Character Discussion Thread

[Spazzy_D]

This is something I'm definitely keeping in mind. That being said, random casual voters aren't going to rally behind the sorts of characters people here are arguing "Nintendo might add and justify with the poll," like the Chorus Kids. They're also apt to forget about the poll after a few months, leaving the stronger say with the online fans obsessed/dedicated enough to keep voting.

I've brought this up before, but every one of the "older" fans I've talked to, mostly friends of mine that haven't played Smash since hardcore since Melee, have voted for Roy. Some of them didn't know about the poll until I told them, then they went ahead and voted for Roy. All of these people are in their early 30s.

It'll be difficult to get an actual handle on the votes by asking around on Smash centric forums.

 

[Wolfie557]

Could we possible make a SmashBoards poll ala the reddit one?

Would be interesting to compare this part of the internet to the other, especially if we can get a couple thousand votes.
Also, multiple choice allowed.

 

[N3ON]

Being "deserving" is simply an aggregate of the other qualities people value in a character: being iconic, being important, being well-known, and being popular. Basically the qualities that make a character a big name.

And obviously those things are important, being "deserving" is just a divisive qualification because one, people are too cavalier in throwing it around, and two, as the bar for entry lowers with each Smash the "big names" run out, yet people cling to the "deserving" mantle because it did apply more justifiably in past rosters when the majority of (non-clone) newcomers added were legitimately big names. Now most of the additions fall under the category simply of "nice to have" instead of iconic, important or indeed "deserving", which I believe extended only to Villager, Mii, and debatably Little Mac this time around.

As it stands now, the only remaining omitted big-name iconic characters (in other words "deserving") would be Toad, Ridley, and K. Rool. Some might argue Dixie, but that in itself shows that while some general agreement can be found over who is "deserving" or not, it will always inherently be subjective. Though I believe at one point it did hold merit as far Smash goes, however that time has passed.

That's not to say being "deserving" is the be-all-and-end-all of inclusion, because not only are there other factors like potential among others which come into play, but with Smash 4 it seems that as the big-names had mostly already been included up to that point, the focus shifted from "big in general" simply to "big in the last few years".

So yes, I would say "deserving" was an apt way of describing characters back when the roster was made up mostly of the biggest names Nintendo had to offer, or at least names from the biggest series Nintendo had to offer (plus clones and the odd exception or two) but now that it's pretty much based on just what made a splash since Brawl, it's time to drop that qualification, it no longer applies. Just like how Smash is no longer prefaced by "Nintendo's All-Stars".

(I also excluded third-parties because that's a whole other set of standards as far as I'm concerned)

 

[BKupa666]

I've brought this up before, but every one of the "older" fans I've talked to, mostly friends of mine that haven't played Smash since hardcore since Melee, have voted for Roy. Some of them didn't know about the poll until I told them, then they went ahead and voted for Roy. All of these people are in their early 30s.

It'll be difficult to get an actual handle on the votes by asking around on Smash centric forums.

I see. A lot of fans are going to have groups of friends who all vote for different characters they personally enjoy. Maybe a little kid rallies his friend circle to go vote for Toad, maybe some gamer club goes and votes for Squirtle, and so on. My point is that, unless a giant chunk of those little groups all vote for the same character, and it's one that the online fanatics are already putting out there in decent numbers, it's not going to make much of a dent in the long run.

The same sort of vote split is (I think) ultimately going to keep us from getting a third party DLC character at all. Too many little pockets of fans rallying for random characters who don't begin to measure up to Sonic/Mega Man/Pac-Man.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm not bothered by why a character gets into Smash. I'm just happy they're there. :3

As far as third-parties go, while I will support the likes of Professor Layton and Shantae to my dying breath, I think the only likely candidate right now is Snake, and even that's because of his veteran status.

 

[Wolfie557]

Being "deserving" is simply an aggregate of the other qualities people value in a character: being iconic, being important, being well-known, and being popular. Basically the qualities that make a character a big name.

