Character Discussion Thread

[FlareHabanero]

The only thing I can remember from pre-Brawl days of Sakurai talking about ZSS's inclusion was that he was happy to have more female characters in. I wouldn't even call it a new female character honestly, it's still just Samus.

Thus the shoehorned Krystal, Lyndis, and Ashley fanbases were born that day.

 

[Dinoman96]

The only thing I can remember from pre-Brawl days of Sakurai talking about ZSS's inclusion was that he was happy to have more female characters in. I wouldn't even call it a new female character honestly, it's still just Samus.

He said he also liked how it added a new Metroid character as well.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/05/31/sakurais-smash-bros-update

I put Zero Suit Samus in thinking I wanted to include more characters from the popular Metroid series. Also, since Smash Bros. has few female characters, I was quite happy to include her.

So he really did add another Metroid character over Ridley for the sake of adding one. Oh dear.

EDIT: Ah damn it, Ninja'd by TumblrFamous.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Appearing in the original Kid Icarus doesn't really cut it for me, and it does not exactly make me in support for Medusa. I still say Hades should go first to be the new main villain for Kid Icarus.

 

[Shorts]

Zelda and Peach confirmed for scrapped.

What?

Butthurt to the max over the thought of no Palutena.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

He said he also liked how it added a new Metroid character as well.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/05/31/sakurais-smash-bros-update



So he really did add another Metroid character over Ridley for the sake of adding one. Oh dear.

EDIT: Ah damn it, Ninja'd by TumblrFamous.

That's quite mind-boggling, especially considered how awesome the rest of the Brawl additions were.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Super Mario 3D World.

Honestly, I never seriously considered Rosalina until that game.

I have no idea why I didn't remember that game.

 

[Gunla]

Appearing in the original Kid Icarus doesn't really cut it for me, and it's not exactly be honestly in support for Medusa. I still say Hades should go first to be the new main villain for Kid Icarus.

Medusa's appearance in the original does cement her as honestly more important. She's a longer enemy than Hades... and then, well this comparison:
Spoilers for F-Zero GX

Spoiler: Spoilers

Black Shadow is led by Deathborn but Shadow is more iconic in that nature that's he's seen in more games. And do we see much support for Deathborn or thoughts that he is more likely?

 

[FlareHabanero]

What?

Butthurt to the max over the thought of no Palutena.

He said that Palutena was a damsel in distress that is regulated to the sidelines, which is a problem.

Zelda and Peach do that most of the time, and yet no one thinks about it.

Make like an Atari Jaguar advertisement and do the math.

 

[AncientTobacco]

Appearing in the original Kid Icarus doesn't really cut it for me, and it does not exactly make me in support for Medusa. I still say Hades should go first to be the new main villain for Kid Icarus.

Do you have any reasoning for that or do you simply like the character more?

 

[Shorts]

He said that Palutena was a damsel in distress that is regulated to the sidelines, which is a problem.

Zelda and Peach do that most of the time, and yet no one thinks about it.

Make like an Atari Jaguar advertisement and do the math.

No, he said she IS the secondary character, but she also plays the damsal in distress / guide, so it wouldn't be crazy to see other characters take his spot. (Especially ones who fight) You really just JUUUUUUMPED the gun. He didn't say she wasn't worthy/important enough to be in Smash because of her damsal status.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I have no idea why I didn't remember that game.

Do you think Sakurai would've known that Rosalina was going to be in 3D World? I mean, the character list was probably finished a while ago. I know he can ask Nintendo about it, but I think regardless Rosalina would've gotten in because of what Sakurai decided to do with her.

 

[BluePikmin11]

Do you have any reasoning for that or do you simply like the character more?

Yeah, I just like Hades more and would rather him be the new villain for the KI games than Medusa, even though Medusa's abilities are pretty unique on its own.

Do you think Sakurai would've known that Rosalina was going to be in 3D World? I mean, the character list was probably finished a while ago. I know he can ask Nintendo about it, but I think regardless Rosalina would've gotten in because of what Sakurai decided to do with her.

I think Nintendo talked to Sakurai into adding Rosalina to the game so she could become a marketable icon for the Mario series.

 

[?????????????]

