partially shown and not mentioned, I can't say I agree with most of the arguments regarding the shadow's movement.

 

[OblivionWolf]

Well if you look closely at Ridley's shadow you can see that he picks up Pikachu. So if anyone wants to take a crack at it, you should be able to get an idea of how big that Ridley is by comparing it to Pikachu's shadow.

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2..._2014_04_10_um_23_35_45_by_lilt92-d7dxcjy.png

 

[Xzsmmc]

I disagree. From the bit of his tail that we saw, we can deduce that it is definitely Other M Ridley. Something we, as the fan base, overlooked, was that Other M and standard Ridley are two different entities altogether. Remembering that, we have to wonder why Sakurai is being such a prick in showing off Other M Ridley as a stage boss. Personally, I believe it's because standard Ridley is a playable character. I can't prove it, but I don't see why else he'd be so secretive about Ridley.

Not to be a downer, but while he was a separate entity, was 'regular' Ridley ever shown in Other M? Because it could just be that OM Ridley is how he looks in that game's artstyle, since his appearance has had minor changes in each new iteration of Metroid. Given how Smash Bros. 4 has lifted Samus' look from Other M, that may be the art direction taken for Ridley as well.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

I have no doubt that the Ridley we saw was the one from Other M, which in turn could mean that the original Ridley is playable. However, it's mainly those that are analyzing the movement of the shadow to deduce that the Ridley we partially saw was playable. While I think Ridley still has a chance since Ridley was only partially shown and not mentioned, I can't say I agree with most of the arguments regarding the shadow's movement.

I can't imagine what we saw was playable. It stayed perfectly level which no playable character could do, so I think what we saw was a boss, and standard Ridley, as a playable character, has yet to be seen at all.

 

[Spinosaurus]

On this page in the spoiler tags.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...ii-u-3ds-thread.324284/page-637#post-16728288

Thanks. I'm honestly just confused from reading that though, it's poorly presented.

Well, I don't wanna delve into this discussion too much since it seems to go back and forth. I don't see any merit in studying the shadow right now when we'll probably know the answer next month or July anyway.

 

[Croph]

Yeah, yeah, I think it's okay if a Pokemon has a move/ability that works a bit differently then in the games (referring to Blaziken if he has a Speed Boost gimmick or whatever the argument was). A lot of Pokemon moves that we already have are tweaked a little... I suppose it's to fit better in the context of Smash. Heck, just look at Jiggs' Rest or Charizard's Rock Smash in Smash. Man, it would be hilarious in the Pokemon games if Rock Smash = literally smashing head against a rock to attack = high damage!

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

Not to be a downer, but while he was a separate entity, was 'regular' Ridley ever shown in Other M? Because it could just be that OM Ridley is how he looks in that game's artstyle, since his appearance has had minor changes in each new iteration of Metroid. Given how Smash Bros. 4 has lifted Samus' look from Other M, that may be the art direction taken for Ridley as well.

I've never played Other M, but from my limited knowledge, it sounds like you're tracking a creature that eventually grows into Other M Ridley. Unless standard Ridley reversed through its life cycle, that must have been a clone. That's just my limited knowledge, though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I can't imagine what we saw was playable. It stayed perfectly level which no playable character could do, so I think what we saw was a boss, and standard Ridley, as a playable character, has yet to be seen at all.

This is basically what I meant in my earlier post, nothing about the shadow's movment says "playable character" to me. Furthermore, I don't think there is really any point in continuously and carefully analyzing every single aspect in the footage, nothing that has come out of it has really held any water IMO, not towards the Ridley we saw being playable.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

This is basically what I meant in my earlier post, nothing about the shadow's movment says "playable character" to me. Furthermore, I don't think there is really any point in continuously and carefully analyzing every single aspect in the footage, nothing that has come out of it has really held any water IMO, not towards the Ridley we saw being playable.

I agree. I think Ridley is playable, but that is most certainly a boss, imo.

