Character Discussion Thread

[Tepig2000]

If you didn't get the memo already, stop with the one-liners.

Oops. Sorry.

With Ganondorf, his moveset does deserve to receive some big adjustments to keep him from being a laughing stock. Maybe have some of his attacks involve the use of his sword, while others focus on his physical force.

As for the Final Smash, it should be made into an actual transformation, instead of a mere attack. Ocarina of Time Ganon actually fits the Final Smash mold quite nicely.

[collapse=Ganon (Ocarina of Time incarnation)]

[/collapse]

I liked his Brawl Final Smash and I hope it stays. It is powerful and makes sense, that is all I need. But I guess your idea wouldn't be bad either.

 

[ChikoLad]

Well, the first part is fair enough. It's fine to think that there are better choices for the roster than another Mario. I've never even wanted Paper Mario myself, and still don't, really. However, I don't think the argument that he's too similar to Mario is particularly valid, and more importantly, that you're rude behavior was unwarranted.

And I'm afraid I still don't understand why bringing up those other characters has any relevance. Sure, there are other characters that exist in the universe who can do things similar to Paper Mario. The same can be said for pretty much any existing video game character. Mario isn't the only character in the world who can use fireballs, Pikachu isn't the only one who can use electricity, Ganondorf isn't the only one who can attack with darkness, etc. What's more, the characters you brought up aren't nearly as important as characters overall. Prince Fluff only made an appearance in one Kirby game, so it seems odd that he'd be added over a more recurring character like Bandanna Dee, if a new Kirby character is added at all. Dimentio is a villain from one game in the Paper Mario series, so why would he be added in over Paper Mario, the icon of that sub series of the Mario franchise? I just don't see how these characters existences pertain to Paper Mario's validity as a character, at all.

...I'm not being rude. If you are somehow interpreting me as rude, then you're being oversensitive. You tried to incorrectly tell me what my argument was and I corrected you. How is that rude?

As for the rest of your post:

1) Thar point about "Other characters can use electricity" and what not is flawed. And to demonstrate - why suggest a character based on their one dimension related ability (BTW, 2D to 3D flipping would not work in the Smash engine), when there is a character who has many? That's like saying Sonic should wield a sword this time around because he's done so in one game, and that he should get in over a character who always uses a sword. Pikachu is known for electricity (and is the Pokemon mascot). Of course he's the series rep.

Paper Mario is known for being Mario drawn differently. Just because he's got one or two things Mario doesn't otherwise have, doesn't mean he's properly distinct. And if those things are done better by other characters (who are actually distinct AS characters), then he loses all merit. Don't try to side step this fact just because Paper Mario can do one or two things Mario doesn't normally do.

2) Relevancy is not more important than merit and appeal. Rosalina was only truly relevant in one game's plot.

 

[UltimateWario]

Not sure if this is "overall" discussion material, but does anyone worry that Rosalina, sharing her build with Mewtwo, will suffer the same fate? Being tall and light does not a powerful contender make. I don't care for her beyond "I enjoyed Mario Galaxy so I'm not too upset with this, I guess", but to have any character suck is bad.

I'm a tad worried that her (JonTron voice) PUPPETRY abilities won't save her.

 

[The Nerd]

let's trade in the entire mario franchise imo

I don't know if I'd do that for Ganon, as Rosalina looks quite fun. It's tempting though! I'd trade, oh, I dunno, Fire Emblem? Nah, I actually like Marth a lot. There aren't many series I'd actually be willing to throw aside in their entirety, although ROB's... thing? If it qualifies? Would be something I'd trade for a solid Ganon.

 

[BKupa666]

I also agree with @TumblrFamous, because Ganondorf is far and away the most important character from the Zelda franchise not yet added into Smash. He should replace Wheezing Old Man in a Ganondorf Costume this time around, much like Bowser replaced Cheap Movie Monster Resembling Bowser.

 

[Opossum]

I think that unlike Mewtwo, Rosalina has enough other tools to work with to remain usable. Just my thoughts, however.

