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BaganSmashBros

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Remember that Mega Man is a guest character and was designed specifically to reflect his 8-bit days.
I meant how different in the game that guy was from box art.
Also remember that Brawl Ridley uses the Super Metroid artwork design (with a purple palette) rather than a design based off the in-game sprite.
Oh, right.
There's a problem with this idea;
Both Mewtwo have encountered Ash at some point (the 2nd not prior to the Genesect movie). Why would the first Mewtwo randomly decide to change his voice to that of a female and completely act like he doesn't know Ash (when Ash clearly recognizes who he thinks is the same Mewtwo he's met before) while taking steps BACK in his character development to be absolutely distrusting of humans (to the point he coldly brushes off Ash and his current companions while only expressing concern for the safety of their Pokémon when he protects them from the Genesect) and believing he doesn't belong in the world after already determining he does after Mewtwo Returns? All while having the ability to Mega Evolve at will due to experimentation that never happened in the First Movie because Mewtwo blew up the lab before any tests could be done?

Seriously. There's too many plotholes that form if you try to claim they are one and the same, and the director of the movie even acknowledged it was a different Mewtwo.
Different continuity? That removes all plotholes. But if the guy behind it all said thats was a different one, then whatever. And how exactly can Ash remember first Mewtwo? Didn't he erased himself from his memory before leaving?
.....and?
This means that they were not able to use those two as sources anyhow. So, they had only 1st Mewtwo and Mewtwo from games, but those are very hard to use since they are RPGs and don't show pokemons moving outside of idle animations.
And you're right; Pokémon don't really fly away from their opponents' reach in-battle whenever they feel like it in the games.
So why would Mewtwo in Smash?
Because he can and he doesn't seems to be kind of guy to limit himself?
He's certainly more "buff" than the others. There's a reason he has the nickname "Roidley".
But he is not top-heavy unless just having long and kinda bulky arms already counts as this. Others are more top-heavy than him thanks to their weird hump part of torso (only Ridley-X seems to lack it, but he isn't Ridley and never should be counted as such). And i don't get where did that nickname came from. He just has bulky arms and legs, but everything else is thin (as in bones are visible and not as in not wide).
So, just because she looks like a brain (though is more spherical in shape) makes her realistic? Yet, she's actually an AI supercomputer designed to look like a brain. This is what I'm getting at. There's nothing realistic about her.
If looking like something was all it took to be "realistic", then no matter what, Ridley is fine as long as he resembles a dragon. But the reality is there's nothing "realistic" about any of his designs.
Yes. And in Other M, pretty much everything looks organic and realistic. Other M Ridley's design is realistic outside of his extendable tail. Limb-neck is weird, but it looks...er...wide...large...whatever enough for him to actually be able to eat anything. MP3 Ridleys also look realistic since they don't have that pecil-thin neck, but its hard to tell since they are cyborgs and we never see organic versions of them.
So it's specifically the wyvern-esque design of Ridley-2 you have an issue with. Understandable.
Mostly that. Just doesn't looks right when he was shown as normal kind of dragon (IMO, more like a mutated xenomorph with different neck, head and with wings, but whatever) before.
 
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arguments time ! see if character arguments are valid or trash
rules: nothing obviously valid or obviously trash NOTE: this doesn't mean all arguments are trash

Ice Climbers can only be Popo AND Nana, so Popo with a Nana alt can't get in: TRASH Sakurai never said anything about them having to be one entity, they'd return to normal in the next game (if console exclusive)

Captain Toad can't jump, TRASH the devs can make him jump or make a heavyweight jump

Bandana Dee can't get in because Kirby is undeserving, TRASH lots of smash was taken from Kirby so Kirby is probably one of the most deserving franchises
Generic, TRASH Bandana fought regular Dees in RtD, and ROB fought undistinguished ROBs

Goku is anime, VALID Sakurai said only video game characters
Except the majority of the fanbase doesnt want just popo.

Ice climbers are plural for a reason. There are 2. And there should be 2. No reason to ruin a veteran so they can come back a game early.

So solo popo
1. Pisses most people off
2. Makes old ice climbers players either lose their main again or are forced to awkwardly adapt to a playstlye nothing like the last because there entire gimmick and playstlye is gone.

Or they coiuld just wait and not alienate anyone.
 

Diddy Kong

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I think most Ice Climber fans would take SoPo. Something is better than nothing.
 

