Character Discussion Thread

[Thirdkoopa]

Fire Emblem Debates: will still happen even after a leak

 

[Autumn ♫]

Fire Emblem Debates: will still happen even after a leak

It's not like I believe it at all.

 

[Zzuxon]

To be honest I doubt it, remember than when you beat a boss hazard it is supposed to help the player that beated him, if you can control the boss then the purpose of boss hazard would be pointless

Yes, in a NORMAL Fight.
In this hypothetical boss battle mode, all normal characters would team up against the boss.

 

[Kenith]

Is that why only Chrom is required to be taken into each level? He's the main character, if it came down to one.

He's the leader of the army you're controlling in the game. That's also why only Chrom can recruit people to said army.

Technically speaking, Robin is always present even when not in use because he's the tactician.

 

[Zzuxon]

*ahem*
I repeat.

The best solution to all Chrom Vs Lucina debates. Put them in an Ice Climbers Team.

 

[proxibomb]

So, we've seen the Final Smash of: Samus, Lucario, Charizard, Villager, MegaMan, Wii-Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Little Mac, and Greninja.

Awesome. I do wonder, I kinda expect a lot of veterans to get a new FS. There's certanly a lot more to be seen, and so far, they are all very Epic. I like that.

Especially Villager's. The most Epic Final Smash ever made.

I have expectations for people like Pit, Luigi, Princess Peach, Ness, Lucas, Zelda, Sheik, and Charizard to have different final smashes. So far, only Luigi and put have changed.

 

[Sehnsucht]

*ahem*
I repeat.
View attachment 13068
The best solution to all Chrom Vs Lucina debates. Put them in an Ice Climbers Team.

Better yet, make them an alternate costume for the Ice Climbers.

 

[Cobalsh]

Better yet, make them an alternate costume for the Ice Climbers.

No. That spot goes to the Ike Climbers.

 

[Cobalsh]

If Smash Run isn't innovative for being a "Kirby Air Ride rip-off", then I really fail to see how SSE, a.k.a. "Kirby Super Star rip-off" is.
Logically speaking, few bought Brawl for SSE, which has been heavily criticized. They bought it for the multiplayer. As in, what people really care about for the franchise.

Who in their right mind buys a fighting game for the story?

EDIT: Also, I'm not even arguing in the context of the roster, so you can shove your pity somewhere else. I'm arguing against the fallacy that Smash Wii U/3DS has nothing innovative about it.

People who bought Injustice sort of bought it for the story... I sure did. Came for the story, stayed for the Deathstroke.

Edit: Aw, goddamnit,

 

[Kenith]

Lucina's role in the story was one thing: To serve as the gateway to the future in the story.

After the whole thing happened, she might have been present every time, but she DIDN'T do anything. You might as well kill her off from the story early in the game and it wouldn't make a difference. That scene with Robin was cringe worthy and was worthless. A boring character and underdeveloped.

Didn't do the DLC since I didn't like the main game anyway.

If you think that, you must not have paid attention to the game. The one thing she did was a very huge thing.

And if you hate Awakening so much, why would you want to talk about it?

 

[The Nerd]

I apologize, I meant a pivotal aspect of Brawl. Not Smash, that was negligence on my part. I understand that the franchise is changing, evolving. However, I also believe that it objectively moves the game backwards. Subspace apparently took 3/5 of the development time, where is that in Smash 4? I hope it didn't all go to Smash Run and move-set customization. That is all I am trying to convey. Again, I am not advocating SSE, I am glad it is gone.

I'm still not sure I agree with your saying it moves the game backwards; either you mean in the context of Smash which I strongly disagree with, or you mean that this game is Brawl 2.0 and it's moving backwards with respect to that, which I also disagree with. Perhaps a better way to phrase this is how are these resources being reallocated? I suspect there will be no one thing it goes to. While this is pure opinion, I believe that every newcomer we have had so far has a level of polish and intelligence in their design that far surpasses the characters of previous games. Along with this, we seem to have a plethora of new items that were not present for previous iterations and many of these items seem to have more thought into them as well. To me it seems as though this time around there will be a higher focus on making each individual facet of the game far tighter and better than Brawl's was. It's additionally worth noting that many older characters seem to be getting some moveset changes. It also seems likely that the 3DS is causing some additional limitations, and I suspect a decent chunk of the software design is going into circumventing as many of these limitations as they can. What does this mean for the roster in terms of newcomers? I hope for 50, but I suspect it is more reasonable to be in the mid to high forties. I suspect we'll have more event matches, stages, items, game modes, and customization options than ever before. I very much expect a bigger and better stage builder; I cannot imagine that not returning. I hope but do not expect a good online mode, given that I cannot think of a game offhand that Nintendo's online was good in. MK7 I guess? I suspect the roster will be better balanced and more interesting in terms of gameplay, but not a huge amount larger.

