Character Discussion Thread

[Morbi]

Even if he was requested a lot pre-Brawl, popularity probably wasn't a huge deal before Brawl, as a lot of characters who were popular were also very important characters. And Brawl's roster was decided a year before it was even announced.

Another thing: Subspace Emissary. Most of the work done for Brawl was spent making it. Considering the difficulty of making Ridley, the many other higher-priority characters before him, and the emphasis Sakurai wanted to put on the SSE, he probably thought that Ridley's role as a boss (two bosses, actually) was a big deal and a suitable substitute for playable status.

If that was true, it would insinuate that Sakurai was actually aware of his demand and importance, aware of the expectations. Of course, he could just be oblivious, that wouldn't necessarily surprise me.

 

[Arcanir]

He was relevant, important and popular back during Brawl too, yet Sakurai didn't even consider the idea of making him a character. That says a lot to me.

Look, I want Ridley too, he'd be completely badass, but you shouldn't get your hopes up about him. Nobody should. There's a good chance he'll never be a character in these games. Ever. Just expect the worst and if he does get added you can run out into the streets naked and tell the world that he's in or something.

On top of what Golden said, that same argument can be used for characters like King K. Rool, he was relevant back then and very popular but was skipped nonetheless and is still very supported. That also goes for characters like Diddy and King Dedede who missed the boat once despite being very popular choices but got in later on.

Missing one game does not doom a character, if Sakurai feels on revisit that they bring enough, he will still make the characters playable.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

What's up?

 

[Vez]

Of course, he could just be oblivious, that wouldn't necessarily surprise me.

"It is said that the cosmos is beneath Rosalina's gown."

 

[Kenith]

If that was true, it would insinuate that Sakurai was actually aware of his demand and importance, aware of the expectations. Of course, he could just be oblivious, that wouldn't necessarily surprise me.

What I meant was that demand wasn't really a factor. He would most definitely see that Ridley was important back then, but think he was better suited as a boss, since Brawl had a story mode with bosses.

Now, this game is almost certain to have no bosses, and is confirmed not to have a story mode, so Sakurai might think Ridley being playable would be the most appropriate solution.

 

[Morbi]

What I meant was that demand wasn't really a factor. He would most definitely see that Ridley was important back then, but think he was better suited as a boss, since Brawl had a story mode with bosses.

Now, this game is almost certain to have no bosses, and is confirmed not to have a story mode, so Sakurai might think Ridley being playable would be the most appropriate solution.

Yes, I see what you are getting at; however, if he included him as a boss twice to compensate for something... say his demand... that would insinuate that he was entirely aware that Ridley would have been seen as an essential (as he was/is).

 

[Kenith]

Yes, I see what you are getting at; however, if he included him as a boss twice to compensate for something... say his demand... that would insinuate that he was entirely aware that Ridley would have been seen as an essential (as he was/is).

Exactly. And seeing as he most likely won't be an Assist Trophy now...

 

[Morbi]

Exactly. And seeing as he most likely won't be an Assist Trophy now...

Yes, yes, I see what you are getting at.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

Remind me why Mother Brain automatically destroys the possibility of any more Metroid ATs.

 

[Morbi]

Remind me why Mother Brain automatically destroys the possibility of any more Metroid ATs.

I haven't heard that one as of current. Obviously that is some fallacious arbitrary assertion, the notion was most likely construed by some desperate Ridley supporter.

 

[Vez]

On top of what Golden said, that same argument can be used for characters like King K. Rool, he was relevant back then and very popular but was skipped nonetheless and is still very supported. That also goes for characters like Diddy and King Dedede who missed the boat once despite being very popular choices but got in later on.

Missing one game does not doom a character, if Sakurai feels on revisit that they bring enough, he will still make the characters playable.

Melee was incredibly rushed. We already know he was considering King Dedede and Wario for it. Diddy is an odd one as he didn't even have a trophy (yet Dixie and K. Rool did? Just what?), so I think his problem was the whole Rare deal. Maybe due to Diddy Kong Racing Nintendo weren't entirely sure whether they owned the character or not? I've absolutely no idea.