BaganSmashBros

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Ice Climbers can only be Popo AND Nana, so Popo with a Nana alt can't get in: TRASH Sakurai never said anything about them having to be one entity, they'd return to normal in the next game (if console exclusive)
Who the f*** wants Popo and/or Nana outside of very rare cases? People want Ice Climbers. They were the most unique characters and i personally think they still remain such. Rosalina isn't same because she does not completly depeds on Luma and you can't pull out s**t as impressive as what IC do.
IC are liked in Smash not because they are from Ice Climbers game or because of who exactly they are. They are liked because of how they were done as fighters.
I think most Ice Climber fans would take SoPo. Something is better than nothing.
REALLY doubt it. It would pretty much be Dedede 0.1 without all of that range and weight. As i said before, Ice Climbers are not liked because of who they are. They are liked because of how they were done ad SoPo will get rid of what made them popular and just unique. Same goes for Captain Falcon.
Pretty much exact opposite of Ganondorf, who is liked mostly because he is Ganondorf. And dem boots.
 
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ElPanandero

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Who the f*** wants Popo and/or Nana outside of very rare cases? People want Ice Climbers. They were the most unique characters and i personally think they still remain such. Rosalina isn't same because she does not completly depeds on Luma and you can't pull out s**t as impressive as what IC do.
IC are liked in Smash not because they are from Ice Climbers game or because of who exactly they are. They are liked because of how they were done as fighters.

REALLY doubt it. It would pretty much be Dedede 0.1 without all of that range and weight. As i said before, Ice Climbers are not liked because of who they are. They are liked because of how they were done ad SoPo will get rid of what made them popular and just unique. Same goes for Captain Falcon.
Pretty much exact opposite of Ganondorf, who is liked mostly because he is Ganondorf. And dem boots.
I'd play SoPo. Ice Climbers are my favorite melee character after Young Link, and even if it was just one of them, I'd still prefer it over 99% of the other possibilities for DLC
 

Diddy Kong

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I'd play SoPo. Ice Climbers are my favorite melee character after Young Link, and even if it was just one of them, I'd still prefer it over 99% of the other possibilities for DLC
I knew I wasn't talking bull****.
 

ElPanandero

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I knew I wasn't talking bull****.
I know some would probably hate it, but watch Wobbes or Fly play SoPo and you can see how dope they can still be. Espicially if they made some adjustments (new recovery) and compensated for the lack of nana. It wouldn't be ideal, but like you said, it would be better than nothing
 

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I think most Ice Climber fans would take SoPo. Something is better than nothing.
Sakurai wasn't willing to make Dr. Mario a costume due to how it would alienate fans of Dr. Mario from Melee, there's no way he'd only add Ice Climbers as SoPo, desroys what made the Climbers unique. If he was willing to add them as a single Climber, they'd have been in the base game.
 
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Burruni

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Would some Icies fans be okay with just having SoPo with 4 colors being Nana? Yes.

Would Icies mains be okay with it? Questionable.

Would it nullify the playstyle that they were designed for? Yes.
Has Sakurai ever overhauled a character's moveset to the point that their playstyle was truly changed? :4ganondorf: Not even with the pleading of fans for it.

Would Sakurai overhaul characters he hand-picked from a gimmick/playstyle they were chosen for by him? I don't see it.

That's my stance on the SoPo DLC front.
 

BaganSmashBros

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I knew I wasn't talking bull****.
One random guy liking it doesn't means everyone else will.
I'd play SoPo. Ice Climbers are my favorite melee character after Young Link, and even if it was just one of them, I'd still prefer it over 99% of the other possibilities for DLC
You didn't cared about their moveset then. Weird.
Would some Icies fans be okay with just having SoPo with 4 colors being Nana? Yes.

Would Icies mains be okay with it? Questionable.

Would it nullify the playstyle that they were designed for? Yes.
Has Sakurai ever overhauled a character's moveset to the point that their playstyle was truly changed? :4ganondorf: Not even with the pleading of fans for it.

Would Sakurai overhaul characters he hand-picked from a gimmick/playstyle they were chosen for by him? I don't see it.

That's my stance on the SoPo DLC front.
Its even worse since he said that characters with no future are low priority and IC have been kept alive and out of "oh yeah, those guys from that one game...what was its name again?" group only because of SSB.

Anyway, what would make SoPo worth making if, unless some unique gimmick is given to him like what Ice Climbers had, he would be inferiour version of Dedede, like Pichu was inferiour version of Pikachu (he was a clone, but thats not what matters)? Why inferiour? Well, Dedede has very high attack range (one of the highest in the game), multiple jumps, great vertical recovery thanks to his Up B, very high weight and Gordos. SoPo obviously can't suddenly get bigger, get very heavy, get very long hammer or multiple jumps without it getting ridicolous.
 
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ElPanandero

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One random guy liking it doesn't means everyone else will.