 

[Xzsmmc]

We'll probably know Ridley's fate in less than a month anyway. There's a good chance the Pyrosphere will be a playable stage in the Wii U demo. Personally, I think he'll regrettably be a boss, but I really hope I'm wrong.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

We'll probably know Ridley's fate in less than a month anyway. There's a good chance the Pyrosphere will be a playable stage in the Wii U demo. Personally, I think he'll regrettably be a boss, but I really hope I'm wrong.

Like I said above, I think he'll be both. Don't be discouraged even if he IS a boss. :D

 

[Morbi]

We'll probably know Ridley's fate in less than a month anyway. There's a good chance the Pyrosphere will be a playable stage in the Wii U demo. Personally, I think he'll regrettably be a boss, but I really hope I'm wrong.

That is weird to fathom, we will know in less than a month... I can't wait to see his game-play trailer!

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Thanks. I'm honestly just confused from reading that though, it's poorly presented.

Well, I don't wanna delve into this discussion too much since it seems to go back and forth. I don't see any merit in studying the shadow right now when we'll probably know the answer next month or July anyway.

Well its your opinion and im ok with that i was basicly making pin points of the shadows endings on the pyrosphere since all of the character shadows on the pyrosphere strech out the same as ridleys

But anyway i will get some help for making it more readable so the presention is better

 

[Deleted member]

That is weird to fathom, we will know in less than a month... I can't wait to see his game-play trailer!

Don't tell Sakurai but I grabbed a snippet of the new Ridley trailer, thank me later

Back to the topic at hand...still no Palutena reveal even though we're expecting her, huh?

 

[Morbi]

Don't tell Sakurai but I grabbed a snippet of the new Ridley trailer, thank me later

Back to the topic at hand...still no Palutena reveal even though we're expecting her, huh?

We still haven't had a Captain Falcon reveal even though we're expecting him.

 

[Bauske]

They make a lot of sense to me as well. I advocated for the Miis inclusion prior to the Direct. It's just that the things we saw in the Direct, I believe, were pointing against their inclusion, and yet so many people brushed it all away and continued treating Miis like some terrible inevitability. It kind of hurts arguing against them now, but I'm just going by what I believe is logical.

I find the hypocracy of people claiming there's evidence for Miis not being playable and then that there's evidence for Ridley being playable in the direct hilarious.

 

[Morbi]

I find the hypocracy of people claiming there's evidence for Miis not being playable and people claiming there's evidence for Ridley being playable in the direct hilarious.

There isn't necessarily evidence that Ridley is playable, merely the existence of logic through overt contradictions.

 

[False Sense]

Don't tell Sakurai but I grabbed a snippet of the new Ridley trailer, thank me later

Back to the topic at hand...still no Palutena reveal even though we're expecting her, huh?

Well, considering Palutena is a pretty popular character request, it wouldn't surprise me if they're saving her for later. She could potentially be revealed at E3, but I'm not sure if she's quite big enough for something like that. I've always kind of thought of her as being a good character to reveal post-E3. Not the biggest hype builder, but a good, popular character to generate hype just before (or after) the game's release.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I find the hypocracy of people claiming there's evidence for Miis not being playable and then that there's evidence for Ridley being playable in the direct hilarious.

Because people don't want Mii and do want Ridley, so clearly there is a strong sense of bias at play.

 

[False Sense]

I find the hypocracy of people claiming there's evidence for Miis not being playable and then that there's evidence for Ridley being playable in the direct hilarious.

I'm not really seeing the hypocrisy here. For there to be hypocrisy, there would have to be people who say that there is evidence against Miis while also saying there is evidence for Ridley. I personally can't recall ever seeing someone who claimed both simultaneously. I certainly haven't. Therefore, I don't think there is hypocrisy. Unless you have specific individuals in mind?

It's spelt with an i, by the way...

 

[Morbi]

I'm not really seeing the hypocrisy here. For there to be hypocrisy, there would have to be people who say that there is evidence against Miis while also saying there is evidence for Ridley. I personally can't recall ever seeing someone who claimed both simultaneously. I certainly haven't. Therefore, I don't think there is hypocrisy. Unless you have specific individuals in mind?