 

[AEMehr]

Truthfully, the only thing I really want Ganondorf to have is Warlock Punch replaced by Dead-Man's Volley (and to remove Wizard's Foot in favor of something not obviously taken from Falcon pls???).

 

[BKupa666]

Also, at least Rosalina, unlike Mewtwo, doesn't lug around an annoyingly long tail hurtbox as yet another unneeded handicap.

 

[UltimateWario]

and to remove Wizard's Foot

Why would you get rid of the best move in the game?

...forgot this wasn't Project M for a second.

 

[The Nerd]

Truthfully, I the only thing I really want Ganondorf to have is Warlock Punch replaced by Dead-Man's Volley (and to remove Wizard's Foot in favor of something not obviously taken form Falcon pls???).

I'm indifferent to the Warlock Punch, because it's a great party trick when chilling out and playing with friends. Wizard's foot could definitely hit the road though, I'd be very happy to have a new down -b on him.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I liked his Brawl Final Smash and I hope it stays. It is powerful and makes sense, that is all I need. But I guess your idea wouldn't be bad either.

I just feel that Ganondorf's Final Smash was simply wasted by making Beast Ganon be just an attack. If Ganon becomes an actual transformation, players would at least be able to play as him for a while before reverting back to Ganondorf.

 

[josh bones]

Why would you get rid of the best move in the game?

...forgot this wasn't Project M for a second.

Are you implying volcano kick isn't best move?

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I want to say Tetra will appear alone, but I can't imagine a Toon variation of an existing character would not be called toon or not share moves with the character. (or at least be attached to one who is)

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I want to see Warlock Punch gone in favor of Dead Man's Volley, a levitation ability instead of an electrical version of Capt. Falcon's Up-special, keep Flame Choke, and...well, I'm not so sure on the Down-special. I would also be happy to see a more Akuma-styled Ganondorf as well.

 

[ITALIAN N1NJA]

I'm sure if Sakurai wanted to, he could make a real good original moveset. Brawl started to have him stray from being a clone. Project M only took him a step further of being more unique. I don't think Ganondorf is meant to be a swordsman personally. Maybe a few sword attacks. But Ganondorf seems like he should be some magic, some sword attacks, and some fist fighting attacks.

 

[AEMehr]

I'm indifferent to the Warlock Punch, because it's a great party trick when chilling out and playing with friends. Wizard's foot could definitely hit the road though, I'd be very happy to have a new down -b on him.

I'm more in favor of removing Warlock Punch for Dead-Man's Volley because of how iconic the move is.
A character's neutral special is generally something that character they are iconic for, and practically every variation of Ganon has used Dead-Man's Volley in some form.

Tennis matches would also be a great party trick too, maybe even a mini-game of it's own.

 

[UltimateWario]

Are you implying volcano kick isn't best move?

Project M Wizard's Foot > Project M Electric Sumo Stomp > Every attack in Smash ever.

I don't want Ganon to be another swordsman, not because "TOO MANY SWORDSMEN", but because he has so much potential beyond that. He has so many abilities to go to rather than just swinging his big glowing sword around.

 

[josh bones]

...I'm not being rude. If you are somehow interpreting me as rude, then you're being oversensitive. You tried to incorrectly tell me what my argument was and I corrected you. How is that rude?

As for the rest of your post:

1) Thar point about "Other characters can use electricity" and what not is flawed. And to demonstrate - why suggest a character based on their one dimension related ability (BTW, 2D to 3D flipping would not work in the Smash engine), when there is a character who has many? That's like saying Sonic should wield a sword this time around because he's done so in one game, and that he should get in over a character who always uses a sword. Pikachu is known for electricity (and is the Pokemon mascot). Of course he's the series rep.

Paper Mario is known for being Mario drawn differently. Just because he's got one or two things Mario doesn't otherwise have, doesn't mean he's properly distinct. And if those things are done better by other characters (who are actually distinct AS characters), then he loses all merit. Don't try to side step this fact just because Paper Mario can do one or two things Mario doesn't normally do.

2) Relevancy is not more important than merit and appeal. Rosalina was only truly relevant in one game's plot.