I don't think Ridley is "doomed", I'm just not expecting him. K. Rool did have solid support back then but he rose in popularity a lot afterwards when he didn't appear in Returns. I think people are worried that he'll fall into irrelevance if he isn't playable in these games.

 

[Arcanir]

I haven't heard that one as of current. Obviously that is some fallacious arbitrary assertion, the notion was most likely construed by some desperate Ridley supporter.

I haven't heard any Ridley supporters use that, the closest I've heard is someone on Gamefaqs speculating that if the Metroid AT returns that'll probably cap it off if we don't get 3 per series.

 

[Kenith]

Remind me why Mother Brain automatically destroys the possibility of any more Metroid ATs.

I never said that. But assuming the Metroid AT comes back, which I find very likely, I can't see them adding so many Metroid assists.
Remember, each series got only one in Brawl (except for Mario, of course)

 

[Venus of the Desert Bloom]

Let's talk about characters and not about the Mother Brain AT.

*:.｡..｡.:*･'(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)'･*:.｡. .｡.:*･

What are the chances that we could see both Ridley and Dark Samus? Would you think them as good or bad?

 

[Rebellious Treecko]

Remind me why Mother Brain automatically destroys the possibility of any more Metroid ATs.

Because apparently only the Mario series can have more than one AT.

Melee was incredibly rushed. We already know he was considering King Dedede and Wario for it. Diddy is an odd one as he didn't even have a trophy (yet Dixie and K. Rool did? Just what?), so I think his problem was the whole Rare deal. Maybe due to Diddy Kong Racing Nintendo weren't entirely sure whether they owned the character or not? I've absolutely no idea.

Melee was rushed?
The reason why the clones existed was because Sakurai had some extra time and decided it would be better to make 6 clone characters than make one unique character. (King Dedede)

Also, Wario was going to be a Mario clone, but Sakurai thought "he deserved better" than to be a clone. Glad he decided to wait and make him unique. You might already know this, though.

Let's talk about characters and not about the Mother Brain AT.

*:.｡..｡.:*･'(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)'･*:.｡. .｡.:*･

What are the chances that we could see both Ridley and Dark Samus? Would you think them as good or bad?

I'd love it, but it's pretty slim. Maybe 0.5%

What would be even better would be Ridley, Dark Samus, and Sylux. The main villain, the villain of the Prime series, and one of Samus's main rivals. (although he was only in one game)

-----

 

[Deleted member]

I am not entirely sure if that was directed at me, probably not (as I didn't insinuate that he wouldn't be considered). However, your last notion really bothered me. Sakurai had "no reason" to consider Metroid's main antagonist? I don't agree with that sentiment, especially as he had somewhat of a following after the Melee opening fiasco. I am not saying that he needed to be at the top of Sakurai's mind, but at the very least, he should have been considered.

It wasn't.
It was directed at the statement Kana made.

And aside from that, no, Sakurai had no reason to consider him when you actually think about it from a logical standpoint.
Ridley did not have a huge following (especially not in Japan) until Brawl was shown off at E3 2006, a year after Sakurai already decided on the characters. He may have had some following in the US, but it wasn't anything comparable to now.
It also wouldn't be until just recently (about a year before characters were being decided) that Ridley's status as more than just a recurring boss would be known, as the backstory about him orphaning Samus and their deep history did not come to light until Zero Mission's release, or more specifically, the prequel e-manga that would come with it.

And, sad as it may be, given that Ridley generally was portrayed as a large flying monster since Prime, it is highly probable that Ridley wasn't given much thought in regards to feasibility.
So, lack of huge following, perceived infeasibility, and not terribly notable until just recently? Add to the fact that Sakurai pretty much said there was no consideration for him to be playable in Brawl, and it's pretty glaring why he wouldn't have been.


