Character Discussion Thread

[Naoshi]

Archiving those threads sounds like killing off all the characters finally after their deconfirmation as playable characters. Scary.

On the Metal Sonic-leak:

I saw this quite a while ago. As much as I've LOVE this to be true, but it might be fake. The selecting alt's flash doesn't flash exactly the same way it does on the actual 3DS footages. It (the flashing) is not as subtle.

Plus the fact the leakers or anyone else with any connections has never commented on this sort of makes this suspicious...

 

[?????????????]

How is this roster possibly worse than Brawl's? It's pretty much Brawl's roster with more.

Assuming Wolf, Lucas, Ice Climbers, and Snake really are cut, what are we really losing? Wolf is great, but did people really clamor for him as a newcomer in Brawl? His inclusion was kinda "eh," and his role in the Star Fox series itself isn't even that impressive. He's an obligatory rival that appears in half the games for a fight or two, and doesn't serve as a primary antagonist. Even when he's in games where he has a greater role, it's still not as large as the core Star Fox team.

I love Lucas, and I love MOTHER 3, and I hate the prospect that those elements may be diminished. But we all knew that, if it came between Ness and Lucas, Ness is more traditional and more recognized internationally. Additionally, Ness and Lucas share pretty much the same exact pool of powers in their respective games, so we're not losing anything major playstyle-wise.

Ice Climbers are Smash traditional at this point, but does anyone really care about the character? I thought Ice Climber was an "okay" game, and their playstyle in SSB was pretty cheap. If Duck Hunt Dog is real, I think that'd be a better character from a better game, not to mention Pit and Little Mac.

No one expected Snake in the first place. He was a great addition, but even now, no one really attributes him to Nintendo save for SSB itself. I'll miss him, but it's not the worst loss we could have. It's not like we lost Meta Knight or Diddy Kong or someone truly important to Nintendo franchises. In fact, I don't think any of these potential cuts are as bad as Mewtwo's.

Stack these cuts against the fantastic newcomers we have gotten. How could this roster possibly be worse?

 

[Spazzy_D]

Those people were idiots, I was a lurker back then and not a poster. Brawls roster was so good and this one sooo isn't.

I disagree, I like these newcomers more then Brawl's for the most part. The fact that most of Brawl's best newcomers were revealed in the initial trailer was probably part of that.

 

[JamesDNaux]

Snake is the worst loss for me.


Particularly since Sonic is back.


It's annoying that detractors are trying to put him down because he's gone.

 

[Naoshi]

How is this roster possibly worse than Brawl's? It's pretty much Brawl's roster with more.

Assuming Wolf, Lucas, Ice Climbers, and Snake really are cut, what are we really losing? Wolf is great, but did people really clamor for him as a newcomer in Brawl? His inclusion was kinda "eh," and his role in the Star Fox series itself isn't even that impressive. He's an obligatory rival that appears in half the games for a fight or two, and doesn't serve as a primary antagonist. Even when he's in games where he has a greater role, it's still not as large as the core Star Fox team.

I love Lucas, and I love MOTHER 3, and I hate the prospect that those elements may be diminished. But we all knew that, if it came between Ness and Lucas, Ness is more traditional and more recognized internationally. Additionally, Ness and Lucas share pretty much the same exact pool of powers in their respective games, so we're not losing anything major playstyle-wise.

Ice Climbers are Smash traditional at this point, but does anyone really care about the character? I thought Ice Climber was an "okay" game, and their playstyle in SSB was pretty cheap. If Duck Hunt Dog is real, I think that'd be a better character from a better game, not to mention Pit and Little Mac.

No one expected Snake in the first place. He was a great addition, but even now, no one really attributes him to Nintendo save for SSB itself. I'll miss him, but it's not the worst loss we could have. It's not like we lost Meta Knight or Diddy Kong or someone truly important to Nintendo franchises. In fact, I don't think any of these potential cuts are as bad as Mewtwo's.