You didn't cared about their moveset then. Weird.

Its even worse since he said that characters with no future are low priority and IC have been kept alive and out of "oh yeah, those guys from that one game...what was its name again?" group only because of SSB.

Anyway, what would make SoPo worth making if, unless some unique gimmick is given to him like what Ice Climbers had, he would be inferiour version of Dedede, like Pichu was inferiour version of Pikachu (he was a clone, but thats not what matters)? Why inferiour? Well, Dedede has very high attack range (one of the highest in the game), multiple jumps, great vertical recovery thanks to his Up B, very high weight and Gordos. SoPo obviously can't suddenly get bigger, get very heavy, get very long hammer or multiple jumps without it getting ridicolous.
Wow a ridley fan being a **** for no reason and assuming to know anything about me? Weird.
I LOVE the Ice Climbers moveset in melee/brawl. It's my favorite gimmick in any smash bros ever, and I would love to see it back, they're the only character I would drop my main for.
But I'm not a bleeding heart idealist either. Sakuraui has said they don't work as is. They're never coming back the way they were, and I like the character, I like what SoPo does more than I like Ridley, or Banana Dee, or Shovel Knight, so when I say I wouldn't mind SoPo I'm not saying SoPo > Ice Climbers, I'm saying I can't have one and so I'd like the alternative over nothing and that in no way invalidates my feelings on the original Ice Climbers. So stop being an elitist ass who believes he has the right to tell others what they based on some internal god-complex that makes you blind to logical conclusions and sound reasoning.
 

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Sakurai wasn't willing to make Dr. Mario a costume due to how it would alienate fans of Dr. Mario.
Well that doesn't explain the Daisy and Dixie costumes.....which are just palette swaps.
 
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Burruni

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Well that doesn't explain the Daisy and Dixie costumes.....which are just palette swaps.
Actually, it does.

They're palette swaps, not full Alternate Costumes.

The way that Sakurai phrased things meant that Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit were all alternate costumes like Alph or the Koopalings and were later promoted to clone characters late in development.
 
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Wow a ridley fan being a **** for no reason and assuming to know anything about me? Weird.
I LOVE the Ice Climbers moveset in melee/brawl. It's my favorite gimmick in any smash bros ever, and I would love to see it back, they're the only character I would drop my main for.
But I'm not a bleeding heart idealist either. Sakuraui has said they don't work as is. They're never coming back the way they were, and I like the character, I like what SoPo does more than I like Ridley, or Banana Dee, or Shovel Knight, so when I say I wouldn't mind SoPo I'm not saying SoPo > Ice Climbers, I'm saying I can't have one and so I'd like the alternative over nothing and that in no way invalidates my feelings on the original Ice Climbers. So stop being an elitist *** who believes he has the right to tell others what they based on some internal god-complex that makes you blind to logical conclusions and sound reasoning.
talking about blind conclusion jumping immediately after stereotyping ridley fans and saying he is an elitist.
lol
 
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BaganSmashBros

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Wow a ridley fan being a **** for no reason and assuming to know anything about me? Weird.
I LOVE the Ice Climbers moveset in melee/brawl. It's my favorite gimmick in any smash bros ever, and I would love to see it back, they're the only character I would drop my main for.
But I'm not a bleeding heart idealist either. Sakuraui has said they don't work as is. They're never coming back the way they were, and I like the character, I like what SoPo does more than I like Ridley, or Banana Dee, or Shovel Knight, so when I say I wouldn't mind SoPo I'm not saying SoPo > Ice Climbers, I'm saying I can't have one and so I'd like the alternative over nothing and that in no way invalidates my feelings on the original Ice Climbers. So stop being an elitist *** who believes he has the right to tell others what they based on some internal god-complex that makes you blind to logical conclusions and sound reasoning.
Me being a Ridley supporter means nothing. And what oni333 said.
Whats the point of getting it back if its nothing like it was before? Why get the car back if it can no longer be used as, well, a car and you or someone else have to push it instead?
Im not sure thats the right way to use it. "A psychosis based in uncontrolled narcissism, inflated arrogance and a perceived need to subjugate and/or ridicule other individuals deemed to be inferior or unworthy" doesn't fits here.
 
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Diddy Kong

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SoPo would be a worse King Dedede because he lacks reach, weight and jumping abilities like King Dedede? Last time I checked, Marth isn't a worse Link because he lacks projectiles... I do not get how one would come to such a conclusion.