But......now is different. Ridley's got a grander following now that's even notable to the general Japanese, Sakurai is aware he is wanted and now has the seeds of gameplay concept planted in his head, and Ridley is in damn near every Metroid title now in some form. It's now that Ridley has his big chance.




On another note,
You bring up the "Melee opening fiasco"; are you referring to the E3 2001 showing of Melee? I do not recall Sakurai being present at the event, and considering that people were cheering when Samus showed up in the general gameplay portion of the trailer, it could easily have been taken as "Samus is a really popular character in America" and no thoughts about how America liked Ridley popped up since Samus was also present during the Ridley scene of the opening portion.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I'm going to post my response to the Anna discussion that i've seen. Just got home.

 

[Louie G.]

I think Mother Brain pushed him out of his only possible role in the game outside of being a normal trophy honestly. It's most likely Ridley or bust, the only other realistic option I see is if they're pulling a Wolf and make Dark Samus, and even that is a bit of a stretch.

I wouldn't mind that.
Along with the inclusion of Ridley, obviously.
It's a shame that Sakurai doesn't give much attention to the Prime series.

You bring up the "Melee opening fiasco"; are you referring to the E3 2001 showing of Melee? I do not recall Sakurai being present at the event, and considering that people were cheering when Samus showed up in the general gameplay portion of the trailer, it could easily have been taken as "Samus is a really popular character in America" and no thoughts about how America liked Ridley popped up since Samus was also present during the Ridley scene of the opening portion.

I was always under the impression that everyone thought Ridley was playable, but Samus DID get the most applause out of any character, so it could go either way.

 

[Kenith]

Let's talk about characters and not about the Mother Brain AT.
*:.｡..｡.:*･'(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)'･*:.｡. .｡.:*･
What are the chances that we could see both Ridley and Dark Samus? Would you think them as good or bad?

Well, technically, we're using it to determine Ridley's chances as a character.

And I think Dark Samus as a Wolf-like samus clone would be neat.

 

[Vez]

Melee was rushed?
The reason why the clones existed was because Sakurai had some extra time and decided it would be better to make 6 clone characters than make one unique character. (King Dedede)

...So I'm right? He padded the roster out with clones because he didn't have the time to add a bunch of fully original characters.

 

[Cpt.]

Let's talk about characters and not about the Mother Brain AT.

*:.｡..｡.:*･'(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)'･*:.｡. .｡.:*･

What are the chances that we could see both Ridley and Dark Samus? Would you think them as good or bad?

That sparkly sprite!

I think that there is not much chance of getting both Dark Samus and Ridley, I don't even see too much chance of getting Dark Samus nothing above the 30% range. That being said I would absolutely LOVE to have both.

 

[Depressed Gengar]

I never said that. But assuming the Metroid AT comes back, which I find very likely, I can't see them adding so many Metroid assists.
Remember, each series got only one in Brawl (except for Mario, of course)

So then I was just misinterpreting things. My bad.

 

[Cpt.]

Well, technically, we're using it to determine Ridley's chances as a character.

And I think Dark Samus as a Wolf-like samus clone would be neat.

Dark Samus wouldn't be a wolf-like clone really. I guess in the sense that some of its attacks looks similar, but they would be pretty darn different.

 

[Arcanir]

Melee was incredibly rushed. We already know he was considering King Dedede and Wario for it. Diddy is an odd one as he didn't even have a trophy (yet Dixie and K. Rool did? Just what?), so I think his problem was the whole Rare deal. Maybe due to Diddy Kong Racing Nintendo weren't entirely sure whether they owned the character or not? I've absolutely no idea.

I don't think Ridley is "doomed", I'm just not expecting him. K. Rool did have solid support back then but he rose in popularity a lot afterwards when he didn't appear in Returns. I think people are worried that he'll fall it irrelevance if he doesn't appear in these games.

Fair enough on King Dedede, but Diddy still stands as regardless he was completely ignored in Melee, even the Rare deal shouldn't have prevented a trophy at least due to King K. Rool and Dixie being present. His absence in one game despite being an important and popular character to DK does show that missing one game doesn't prevent you from getting in later.