In other news, I highly doubt Chrom & Lucina as a tag-team character. It seems likely that the ICs could be trouble in terms of how to make them work in the hardware, and so if they were unsure if they could make IC's tag team work then adding a hypothetical new character with the same mechanics that are already problematic is too foolish to ignore. This is predicated on the idea that the ICs are causing problems however; if you do not believe that they are or did in the past during the development of this game then disregard.

 

[Spinosaurus]

If you think that, you must not have paid attention to the game. The one thing she did was a very huge thing.

That's flawed. Her role, important as it is, was very simple. In no way does it define her character or improve her. Beyond that, she is nothing.

And if you hate Awakening so much, why would you want to talk about it?

...Wha?

I advocate criticism, and enjoy debates. I was only expressing my opinion on the game.
I could go all day about what went wrong with the design of Awakening, but this is not the place for that and I'm merely here to give my input regarding Lucina's character since it seemed to me like it's the current subject.. It has nothing to do with Smash, actually. I don't even want Chrom or Robin in.

 

[Kenith]

That's flawed. Her role, important as it is, was very simple. In no way does it define her character or improve her. Beyond that, she is nothing.

Lucina's character development has nothing to do with her being in Smash Bros. Which is all you are talking about.

 

[Pacack]

*ahem*
I repeat.
View attachment 13068
The best solution to all Chrom Vs Lucina debates. Put them in an Ice Climbers Team.

So instead of three blue sword users in Fire Emblem, we get four.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Lucina's character development has nothing to do with her being in Smash Bros. Which is all you are talking about.

I never said it was. I am just giving my input on her (Smash inclusion or not) since it was the current subject.

 

[Zzuxon]

So instead of three blue sword users in Fire Emblem, we get four.

... That is ONE way to look at it. I prefer to loo on the bright side of life. We do get a father-daughter team, which is awesome.

 

[NickerBocker]

I'm still not sure I agree with your saying it moves the game backwards; either you mean in the context of Smash which I strongly disagree with, or you mean that this game is Brawl 2.0 and it's moving backwards with respect to that, which I also disagree with. Perhaps a better way to phrase this is how are these resources being reallocated? I suspect there will be no one thing it goes to. While this is pure opinion, I believe that every newcomer we have had so far has a level of polish and intelligence in their design that far surpasses the characters of previous games. Along with this, we seem to have a plethora of new items that were not present for previous iterations and many of these items seem to have more thought into them as well. To me it seems as though this time around there will be a higher focus on making each individual facet of the game far tighter and better than Brawl's was. It's additionally worth noting that many older characters seem to be getting some moveset changes. It also seems likely that the 3DS is causing some additional limitations, and I suspect a decent chunk of the software design is going into circumventing as many of these limitations as they can. What does this mean for the roster in terms of newcomers? I hope for 50, but I suspect it is more reasonable to be in the mid to high forties. I suspect we'll have more event matches, stages, items, game modes, and customization options than ever before. I very much expect a bigger and better stage builder; I cannot imagine that not returning. I hope but do not expect a good online mode, given that I cannot think of a game offhand that Nintendo's online was good in. MK7 I guess? I suspect the roster will be better balanced and more interesting in terms of gameplay, but not a huge amount larger.

In other news, I highly doubt Chrom & Lucina as a tag-team character. It seems likely that the ICs could be trouble in terms of how to make them work in the hardware, and so if they were unsure if they could make IC's tag team work then adding a hypothetical new character with the same mechanics that are already problematic is too foolish to ignore. This is predicated on the idea that the ICs are causing problems however; if you do not believe that they are or did in the past during the development of this game then disregard.

I dont exactly agree. The roster size will just be a function of how many characters they can fit into a cartridge, along with other game modes, levels, etc. That can be easily fixed through a patch on the first day, which will add any missing content.

I also doubt that tag teams will be any trouble for the dev team. I mean, Sakurai could have been expressing his frustration towards programming that one specific character as an example. The problem could have been alleviated very soon after the comment. Maybe the way he has created those characters in the past is now not compatible or efficient enough for the 3DS? Im not a game developer, so I dont know 100% for sure whats going on with that, but that is my opinion on it. But, Combine that with a character like Rosalina and/or Olimar, who arguably is harder to program for the game (I would guess Rosalina) and I doubt it is a problem.

