Character Discussion Thread

[AEMehr]

The term "second-party" was not created on Smashboards.

We, the people of the gaming community, led to the creation of such a term.

just because we're on smashboards doesn't mean we're not part of something bigger no??

 

[Kenith]

We, the people of the gaming community, led to the creation of such a term.
just because we're on smashboards doesn't mean we're not part of something bigger no??

I never implied that, I just misconstrued your post.
Regardless, this entire topic is incredibly pedantic.
The point is that the game franchises in question are really small, underdeveloped, and overlooked.

 

[AEMehr]

Indeed.

Characters get picked based on what they bring to the game and whether they can attract an audience or not. Low sales and franchise exposure can really hinder how "appetizing" a character looks to the developers.
It's a pretty damning factor against most minor (in comparison) Nintendo franchises. It's no real surprise most of them get nothing more than an assist trophy and rarely a stage.

 

[Dinoman96]

Explain . Although Technically Second Party characters don't even exist, such a thing is impossible

Particularly you Arcadenik, because if you think people are "in denial" supporting these characters I'd love to hear how you have deluded yourself into ignoring Shulk

Monolith Soft is a full first party developer for Nintendo, making Xenoblade a pure Nintendo IP if that makes sense. That alone warrants Shulk's inclusion over someone like Isaac and Saki. In terms of importance, a 'minor' first party IP has the upper edge against a minor second party developed IP. XB having a future in the form of Xenoblade Chronicles X doesn't hurt either.

As Swamp said, there is no such thing as a "2nd-Party". The IPs are still completely owned by Nintendo, they just aren't made in-house.

First Party: Developed by Nintendo, published by Nintendo.
Second Party: Developed by another company, published by Nintendo.
Third Party: Developed and published by another company.

I'd say it does exists, unless you have another term for the middle part above.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

That's what I've been saying for a long time but people didn't want to listen and told me there's no patterns... and they kept on supporting Isaac, Saki, Starfy, Custom Robo, etc. in denial.

One of these is not like the other.

 

[Kalimdori]

Monolith Soft is a full first party developer for Nintendo, making Xenoblade a pure Nintendo IP if that makes sense. That alone warrants Shulk's inclusion over someone like Isaac and Saki. In terms of importance, a 'minor' first party IP has the upper edge against a minor second party developed IP. XB having a future in the form of



First Party: Developed by Nintendo, published by Nintendo.
Second Party: Developed by another company, published by Nintendo.
Third Party: Developed and published by another company.

I'd say it does exists, unless you have another term for the middle part above.

Golden Sun and Sin and Punishment are also pure Nintendo IP's, I'm not seeing your point here.

Just because they are developed by a second, or even third party studio, does not make them suddenly become a second/third party franchise. What you are talking about is an entirely made up rule with no real precedence. As was pointed out earlier:

"2nd party" franchises
Pokemon (main series only) 189.28M or 18.93M on average (including RBY, GSC, etc as one game, but remakes separately)
Kirby 35.18M or about 1.54M average over 17 non-spinoff games
Golden Sun 3.73m or 1.24M average over 3 Games.
Xenoblade Chronicles 0.89M from 1 Game
The Legendary Starfy 0.84 from 1 Game.
Fire Emblem 7.61 or 0.65M average over 11 games (FE1 and Gaiden don't have sales listed)
Advance Wars 2.34M or 0.58M average over 4 games (only the GBA and Ds games had sales listed)
Mother 1.67M or 0.55M average over 3 Games
Custom Robo 1.24 or 0.31M average over 4 Games
Sin and Punishment .55M or 0.27M average over 2 Games
Chibi Robo .77M or .15M average over 5 Games

The games these characters are from don't sell well, simple as that, being "First or Second Party" has nothing to do with it, at least as far as we know. With the excpetion of Golden Sun, for which I really don't have an explanation. (Golden Sun got treated weird in this iteration of Smash)

Mother does terribly, yet it has had more content then some first party developed franchises.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Monolith Soft is a full first party developer for Nintendo, making Xenoblade a pure Nintendo IP if that makes sense. That alone warrants Shulk's inclusion over someone like Isaac and Saki. In terms of importance, a 'minor' first party IP has the upper edge against a minor second party developed IP. XB having a future in the form of



First Party: Developed by Nintendo, published by Nintendo.
Second Party: Developed by another company, published by Nintendo.
Third Party: Developed and published by another company.

I'd say it does exists, unless you have another term for the middle part above.

First-party. If its published by Nintendo, its first-party. End of story. There is a difference between third-party IPs published as a first-party game. Bayonetta 2 is a first-party game, but the Bayonetta IP is owned by SEGA.