Besides, in Ice Climber the game, it was always Popo alone who was controlled IIRC. I don't see why it wouldn't be an option. As stated before, it's ought to be better than nothing. Look how former Pokémon Trainer mains play Charizard for example. Is that blasphemy? How about the people who loved to play and switch between Zelda and Sheik in between matches? Sure they must feel ENRAGED because they'll have to pick just one character now?

Seriously, I don't see the problem. Yes, uniqueness is lost, but that's the same with characters as Samus / Zero Suit Samus, Zelda / Sheik, and Charizard being the only starter Pokémon from the original trio. Guess what? These characters are still played.

Never thought I would be advocating for the Ice Climbers this much, as I think their cut was somewhat justified, but this arguement was just stupid. Sorry.
 

BaganSmashBros

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SoPo would be a worse King Dedede because he lacks reach, weight and jumping abilities like King Dedede? Last time I checked, Marth isn't a worse Link because he lacks projectiles... I do not get how one would come to such a conclusion.

Besides, in Ice Climber the game, it was always Popo alone who was controlled IIRC. I don't see why it wouldn't be an option. As stated before, it's ought to be better than nothing. Look how former Pokémon Trainer mains play Charizard for example. Is that blasphemy? How about the people who loved to play and switch between Zelda and Sheik in between matches? Sure they must feel ENRAGED because they'll have to pick just one character now?

Seriously, I don't see the problem. Yes, uniqueness is lost, but that's the same with characters as Samus / Zero Suit Samus, Zelda / Sheik, and Charizard being the only starter Pokémon from the original trio. Guess what? These characters are still played.

Never thought I would be advocating for the Ice Climbers this much, as I think their cut was somewhat justified, but this arguement was just stupid. Sorry.
Marth is a lot faster than Link and that alone is enough to make him better. He can't attack from distance, but that doesn't matters when he reaches opponent very quickly. And SSB preferes (don't know which word to use, so, whatever) fast characters above all others. They don't deal much damage and knockback in most cases, but that doesn't matters when you can hit your opponents ten times within seconds and deal twice as much damage than your common strong character like Ganondorf and Bowser do with their slow and powerful attacks. Thats why they always are among the best. Having vastly inferiour stats, recovery and attacks is a different thing. He could be made a lot faster, but it would be ridicolous like seeing a small Dedede with Marth's attack speed. Hammers certainly can't be used like this, unlike swords.

Being able to switch characters never was that much of a good option anyway and it also was rather annoying to wait for character to load, which gave opponent time to charge up something strong or quickly reach you while you can't do anything. And its not the same.

Samus/ZSS should be out of this. They changed only when FS was used and you were unable to choose should change happen or not, but allowing someone else to take Smash Ball wasn't a good idea either, so, you were forced to do it. It also didn't mattered in competetive matches, unlike other transformations.

Charizard is still played by those who played as Charizard. Those who played as Squirtle and Ivysaur are unlikely to use him unless they used him before or are willing to use a completly different character. Zelda and Sheik are played by those who played as them and being able to change during the fight doesn't helps much unless you know both characters well enough. Transformation also wasn't what they were all about (well, PT kinda was, but not many liked being forced to change because a pokemon got overused and then getting stuck as pokemon you don't like or just can't use just because you have 2 or even 1 stock left).

Besides, all of those characters aren't liked ONLY because of how they play. There is something that can't be said for IC (in most cases at least) - characters themselves are also liked because of who they are. Ganondorf wouldn't be there for too long if he wouldn't be, well, Ganondorf. If he would be a random character that nearly no one knows, you wouldn't see him much. If he would get his own unique moveset and his old moveset would be moved to someone else, many would move to Truedorf and only those who liked how he played will stay with that new character.
 
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Bowserlick

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Can the Ice Climber gimmick remain in future series now that 8-man Smash is a thing?

One solution is giving them another gimmick. Strap them together with the bungee cord they use in their Up B special and effectively allow them to be two hurtboxes with their own attacks. The bungee cord, with its stretchy properties, could allow them to do crazy momentum shifts.
 

BaganSmashBros

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Can the Ice Climber gimmick remain in future series now that 8-man Smash is a thing?

One solution is giving them another gimmick. Strap them together with the bungee cord they use in their Up B special and effectively allow them to be two hurtboxes with their own attacks. The bungee cord, with its stretchy properties, could allow them to do crazy momentum shifts.
I am sure next console will be able to handle them. Its very early to tell that until we will know what it will be capable of

That wouldn't help much. They will still remain 2 fully rigged and detailed models, Nana will certainly need an AI to be different from Luma and to avoid being a sandbag just because Popo can't deal with situation due to being busy with something like an opponent and would need to be a separate model because i really doubt having model consisting of 2 characters can be made to move both parts according to the terrain all of the time and respond in right way to various things.
 