Do you think Sakurai would've known that Rosalina was going to be in 3D World? I mean, the character list was probably finished a while ago. I know he can ask Nintendo about it, but I think regardless Rosalina would've gotten in because of what Sakurai decided to do with her.

Could be totally wrong here, but given that Mario 3D World was released well before SSB4, I would think that it's planning stages would have been completed before SSB4's, and that Rosalina being playable in the game would have been common knowledge among Nintendo heads.

Total speculation. But it'd be as much of a coincidence as Sakurai creating a Mario Kart based trailer for Rosalina on for the day they were showing off Rosalina in a Mario Kart trailer.

 

[FlareHabanero]

No, he said she IS the secondary character, but she also plays the damsal in distress / guide, so it wouldn't be crazy to see other characters take his spot. (Especially ones who fight) You really just JUUUUUUMPED the gun. He didn't say she wasn't worthy/important enough to be in Smash because of her damsal status.

It's still a double standard, because it's suggesting that a character of that status is at heavy risk of permanently being pushed aside because of that niche, even though again that has been already proven wrong. It's basically a really worthless tidbit to begin with, and people actually thinking it will effect anything are naive.

 

[Shorts]

Rosalina isn't such a crazy choice, when you look at moveset potential from other Mario candidates. Toad, Junior, and Waluigi aren't quite as interesting as her.

It's still a double standard, because it's suggesting that a character of that status is at heavy risk of permanently being pushed aside because of that niche, even though again that has been already proven wrong. It's basically a really worthless tidbit to begin with, and people actually thinking it will effect anything are naive.

He didn't suggest that, he simply answered my hypothetical "What if" scenario. He never said it would affect he chances. This wasn't about her chances, or reasons she wouldn't be included. I just asked who do you think would make it in, if she didn't. And he answered.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Still makes me wonder why we underestimated her. I mean, yes, we always did, but she was never considered a serious contender until 3D World came out. But the fact that Sakurai made her completely different from what we've seen before makes me believe he always had her in mind, it's not like she was never appearing until 3D World anyway.

Still, we don't know specific times when games were in certain stages, so it's difficult to estimate. Tis all speculation.

 

[AncientTobacco]

Rosalina isn't such a crazy choice, when you look at moveset potential from other Mario candidates. Toad, Junior, and Waluigi aren't quite as interesting as her.

When you looked at Rosalina before her reveal, she wasn't that interesting either.

 

[?????????????]

It's still a double standard, because it's suggesting that a character of that status is at heavy risk of permanently being pushed aside because of that niche, even though again that has been already proven wrong. It's basically a really worthless tidbit to begin with, and people actually thinking it will effect anything are naive.

I must have forgotten the part where Palutena personally went out of her way to rescue Pit herself (like Peach), or the part where she provided backup fire for Pit as he was fighting Hades (Zelda).

Oh wait.

...Actually, you know who did those things? Dark Pit and Medusa.

 

[Gunla]

Still makes me wonder why we underestimated her.

Because everyone was blinded by Bowser Jr/Waluigi and no one expected her to be a puppeteer, and everyone said Peach Clone.

 

[RouffWestie]

 

[FlareHabanero]

I must have forgotten the part where Palutena personally went out of her way to rescue Pit herself (like Peach), or the part where she provided backup fire for Pit as he was fighting Hades (Zelda).

Oh wait.

...Actually, you know who did those things? Dark Pit and Medusa.

Which is worthless information.

You're not getting the picture here, the arguments are worthless because we already have examples on the roster defying it.

 

[BluePikmin11]

It was probably for the fact people never tried hard enough to make Rosalina work as a very unique character. There were some things that we could've taken from the Galaxy games such as gravity to make her work.

 

[?????????????]

Which is worthless information.

You're not getting the picture here, the arguments are worthless because we already have examples on the roster defying it.

No, we don't. That was the entire point of the first post I made in response to you.

Peach and Zelda have done more than be a damsel in distress or guide. Palutena has not, except for when she was possessed.

 

[AncientTobacco]

I must have forgotten the part where Palutena personally went out of her way to rescue Pit herself (like Peach), or the part where she provided backup fire for Pit as he was fighting Hades (Zelda).