1: Paper Mario is known for being MADE OF PAPER, so his moveset should be about paper, not using that would be like Link not using his sword.
2: Popularity and uniqueness are way more important than relevancy, or else we would've gotten ryu.

Volcano Kick > Project M Wizard's Foot > Project M Electric Sumo Stomp > Every attack in Smash ever.

Fixed

 

[Opossum]

I want to say Tetra will appear alone, but I can't imagine a Toon variation of an existing character would not be called toon or not share moves with the character. (or at least be attached to one who is)

I kinda see where you're going with this, actually. Aesthetically it does seem a bit odd, but eh, I could see it go either way.

I'm indifferent on Tetra over all. I definitely wouldn't hate her, though. Plus, pirates are cool. Ridley and K. Rool show us that.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I don't see why people want Dead Man's Volley or how it would even function considering you need a special ability to deflect energy based attacks and it would require both players to remain in the same spot and participate and not get bored of a game of stalemate.

I don't see what's so much more interesting about another energy based ball. Assuming it functions the same as others (which I do assume) why not just keep the Warlock Punch?

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I don't see why people want Dead Man's Volley or how it would even function considering you need a special ability to deflect energy based attacks and it would require both players to remain in the same spot and participate and not get bored of a game of stalemate.

I don't see what's so much more interesting about another energy based ball.

Well I could see them making that attack a little different to make it work. Make it so characters can either shield deflect it, or hit it back with a well placed attack of any kind. But give Ganondorf a chance to dodge so it isn't always backfiring.

It's just an iconic move. That's what I'm assuming people want it for anyway.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think that unlike Mewtwo, Rosalina has enough other tools to work with to remain usable. Just my thoughts, however.

Also, at least Rosalina, unlike Mewtwo, doesn't lug around an annoyingly long tail hurtbox as yet another unneeded handicap.

Part of me feels that even though Rosalina is tall and light, she may have more than enough pros to avoid ending up on the same road as Mewtwo. The Luma does help with her approaches after all.

Truthfully, the only thing I really want Ganondorf to have is Warlock Punch replaced by Dead-Man's Volley (and to remove Wizard's Foot in favor of something not obviously taken from Falcon pls???).

Earthquake Punch comes to mind on my end. In fact, I even brought up that attack at the Ganondorf thread.

 

[UltimateWario]

why not just keep the Warlock Punch?

Because there's literally no reason to press Neutral B with Ganon at any time ever.

Also, while Ganon is a brute, the Falcon Punch is Cap's thing. It doesn't need to be replicated anywhere else.

 

[TheTuninator]

I think Tetra is an intelligent prediction. I do wonder if the early reveal of Toon Link might hint towards Toon Zelda and/or Tetra.

I'm actually leaning toward Sakurai trolling us all and revealing Toon Zelda/Phantom Knight as a tag team.

Sakurai revealed the Phantom Knight in one of Zelda's screenshots, but has never clarified the role of the character despite obviously being aware of the confusion he caused. Phantom Knight makes just as much sense as Tetra when considering partners for Toon Zelda, and has the added benefit of being a very stark transformation (light magic user to super-heavyweight physical brawler) while the difference between Toon Zelda and Tetra would probably be less pronounced.

 

[ChikoLad]

1: Paper Mario is known for being MADE OF PAPER, so his moveset should be about paper, not using that would be like Link not using his sword.
2: Popularity and uniqueness are way more important than relevancy, or else we would've gotten ryu.


Fixed

Paper Mario does not do much with the fact he is made out of paper. It's a cosmetic effect.

And Smash Bros High School AU's are not the real version of how Smash operates.

 

[UltimateWario]

Bleck...Toon Zelda.

I would take Pac-Man over Toon Zelda any day, and that's saying something.

 

[False Sense]

...I'm not being rude. If you are somehow interpreting me as rude, then you're being oversensitive. You tried to incorrectly tell me what my argument was and I corrected you. How is that rude?