And obviously those things are important, being "deserving" is just a divisive qualification because one, people are too cavalier in throwing it around, and two, as the bar for entry lowers with each Smash the "big names" run out, yet people cling to the "deserving" mantle because it did apply more justifiably in past rosters when the majority of (non-clone) newcomers added were legitimately big names. Now most of the additions fall under the category simply of "nice to have" instead of iconic, important or indeed "deserving", which I believe extended only to Villager, Mii, and debatably Little Mac this time around.

As it stands now, the only remaining omitted big-name iconic characters (in other words "deserving") would be Toad, Ridley, and K. Rool. Some might argue Dixie, but that in itself shows that while some general agreement can be found over who is "deserving" or not, it will always inherently be subjective. Though I believe at one point it did hold merit as far Smash goes, however that time has passed.

That's not to say being "deserving" is the be-all-and-end-all of inclusion, because not only are there other factors like potential among others which come into play, but with Smash 4 it seems that as the big-names had mostly already been included up to that point, the focus shifted from "big in general" simply to "big in the last few years".

So yes, I would say "deserving" was an apt way of describing characters back when the roster was made up mostly of the biggest names Nintendo had to offer, or at least names from the biggest series Nintendo had to offer (plus clones and the odd exception or two) but now that it's pretty much based on just what made a splash since Brawl, it's time to drop that qualification, it no longer applies. Just like how Smash is no longer prefaced by "Nintendo's All-Stars".

(I also excluded third-parties because that's a whole other set of standards as far as I'm concerned)

I don't think Toad is THAT iconic, though it's all subjective on this matter.
I would say Rayman is very high up there.

 

[Spinosaurus]

No Toad is definitely iconic.

Waaaay more than the majority of the characters that are already in.

 

[Pazzo.]

I still think we're thinking of this as a democratic vote.

*Throws computer*

 

[Spazzy_D]

I see. A lot of fans are going to have groups of friends who all vote for different characters they personally enjoy. Maybe a little kid rallies his friend circle to go vote for Toad, maybe some gamer club goes and votes for Squirtle, and so on. My point is that, unless a giant chunk of those little groups all vote for the same character, and it's one that the online fanatics are already putting out there in decent numbers, it's not going to make much of a dent in the long run.

The same sort of vote split is (I think) ultimately going to keep us from getting a third party DLC character at all. Too many little pockets of fans rallying for random characters who don't begin to measure up to Sonic/Mega Man/Pac-Man.

I'm not saying that it will have an extremely noticeable effect on the over all votes, just that votes will be coming from large groups of people that do not frequently talk about Smash.

I think Snake is the most likely third party rep as vets will get votes, no matter what. I think the Artsy Omni leak may have strummed up enough support for Rayman, and since he "checks all the boxes" for a third party character's inclusion in Smash (longevity, iconic status, has appeared on a Nintendo consoles) I believe he legitimately has a shot.

I believe that his "smashify" artwork has also lead to some of the Shovel Knight love. I have no other explanation for what is going on with that character. The cult of personality that has formed around him is ridiculous. He is the new Geno.

Regardless, I am not going to stop banging the table for Bomberman. The little guy deserves it.

EDIT:

I'm not bothered by why a character gets into Smash. I'm just happy they're there. :3

As far as third-parties go, while I will support the likes of Professor Layton and Shantae to my dying breath, I think the only likely candidate right now is Snake, and even that's because of his veteran status.

Ha, this was posted while I was in the middle of my response.

 

[N3ON]

I don't think Toad is THAT iconic, though it's all subjective on this matter.

It is ultimately subjective, but Toad is pretty iconic. More people know who he is than the majority of the Smash roster.

I would say Rayman is very high up there.

Of course you would now. But how about if his trophy wasn't in Smash and that leak hadn't happened? Then people would have a good laugh if someone seriously suggested Rayman and anybody who says otherwise clearly didn't follow Smash before he got involved.

 

[JamesDNaux]

I wanted Rayman in Smash before third parties ever got in. :/

 

[Wintropy]

Actually, yeah, I think Rayman may be in with a shot too. May be.

I still don't think Banjo is at all likely. But I'm a dirty pleb that thinks Super Mario 64 is a better game, so what do I know?