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Burruni

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Can the Ice Climber gimmick remain in future series now that 8-man Smash is a thing?

One solution is giving them another gimmick. Strap them together with the bungee cord they use in their Up B special and effectively allow them to be two hurtboxes with their own attacks. The bungee cord, with its stretchy properties, could allow them to do crazy momentum shifts.
We were never told that 8-player Smash was an issue at hand for Ice Climbers. We were told it is a matter that the 3DS couldn't handle the Nana, we assume it to be a combination of multiple extra AI alongside the fighter-tier quality 60 fps models.

:4olimar:'s pikmin were reduced to 3 in quality, and frankly look poor in model quality and move in an incredibly frame-y manner.

:4duckhunt:'s other half is effectively just another part of the same "skeleton" who are only separated by the eye and not in terms of any aspect of gaming. Similar to any sword user pulling out their blade for an attack but functionally it's an extension of their skeleton.

The closest true comparison is :rosalina:. Luma's AI revolves around it solely making its way back to Rosalina with mostly a disregard for gravity, complex animations, or self-chosen attacks. Luma's attacks are always synchronized to Rosalina's inputs.

However, we were never told that 8-player smash caused issues for Icies and up to the point of Sakurai's interview, faced no problems on the WiiU version I feel like 8-player smash wasn't something that began work after Icies were facing issues on 3DS for how big the mode had to be to program considering how certain stages have modifications to them.

There's no reason, as we understand it, to assume that 8-player Smash would prevent Ice Climbers as we know them to return for a future game. Especially on more potent hardware.

Edit:
SoPo would be a worse King Dedede because he lacks reach, weight and jumping abilities like King Dedede? Last time I checked, Marth isn't a worse Link because he lacks projectiles... I do not get how one would come to such a conclusion.

Besides, in Ice Climber the game, it was always Popo alone who was controlled IIRC. I don't see why it wouldn't be an option. As stated before, it's ought to be better than nothing. Look how former Pokémon Trainer mains play Charizard for example. Is that blasphemy? How about the people who loved to play and switch between Zelda and Sheik in between matches? Sure they must feel ENRAGED because they'll have to pick just one character now?

Seriously, I don't see the problem. Yes, uniqueness is lost, but that's the same with characters as Samus / Zero Suit Samus, Zelda / Sheik, and Charizard being the only starter Pokémon from the original trio. Guess what? These characters are still played.

Never thought I would be advocating for the Ice Climbers this much, as I think their cut was somewhat justified, but this arguement was just stupid. Sorry.
There's a bit of a difference here, in my opinion.

Many people who played Transformation Characters (:sheilda:,:pt:,:samus2:/:zerosuitsamus:) normally stuck to one of the two characters for the vast majority of gameplay when possible. In the Samus case, the only way to transform was via Final Smash so it wasn't exactly an aspect of core strategy. Project M's approach of separating out Pokemon Trainer as 3 more refined and balanced fighters is something I don't think I hard anyone complain about because they were able to focus on the one character they truly enjoyed.

I personally haven't heard of anyone say "Man, I miss being able to switch between Zelda and Sheik in the middle of a match." The only complaint of the result from transformation fighters being removed are those who lost their mains of :squirtle: & :ivysaur:. Just the same as :lucas::wolf: or :snake: players. They missed their fighters, not the transformation gimmick.

The issue with SoPo is it isn't bring back that same character in their playstyle. The heart of Icies was desynching and chain grabbing. I feel like SoPo would be farther from the Icies way of playing than the present :rosalina:.

It would help retain the identity of the character in Smash at the cost of their identity as a fighter.
 
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Bowserlick

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Hmmm... well maybe the rumored Chorus Kids were a "fixed" version of the Ice Climbers. Instead of several separated models they could have been either a connected horizontal model (holding hands) or a connected vertical model (sitting on each other's shoulders.

The gimmick could have been having each attack having the ability to have an additional two attacks if inputted with A to have either one, two or three attack. Examples of mulit-input attacks are nearly all jabs, Link's forward Smash, Marth's side B combo sword, and others.
 

memoryman3

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Actually, it does.

They're palette swaps, not full Alternate Costumes.

The way that Sakurai phrased things meant that Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit were all alternate costumes like Alph or the Koopalings and were later promoted to clone characters late in development.
I still don't see why these characters and Brittany have never got full voicing and likenesses.
 

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We were never told that 8-player Smash was an issue at hand for Ice Climbers. We were told it is a matter that the 3DS couldn't handle the Nana, we assume it to be a combination of multiple extra AI alongside the fighter-tier quality 60 fps models.