As for the rest of your post:

1) Thar point about "Other characters can use electricity" and what not is flawed. And to demonstrate - why suggest a character based on their one dimension related ability (BTW, 2D to 3D flipping would not work in the Smash engine), when there is a character who has many? That's like saying Sonic should wield a sword this time around because he's done so in one game, and that he should get in over a character who always uses a sword. Pikachu is known for electricity (and is the Pokemon mascot). Of course he's the series rep.

Paper Mario is known for being Mario drawn differently. Just because he's got one or two things Mario doesn't otherwise have, doesn't mean he's properly distinct. And if those things are done better by other characters (who are actually distinct AS characters), then he loses all merit. Don't try to side step this fact just because Paper Mario can do one or two things Mario doesn't normally do.

2) Relevancy is not more important than merit and appeal. Rosalina was only truly relevant in one game's plot.

I was talking about your behavior to Saturn being rude. Not your responses to me.

1.) Actually, I think this argument has a couple of holes in it. Dimension flipping was one example. It's not the only way Paper Mario can be unique. Keep in mind that the Paper Mario set of games is a smaller series compared to that of Sonic or regular Mario games, so pulling specific abilities from individual games that didn't appear in others is more acceptable. That, and using an ability used only in one game is already not an issue. Mario uses F.L.U.D.D despite that only being in one game. So, logically, Paper Mario should have no trouble using an ability that only appeared in one of his games. It doesn't have to be his whole moveset, either. It could just be a special move to give him some interesting diversity. And he has plenty of other abilities to use.

Also, I would say that Paper Mario is known for his paper based abilities like other characters are known for their own abilities. He DOES have his own unique abilities that make him distinct from regular Mario. And I don't think that's a "fact" that he loses all merit if some of his abilities could be done better by characters that theoretically, and likely won't, make it onto the roster in the first place. I would like to see evidence that proves that as fact, and not just an opinion you think is fact.

2.) I would say Paper Mario does have merit and appeal; the fact that people want(ed) him is indication of that. And to be fair, Rosalina made quite a few appearances after her debut, including Galaxy 2, quite a few spin offs, and a playable appearance in Super Mario 3D World.

Paper Mario does not do much with the fact he is made out of paper. It's a cosmetic effect.

...No, a lot of the gameplay revolves around the fact that Mario is made out of paper, and is therefore foldable and flat.

 

[Opossum]

I don't see why people want Dead Man's Volley or how it would even function considering you need a special ability to deflect energy based attacks and it would require both players to remain in the same spot and participate and not get bored of a game of stalemate.

I don't see what's so much more interesting about another energy based ball. Assuming it functions the same as others (which I do assume) why not just keep the Warlock Punch?

One way it could work is if after pressing the B to release the orb, pressing it again after it is in the field makes Ganondorf do a smack that has extremely high priority to send it back, effectively eliminating the chance of it hitting himself if the player is skilled enough. That'd be kinda neat.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

I can think of the energy ball as being a slow projectile, but also more powerful than most others. Furthermore, it could be aimed in any direction, making it useful for trying to keep others from recovering. And when it comes to reflecting the attack, make it so that it would only be deflected with a sweetspot (and shields perhaps). That's how I think it would and should work.

 

[Substitution]

Paper Mario does not do much with the fact he is made out of paper. It's a cosmetic effect.

You know, there are other attacks he has.
Like a hammer, a shell, throw in an item or two.
Heck, I'd settle for a semi-clone.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Ganondorf discussion? Time to dig up the ole' moveset.

[collapse=Decloned Ganon]
Standard Attacks
Jab- Single strong thrust like in Brawl, but can be charged by holding down the button, resulting in a mini-Warlock Punch.
Combo- Continues from his jab with continuous sword stabs for as long as the button is mashed. This cannot be performed if the jab was charged.
FTilt- Same as in Brawl, performs a Sparta kick, angle-able like in Project M.
UTilt- A dark uppercut, similar to Snake's Project M UTilt.
DTilt- Same as in Brawl, but with added dark magic effects.
Dash- Same shoulder bash as Brawl, but with an added sword swipe quickly afterwards.