It's spelt with an i, by the way...

It is also spelled with an "s," by the way.

 

[False Sense]

It is also spelled with an "s," by the way.

Yeah, that too.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

I've never played Other M, but from my limited knowledge, it sounds like you're tracking a creature that eventually grows into Other M Ridley. Unless standard Ridley reversed through its life cycle, that must have been a clone. That's just my limited knowledge, though. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Its actually a clone regrown from the ridley that died in super metroid.

 

[Bauske]

I'm not really seeing the hypocrisy here. For there to be hypocrisy, there would have to be people who say that there is evidence against Miis while also saying there is evidence for Ridley. I personally can't recall ever seeing someone who claimed both simultaneously. I certainly haven't. Therefore, I don't think there is hypocrisy. Unless you have specific individuals in mind?

It's spelt with an i, by the way...

Stupid iPhone! It'll change the word haha to "gaga" but it can't freaking autocorrect me when I spell hypocrisy wrong? Bah!

In any case, I suppose the word hypocrisy is wrong, to some degree. There are probably people on these boards who have done just that. I guess a better word would be "contradictions." When I watched the Direct, Ridley was basically deconfirmed in my eyes. Would he make a cool character and a much needed extra Metroid rep? Heck yeah! But he's also never been a playable character and has always been seen as a boss, so it wasn't surprising to see what the direct showed.

But then I come back to the boards after the direct and it's like everyone went crazy with blind enthusiasm. After looking at all the evidence presented, could Ridley still be a playable character? I'll admit, there's a small chance, but I still don't see it as likely.

And then people are coming up with all this evidence as to why that same direct showed the Miis are not playable. It's just hilarious how bias completely changes people's views of what "evidence" is.

 

[False Sense]

Stupid iPhone! It'll change the word haha to "gaga" but it can't freaking autocorrect me when I spell hypocrisy wrong? Bah!

In any case, I suppose the word hypocrisy is wrong, to some degree. There are probably people on these boards who have done just that. I guess a better word would be "contradictions." When I watched the Direct, Ridley was basically deconfirmed in my eyes. Would he make a cool character and a much needed extra Metroid rep? Heck yeah! But he's also never been a playable character and has always been seen as a boss, so it wasn't surprising to see what the direct showed.

But then I come back to the boards after the direct and it's like everyone went crazy with blind enthusiasm. After looking at all the evidence presented, could Ridley still be a playable character? I'll admit, there's a small chance, but I still don't see it as likely.

And then people are coming up with all this evidence as to why the direct showed the Miis are not playable. It's just hilarious how bias completely changes people's views of what "evidence" is.

Yes, that's true. At the same time, though, there are a lot of people who say that Ridley is de-confirmed, and provide evidence for it, and there are a lot of people who say that Miis are still shoo-ins because people will believe anything someone says if they get an odd prediction right. But that's just kind of the nature of speculation; everyone will have their own take on a situation, and contradictory opinions will always pop up. You'll see that in a lot of other discussions besides those about Ridley and Miis.

I still think that both Ridley and Miis are possible, but not exactly likely, at this point.

 

[G0LD3N L0TUS]

I find the hypocracy of people claiming there's evidence for Miis not being playable and then that there's evidence for Ridley being playable in the direct hilarious.

There's evidence for Miis not being playable? WHERE CAN I FIND THIS DELICACY!?

 

[False Sense]

There's evidence for Miis not being playable? WHERE CAN I FIND THIS DELICACY!?

I wrote this up just earlier today. It's rather controversial (I'm talking about Miis NOT being playable, after all), but I think I make valid points.
Reposting it here. You can find more discussion on it in the Mii thread.

Well, after some thought, I decided to just go ahead and write up a little analysis of the Miis situation in Smash, and see what kind of evidence we've seen that's for or against their inclusion. Hopefully this will shed some light on the matter. So...