 

[N3ON]

Don't forget the only third-parties pretty universally accepted (other than by purists) without some kind of preceding loophole (Kojima and Sakurai being bffs <3, Namco working on the game, Rayman already having a trophy) were Sonic, Mega Man, and during the Brawl era Bomberman.

Now that people want him Rayman is debatably "deserving", but back in 2013 and earlier the vast majority would be singing a different tune, you can count on that.

 

[Pazzo.]

TBH, the Rayman leak is why we're discussing his chances at all.

 

[N3ON]

TBH, the Rayman leak is why we're discussing his chances at all.

Yeah that's true. Even when he had the trophy the consensus on him was pretty split and eventually died down.

If he ever gets in Ubisoft owes a great debt to Hex.

 

[Wolfie557]

It is ultimately subjective, but Toad is pretty iconic. More people know who he is than the majority of the Smash roster.


Of course you would now. But how about if his trophy wasn't in Smash and that leak hadn't happened? Then people would have a good laugh if someone seriously suggested Rayman and anybody who says otherwise clearly didn't follow Smash before he got involved.

Not sure....
But I've been supporting Rayman since I found out what Smash Bros actually is at E3 2013....

To me at least, he is very very iconic. Played Rayman & Pacman at least a decade before Mario or Sonic. And Sonic I only played his demo's and phone games. I actually did not have a clue who Megaman was when I saw his reveal trailer. I think he only is in because of his moves and history, and fan support!

 

[Spazzy_D]

Don't forget the only third-parties pretty universally accepted (other than by purists) without some kind of preceding loophole (Kojima and Sakurai being bffs <3, Namco working on the game, Rayman already having a trophy) were Sonic, Mega Man, and during the Brawl era Bomberman.

Now that people want him Rayman is debatably "deserving", but back in 2013 and earlier the vast majority would be singing a different tune, you can count on that.

Rayman is a logical choice though. Ubisoft is the 9th largest video game developer in the world, and they are the Western studio that has most heavily supported Nintendo. After Capcom, Konami, and Sega, the only large Japanese companies to not have representation in Smash Bros. that have historical ties with Nintendo are Square-Enix and Tecmo-Koei. Ubisoft has had very close ties to Nintendo for the past two console generations (think Red Steel and Zombie U, as well as Just Dance and Rabbids) so it would not be surprising to see them leap frog the two aforementioned Japanese giants. Rayman is their mascot, he is from a very well known and financially successful series, and he fits well into Smash aesthetically.

Leak or no leak, he makes perfect sense. I've always thought so.

 

[Curious Villager]

Not sure....
But I've been supporting Rayman since I found out what Smash Bros actually is at E3 2013....

To me at least, he is very very iconic. Played Rayman & Pacman at least a decade before Mario or Sonic. And Sonic I only played his demo's and phone games. I actually did not have a clue who Megaman was when I saw his reveal trailer. I think he only is in because of his moves and history, and fan support!

I'm kinda on a similar boat actually. I actually knew about Rayman far before I even knew about the other third parties and saw him around a lot too, so I was kinda surprised when he apparently wasn't considered as iconic as the others....

 

[JamesDNaux]

TBH, the Rayman leak is why we're discussing his chances at all.

I've been discussing his chances ever since a random Rayman trophy showed up in a Post of the Day.



Though I remember during Brawl speculation after Snake showed up, everyone was crying "Sonic! Mega Man!" and all I could think of was "Third parties? It's gotta be Rayman! Oh yeah, Sonic's cool too. Wait, who's Mega Man?"

 

[Wolfie557]

I've been discussing his chances ever since a random Rayman trophy showed up in a Post of the Day.



Though I remember during Brawl speculation after Snake showed up, everyone was crying "Sonic! Mega Man!" and all I could think of was "Third parties? It's gotta be Rayman! Oh yeah, Sonic's cool too. Wait, who's Mega Man?"

Megaman is incredibly irrelevenat to those that only played consoles after the 00's.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I've been discussing his chances ever since a random Rayman trophy showed up in a Post of the Day.