:4olimar:'s pikmin were reduced to 3 in quality, and frankly look poor in model quality and move in an incredibly frame-y manner.

:4duckhunt:'s other half is effectively just another part of the same "skeleton" who are only separated by the eye and not in terms of any aspect of gaming. Similar to any sword user pulling out their blade for an attack but functionally it's an extension of their skeleton.

The closest true comparison is :rosalina:. Luma's AI revolves around it solely making its way back to Rosalina with mostly a disregard for gravity, complex animations, or self-chosen attacks. Luma's attacks are always synchronized to Rosalina's inputs.

However, we were never told that 8-player smash caused issues for Icies and up to the point of Sakurai's interview, faced no problems on the WiiU version I feel like 8-player smash wasn't something that began work after Icies were facing issues on 3DS for how big the mode had to be to program considering how certain stages have modifications to them.

There's no reason, as we understand it, to assume that 8-player Smash would prevent Ice Climbers as we know them to return for a future game. Especially on more potent hardware.
Also use Action Replay on Melee to get the six players on FD. And use the Ice Climbers. Game runs smoothly. It's was always 3DS. Wii U would run 8 ICs in 60fps in no sweat.
 

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Me being a Ridley supporter means nothing. And what oni333 said.
Whats the point of getting it back if its nothing like it was before? Why get the car back if it can no longer be used as, well, a car and you or someone else have to push it instead?
Im not sure thats the right way to use it. "A psychosis based in uncontrolled narcissism, inflated arrogance and a perceived need to subjugate and/or ridicule other individuals deemed to be inferior or unworthy" doesn't fits here.
Look at is like it's Basketball. If I was told the NBA was cancelled for a season, but they were streaming the European league instead, I would be bummed the better NBA league isn't available, but I like basketball so I would settle for a lesser version of basketball. I wouldn't shut out everything because the number one option isn't available. That's asinine and childish.

And your attitude definitely fit most if not all of those attributes, but I'm gonna leave the ad homenims alone and focus on the issue we're debating.

talking about blind conclusion jumping immediately after stereotyping ridley fans and saying he is an elitist.
lol
I didn't jump to conculsions, he said I don't care about the Ice Climbers movesets blatantly, which is untrue. As for the ridley fan thing, it was probably uncalled for, but every time I've interacted with a Ridley fan they've been elitist and illogical, with the exception of one, so I'm just calling it as I see it.
 
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Bowserlick

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Now does the Wii U or 3DS exclusive characters break Sakurai's promise of identical rosters if the exclusive characters were DLC?

Because Sakurai said that the 3DS and Wiiu games were complete. These new characters are extras at the request of fans.

Also, Mewtwo was only a free add if you had both the Wii U and 3DS which almost seems to blur the lines about identical rosters by adding conditions.

* Can the Ice Climbers be a Wii U exclusive DLC? (It seems like 8-man Smash would not be affected).
 
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BaganSmashBros

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Look at is like it's Basketball. If I was told the NBA was cancelled for a season, but they were streaming the European league instead, I would be bummed the better NBA league isn't available, but I like basketball so I would settle for a lesser version of basketball. I wouldn't shut out everything because the number one option isn't available. That's asinine and childish.

And your attitude definitely fit most if not all of those attributes, but I'm gonna leave the ad homenims alone and focus on the issue we're debating.
I dislike that kind of stuff and know next to nothing about stuff related to it, so, can't really tell if its the same thing or not. So, i'll give my example. If SSB64 would be made with same gameplay as it has, but with original cast it had* instead of famous Nintendo characters, would you still play it as much?

I disagree. This does not affect the debate anyway.
I didn't jump to conculsions, he said I don't care about the Ice Climbers movesets blatantly, which is untrue. As for the ridley fan thing, it was probably uncalled for, but every time I've interacted with a Ridley fan they've been elitist and illogical, with the exception of one, so I'm just calling it as I see it.
Just because one small shark out of 10000 decided to bite your toe doesn't means that every single one of them is a bloodthirsty killing machine that will attack anyone on sight.
Now does the Wii U or 3DS exclusive characters break Sakurai's promise of identical rosters if the exclusive characters were DLC?

Because Sakurai said that the 3DS and Wiiu games were complete. These new characters are extras at the request of fans.

Also, Mewtwo was only a free add if you had both the Wii U and 3DS which almost seems to blur the lines about identical rosters by adding conditions.