Why Miis?
Before I start analyzing things, I think it's important to get this bit out. Why should Miis be in Smash?

Well, for starters, Miis are near omnipresent nowadays. Ever since their introduction as avatars on the Wii, they've had recurring roles in numerous Nintendo games, to the point where it's difficult to keep track of them all. Aside from just games, Miis have become an icon for Nintendo as of late, with their prominence on the Wii being expanded upon on the 3DS (which is notable, considering that the 3DS has nothing to do with the Wii and didn't need to incorporate Miis, especially since there's no pun to be made) and the Wii U, the latter of which they are particularly prominent in through Miiverse, a new feature introduced that allows players to discuss games using their Miis. There's simply no denying the prominence Miis have now. So, when you have a game like Smash, a game that is known for bringing together Nintendo All-Stars together into one title, Miis seem like a good choice for being playable, as at this point they could certainly be considered Nintendo All-Stars. Of course, being an icon for Nintendo alone is not enough; characters also have to be capable of fighting it out with the other All-Stars on the roster. In other words, they need to have a move set to use. Fortunately for Miis, the numerous titles they've appeared in give them plenty of material to make a coherent move set out of, ranging from the sporting equipment from Wii Sports to magic and swordplay from Find Mii. Overall, Miis have a lot of good characteristics that would make them perfectly reasonable additions to the Smash roster.

Yeah, just wanted to get that part out of the way early. I do legitimately think that Miis are a justified addition to the Smash roster. Now obviously there is a ton of controversy regarding Miis being in Smash, with a lot of people hating the very concept of Miis being playable, and others who think that Miis would be too much of a technical challenge. Now, personally, I don't believe that either of these things would keep them out of Smash. Just as there are a lot of people who dislike Miis, there are a number of people who like them, and would enjoy seeing them in Smash (the existence of this thread is proof enough of that). And considering how Miis have been implemented into numerous other games at this point with no apparent difficulty, and considering how there are already very complex characters in Smash, a little bit of technical issues probably wouldn't stop Sakurai. So, the bottom line of all this is that Miis are justified, reasonable inclusions in Smash, and the reasons against their inclusion, while not beneficial to their chances, do in no way rule them out.

However, the main focus of this analysis isn't why Miis should be playable, or anything like that. The focus of this is to analyze what evidence we've actually seen in Smash 4 that supports or goes against the idea that Miis are playable in Smash.
Supporting Evidence
+ A stage based on Pilot Wings is present in the Wii U version of the game. This is notable due to the fact that the stage prominently features Wuhu Island, the setting for multiple "Wii" titles that heavily feature Miis. Miis have not been seen on the island thus far.

+ A stage based on Find Mii is present in the 3DS version of the game. As Find Mii is a game that's entirely based on Miis (compared to the Pilot Wings stage, which comes from a series that existed long before Miis), this is an ideal home stage for the Miis if they are playable.

+ A stage based on Tomodachi Life is present in the 3DS version of the game. Tomodachi Life is another game that focuses on Miis, in this case using them as citizens in a life-simulation game. Like the other stages before it, the presence of this stage in the game may hint at the appearance of playable Miis.

Well, I believe that's everything. If I left something out, do let me know. Now then...

Damaging Evidence
- The Pilot Wings stage, despite featuring Wuhu Island, may not mean much for the Miis being playable, as the Pilot Wings series has existed long before Miis have, and may simply be referencing the latest installment in the series as well as the older ones.

- The Miis appear as icons for players in Online mode, representing players and their "Global Smash Power." While not a de-confirmation by any means, this is an instance of Miis appearing in Smash in a role other than that of a playable character.

- One of the Miis biggest titles is Wii Sports, which many fans thought would be an ideal source to pull material from to make a move set for the Miis. However, another character on the roster, the Villager, already uses items like a bowling ball and boxing gloves in his own move set. Now, again, this obviously doesn't de-confirm Miis, as Little Mac was revealed sometime after the Villager, despite both utilizing boxing gloves for their move sets. However, it is something worth noting, especially considering that both the Villager and Miis are avatar characters who (would) use random props and items from their games to make a move set out of.