Stack these cuts against the fantastic newcomers we have gotten. How could this roster possibly be worse?

Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut too, which saddens me because Squirtle is my favorite Pokemon. As for Wolf, there are plenty of Wolf fans, so yes, people did clamor for Wolf. As for Lucas, having the Mother rep going back to 1 character is pretty ****ty, no matter who was cut, both Ness and Lucas has their fans.

And yes, plenty of people ALSO cares for Ice Climbers, they don't need to care about their game. Hell, I don't like their game but I like their inclusion in Smash Bros and it doesn't feel the same without them. They were very unique.

While I am with you that the roster is better than Brawl, since there's Mega Man, Miis, Palutena, etc... I can see why others wouldn't like the roster as much. It's all subjective and down to tastes. Everyone has their own favorites (whether they are popular or not, let's not act like there were no fans of IC, Wolf and such) There is no need to look down at others' opinions for liking something else more. If they like Brawl's roster more, let them. It's not your business to tell them what they should like more.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I think the reason why Brawl's roster was better was because there were so many cool newcomers even without King K and Ridley. Guys like Pokemon Trainer, Diddy, Ike, Wario, Sonic and Olimar all really deserved to be there. On the other hand guys like Pac Man, Rosalina, Greninja, and Shulk don't in my opinion.

I think the reason why Smash 4's roster better is because there were so many cool newcomers even without King K and Ridley. Guys like Little Mac, Robin, Villager, Megaman and Palutena all really deserved to be there. On the other hand guys like Snake, Zero Suit Samus, Lucario, and Lucas don't in my opinion.

Opinions are fun!

(I actually really like Lucas, but deserved is the key word.)

 

[~Krystal~]

I could see why people would be angry about Brawl's roster. Bear in mind that Lucas wasn't exactly a household name in North America. No one asked for R.O.B. and Pit came out of nowhere, probably on the strength of Japanese requests. Wario, DDD, and MK were no brainers. Captain Olimar was a nice choice, but then Toon Link was turned into a clone (I'd prefer he wasn't), so there was frustration there. Sonic probably stole priority from other planned characters when he was crammed in at the 11th hour, and his moveset could have turned out a lot better. Putting Snake in was a good call, even though it wasn't Sakurai's idea in the first place. No negative comment on Fire Emblem. Prior to Awakening, it's been a relatively obscure series. Ike's games never caught fire to be honest, but if you were going to add another character, he was the most logical choice since he had a lot of popularity within the fanbase.

 

[MagnesD3]

I disagree, I like these newcomers more then Brawl's for the most part. The fact that most of Brawl's best newcomers were revealed in the initial trailer was probably part of that.

Brawl gave us a new Mario rep (Wario I'm counting him), a new dk rep, a new Zelda rep, a new Metroid rep, 2 new Kirby reps, a new star fox rep, a new fire emblem rep, a new earthbound rep, 4 new pokemon reps, 2 3rd party reps, 2 retro reps and a new worthy series with olimar. The only substantial unique and important cut was mewtwo who supposed to be included. This roster was amazing now let's look at smash 4 who ignores the popular franchises.

3 more Mario reps, 2 more kid Icarus reps, 1 more pokemon rep with 3 unique character cuts including mewtwo, minus 1 important starfox rep, minus one 2 time vet, 2 3rd parties added with one cut, 1 earthbound cut, 2 fire emblem reps, 1 retro addition, and 4 new series only 2 which deserved to be in, and 3 custom fighters. This roster is awful In comparison to brawl, classics are being ignored, bias is being implemented, marketing controls this roster stupidly.

 

[?????????????]

Snake is the worst loss for me.


Particularly since Sonic is back.


It's annoying that detractors are trying to put him down because he's gone.