Smash Attacks
Forward- A two part attack, does his elbow bash as in Brawl, but then swings out with a wide sword strike upon a second press of the button.
Up- Swings his sword upwards and ends in a thrust like Marth's Up Smash, has a dark electrical effect as a callback to Demise.
Down- Does his own small version of Link's spin attack, swiping his sword in a low spin. Leaves a dark trail that causes damage. Functions the same as his previous down smash.

Arials
Nair- Spins around swinging his sword, covers himself in damaging dark magic.
Fair- Swings his sword forward in a downward arch.
Bair- Swings his sword back with a dark magic effect and then kicks once.
Uair- Same as in Brawl.
Dair- Same as in Brawl.

Specials
Neutral- Dead Man's Volley: A projectile attack that can be controlled similarly to Din's Fire on the initial release, but can only be charged while Ganondorf is holding it. It can be reflected back with attacks, but will still cause damage if it hits shields, this can lead to the classic "tennis match" between Ganondorf and an opponent. Has slight homing properties.
Side- Dark Choke: Same as in Brawl, but with added armour frames, can be canceled into a kick similar to Wizard's Foot by holding the button.
Down- Warlock Slam: A similar move to Wizard's Foot in the air, it causes Ganondorf to slam down to the ground with a kick. On the ground, he will stomp the ground and slam down his hand with a shockwave that can stun enemies.
Up- Gerudo Dragon: An upgraded version of Ganondorf's previous recovery, he will still perform the dark uppercut if he misses and will still grab when he hits, but the height of his leap is greatly increased and ends in a slight hover.
Final Smash- Beast Ganon: Ganondorf transforms into his dark beast form which is now controllable this time, it lasts about as long as Giga Bowser in Brawl. His sword attacks are now replaced with trident strikes while his other attacks are replaced with ramming attacks. His special attacks are changed to reflect his beastly form:
Neutral- A stronger version of the Dead Man's Volley that doesn't need a charge and won't be reflected back at Ganon, but only dissipates if attacked or reflected.
Side- A charging ram, similar to the movement his original final smash from Brawl did.
Down- Slams the ground, burying opponents.
Up- A giant leap that causes Ganon to fly off-screen before slamming back down with a shockwave. [/collapse]
Everything from keeping a good amount of punches and kicks, some moves doubling into sword strikes, the obligatory Dead Man's Volley, and even controllable Ganon as a final smash.

 

[ChikoLad]

I was talking about your behavior to Saturn being rude. Not your responses to me.

1.) Actually, I think this argument has a couple of holes in it. Dimension flipping was one example. It's not the only way Paper Mario can be unique. Keep in mind that the Paper Mario set of games is a smaller series compared to that of Sonic or regular Mario games, so pulling specific abilities from individual games that didn't appear in others is more acceptable. That, and using an ability used only in one game is already not an issue. Mario uses F.L.U.D.D despite that only being in one game. So, logically, Paper Mario should have no trouble using an ability that only appeared in one of his games. It doesn't have to be his whole moveset, either. It could just be a special move to give him some interesting diversity. And he has plenty of other abilities to use.

Also, I would say that Paper Mario is known for his paper based abilities like other characters are known for their own abilities. He DOES have his own unique abilities that make him distinct from regular Mario. And I don't think that's a "fact" that he loses all merit if some of his abilities could be done better by characters that theoretically, and likely won't, make it onto the roster in the first place. I would like to see evidence that proves that as fact, and not just an opinion you think is fact.

2.) I would say Paper Mario does have merit and appeal; the fact that people want(ed) him is indication of that. And to be fair, Rosalina made quite a few appearances after her debut, including Galaxy 2, quite a few spin offs, and a playable appearance in Super Mario 3D World.



...No, a lot of the gameplay revolves around the fact that Mario is made out of paper, and is therefore foldable and flat.

My attitude to Saturn wasn't rude, I told it like it was. If I didn't do that, I would be being disrespectful.

I've already told you how your uniqueness arguments fall flat. Stop side stepping. Again.

Rosalina's only truly significant role was Galaxy, she was minor elsewhere. This is coming from a guy who would literally marry the character if she were real. :V

Paper Mario is an RPG. It hardly does anything with the Paper outside of visual effects and art style.