* Can the Ice Climbers be a Wii U exclusive DLC? (It seems like 8-man Smash would not be affected).
Of course. But it also depends on what Sakurai will think of it. If he will decide to be an idiot again with such decisions (before you say anything about salt, let me remind you that he though tripping was a good idea, "same roster for both versions even though it can result in WiiU version getting handicapped because 3DS one can't handle a character that works just fine on WiiU version", have game give you custom moves you already have and no longer need, use completly new enemies for SSE even though actual Nintendo enemies we all know and love would be a lot better, etc.), then no. But if he will think its fine, then it can happen.


* - SSB originally did not had Nintendo characters.

But from what we see, it pretty much was the same thing in terms of gameplay (% meter instead of health bars, 4 players instead of usual 2, characters don't automatically turn to face each other and a stage that consists of more than just floor, background and extra stuff that doesn't affects gameplay) and hello, future Captain Falcon.
 
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FalKoopa

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Can the Ice Climber gimmick remain in future series now that 8-man Smash is a thing?

One solution is giving them another gimmick. Strap them together with the bungee cord they use in their Up B special and effectively allow them to be two hurtboxes with their own attacks. The bungee cord, with its stretchy properties, could allow them to do crazy momentum shifts.
The Wii U's successor most likely will be able to handle it. The future portable version simply needs to not add 8 player smash.

I don't think Wii U could handle ICs in 8 player Smash though, if we note this statement.
“It was a thing I considered when thinking about the follow-up for the first Smash,” Sakurai noted. Sadly, “it was more than impossible” based on technical performance. This time around, it was “achieved just barely. In 8-Player Smash, the stage selection is limited, stage gimmics are changed [no bosses for example] and so on.”
:231:
 
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Burruni

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I still don't see why these characters and Brittany have never got full voicing and likenesses.
Time. Making a pallette swap is a margin of the work and cost to fully edit the model into a different character and get different voice overs. When we look at the present Alternate Costumes

:4wario:: Editted model. Pre-Existing.

:4villagerf:: Different gender, no voice. But more varied models. One of the first characters worked on.

:4wiifit:/:4wiifitm:-:4robinm:/:4robinf:: Different gender, other costumes are just palette swaps. Full voicework.

:4alph:: Different character, no voice, other costumes are pallette swaps.

:4larry::4roy::4wendy::4iggy::4morton::4lemmy::4ludwig:: The most work put into alternate costumes and almost didn't make it into the game. All different characters, minimal but unique voices.

Daisy is someone that honestly should have made it in but likely didn't time-saving corners cut by just keeping the same pallette swap.

Brittany, Charlie, Louie, and the President would be another case of Koopaling work for a far less major series with characters who have been in 1, 2 games max.

Every Smash game is an incredible workload start to end, certain "fanservices" in things like full alternate costumes instead of palette swaps just aren't done in the manner of time. To ask why no Daisy or Brittany is on par of asking why there was no Lucas or Wolf alts for Ness and Lucas except without the heritage of Smashdom.


Now does the Wii U or 3DS exclusive characters break Sakurai's promise of identical rosters if the exclusive characters were DLC?
Yes. An exclusive character breaks the rule of an identical roster. DLC or no this breaks his grounds.
 
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Bowserlick

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Time and energy was already put into the Ice Climbers. And even into innovating ways to make them work on the 3DS (which failed). Granted, polishing up the duo would take more time, but I doubt the development team deleted their work.

If the time was put into the characters and they could only exist on one console, I think adding them as a download is a good idea.
 
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Look at is like it's Basketball. If I was told the NBA was cancelled for a season, but they were streaming the European league instead, I would be bummed the better NBA league isn't available, but I like basketball so I would settle for a lesser version of basketball. I wouldn't shut out everything because the number one option isn't available. That's asinine and childish.

And your attitude definitely fit most if not all of those attributes, but I'm gonna leave the ad homenims alone and focus on the issue we're debating.



I didn't jump to conculsions, he said I don't care about the Ice Climbers movesets blatantly, which is untrue. As for the ridley fan thing, it was probably uncalled for, but every time I've interacted with a Ridley fan they've been elitist and illogical, with the exception of one, so I'm just calling it as I see it.
Except it wouldnt be basketball because sopo would have to play completely different. It wouldnt be european it wouldlacrosse or something. It isnt an inferior version but a different idea entirley

the loud ones you have seen are crap. But guess what. Stereotyping for any reason is ridiculously foolish. Idgaf if you believe your right no reason to ALSO be a **** about it when the guy posted at you a single harmless sentence that caused you to jump on him. Learn to not be predjudice. Seriously he posted one sentence jesus christ.
 
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Burruni

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To bring up a lighter subject....

Since we had a few people make a few "Reveal puns" for characters yesterday, why not do Boxing Ring titles for your most wanted/expected characters?