Well, there was no way Sonic was going anywhere. Since Brawl, there have been so many Mario/Sonic crossovers, not to mention Nintendo exclusive Sonic games. We don't even know yet if Snake really is gone, but it shouldn't be surprising if he's gone and Sonic isn't.

Squirtle and Ivysaur are cut too, which saddens me because Squirtle is my favorite Pokemon. As for Wolf, there are plenty of Wolf fans, so yes, people did clamor for Wolf. As for Lucas, having the Mother rep going back to 1 character is pretty ****ty, no matter who was cut, both Ness and Lucas has their fans.

And yes, plenty of people ALSO cares for Ice Climbers, they don't need to care about their game. Hell, I don't like their game but I like their inclusion in Smash Bros and it doesn't feel the same without them. They were very unique.

While I am with you that the roster is better than Brawl, since there's Mega Man, Miis, Palutena, etc... I can see why others wouldn't like the roster as much. It's all subjective and down to tastes. There is no need to look down at others' opinions for liking something else more.

Brawl saddened me because Mewtwo is my favorite Pokemon. That doesn't stop me from seeing how obvious it is that Brawl has a bigger, better roster than Melee.

There are plenty of fans for every character, and I agree that losing Lucas is ****ty. But the loss isn't as dramatic as some people would like to make it out to be.

The Ice Climbers were unique, but they were broken. It'd be pretty impossible to make a dual character of that nature without the character feeling unbalanced; it's two characters for one. They can both hold items, and they can chain grab.

The loss of a few characters who were similar to others, difficult to balance, or otherwise difficult to re-implement is, of course, sad. People like Wolf, Lucas, Ice Climbers, Snake, Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, even Pichu. And people are free to hold their opinions that this roster is worse than Brawl's, or the worst roster of all time, if they so wish. But that doesn't mean you can look down on my opinions either.

However sad the cuts are, they are more than made up for by the large amount of unique newcomers in addition to the massive amount of extra material in the game. Now, my intention is not to look down on people, but in my opinion, those who believe that the loss of a few characters who really aren't as important as they'd like to think makes Brawl a better roster than the new game are just upset that their favorite character didn't make it.

It's reasonable to be upset by that, but is the loss really so great that it's okay to ignore all the new material? It comes off to me as whiny. The fact that a potentially 50+ character roster with all the staples we would expect is seen as less than a 35 character roster simply because a few less staple-ey characters didn't make it.

Brawl gave us a new Mario rep (Wario I'm counting him), a new dk rep, a new Zelda rep, a new Metroid rep, 2 new Kirby reps, a new star fox rep, a new fire emblem rep, a new earthbound rep, 4 new pokemon reps, 2 3rd party reps, 2 retro reps and a new worthy series with olimar. The only substantial unique and important cut was mewtwo who supposed to be included. This roster was amazing now let's look at smash 4 who ignores the popular franchses.

3 more Mario reps, 2 more kid Icarus reps, 1 more pokemon rep with 3 unique character cuts including mewtwo, minus 1 important starfox rep, minus one 2 time vet, 2 3rd parties added with one cut, 1 earthbound cut, 2 fire emblem reps, 1 retro addition, and 4 new series only 2 which deserved to be in. This roster is awful In comparison to brawl, classics are being ignored, bias is being implemented, marketing controls this roster stupidly.

The problem with comparing the additions of this roster to the additions of Brawl is that Brawl already added the most important characters we hadn't seen, such as Wario, King Dedede, Meta Knight, and Diddy Kong. After the additions of these necessities, anything else is pretty much extra.

And that's what this game's roster is. It's Brawl's roster, with fun or fan-favorite extras. The only things cut were characters who were already extras. And I know you feel differently about Wolf, but really, he's a less significant character to his series than the Star Fox team characters, as well as the real villain Andross.



Plus, we actually don't know yet if anything has actually been cut.

 

[Spazzy_D]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

Shulk better stay in next Smash. Actually, next Smash should be the ultimate reunion of every Smash character, AND have new characters. The Ultimate Smash Bros.