- A Mii appears in the cage of the Find Mii stage. As Toon Link has shown us, characters who appear in the background of stages are not necessarily de-confirmed. However, like with the Miis appearing in Online mode, this is an instance of Miis appearing in a role other than that of a playable character. While it's far from a de-confirmation, it is a strike against them.

- The Find Mii stage has a Find Mii crown for its series symbol (here we go...). This is a small but rather interesting detail that could mean a lot for the Miis chances. Within Smash, series that have representation through characters or stages are given a symbol to identify themselves with. The symbol for a series is usually something generic that can encompass whatever series it stands for as a whole (for example, the Mario series is represented by a mushroom symbol). The symbol of a series is then applied to any characters or stages that originate from that series. The Find Mii stage's symbol is rather interesting because of this. The stage is represented by a crown, which is clearly based on the crown worn by the King Mii that you work towards saving within Find Mii. In terms of representing Find Mii as a series, this fits in perfectly with the previous examples of symbols we've seen. However, if Miis were to be included as playable characters, the Find Mii stage would be an obvious choice for a home stage, as it comes from a game focused entirely on Miis. Given how closely the Miis and Find Mii are tied together, it would make sense that the stage would share a symbol with the Miis if they were playable. However, the crown symbol makes little to no sense as a symbol for the Miis. For one, the crown is distinctly based on Find Mii. If the Miis used this symbol, it would tie them to that specific game and that one alone, despite them appearing in numerous other titles aside from that (like Tomodachi Life, which is also getting a stage). Also, it is highly unlikely that the Find Mii stage will appear on the Wii U version of the game; thus, the symbol used by the Miis would have no meaning on that version of the game. Now, it could be argued that the Miis have no real series, and that the stages based on the Miis games could have their own symbol while the Miis have one of their own. However, this still doesn't make much sense. Despite not being part of the same series, the games based on Miis are still based on Miis. The games are all connected by the appearance of the Miis, thus making them "Mii" games. This is, in a way, similar to the Mario games. Games like Mario Kart, Luigi's Mansion, and Paper Mario aren't really part of the same series as, say, Super Mario Galaxy, being completely different genres and having multiple titles within that genre. Yet those games are still Mario games due to the presence of Mario characters and themes. Similarly, this translates into Smash, where stages based on Mario Kart and Luigi's Mansion share the same mushroom symbol that the rest of the Mario stages and characters do. Going off of that, it makes very little sense for the Find Mii stage to have a different symbol than that of the Miis if they are playable, considering that, even if it is distinct from other "Mii" games, Find Mii is still a "Mii" game. The most logical explanation for why the stage has a symbol different from that of the Miis is quite simple; Miis are not playable, and thus there is nothing to tie the "Mii" stages together, and each stage simply represents its own small series.

Well, I think that about sums it up. So, basically, what the Miis have going for them at this point are some stages based on games that Miis have featured prominently in. What they have going against them is them appearing in Smash in ways that aren't as playable characters, possible move set options being implemented in other characters, and the stages based on the "Mii" games possibly not associating themselves with any playable character.

In my mind, the negatives outweigh the positives. I find the Miis unlikely at this point.

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Ok i did one repair to my ridley posts that i made

Not the grammer part but i seperate some parts into seperate boxes so its more orginized

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I wrote this up just earlier today. It's rather controversial (I'm talking about Miis NOT being playable, after all), but I think I make valid points.
Reposting it here. You can find more discussion on it in the Mii thread.

This is interesting and somewhat convincing, but I also think it's noteworthy that we haven't seen the symbol for the Tomodachi Collection stage yet.

 

[Bowserlick]

In other fighting games (perhaps namco games), the boss or a boss is playable if unlocked.

 

[False Sense]

This is interesting and somewhat convincing, but I also think it's noteworthy that we haven't seen the symbol for the Tomodachi Collection stage yet.