Let's put through another popular example, Golden Sun. The IP is co-owned by Nintendo and Camelot, and the characters are actually 100% owned by Nintendo. Nintendo does not hold any license over the Bayonetta IP.

Golden Sun and Sin and Punishment are also pure Nintendo IP's, I'm not seeing your point here.

Just because they are developed by a second, or even third party studio, does not make them suddenly become a second/third party franchise. What you are talking about is an entirely made up rule with no real precedence. As was pointed out earlier:


The games these characters are from don't sell well, simple as that, being "First or Second Party" has nothing to do with it, at least as far as we know. With the excpetion of Golden Sun, for which I really don't have an explanation. (Golden Sun got treated weird in this iteration of Smash)

Mother does terribly, yet it has had more content then some first party developed franchises.

GS was probably left out due to bad timing.

 

[FalKoopa]

Also using wikipedia as a credible source!?!?! has school taught you nothing

Most of my teachers are fine with Wikipedia (that's what they themselves use, lol.)

Monolith Soft is a full first party developer for Nintendo, making Xenoblade a pure Nintendo IP if that makes sense. That alone warrants Shulk's inclusion over someone like Isaac and Saki. In terms of importance, a 'minor' first party IP has the upper edge against a minor second party developed IP. XB having a future in the form of


First Party: Developed by Nintendo, published by Nintendo.
Second Party: Developed by another company, published by Nintendo.
Third Party: Developed and published by another company.

I'd say it does exists, unless you have another term for the middle part above.

The middle one is technically first-party, as First/Third party is decided by who owns the IP.

By the definition we use, Smash 4 is a 2nd Party game as it was developed by Namco Bandai and directed by Sora.

 

[Arcadenik]

One of these is not like the other.

Golden Sun is Camelot, not Nintendo EAD. Golden Sun just doesn't have the In-House Nintendo Bias.

 

[JamesDNaux]

If Pokemon isn't second party, then how come this exists?

 

[JaidynReiman]

If Pokemon isn't second party, then how come this exists?

The main Pokemon games are all first-party. However, The Pokemon Company can produce Pokemon-related things without Nintendo. Besides, second-party doesn't really exist.

 

[JamesDNaux]

The main Pokemon games are all first-party. However, The Pokemon Company can produce Pokemon-related things without Nintendo. Besides, second-party doesn't really exist.

Nothing really exists until we come up with a term and continually use it. Otherwise, either the IP is completely owned by the company, or not at all owned by the company. If Nintendo owns Pokemon but stuff like this can happen, it's second party.

Rare was also second party, hence how it was able to sell half of itself to M$. Now it's a first party subsidiary of M$.

 

[Arcadenik]

If Pokemon isn't second party, then how come this exists?

How can this exist in 1993 or 1994 before the Pokemon games existed in 1996?

 

[JamesDNaux]

How can this exist in 1993 or 1994 before the Pokemon games existed in 1996?

The Sega Pico was released in 1993, not the specific Pikachu edition.

 

[FalKoopa]

Rare was also second party, hence how it was able to sell half of itself to M$. Now it's a first party subsidiary of M$.

Rare is a company, not an IP. Donkey Kong and Banjo Kazooie were IPs. The former was owned by Ninty, the latter by Rare. When Rare was sold to MS, so was the Banjo-Kazooie IP alongside them. (Admittedly this was resolved only after the buyout.)

In the Sega Pico, Nintendo agreed to let Sega use it. Sega manufactured the hardware, simple as that. That doesn't make Pokémon 2nd party, as Nintendo still has full control over how they are depicted or used.

To clear any confusion, "2nd Party" is a not a strictly defined technical term unlike "1st Party" and "3rd Party". You'll not see a mention of "2nd Party" in any official document or manual.

 

[Kenith]

You know, despite the fact all we've been talking about the past two pages is parties, I haven't been having much fun.

 

[JaidynReiman]

Nothing really exists until we come up with a term and continually use it. Otherwise, either the IP is completely owned by the company, or not at all owned by the company. If Nintendo owns Pokemon but stuff like this can happen, it's second party.

Rare was also second party, hence how it was able to sell half of itself to M$. Now it's a first party subsidiary of M$.

The problem is, second-party is not a legally binding term. We can use it all we want, but in reality, second-party games are just first-party by legal definition. In legal terms, there's first-party and third-party, nothing in between.

Rare is a company, not an IP. Donkey Kong and Banjo Kazooie were IPs. The former was owned by Ninty, the latter by Rare. When Rare was sold to MS, so was the Banjo-Kazooie IP alongside them. (Admittedly this was resolved only after the buyout.)