 

[Twin Shot]

I think the Roster is pretty good.

Only thing I am not a huge fan of at this moment is Dark Pit. I have never played Uprising, but I am sure that once the game comes out I will enjoy playing his character and may even go check out the entirety of the KI series if I enjoy him and Palutena.

Kind of wish that since they did that with Pit, that they would do it with Dark Link or Blood Falcon as well. Because, why not?

Love that Doc is back. I hate cuts and I preferred him over Mario.

My working theory is that IF the 5 roster spots are actually filled, then we will be getting mostly veterans back. As I stated before, Sakurai stated we are nearing the bottom of the barrel in new character announcements. Can't see Ridley, Dixie, AND Krool all being announced as it wouldn't be "nearing the bottom of the barrel" anymore. Still have Duck Hunt and Kid Koopas to announce.

Makes me think that if the 5 spots are used, they will most likely be vets: Snake, Mewtwo, Lucas, Wolf, Climbers.

If you work towards the theory that Gematsu was early information, then Lucas or Mewtwo could be swapped out for a Chorus Peepoles (especially if they did get IC to work)

 

[MagnesD3]

Well, there was no way Sonic was going anywhere. Since Brawl, there have been so many Mario/Sonic crossovers, not to mention Nintendo exclusive Sonic games. We don't even know yet if Snake really is gone, but it shouldn't be surprising if he's gone and Sonic isn't.



Brawl saddened me because Mewtwo is my favorite Pokemon. That doesn't stop me from seeing how obvious it is that Brawl has a bigger, better roster than Melee.

There are plenty of fans for every character, and I agree that losing Lucas is ****ty. But the loss isn't as dramatic as some people would like to make it out to be.

The Ice Climbers were unique, but they were broken. It'd be pretty impossible to make a dual character of that nature without the character feeling unbalanced; it's two characters for one. They can both hold items, and they can chain grab.

The loss of a few characters who were similar to others, difficult to balance, or otherwise difficult to re-implement is, of course, sad. People like Wolf, Lucas, Ice Climbers, Snake, Mewtwo, Roy, Dr. Mario, even Pichu. And people are free to hold their opinions that this roster is worse than Brawl's, or the worst roster of all time, if they so wish. But that doesn't mean you can look down on my opinions either.

However sad the cuts are, they are more than made up for by the large amount of unique newcomers in addition to the massive amount of extra material in the game. Now, my intention is not to look down on people, but in my opinion, those who believe that the loss of a few characters who really aren't as important as they'd like to think makes Brawl a better roster than the new game are just upset that their favorite character didn't make it.

It's reasonable to be upset by that, but is the loss really so great that it's okay to ignore all the new material? It comes off to me as whiny. The fact that a potentially 50+ character roster with all the staples we would expect is seen as less than a 35 character roster simply because a few less staple-ey characters didn't make it.



The problem with comparing the additions of this roster to the additions of Brawl is that Brawl already added the most important characters we hadn't seen, such as Wario, King Dedede, Meta Knight, and Diddy Kong. After the additions of these necessities, anything else is pretty much extra.

And that's what this game's roster is. It's Brawl's roster, with fun or fan-favorite extras. The only things cut were characters who were already extras. And I know you feel differently about Wolf, but really, he's a less significant character to his series than the Star Fox team characters, as well as the real villain Andross.



Plus, we actually don't know yet if anything has actually been cut.

Wolf is the leader of star wolf who is the star fox teams rivals so he is a very important character. As for fan favorites I only see Megaman and Little Mac, everyone else is a niche fest. Also for missing important characters there are plenty Metroid is missing their main villain, dk is missing thier heroine and villian, Zelda is missing the last of the important and consistent Zelda characters, pokemon is missing their iconic legendary pokemon, and all these cuts just help destroy the roster even more.

 

[FlareHabanero]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

In 7 years, people still won't get Mewtwo, Ridley, or King K. Rool and they will be outraged.