Oh wait.

...Actually, you know who did those things? Dark Pit and Medusa.

You forgot the part where she helped Pit defeat the Hewdrew by shooting a giant beam of light. (Though it only happens if you take too long.)

 

[?????????????]

You forgot the part where she helped Pit defeat the Hewdrew by shooting a giant beam of light. (Though it only happens if you take too long.)

Yeah actually I did forget that. ...why doesn't she do that more often?

 

[TumblrFamous]

I must say, Mewtwo is almost a necessity.

 

[LaniusShrike]

I feel like Palutena and Zelda are very, very, very similar in terms of prominence in their series. Both are the title characters of their series (Palutena's Mirror in Japan), both are princesses that dilettante in distressed damseling, both harness powerful divine magic yet and great wisdom yet get bested and captured constantly, they both have had supporting roles in combat...
With the notable exception of the playable Phantom Zelda, who appeared after Zelda's appearance in Melee, they serve almost identical roles in their series.

 

[Dinoman96]

Yeah actually I did forget that. ...why doesn't she do that more often?

It's also good to point out that it was with her help that Pit managed to destroy Hades. She was the one who charged up what remained of the GST's cannon, which allowed Pit to get rid of Hades.

So...in regards to "or the part where she provided backup fire for Pit as he was fighting Hades (Zelda)", yeah, she did kinda do that.

 

[?????????????]

It's also good to point out that it was with her help that Pit managed to destroy Hades. She was the one who charged up what remained of the GST's cannon, which allowed Pit to get rid of Hades.

So...in regards to "or the part where she provided backup fire for Pit as he was fighting Hades (Zelda)", yeah, she did kinda do that.

I feel like Palutena and Zelda are very, very, very similar in terms of prominence in their series. Both are the title characters of their series (Palutena's Mirror in Japan), both are princesses that dilettante in distressed damseling, both harness powerful divine magic yet and great wisdom yet get bested and captured constantly, they both have had supporting roles in combat...
With the notable exception of the playable Phantom Zelda, who appeared after Zelda's appearance in Melee, they serve almost identical roles in their series.

@ Dinoman96
Now that, I did remember.

...I guess I felt like the fact Palutena isn't physically there makes a difference. Zelda and Palutena do play very similar roles, but Palutena is able to help Pit without the need of being on the actual battlefield (unlike Zelda). And we already see this in SSB with Pit's Final Smash.

So again, while I do agree Palutena is the obvious second Kid Icarus character, I still stand by the opinion that an alternative character, like Medusa or Hades, as characters we do see on the actual battlefield of Kid Icarus games, are acceptable alternative characters.

If the Kid Icarus games offer us a plethora of characters who like to fight, why is the obvious choice for SSB the one who doesn't?

 

[shrooby]

Yeah actually I did forget that. ...why doesn't she do that more often?

Because more often than not it's Pick on Pit Day.

 

[Arcanir]

Well, Sakurai did post an article talking about the first newcomers shown for Brawl, it's in the Development Thread, but here's a link:

http://www.ign.com/articles/2006/05/31/sakurais-smash-bros-update

So basically, he's saying that he wanted to add females and another Metroid rep. Zero Suit was just two-in-one I guess. Still, I like sexy Samus.

The way he makes it sound makes it feel like she was just there to fill a quota rather then on her own merits, which is odd considering how every other newcomer brought more and had more reason to their inclusion then that.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Bloody hell, this is just as bad as people saying Captain Falcon shouldn't be a playable character because he doesn't engage in combat in F-Zero.

 

[LaniusShrike]

@ Dinoman96
Now that, I did remember.

...I guess I felt like the fact Palutena isn't physically there makes a difference. Zelda and Palutena do play very similar roles, but Palutena is able to help Pit without the need of being on the actual battlefield. And we already see this in SSB with Pit's Final Smash.

So again, while I do agree Palutena is the obvious second Kid Icarus character, I still stand by the opinion that an alternative character, like Medusa or Hades, as characters we do see on the actual battlefield of Kid Icarus games, are acceptable alternative characters.

If the Kid Icarus games offer us a plethora of characters who like to fight, why is the obvious choice the one who doesn't?