True, but I don't really see much reason for it to have a generic Mii icon to share with the Miis while Find Mii doesn't. And if it doesn't share an icon with the Miis, that means that the Miis would be without a stage that has their icon, despite two stages that could very easily share their symbol being in the game.

The conclusion I draw is that Miis are not playable, meaning that Find Mii and the Tomodachi Life stages have no character to bind themselves to, and thus have a symbol representing themselves only.

 

[Kalimdori]

In other fighting games (perhaps namco games), the boss or a boss is playable if unlocked.

Heck, even in Smash Bros, we had Bowser as a boss and character in Melee (Giga Bowser).

And Kirby Air Ride, something that Smash is already drawing from, has Dedede as a boss and character. (Resized down as a character I might add)

I don't think Ridley is a shoe in (Although my bias makes me really close), but he certainly isn't disconfirmed in any way shape or form. Playable Ridley in the Direct, not so sure, but I wouldn't discount it either, there are some really weird things about it.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

So I see people discussing irrelevant characters...

Newsflash, Sakurai isn't going to put in your favorite irrelevant characters. Since Super Smash Bros. is about the latest development (and not importance, which is why Captain Falcon was cut from this game; he hasn't had a game in a decade), everyone is obviously going to be in because of relevancy. Sakurai doesn't care about fans, they can't make up their mind. Uniqueness doesn't matter, which obviously explains why Lucario replaced Mewtwo with a cloned move set and why Mewtwo was never heard of again (especially not in X & Y? You mean they'd give him two Mega Evolutions? Pfft). Who cares about King K. Rool and his past games a a villain, he's done for. This explains why Chrom, Mii, and Pac-Man were confirmed at E3 2013 and why Mega Man was shut down by Sakurai; he isn't relevant enough.

...oh you want a humanoid robotic character? Look no further than Astro Boy:

Introducing Astro Boy, who starts in a brand spankin' new anime called Little Astro Boy that has aired just this year. It has been a hit in Nigeria and is translating all over the world because everyone (for now) loves Astro Boy. Because of this outstanding hit the anime has been, Tezuka Production has been looking into including Astro Boy into the next Super Smash Bros. After putting up a great case about how relevant Astro Boy has been, Sakurai eventually decided to put Astro Boy in as a late addition because we must have more recent reps. This means that Wolf and Isaac are getting the boot since they are too low of a priority to add due to being irrelevant. Remember, we are running out of worthwhile Nintendo, so obvious, Sakurai has to look at third-parties (and yes Astro Boy is third-party, deal with it).

Then at E3 2014, Sceptile, Chorus Men were confirmed. Despite people complaining about how RIdley was a stage hazard, King K. Rool was a boss, and Mewtwo was a Pokeball, Sakurai mentioned that he had a special surprise for everyone. It is then that Astro Boy was revealed to make his debut as a playable character. Everyone then roared across the screen in tears because they hated the idea of Astro Boy being playable. But with an amazingly unique move set, Astro Boy proves that he was relevant enough to get in, non-video game status be damned.

Remember folks, you may not have Mewtwo, Mega Man, King K. Rool, or Ridley as playable, but Sakurai always knows how to make characters you don't know you want.

Don't forget that Ike and Lucas has been cut!

 

[Will]

I said I would make a roster for a Bug - Type pokemon,which was Heracross ,but my computer crashed. Eh,I'll make one later.

 

[Andinus]

In other fighting games (perhaps namco games), the boss or a boss is playable if unlocked.

I highly doubt we will be able to play as a boss character that takes up half the screen though, unless it is a final smash.
But you are not referring to playing as a huge boss character though right?

 

[Bowserlick]

Correct. I see no reason why he cannot be resized after beaten as a boss.

 

[Cobalsh]

Correct. I see no reason why he cannot be resized after beaten as a boss.

It actually seems sort of likely. We have playable Oni Akuma, True Ogre, and Alpha -152, why not Ridley?