Though I remember during Brawl speculation after Snake showed up, everyone was crying "Sonic! Mega Man!" and all I could think of was "Third parties? It's gotta be Rayman! Oh yeah, Sonic's cool too. Wait, who's Mega Man?"

Here's one of Shortie's last polls from before E3 2013.

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-ssb-poll-lounge-dlc-mode-engaged.324324/page-19

Rayman is the 31st most wanted newcomer.

Third party characters that are before him are:

1. Megaman
2. Banjo and Kazooie
3. Second Sonic rep
4. Bomberman
5. Pacman
6. Sora

Looking at that list, I think people always though Rayman made sense, even if they didn't think he was a shoo-in. Sora stands out on that list to me, in a bad way. He doesn't really strike me as an industry icon, but whatever. Opinions, right?

 

[N3ON]

I have to believe 90% of people who claim to have supported Rayman prior to his involvement in Smash are either bald-faced liars or are doing that thing where they never vocally decried him (which isn't hard considering no one was talking about him anyway) and like to retcon their own history of support to make it seem like they had always been down with the idea when they jump aboard the bandwagon.

It's just a bit incredulous to think all these Rayman supporters that have come out of the woodwork since were actually longtime supporters when like almost no one was talking about Rayman before any of this happened. They weren't talking about it when Origins came out, they weren't talking about it when Legends came out, they only really started when the trophy was revealed, but especially when the leak was released.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular, and I know some people legitimately have supported Rayman longer than most, but you can understand how it can be hard to believe when support goes from almost non-existent (to the point the few supporters were chided) to rabid.

Rayman is a logical choice though. Ubisoft is the 9th largest video game developer in the world, and they are the Western studio that has most heavily supported Nintendo. After Capcom, Konami, and Sega, the only large Japanese companies to not have representation in Smash Bros. that have historical ties with Nintendo are Square-Enix and Tecmo-Koei. Ubisoft has had very close ties to Nintendo for the past two console generations (think Red Steel and Zombie U, as well as Just Dance and Rabbids) so it would not be surprising to see them leap frog the two aforementioned Japanese giants. Rayman is their mascot, he is from a very well known and financially successful series, and he fits well into Smash aesthetically.

Leak or no leak, he makes perfect sense. I've always thought so.

I never said he wasn't.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I have to believe 90% of people who claim to have supported Rayman prior to his involvement in Smash are either bald-faced liars or are doing that thing where they never vocally decried him (which isn't hard considering no one was talking about him anyway) and like to retcon their own history of support to make it seem like they had always been down with the idea when they jump aboard the bandwagon.

It's just a bit incredulous to think all these Rayman supporters that have come out of the woodwork since were actually longtime supporters when like almost no one was talking about Rayman before any of this happened. They weren't talking about it when Origins came out, they weren't talking about it when Legends came out, they only really started when the trophy was revealed, but especially when the leak was released.

I'm not referring to anyone in particular, and I know some people legitimately have supported Rayman longer than most, but you can understand how it can be hard to believe when support goes from almost non-existent (to the point the few supporters were chided) to rabid.


I never said he wasn't.

I remember seeing Rayman on quite a few speculation rosters before his trophy was revealed.

 

[N3ON]

I remember seeing Rayman on quite a few speculation rosters before his trophy was revealed.

I don't.

 

[Baskerville]

You could say the say the same thing for Banjo really. I don't remember anybody talking about him before Phil Spencer's tweet and if there was, there was little.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I don't.

You could be right. I'm going to have to look this up now.

...I hate you for this.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Megaman is incredibly irrelevenat to those that only played consoles after the 00's.

My first game was Pac-Man.

Who cares about "00's" kids?

I remember seeing Rayman on quite a few speculation rosters before his trophy was revealed.

I could probably dig up quite a few old rosters that I had him on.


Admittedly, he was mostly a pipe dream like Banjo but I've always wanted him. Now I just have an excuse to be vocal about it.

 

[A Distant Demon]

rayman talk and no one has posted the recent tweet. Please

A new #RetroRayman with an added twist this time! What #TBT Raymanized game do you think is hiding behind there? pic.twitter.com/Bjfp5GxeMY

— Rayman (@RaymanGame) April 9, 2015

very clearly a reference to smash. They really want it now.