Also, if RAM is the problem, as in there isnt enough power to run a character like that, the game is running at 60 fps, which does eat a lot of processing power (especially in 3d where you have to do 120 fps) which I think is a testament to both the efficiency they are aiming for and the power of the system. Regardless, maybe Sakurai is aiming to make the programming very efficient, and is trying to achieve the same level with all the characters.

Thats my 2 cents on it.

 

[Pacack]

Lucina's character development has nothing to do with her being in Smash Bros. Which is all you are talking about.

You did use personality as a plus in the RTC thread.

... That is ONE way to look at it. I prefer to loo on the bright side of life. We do get a father-daughter team, which is awesome.

Eh. I'd rather have...almost anyone else.

 

[FlareHabanero]

So how does it feel to beat a dead horse, folks?
I mean, there's only ashes left, so what is there to even beat?

 

[Kenith]

You did use personality as a plus in the RTC thread.

Did I really? God. I'm stupid.

Wasn't I using it to differentiate her from Marth?

 

[thesandman]

In other news, I highly doubt Chrom & Lucina as a tag-team character. It seems likely that the ICs could be trouble in terms of how to make them work in the hardware, and so if they were unsure if they could make IC's tag team work then adding a hypothetical new character with the same mechanics that are already problematic is too foolish to ignore. This is predicated on the idea that the ICs are causing problems however; if you do not believe that they are or did in the past during the development of this game then disregard.

technically. Nana was considered a glorified item. Just like the pikmin. While i agree with you that lucina and chrom as a tag team is upsurd, ice climbers are extremely likely. And i can bet they will be back.

 

[False Sense]

You mean, present for the entire game, just not playable.
And Chrom isn't even the main character, that is undoubtedly Robin.

Really?
She has an active role in the story, is the focus of multiple DLC chapters, and appears in almost every actual cutscene.

Well, she is present from early on in the game, but she doesn't really do much until later on. She basically shows up, leaves, fights Chrom, leaves, reveals her gender, leaves again, cameos after Emmeryn falls, during which she does nothing, then disappears until she saves Chrom and joins the party (which from a story perspective is, if I recall, two years after Emmeryn dies). She really just doesn't do much in the game until she actually joins up with you and is actually there to influence events. Now, I'll admit she has a large impact before she joins up with you. Her attempts at altering the past have a pretty significant impact on the overall events of the game. But she's hardly the focus of those events; the focus is usually Chrom or Robin, the two characters who are present for the entirety of the game.

 

[Kenith]

Well, she is present from early on in the game, but she doesn't really do much until later on. She basically shows up, leaves, fights Chrom, leaves, reveals her gender, leaves again, cameos after Emmeryn falls, during which she does nothing, then disappears until she saves Chrom and joins the party. She really just doesn't do much in the game until she actually joins up with you and is actually there to influence events. Now, I'll admit she has a large impact before she joins up with you. Her attempts at altering the past have a pretty significant impact on the overall events of the game. But she's hardly the focus of those events; the focus is usually Chrom or Robin, the two characters who are present for the entirety of the game.

She's pretty prominent in the Future DLC. She actually becomes the future's exalt and performs the rite of Awakening, and kills Grima.

 

[The Nerd]

I dont exactly agree. The roster size will just be a function of how many characters they can fit into a cartridge, along with other game modes, levels, etc. That can be easily fixed through a patch on the first day, which will add any missing content.

I also doubt that tag teams will be any trouble for the dev team. I mean, Sakurai could have been expressing his frustration towards programming that one specific character as an example. The problem could have been alleviated very soon after the comment. Maybe the way he has created those characters in the past is now not compatible or efficient enough for the 3DS? Im not a game developer, so I dont know 100% for sure whats going on with that, but that is my opinion on it. But, Combine that with a character like Rosalina and/or Olimar, who arguably is harder to program for the game (I would guess Rosalina) and I doubt it is a problem.

Also, if RAM is the problem, as in there isnt enough power to run a character like that, the game is running at 60 fps, which does eat a lot of processing power (especially in 3d where you have to do 120 fps) which I think is a testament to both the efficiency they are aiming for and the power of the system. Regardless, maybe Sakurai is aiming to make the programming very efficient, and is trying to achieve the same level with all the characters.

Thats my 2 cents on it.