 

[Naoshi]

Once again, my point is that some people might care for the cut characters more than any of the newcomers. Everyone has their own taste in characters. Yes, they should try out the newcomers first, it can grow on them. And it does not matter whether you can't handle controlling Ice Climbers or whoever else or not, I don't see how that is relevent if the other person can control them just fine.

But I understand the frustration, but I don't agree with them, but I still understand the frustration. And I'm not really understanding why you keep bringing up the "fan favorite" and "extras" when that shouldn't always matter to them. People have grown to like some of these characters, should we really tell them "stop caring about your character because it's not popular!" because this is honestly the impression I'm getting from your argument now.


EDIT: I just reread your post. Where did I ever say I'm looking down on your opinion? lol Or is that referring to other people? Your opinion on the roster is perfectly fine, no harm man.

 

[MagnesD3]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

Depends if dark pit actually becomes important or if he is a clone or not really.

In 7 years, people still won't get Mewtwo, Ridley, or King K. Rool and they will be outraged.

This wouldn't surprise me, sakurai has been foolish in many ways so I wouldn't expect anything more of him tbh, unless he proves me wrong and makes this roster more evened out and this game has some kind of depth to it.

 

[Deleted member]

This wouldn't surprise me, sakurai has been foolish in many ways so I wouldn't expect anything more of him tbh, unless he proves me wrong and makes this roster more evened out and this game has some kind of depth to it.

Foolish =/= Not adding King K. Rool/Ridley/Mewtwo

Foolish would be cuts without adding anything new.
Foolish would be ignoring fan cries to make the gameplay faster, and slowing it down more.

 

[BluePikmin11]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

In 7 years, people will still use popularity as the main factor for a (popular) newcomer's inclusion, ignoring all the main flaws against them pretending as if popularity outweighs all those problems.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Brawl gave us a new Mario rep (Wario I'm counting him), a new dk rep, a new Zelda rep, a new Metroid rep, 2 new Kirby reps, a new star fox rep, a new fire emblem rep, a new earthbound rep, 4 new pokemon reps, 2 3rd party reps, 2 retro reps and a new worthy series with olimar. The only substantial unique and important cut was mewtwo who supposed to be included. This roster was amazing now let's look at smash 4 who ignores the popular franchises.

3 more Mario reps, 2 more kid Icarus reps, 1 more pokemon rep with 3 unique character cuts including mewtwo, minus 1 important starfox rep, minus one 2 time vet, 2 3rd parties added with one cut, 1 earthbound cut, 2 fire emblem reps, 1 retro addition, and 4 new series only 2 which deserved to be in, and 3 custom fighters. This roster is awful In comparison to brawl, classics are being ignored, bias is being implemented, marketing controls this roster stupidly.

You know what the biggest complaint about Brawl's roster at the time was? Where are all the new series. People ******* about the fact that Pikmin was the only new first party franchise in the game (no one seemed to count ROB for some reason.)

This game? Sakurai introduces 7 new first party IPs and two new 3rd party IPs, and everyone is ******** about that fact that "old franchises didn't get new reps!"

He really can't win.

Depends if dark pit actually becomes important or if he is a clone or not really.


This wouldn't surprise me, sakurai has been foolish in many ways so I wouldn't expect anything more of him tbh, unless he proves me wrong and makes this roster more evened out and this game has some kind of depth to it.

Dark Pit IS an important character in Kid Icarus (and he is NOT Pit.) The real question is whether or not we will get a new Kid Icarus game.

 

[MagnesD3]

In 7 years, people will still use popularity as the main factor for a (popular) newcomer's inclusion, ignoring all the main flaws against them pretending as if popularity outweighs all those problems.

Importance/iconic ness and popularity SHOULD be the reason you get into a game were its "supposed" to be about Nintendo all stars but to sakurai this time marketing is the most important factor.