In the Sega Pico, Nintendo agreed to let Sega use it. Sega manufactured the hardware, simple as that. That doesn't make Pokémon 2nd party, as Nintendo still has full control over how they are depicted or used.

To clear any confusion, "2nd Party" is a not a strictly defined technical term unlike "1st Party" and "3rd Party". You'll see a mention of "2nd Party" in any official document or manual.

This. Though I think you mean "You'll never see".

 

[FalKoopa]

This. Though I think you mean "You'll never see".

Yeah. Some typos are deadly.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Rare is a company, not an IP. Donkey Kong and Banjo Kazooie were IPs. The former was owned by Ninty, the latter by Rare. When Rare was sold to MS, so was the Banjo-Kazooie IP alongside them. (Admittedly this was resolved only after the buyout.)

In the Sega Pico, Nintendo agreed to let Sega use it. Sega manufactured the hardware, simple as that. That doesn't make Pokémon 2nd party, as Nintendo still has full control over how they are depicted or used.

To clear any confusion, "2nd Party" is a not a strictly defined technical term unlike "1st Party" and "3rd Party". You'll not see a mention of "2nd Party" in any official document or manual.

...I never said Rare was an IP, that's just common sense.

If you want to use strict legal terms, that's one thing. But telling me I can't call blue, blue because it's technically indigo...

I'm reminded of the bunch of blokes that made me feel terrible for using the word "main" to refer to numerous characters.

 

[FalKoopa]

...I never said Rare was an IP, that's just common sense.

If you want to use strict legal terms, that's one thing. But telling me I can't call blue, blue because it's technically indigo...

I'm reminded of the bunch of blokes that made me feel terrible for using the word "main" to refer to numerous characters.

"2nd Party" is an ambiguous term which is prone to misuse, so that's why I'm saying we should avoid that.

 

[JamesDNaux]

"2nd Party" is an ambiguous term which is prone to misuse, so that's why I'm saying we should avoid that.

Doesn't stop people from using and abusing the term "retro" to fit their own needs during Smash speculation. But eh...

 

[Freduardo]

All this Wario talk makes me want a Waluigi standalone game.

Then, Waluigi DLC.

Waluigi's Repo Depot?

 

[Kenith]

Still discussing the meaning of the term "second-party"?
You guys are going in circles at this point.

 

[Substitution]

Still discussing the meaning of the term "second-party"?
You guys are going in circles at this point.

But running in circles is one of our prime selling points. Right next to straw grasping and relevancy.

 

[Deleted member]

I never implied that, I just misconstrued your post.
Regardless, this entire topic is incredibly pedantic.
The point is that the game franchises in question are really small, underdeveloped, and overlooked.

I'm sorry, but this is literally the first time I've seen/heard anyone use this word outside of Family Guy context.

 

[Pazzo.]

2nd party, 1st party, whatever.

90% of most Nintendo games could be argued for '2nd Party' anyway.

 

[Kenith]

I'm sorry, but this is literally the first time I've seen/heard anyone use this word outside of Family Guy context.

Ha. Is it not correct though?

 

[Deleted member]

Ha. Is it not correct though?

It is.
It's just.....bizarre to actually see that word.

 

[Kenith]

It is.
It's just.....bizarre to actually see that word.

Yeah...sometimes I overcomplicate my vocabulary.

 

[Wintropy]

It is.
It's just.....bizarre to actually see that word.

I know a guy who used to regularly call me a pedant.

Was good times.

 

[Caryslan]

Rare is a company, not an IP. Donkey Kong and Banjo Kazooie were IPs. The former was owned by Ninty, the latter by Rare. When Rare was sold to MS, so was the Banjo-Kazooie IP alongside them. (Admittedly this was resolved only after the buyout.)

In the Sega Pico, Nintendo agreed to let Sega use it. Sega manufactured the hardware, simple as that. That doesn't make Pokémon 2nd party, as Nintendo still has full control over how they are depicted or used.

To clear any confusion, "2nd Party" is a not a strictly defined technical term unlike "1st Party" and "3rd Party". You'll not see a mention of "2nd Party" in any official document or manual.

Adding something to this, a Pokemon game on the Sega Pico is no different from Sonic games on Nintendo hardware.

In this case, Sega is the hardware maker and any outside company that produces software for the Pico is a third-party company.

So, in the case of a Pokemon game on the Pico, Nintendo is a third-party publisher since they are putting a game on hardware that is not their own.