A couple of points I strongly disagree with. First of all, roster size is DEFINITELY not just a function of how many characters they can fit on a cartridge, otherwise cut characters are hilariously bad planning or non existant. As for the rest, as I said, it might have been an issue at the time. It's worth remembering that Pikmin and Luma are both very low res models when compared to Nana, who has thus far been modeled with the same fidelity as any other character. I agree that a lot of the development time may potentially be sunk into making the 3DS version so efficient, which is why I do not think it's fair to say that the lack of SSE automatically guarantees 50+ characters.

technically. Nana was considered a glorified item. Just like the pikmin. While i agree with you that lucina and chrom as a tag team is upsurd, ice climbers are extremely likely. And i can bet they will be back.

Is this in terms of the code? I was under the impression that Nana is coded as a separate character with AI that exists pseudo-independently, whereas the pikmin were overglorified items.

Anyways, in both cases it's worth noting that I'm not advocating that the ICs will not come back, just that because of the difficulties they might pose Sakurai may have been hesitant to add a bunch of other characters that are mechanically similar, hence my skepticism with the premise of a Chrom + anyone duo.

 

[False Sense]

She's pretty prominent in the Future DLC. She actually becomes the future's exalt and performs the rite of Awakening, and kills Grima.

True. She's very prominent in that particular DLC. However, I feel that using DLC as justification for a character's inclusion to be odd, really. It's an optional part of the game. Not everyone who played through Awakening will have actually purchased that DLC, so justifying a character under the assumption that everyone has is a bit flawed.

Also, Robin played a pretty significant role in that DLC too.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I'm in the "Lucina was important but not prominent" party. Sure she had a big impact on the game's story, but it was just one thing within the whole game. After her part of the story is over, she pulls just as much weight as someone like Donnel, and DLC is definitely not something one should consider. A boulder could fall on the main protagonist's twin brother and kill him, causing a major shift in the story and being a major plot point, but that doesn't make the boulder itself important.

 

[FlareHabanero]

People should deserve no character from Fire Emblem: Awakening, but apparently we're forced to get the most unoriginal one.

Because, you know, it's not like we have ****ing Marth and Ike or anything.

 

[Kenith]

True. She's very prominent in that particular DLC. However, I feel that using DLC as justification for a character's inclusion to be odd, really. It's an optional part of the game. Not everyone who played through Awakening will have actually purchased that DLC, so justifying a character under the assumption that everyone has is a bit flawed.

Also, Robin played a pretty significant role in that DLC too.

Well, DLC ties into the promotion of the game, which Lucina is much more prominent in. In fact, the other characters basically have none of that. She appears in the artbook, the soundtrack, she has a figure being made of her by Figma, tons of other promotional artwork... Albeit, mostly as "Marth", but I think her mystery was a selling point of the game also.

 

[Zzuxon]

I wish the next FE lord would just be a wizard.
I've never played a FE game, though I'd like to. Would a Wizard Lord present mechanical problems?

 

[False Sense]

Well, DLC ties into the promotion of the game, which Lucina is much more prominent in. In fact, the other characters basically have none of that. She appears in the artbook, the soundtrack, she has a figure being made of her by Figma, tons of other promotional artwork... Albeit, mostly as "Marth", but I think her mystery was a selling point of the game also.

Again, true. She is used to promote the game quite a bit, even if it mostly is as "Marth." However, how much does this actually boost her chances? I mean, look at our latest newcomer, Greninja. That thing's existence wasn't even officially revealed until after X and Y were released. Absolutely no promotion whatsoever, yet he managed to get in regardless. So what about Lucina? Yes, she's promoted, but that apparently isn't everything, and she still doesn't play as big a role as her two biggest competitors, Chrom and Robin. Really, I don't see much reason for her to get in over either of those two characters.

 

[Kenith]

Frankly, I don't like the idea of just Chrom because its so obvious.

He's essentially a fusion of Marth and Ike, both in his role in the game and character.

Also, because of Smash speculation.

 

[Deleted member]

People who bought Injustice sort of bought it for the story... I sure did. Came for the story, stayed for the Deathstroke.

Injustice is probably the diamond in the rough where a fighting game's story is actually good.
But at the same time, I find it hard to believe the story is the main driving force of sales as opposed to it being a DC Comics fighter made by the guys in charge of Mortal Kombat.

You are correct, no reasonable person would buy a fighting game for a story, but they appeal to the casual consumer base. Injustice is the prime example if we were to exclude Brawl. It is just something to justify the purchase I suppose. The multiplayer is definitely the most prominent aspect, but removing SSE still objectively moves the franchise backwards.

No, it really doesn't. There's nothing Smash Wii U/3DS could have done with it without it being forced and a waste of time. The plotline was wrapped up with no opening left for a sequel, and too many changes to account for exist between then and now in regards to the characters (in more than just the quantity).