 

[Deleted member]

Importance/iconic ness and popularity SHOULD be the reason you get into a game were its "supposed" to be about Nintendo all stars but to sakurai this time marketing is the most important factor.

What is marketing?

 

[MagnesD3]

You know what the biggest complaint about Brawl's roster at the time was? Where are all the new series. People *****ed about the fact that Pikmin was the only new first party franchise in the game (no one seemed to count ROB for some reason.)

This game? Sakurai introduces 7 new first party IPs and two new 3rd party IPs, and everyone is *****ing about that fact that "old franchises didn't get new reps!"

He really can't win.



Dark Pit IS an important character in Kid Icarus (and he is NOT Pit.) The real question is whether or not we will get a new Kid Icarus game.

Dark pit has to establish his importance in the universe first by being in multiple games and mattering.

As for people complaining about brawl they are stupid, 5 new franchises were brought to the table and all the classics weren't ignored and there was only 1 significant cut.


Smash 4 is a train wreck.

What is marketing?

Like I said in earlier posts the only 2 characters we got on popularity were Megaman and little Mac and one if them isn't even Nintendo...

 

[Burruni]

I'm gonna talk about a different perspective with the roster. A lot of people talk about how little old franchises are being added to.
But what about expanding out to show the wide range of IPs that Nintendo has of many unique characters?

64 had 12 characters from effectively 10 franchises ( is the only real one to debate). One real clone added.

Melee added in 14 newcomers in 13 slots. Of these, only 3 new series were represented (two being retros ) and the only other one being Fire Emblem (). It namely gave some of the larger franchises (namely Mario, Zelda, and arguably Star Fox) all that they really needed. Also, 6 clones added, leaving only 8 "original" characters.

Brawl had 18 newcomers within 15 slots. Of them, 5 new series were represented , two more retros (at the time, ), and two 3rd Party characters (). DK, Mother, Pokemon, Kirby, Star Fox, and arguably Metroid all got the full flushing out in the roster, most of the big titles being "capped." 3 clones, 15 original characters.

Now when we look at the Sm4sh roster. We have 14 officially announced newcomers, 12 slots. Of these, only 5 are from old franchises (, , , , and ). 1 clone and 13 original characters. There are 7 new franchises being represented as is. Include the unofficially-confirmed Bowser Jr., and Mario by all means has the characters that really encompass the core series. If the rest of the ESRB leak is real, we have one other series out of the other 2 newcomers to be represented, Duck Hunt.

As I have stated in previous posts, if we truly have 5 slots left (which would lead to 6x9 on 3DS with Mii fighters as a submenu and 5x11 on Wii U), I suspect that only 2 or maybe 3 will be newcomers. I stand by a Rhythm Heaven character being one of the very few non-leaked newcomers, which would be 9 franchises newly represented in Smash Bros., a number only beaten by the original.

That's part of what makes Smash as great as it is. People discovering new Nintendo Franchises and great games they enjoy through it. I discovered Mother, Star Fox, Metroid, Fire Emblem, and Xenoblade through this series, and showing off the new and old alike is what makes Smash a gaming exploration of Nintendo's vast library.

64 was a revolutionary title, Melee had a great engine but a mediocre roster, Brawl had a great roster but with some real drops in points of the gameplay, I feel Sm4sh is gonna give us a rock solid selection of characters, an engine that works great, and will truly raise the bar for all subsequent installments of Smash.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I for one really liked the newcomer selection much more in Brawl compared to this game. Except for the lack of Mewtwo.

Brawl gave us missing MVPs: Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Metaknight, Pokemon Trainer, Olimar, and to a lesser extent Lucario, Ike, Wolf.

This game we have not gotten a single one (announced)
I absolutely understand.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

In 7 years, when the new Smash is on the cusp of coming out, people will be outraged at the fact that Dark Pit might be cut.

look at Mewtwo, in melee no one gave a crap about him but when he was cut in brawl everyone flipped their s**t.