King K. Rool was also a very popular choice back then, behind Diddy yes, but he was still one of the big characters people supported. In fact, there's more pessimism around the character now for some because he missed Returns and Dixie had a (more at least) apparent role ahead of him in TF so people think she's more likely to get in over him.

Let's talk about characters and not about the Mother Brain AT.
*:.｡..｡.:*･'(*ﾟ▽ﾟ*)'･*:.｡. .｡.:*･
What are the chances that we could see both Ridley and Dark Samus? Would you think them as good or bad?

It's probably not likely as Prime's ignored but I'd like to see both in, Dark Samus was a cool character from the subseries and she brings enough to differentiate herself even if she borrows from Samus' template.

 

[Kenith]

Dark Samus wouldn't be a wolf-like clone really. I guess in the sense that some of its attacks looks similar, but they would be pretty darn different.

You mean like Wolf?

 

[Morbi]

It wasn't.
It was directed at the statement Kana made.

And aside from that, no, Sakurai had no reason to consider him when you actually think about it from a logical standpoint.
Ridley did not have a huge following (especially not in Japan) until Brawl was shown off at E3 2006, a year after Sakurai already decided on the characters. He may have had some following in the US, but it wasn't anything comparable to now.
It also wouldn't be until just recently (about a year before characters were being decided) that Ridley's status as more than just a recurring boss would be known, as the backstory about him orphaning Samus and their deep history did not come to light until Zero Mission's release, or more specifically, the prequel e-manga that would come with it.

And, sad as it may be, given that Ridley generally was portrayed as a large flying monster since Prime, it is highly probable that Ridley wasn't given much thought in regards to feasibility.
So, lack of huge following, perceived infeasibility, and not terribly notable until just recently? Add to the fact that Sakurai pretty much said there was no consideration for him to be playable in Brawl, and it's pretty glaring why he wouldn't have been.


But......now is different. Ridley's got a grander following now that's even notable to the general Japanese, Sakurai is aware he is wanted and now has the seeds of gameplay concept planted in his head, and Ridley is in damn near every Metroid title now in some form. It's now that Ridley has his big chance.




On another note,
You bring up the "Melee opening fiasco"; are you referring to the E3 2001 showing of Melee? I do not recall Sakurai being present at the event, and considering that people were cheering when Samus showed up in the general gameplay portion of the trailer, it could easily have been taken as "Samus is a really popular character in America" and no thoughts about how America liked Ridley popped up since Samus was also present during the Ridley scene of the opening portion.

Objectively asserting that Sakurai had literally no reason to consider Ridley is fallacious. I would assume that it is inherently obvious as to why it is erroneous to make absolute statements in regards to another individuals intent. So I will leave it at that.

I wasn't aware that a character needed a huge following to be considered. I do agree with your sentiment, perhaps he wasn't interpreted as feasible. That does not; however, mean that he wasn't considered.

Again, I am not necessarily debating that he should have been in. I am merely asserting that he was more likely than not, considered.

No, I just called it a fiasco because I wanted to use the word. I just meant the opening sequence in general, it put Ridley on the map in a Smash relevant context.

 

[Deleted member]

...So I'm right? He padded the roster out with clones because he didn't have the time to add a bunch of fully original characters.

No.
It was clones or nothing.

Original plan called for just the non-clones. Sakurai has a little extra development time when the other characters are finished, decides that people might want more, and makes the clones.

Melee was not rushed.

 

[Cpt.]

You mean like Wolf?

I mean Dark Samus wouldn't really be Samus:Dark Samus as Fox:Wolf

 

[Kenith]

No.
It was clones or nothing.

Original plan called for just the non-clones. Sakurai has a little extra development time when the other characters are finished, decides that people might want more, and makes the clones.

Melee was not rushed.

I was always led to believe he said something about one original character taking the time of six clones...?

 

[Vez]

No.
It was clones or nothing.