Now, if you're just talking a story mode like SSE in general, that's more understandable. However, any attempt to reconstruct something as expansive as that from scratch would just come off as stale and would eat too much away from resources and time.
So instead, like how SSE was something different from Melee's Adventure Mode, we'll be getting something else that's different. For the 3DS, that's Smash Run. For Wii U? Who the Hell knows? The only thing we know is that we will not get a single player campaign that's a full-blown cutscene-heavy story mode. But there will be a single player campaign.
Considering who's co-developing the game, we could very well get something like a personalized campaign for each character.

I will go ahead and admit that Smash Run is innovative. I still do not believe that it is enough, I can't see it being something that people play more than once. It is fallacious to assert this without any logical basis. But it certainly isn't comparable to SSE. NOWHERE near it.

Well, SSE was something people usually don't play through more than once, so I'd say you're comparing it quite well.

In response to your edit, would you ever so kindly indicate where I stated or alluded to such?

If you believe that innovation is merely customization that isn't offered to every individual player, if you truly believe that is enough to differentiate this from a game that released 6 years ago, if you honestly believe that a roster is irrelevant to the longevity of a game... I pity the fool.

Also, I couldn't help but notice you think customization is solely individual, and you can't use it online.
That's wrong.
You can use customized characters when playing online with friends. The only time you can't use customized characters is with random people in the For Fun/Glory modes.

Also, this wasn't brought up in the Direct, but customization is one of the links between the two games. You customize the characters on the 3DS and can import them to the Wii U.
http://www.joystiq.com/2013/06/13/wii-u-and-3ds-smash-bros-will-not-have-cross-platform-play-wil/

Specifically, players will be able to take characters they've customized and transfer them to the Wii U version.

 

[Kenith]

Again, true. She is used to promote the game quite a bit, even if it mostly is as "Marth." However, how much does this actually boost her chances? I mean, look at our latest newcomer, Greninja. That thing's existence wasn't even officially revealed until after X and Y were released. Absolutely no promotion whatsoever, yet he managed to get in regardless. So what about Lucina? Yes, she's promoted, but that apparently isn't everything, and she still doesn't play as big a role as her two biggest competitors, Chrom and Robin. Really, I don't see much reason for her to get in over either of those two characters.

Actually, the opposite is true. While he may not have been promoted before release, but his starting form, Froakie, was, and Greninja was kept a secret, much like Lucina and "Marth".

Meanwhile, he also has become very popular, also like Lucina.

 

[Floor]

Looking over the most recent posts here... If Lucina dies, it is game over. That makes her important.

EDIT: proven false. She can die, but she she is still important in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

Looking over the most recent posts here... If Lucina dies, it is game over. That makes her important.

Actually, this is not true.
It's only if Chrom or the Avatar dies.

Lucina is however, one of the characters that cannot "die" because of being plot relevant. She's just incapable of fighting for the rest of the game.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Actually, the opposite is true. While he may not have been promoted before release, but his starting form, Froakie, was, and Greninja was kept a secret, much like Lucina and "Marth".

Meanwhile, he also has become very popular, also like Lucina.

It's worth mentioning at that time of Pokemon X & Y being promoted, Froakie was often labeled as the less popular while Fennekin was the most popular. Though it's sort of ironic because now the opposite is happening ever since the evolutions were revealed. Though then again, Instant Awesome, Just Add Ninja.

 

[Floor]

r

Actually, this is not true.
It's only if Chrom or the Avatar dies.

Lucina is however, one of the characters that cannot "die" because of being plot relevant. She's just incapable of fighting for the rest of the game.

Really? I could've sworn it was game over...

 

[Deleted member]

It's worth mentioning at that time of Pokemon X & Y being promoted, Froakie was often labeled as the less popular while Fennekin was the most popular. Though it's sort of ironic because now the opposite is happening ever since the evolutions were revealed. Though then again, Instant Awesome, Just Add Ninja.

IIRC, Froakie was middle-ground and Chespin was the least liked. Could be wrong, though.

 

[Gunla]

IIRC, Froakie was middle-ground and Chespin was the least liked. Could be wrong, though.

When the games were first revealed, closely yes. Everyone liked Fennekin.
But as Xeno stated, once the evolutions were revealed, everyone flocked to the ninja as their favorite.

 

[FlareHabanero]

IIRC, Froakie was middle-ground and Chespin was the least liked. Could be wrong, though.

I've seen polls before like on Serebii, and I remember Froakie being the least popular of the starters.

I may need to do some snooping for citation purposes though.