 

[Spazzy_D]

In 7 years, people still won't get Mewtwo, Ridley, or King K. Rool and they will be outraged.

Honest opinions: Mewtwo might be in this game already and if he is not he is very likely to be DLC if Smash 4 ends up going down that route. If his popularity remains constant there is no reason he wouldn't return for Smash 5. (I actually feel the same way about Wolf.)

If K. Rool comes back to the DKC series between Smash 4 and 5 as the main antagonist he will almost certainly make it into the next Smash Bros. game. If he does not then I believe his chance to be very low.

Ridley has been my most wanted character since Melee. I unfortunately don't see him getting into the game as long as Sakurai is the director, though. Maybe he could make it if he was retooled into a more Smash friendly form in a future Metroid title.

@ M MagnesD3 Palutena got in based on popularity. She was top 3 (not including cut vets) in Japan. Same could be argued for a lot of the other new comers..... Animal Crossing is bigger then Star Fox ever was.

 

[?????????????]

Wolf is the leader of star wolf who is the star fox teams rivals so he is a very important character. As for fan favorites I only see Megaman and Little Mac, everyone else is a niche fest. Also for missing important characters there are plenty Metroid is missing their main villain, dk is missing thier heroine and villian, Zelda is missing the last of the important and consistent Zelda characters, pokemon is missing their iconic legendary pokemon, and all these cuts just help destroy the roster even more.

Star Wolf is present in 3 out of 5 Star Fox games, a little over half of a tiny series. He appears a couple times in 64, making him little more than a boss battle that occurs more than once. Assault and Command give him larger roles, even playable roles, but they still aren't as big as any core Star Fox member, nor are they as big as Andross' appearances as a boss. Wolf is cool, but he's not as important as Falco or any other character from the game, nor is he a necessity for Super Smash Bros.

Characters besides Mega Man and Little Mac didn't just magically appear willy-nilly. The developers brainstormed characters that could offer something good for the series, or were otherwise popular. You seem so quick to ignore the significance of these additions.

I agree that Metroid is missing their main, obvious villain, and I hope he comes to be, but if he doesn't, he'll probably be a stage hazard, hinting that Sakurai acknowledges the importance of the character, but finds difficulty in making him playable.

Dixie Kong is little more than a secondary sidekick, and King K. Rool hasn't been a villain in a long time. I agree they're both very important characters, but not necessities.

I don't even know who you mean for Zelda, unless you're talking about Impa. Impa doesn't even have a sure-fire recurring role in her series. Is she a Sheikah? Is she an old sage? Is she a large, burly woman? Does she even stack up to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf? I don't believe so.

I really hope Mewtwo returns. But they don't have the time to make a roster so big that everyone's dreams come true. If a few cuts are there to insure an overall amazing roster in a reasonable amount of time, so be it.

Once again, my point is that some people might care for the cut characters more than any of the newcomers. Everyone has their own taste in characters. Yes, they should try out the newcomers first, it can grow on them. And it does not matter whether you can't handle controlling Ice Climbers or whoever else or not, I don't see how that is relevent if the other person can control them just fine.

But I understand the frustration, but I don't agree with them, but I still understand the frustration. And I'm not really understanding why you keep bringing up the "fan favorite" and "extras" when that shouldn't always matter to them. People have grown to like some of these characters, should we really tell them "stop caring about your character because it's not popular!" because this is honestly the impression I'm getting from your argument now.


EDIT: I just reread your post. Where did I ever say I'm looking down on your opinion? lol Or is that referring to other people? Your opinion on the roster is perfectly fine, no harm man.

I never said anything about controlling the Ice Climbers; they're simply unbalanced. No other character can chain grab, and no one can defend against it. It's not about control; it's, plain and simple, a cheap tactic.