My beef with Kid Icarus villains is just that they originate from classic mythology and aren't original Nintendo creations... even if they're super tweaked, they just don't do it for me.

 

[?????????????]

It's situational. Captain Falcon is the main character of F-Zero.

We already have Pit. This is for a secondary character.

This would be like saying we should have Dr. Stewart instead of Samurai Goroh. They're both important characters, but Goroh is obviously the fighter.

My beef with Kid Icarus villains is just that they originate from classic mythology and aren't original Nintendo creations... even if they're super tweaked, they just don't do it for me.

I understand that. It doesn't bother me, though, because Marvel uses Thor.

Strange comparison, but eh.

 

[FlareHabanero]

It's situational. Captain Falcon is the main character of F-Zero.

We already have Pit. This is for a secondary character.

This would be like saying we should have Dr. Stewart instead of Samurai Goroh. They're both important characters, but Goroh is obviously the fighter.

Oh so if a character is a main character, they can get away with it scott free, while anyone else must go through the trials because reasons.

 

[Gunla]

Bloody hell, this is just as bad as people saying Captain Falcon shouldn't be a playable character because he doesn't engage in combat in F-Zero.

Wii Fit Trainer. Villager. Two characters who don't engage in combat and are playable.

 

[?????????????]

Oh so if a character is a main character, they can get away with it scott free, while anyone else must go through the trials because reasons.

No, because I already support Palutena as the second Kid Icarus character for SSB4.

The entire question was about who would you pick if Palutena was, for some reason, unavailable. Someone pointed out it would be unreasonable to pick anybody but Palutena. I disagree because I don't think Palutena is the only choice for a second Kid Icarus character in SSB, given the roles of other characters in Kid Icarus.

 

[FlareHabanero]

No, because I already support Palutena as the second Kid Icarus rep for SSB4.

The entire question was about who would you pick if Palutena was, for some reason, unavailable. Someone pointed out it would be unreasonable to pick anybody but Palutena. I disagree because I don't think Palutena is the only choice for a second Kid Icarus character in SSB, given the roles of other characters in Kid Icarus.

I just think that if Palutena fails to get in, then it won't exactly fair better for other characters in the same series.

But if she doesn't make it in, it won't be because she doesn't engage in hand to hand combat in Kid Icarus. More likely will have to do with avoiding bias from Sakurai, which as proven in previous interviews it's something he can perfectly do, and is the reason why any other Kirby characters were held off until Brawl.

 

[LaniusShrike]

Well, C.Falcon's a weird example, as nobody in his game is shown fighting, but we also know that Falcon does fight since he is a bounty hunter. So... there's no opportunity for him to show off his fighting since it's a racing game, and it's pretty explicitly stated that he is a combatant.
So, I dunno, not that apt of a comparison. Besides, I don't think it's that strange to say "it's not impossible that a more combat-centric character would be selected for Smash."
Doesn't seem like that important of an debate point, acknowledging that things aren't absolutes.

~Pizza dude, it doesn't bother me that Kid Icarus uses mythological characters, as that is their selected setting. Mostly, it would kind of weird me out seeing them represented in a "Nintendo's All-Stars" game like Smash. They aren't really your all stars to begin with... they're thousands of years old and being repurposed.

 

[Dinoman96]

To be honest, I think the "he/she doesn't fight!" argument can work, but it really depends.

For one thing, I don't really think series like F-Zero and Animal Crossing really need more than one character due to the gameplay of their series not primarily about combat and are adequately represented with just their mascot. On the other hand, looking at Nintendo's more 'combat oriented' series, I obviously wouldn't put in characters that have literally no fighting capabilities what so ever, such as Pauline, Toadsworth, Link's Grandma, etc. That would be like adding Mary Jane Watson and Aunt May to Marvel vs, Capcom.

I don't think a character really needs a master's degree in fighting, I think they should just A. Come from a series about combat and B. Have some combat capabilities, and characters like Peach, Zelda and Palutena fit both those bills.

EDIT: This in regards to additional side characters, by the way. Obviously not-fighting series like Game & Watch and Wii Fit are represented in Smash with their mascot, but they never go beyond that.