 

[TheLastJinjo]

I still believe some characters can be exempt from being clones. Like Paper Mario and Mach Rider (though Mach Rider is just my bias)

Because there's literally no reason to press Neutral B with Ganon at any time ever.

No idea what you're talking about, but isn't it best to fix things rather then remove them?

 

[The Nerd]

I'm more in favor of removing Warlock Punch for Dead-Man's Volley because of how iconic the move is.
A character's neutral special is generally something that character they are iconic for, and practically every variation of Ganon has used Dead-Man's Volley in some form.

Tennis matches would also be a great party trick too, maybe even a mini-game of it's own.

You make a fair point, and while I would miss the frustrated cry of those who just fell into one of my punches courtesy of another 'friend' I can always do that to a lesser extent with Captain Falcon. I hope if they remove Ganondorf's punch they buff Falcon's a bit. Brawl's Falcon Punch felt lackluster. A tennis match could indeed be a fun thing, but I'm wondering about how often it would happen. I mean, in theory any characters with projectiles + reflectors can have a tennis match but that never seems to happen. Sure, the volley could by implemented significantly differently, but given how fast past and movement-oriented the game is I have a hard time imagining the tennis match. Maybe that's just my limited imagination though.

Also, Saturn; I don't normally like to argue but Mach Rider is one thing I will vehemently defend; the premise of him being a clone is absurd to me. Not disagreeing with you, just throwing it out there that him being a clone is hilariously foolish.

 

[False Sense]

@ ChikoLad I'm assuming you meant to say something there?

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

As far as clones go I can't imagine Sakurai planning on adding a clone at the beginning of development. The only clones to do that were Luigi and Lucas. Luigi was probably added because of how important of a character he was, and since there wasn't anything differentiating Luigi from Mario back then Sakurai had no choice but to make him a clone. As for Lucas he was going to strait up replace Ness in Melee, so he technically wouldn't have been a clone then, and when Brawl came along it seemed that he still wanted to add Lucas, but no longer wanted to cut Ness, so that's why he was planned from the beginning. Every other clone character was planned later in development, so now the only way I can see a character being a clone is if they're a last minute addition.

 

[Substitution]

As far as clones go I can't imagine Sakurai planning on adding a clone at the beginning of development. The only clones to do that were Luigi and Lucas. Luigi was probably added because of how important of a character he was, and since there wasn't anything differentiating Luigi from Mario back then Sakurai had no choice but to make him a clone. As for Lucas he was going to strait up replace Ness in Melee, so he technically wouldn't have been a clone then, and when Brawl came along it seemed that he still wanted to add Lucas, but no longer wanted to cut Ness, so that's why he was planned from the beginning. Every other clone character was planned later in development, so now the only way I can see a character being a clone is if they're a last minute addition.

But Lucas isn't a clone.
And Luigi became his own character in Brawl.

 

[False Sense]

My attitude to Saturn wasn't rude, I told it like it was. If I didn't do that, I would be being disrespectful.

I've already told you how your uniqueness arguments fall flat. Stop side stepping. Again.

Rosalina's only truly significant role was Galaxy, she was minor elsewhere. This is coming from a guy who would literally marry the character if she were real. :V

Paper Mario is an RPG. It hardly does anything with the Paper outside of visual effects and art style.

I get the feeling we're not going to get anywhere here... If you're only going to respond to my counterarguments and examples that point out holes in your argument with "your arguments fall flat," rather than actually explaining why my argument fall flat, I guess we're done here. Pity, I was hoping to reach a more satisfying and enlightening solution to this.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

But Lucas isn't a clone.
And Luigi became his own character in Brawl.

A character who's moveset is based on another character. Happy? Luigi was a clone in the 1st game, which the point I was trying to make with him.

 

[UltimateWario]

But Lucas isn't a clone.
And Luigi became his own character in Brawl.

Well, Lucas still (entirely unnecessarily) shares several similarities among his specials, and Luigi was a clone on the 64, where he was likely planned from the beginning.