Bandana Dee - The Spearman of Dee-struction

Inkling - The Territorial Inkvader

Ganon - Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely
 
D

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Different continuity? That removes all plotholes. But if the guy behind it all said thats was a different one, then whatever. And how exactly can Ash remember first Mewtwo? Didn't he erased himself from his memory before leaving?
You haven't seen Mewtwo Returns either, have you?
Long story short, Ash encountered Mewtwo again in Johto, helped him and his clone friends with Giovanni and with Mewtwo's internal struggle of whether or not he really belongs in the world, and Mewtwo did not wipe his memory this time.

As for the idea of different continuity, that makes even less sense than the two Mewtwo being the same individual.

This means that they were not able to use those two as sources anyhow. So, they had only 1st Mewtwo and Mewtwo from games, but those are very hard to use since they are RPGs and don't show pokemons moving outside of idle animations.
The only difference the Genesect movie would have done if it somehow debuted before Melee would be Mewtwo having different characterization in Smash along with the female voice and using Aura Sphere instead of Shadow Ball.

The reason why Mewtwo has his telekinetic hovering is because Sakurai liked the concept, not because it was the "only" route to take.
No, seriously. The idea of Mewtwo being an ESP-based fighter was part of why Sakurai wanted to have Mewtwo since the original Smash.
@PushDustIn This was in one of the Melee questionnaires; I don't remember which page, but I do remember seeing that be brought up when I translated out of curiosity a year or two back.

(Back to Bagan)
Just like the idea of making Jigglypuff make Kirby-like jumps despite not doing so....anywhere. Essentially just because she was the Balloon Pokémon.


Because he can and he doesn't seems to be kind of guy to limit himself?
He's more of the guy that doesn't move if he doesn't have to if we're going by the 1st anime Mewtwo.
Think about it. His style of fighting was staying in place, using psychic barriers to avoid getting hit, reflecting attacks back at the opponent, using telekinesis to immobilize opponents or send them flying, and firing Shadow Balls.
It wasn't until Mew showed up and kept dodging his Shadow Balls from a distance did he actually start flying around to chase Mew down.


But he is not top-heavy unless just having long and kinda bulky arms already counts as this. Others are more top-heavy than him thanks to their weird hump part of torso (only Ridley-X seems to lack it, but he isn't Ridley and never should be counted as such). And i don't get where did that nickname came from. He just has bulky arms and legs, but everything else is thin (as in bones are visible and not as in not wide).
Having a hump doesn't translate to being top-heavy.
Here are some examples of being top-heavy:
Wind Waker Ganondorf (actually, any older muscular male character in the "Toon" style falls under this)
Sonic Boom Knuckles
Mega Swampert
Donkey Kong

Ridley's older designs aren't top-heavy. Other M Ridley is.
And he's nicknamed "Roidley" due to how beefy he is compared to previous designs.

Yes. And in Other M, pretty much everything looks organic and realistic. Other M Ridley's design is realistic outside of his extendable tail. Limb-neck is weird, but it looks...er...wide...large...whatever enough for him to actually be able to eat anything. MP3 Ridleys also look realistic since they don't have that pecil-thin neck, but its hard to tell since they are cyborgs and we never see organic versions of them.
It's clear you and I have very different definitions of the word "realistic".
This point is just going to be an endless circle, so I'm going to withdraw from it.

Mostly that. Just doesn't looks right when he was shown as normal kind of dragon (IMO, more like a mutated xenomorph with different neck, head and with wings, but whatever) before.
Basically he's better off as a wyrm than a wyvern.

(Ironically, wyverns are technically more "realistic" due to not having an abnormal amount of limbs for a vertebrate...:troll:)
 
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Xzsmmc

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Okay, let's say a Smash game came out for arcade or something with a limit of 35 characters. Just grasping it firmly straws here. Now, let's say you got to choose the roster, cutting out the fat of the bunch and dealing in necessity. As opposed to moveset alone, now a huge factor is recognizability and saturation of key Nintendo characters.

Who do you scrap? Who do you leave (or even add as a newcomer)? And most importantly, what is the final roster?

And please, the arcade situation is hypothetical. Do not factor it into your reasoning.
Let's give it a shot.
 

Bowserlick

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The Metroid series should just make human/metroid splicing a thing and have a villain for a future game being one of the first instances of this experiment. Humanoid, but transparent like a Metroid with veins and retractable tentacles visible underneath. Basically a humanoid jellyfish that can feed on nearly all energy sources. The lights can go off as he/she walks by for atmospheric effect.

And you are also creating a future Smash character.
 
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