One other thing to clear up any confusion in case people don't know, the Pico is not a game system. It is based on the Genesis/Megadrive hardware, but is closer to Leapfrog systems that are on the market nowadays.

The Pico was pretty much an educational system that could play storybook software.

 

[Coricus]

You know, despite the fact all we've been talking about the past two pages is parties, I haven't been having much fun.

Whenever people talk about parties outside of a birthday context, it usually doesn't end well.

I think Isaac might get in just off of the huge wave of requests he has combined with unique moveset potential and having one of the highest selling games on the GBA, second party be darned.

I could easily be wrong, though. I'll just wait these next 5 or so years and see.

 

[Deathlightning21]

They're just innocent bullets! They probably have nowhere left but McFirearms!

Well, If they wanna keep their jobs then they better fire when I tell them to jump! I'm not running an airsoft shop here!

 

[TylerBlackRunIt]

What If Sora Was Announced For SSB4?

 

[Deathlightning21]

What If Sora Was Announced For SSB4?

I would cry my eyes out in hate, hate for everything and everyone

 

[A Distant Demon]

What If Sora Was Announced For SSB4?

I woild be angry it isnt riku jump for joy because i ****ing love KH. Bias would eliminate any hate for his silliness or that Disney may need to get involved (i honestly dont know who owns him)

 

[Will]

Well, If they wanna keep their jobs then they better fire when I tell them to jump! I'm not running an airsoft shop here!

What do you know? It could be the guns. Bartholomew is a very lazy firearm! He shoots late and his accuracy

What If Sora Was Announced For SSB4?

There are two ways this could go out :

Disney : If it's them who represents it,we know Mickey is also a high chance representative as well,most likely in the Epic Mickey formation. Bowser Jr. brush fans will rejoice. Also,it seems cool.

Square : Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife Cloud Strife,and finally Cloud Strife. and then maybe Geno

 

[Pazzo.]

Please, Mickey Mouse for SSB4 DLC?

That'd be almost as cool as a black and white Pac-Man.

 

[BKupa666]

Controversial opinions eh? Here's a doozy:

Spoiler

I think the Smash speculation community is too quick to judge how good a character would be prior to labelling them 'boring' or 'unique'.

Pac-Man, Duck Hunt (Dog) and Rosalina were all considered boring choices with little moveset potential prior to getting in the game. Low and behold, people now love them, they all have unique and interesting movesets and are considered some of the best additions in the game.

Palutena meanwhile was part of Smashboards "Elite Four", many seeing her as being one of the most unique and deserving individuals, yet many ended up completely underwhelmed by her inclusion. Her gimmick was essentially having loads of moveset potential that Sakurai couldn't decide upon, but the majority still weren't impressed.

Bizarrely Little Mac ended up as a character that was both in Smashboards "Elite Four" and as a character many thought would be dull due to the fact he only punches.

Bowser Jr. was a particularly interesting case since many who originally hated the idea of him being included due to the popular idea of him being based entirely around his paintbrush(or the Shadow Mario transformation idea), were delighted by his inclusion in the Koopa car, and having the Koopalings as alts. Bowser Jr. paintbrush fans however, were somewhat less pleased by essentially being the Koopa Clown Car rather than Bowser Jr.

Essentially Smash Speculators don't know what will be boring and what won't until the character comes into fruition.

Claiming to boycott the game because your favourite character didn't get in is pointless.

We all know you're getting it regardless. That character wasn't in any previous Smash either and you still got them. Unless your favourite is a cut veteran that is.

Agree, with the following additions/caveats. . .

--Boycotting =/= not buying due to disinterest. And buying old titles doesn't mean new ones will be inherently appealing to the buyer. I point to Mario Party as an example I think speaks for itself. With Smash, people may have liked the new additions to older titles and not so much with the latest one.

--Dunno if the community is too quick to judge or is too stubborn/obtuse to recognize good potential where it exists. Maybe it's a "shallow and pedantic" difference, maybe they go hand-in-hand. . .they reach bad judgments quickly (RIDLEY IS TOO BIG! MAC CAN ONLY PUNCH!) and never let them go unless Sakurai himself proves them wrong, which brings me to. . .

--Everything that gets into the game is accepted, regardless of quality. @Swampasaur has touched on this in terms of people being sheep-like, and it's true. It's why "opinions change" on those characters that were written off for dumb reason, but become deeply entrenched if Sakurai even implies that he agrees, let alone outright states an out-of-character boss to be "the correct way" in interview.

 

[Pazzo.]

@BKoopa666

Do you still see K. Rool as real potential for DLC? I'd love for the guy to get in, so I'm interested on your opinions.