Original plan called for just the non-clones. Sakurai has a little extra development time when the other characters are finished, decides that people might want more, and makes the clones.

Melee was not rushed.

It was tossed out in like 13 months, man. Most games take at least two years to make. Maybe my memory is foggy but I remember him stating during the beginning of Brawl development that he didn't want the same thing to happen again.

 

[Kenith]

I mean Dark Samus wouldn't really be Samus:Dark Samus as Fox:Wolf

So...like...Wolf?

 

[Deleted member]

Objectively asserting that Sakurai had literally no reason to consider Ridley is fallacious. I would assume that it is inherently obvious as to why it is erroneous to make absolute statements in regards to another individuals intent. So I will leave it at that.

Fair enough.

I wasn't aware that a character needed a huge following to be considered. I do agree with your sentiment, perhaps he wasn't interpreted as feasible. That does not; however, mean that he wasn't considered.

A character doesn't need a "huge" following to be considered, but one would certainly give Sakurai reason to overlook issues he wouldn't overlook if no one wanted the character.
Especially for a franchise that doesn't get many requests for characters, and the most notable request at the time is a flying limbless parasite with teeth.

Again, I am not necessarily debating that he should have been in. I am merely asserting that he was more likely than not, considered.

You are asserting something Sakurai confirmed opposite.

No, I just called it a fiasco because I wanted to use the word. I just meant the opening sequence in general, it put Ridley on the map in a Smash relevant context.

In America.

Not in Japan.

 

[OcarinaOfDoom]

I was always led to believe he said something about one original character taking the time of six clones...?

He could of made 1 original character or 6 clones but he decided to make the 6 clones.

 

[Deleted member]

It was tossed out in like 13 months, man. Most games take at least two years to make. Maybe my memory is foggy but I remember him stating during the beginning of Brawl development that he didn't want the same thing to happen again.

Still doesn't mean the clones were a product of rushing.

They were literally a product of extra time. It was them or nothing.

 

[Morbi]

Fair enough.



A character doesn't need a "huge" following to be considered, but one would certainly give Sakurai reason to overlook issues he wouldn't overlook if no one wanted the character.
Especially for a franchise that doesn't get many requests for characters, and the most notable request at the time is a flying limbless parasite with teeth.


You are asserting something Sakurai confirmed opposite.


In America.

Not in Japan.

I feel as though I am using the literal definition of the word "considered." Not the practical application of the definition ascribed to Smash. I apologize.

No offense, but the Japanese consumer-base is not nearly as important (obviously it is to Sakurai, which is what you are getting at, but honestly, when it comes down to it; Ridley will be included based on his popularity in the West). His appearance did; however, give him Smash relevance, even if it wasn't perceived as such. Even in Japan.

 

[Kenith]

There are a lot of things that are way more popular in the West though.

Like Zelda.

 

[Will]

I don't think Mother Brain supports Ridley, The first thing you see after this is "ERMAGERD RIDLEY'S CHANCES ARE BIGGERS!" but I disagree,it's just showing off a nice metroid assist. We still don't know what the stage hazard is,but I'm 50% sure it's Ridley. If it isn't,I say Nightmare or Phantoon if Ridley does make it in.

 

[Kenith]

I don't think Mother Brain supports Ridley, The first thing you see after this is "ERMAGERD RIDLEY'S CHANCES ARE BIGGERS!" but I disagree,it's just showing off a nice metroid assist. We still don't know what the stage hazard is,but I'm 50% sure it's Ridley. If it isn't,I say Nightmare or Phantoon if Ridley does make it in.

It seems trivial to have Pyrosphere as a stage where Ridley is the only noteworthy thing about it in Other M.

So that makes me somewhat worried for him.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The stage hazard is lava.

It's a Metroid stage, you gotta have either lava or acid.

 

[Kenith]

The stage hazard is lava.

It's a Metroid stage, you gotta have either lava or acid.

I was thinking that too, that each Metroid stage is basically the same, it's just reskinned to fit the newest game.