-battlefield
-portraits at the bottom


and banjo support weas nonexistant pre-tweet. But now people think he has a chance and are coming out of the woodwork. Just like Geno support came out when the poll started even though it had been nonexistant for months.

 

[N3ON]

You could be right. I'm going to have to look this up now.

...I hate you for this.

See for yourself:
http://smashboards.com/threads/roster-prediction-display-thread.324220/

 

[Cutie Gwen]

You could say the say the same thing for Banjo really. I don't remember anybody talking about him before Phil Spencer's tweet and if there was, there was little.

N3ON always had Banjo in her sig and Relax Alax said he wanted them on his profile last year

 

[N3ON]

You could say the say the same thing for Banjo really. I don't remember anybody talking about him before Phil Spencer's tweet and if there was, there was little.

That's true to an extent but it's also largely rekindling support that once existed and only died out because the chance of it actually happening seemed to evaporate.

 

[A Distant Demon]

and ill say it now I rayman was in my sig since I first figured out how to use GIMP. But i never actively supported him. Not a single post about him other than in the Ridley group. never even posted in the rayman thread.

 

[Spazzy_D]

See for yourself:
http://smashboards.com/threads/roster-prediction-display-thread.324220/

At least 12 rosters from before the Rayman trophy was revealed have him on them. Not overwhelming or anything, but he clearly had support and people that believed he had a legitimate shot.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I remember seeing Rayman on quite a few people's rosters on YouTube.

 

[Baskerville]

That's true to an extent but it's also largely rekindling support that once existed and only died out because the chance of it actually happening seemed to evaporate.

I wasn't around during Brawl speculation, we're there people actually talking about him as much as they are now?

 

[N3ON]

At least 12 rosters from before the Rayman trophy was revealed have him on them. Not overwhelming or anything, but he clearly had support and people that believed he had a legitimate shot.

Twelve? Of like 550? I think that proves my point...

I remember seeing Rayman on quite a few people's rosters on YouTube.

You mean the ones that were loaded up with third-parties? Let's not pretend people still don't make fun of those kind of rosters.

 

[Wolfie557]

rayman talk and no one has posted the recent tweet. Please

A new #RetroRayman with an added twist this time! What #TBT Raymanized game do you think is hiding behind there? pic.twitter.com/Bjfp5GxeMY

— Rayman (@RaymanGame) April 9, 2015

very clearly a reference to smash. They really want it now.

-battlefield
-portraits at the bottom


and banjo support weas nonexistant pre-tweet. But now people think he has a chance and are coming out of the woodwork. Just like Geno support came out when the poll started even though it had been nonexistant for months.

One of those shapes looks like Mr G & W's face.

The top center one!!!!! :D

 

[N3ON]

I wasn't around during Brawl speculation, we're there people actually talking about him as much as they are now?

Some were, not a lot because people had already stopped expecting it, but I'm mostly referring to around Melee when they had a legitimate shot and were up there on the Melee poll.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Twelve? Of like 550? I think that proves my point...


You mean the ones that were loaded up with third-parties? Let's not pretend people still don't make fun of those kind of rosters.

You have to think in the context of who we have now, though. People were always working under the assumption of limited third party characters, and now that Sega, Namco, and Capcom have positions locked up it opens up the doors for other companies.

Ubisoft is one of the most logical companies left that has yet to add a character. You can't take current speculation and treat it like it exists in a pre-Smash 4 launch vacuum.

 

[N3ON]

You have to think in the context of who we have now, though. People were always working under the assumption of limited third party characters, and now that Sega, Namco, and Capcom have positions locked up it opens up the doors for other companies.

Ubisoft is one of the most logical companies left that has yet to add a character. You can't take current speculation and treat it like it exists in a pre-Smash 4 launch vacuum.

Go back to that thread though, it certainly didn't stop people from putting other third-parties on their rosters.

I agree Rayman makes sense. I do. I'm just saying hardly anyone gave a flip before recently.