I'm not saying anything about "popularity" either. If "popularity" was the be-all, end-all factor, we'd still have Mewtwo, we never would have seen Wii Fit Trainer, and Geno would be in Brawl. What I am trying to convey is that, at the same time, many characters we may believe to be great are expendable in the grand scheme, as evidenced by the fact cuts exist.

My only problem is with comments like this:

Importance/iconic ness and popularity SHOULD be the reason you get into a game were its "supposed" to be about Nintendo all stars but to sakurai this time marketing is the most important factor.

Dark pit has to establish his importance in the universe first by being in multiple games and mattering.

As for people complaining about brawl they are stupid, 5 new franchises were brought to the table and all the classics weren't ignored and there was only 1 significant cut.


Smash 4 is a train wreck.


Like I said in earlier posts the only 2 characters we got on popularity were Megaman and little Mac and one if them isn't even Nintendo...

And I just want to make it clear, it is not my intention to look down on opinions, but I do hold opposing opinions.

 

[Lady Byakugan]

Mewtwo needs to come back, he's way more relevant than lucario in pokemon now

 

[Deleted member]

I love how people say that this roster is all marketing yet they are like "If X character could reappear than they could be in Smash Bros.!" "X character is relevant right now!"

If Mewtwo is added, it would be marketing, which people seem to hate

 

[~Krystal~]

Mewtwo needs to come back, he's way more relevant than lucario in pokemon now

Lucario is the poster child for Mega Evolutions, but I would wager that Mewtwo is still more popular. He's a Pokemon who I believe is in the top 3 with Pikachu and Charizard. If they can figure out a way to bring him back with a reworked/buffed/WHATEVER or completely new skillset, I would be thrilled.

 

[DraginHikari]

Brawl gave us a new Mario rep (Wario I'm counting him), a new dk rep, a new Zelda rep, a new Metroid rep, 2 new Kirby reps, a new star fox rep, a new fire emblem rep, a new earthbound rep, 4 new pokemon reps, 2 3rd party reps, 2 retro reps and a new worthy series with olimar. The only substantial unique and important cut was mewtwo who supposed to be included. This roster was amazing now let's look at smash 4 who ignores the popular franchises.

3 more Mario reps, 2 more kid Icarus reps, 1 more pokemon rep with 3 unique character cuts including mewtwo, minus 1 important starfox rep, minus one 2 time vet, 2 3rd parties added with one cut, 1 earthbound cut, 2 fire emblem reps, 1 retro addition, and 4 new series only 2 which deserved to be in, and 3 custom fighters. This roster is awful In comparison to brawl, classics are being ignored, bias is being implemented, marketing controls this roster stupidly.

It's all opinion and perspective. The 'good' roster is always going to be based on the bias and perspective of the person who is viewing that roster and the one that is creating them.

The situation for me is pretty simple, though I did not dislike it, Brawl's roster didn't particularly wow me or impress me heavily at the time of its released that doesn't mean the roster inherently bad it just means that it did do anything for me specifically. That's going to be the biggest thing with any roster.

Unlike Brawl, Smash 4 included quite a few of newcomers that I both wanted and characters that surprised me in a number of ways Shulk, Palutena, Megaman, and Little Mac got me excited with Rosalina, Greninja, Wii Fit Trainer and even the rumoured Duck Hunt turned out to be very pleasant surprise so in comparison to your opinion I think the Smash 4's roster is excellent compared to Brawl even if all my characters on my list don't get it.

The fact is there is no such thing a perfect roster there never can be and there never will be. This is a very important and vital point when approaching these rosters and how I've always approached them, which is why it didn't bother me in Brawl when I didn't get who I wanted.

 

[Naoshi]

I never said anything about controlling the Ice Climbers; they're simply unbalanced. No other character can chain grab, and no one can defend against it. It's not about control; it's, plain and simple, a cheap tactic.

I'm not saying anything about "popularity" either. If "popularity" was the be-all, end-all factor, we'd still have Mewtwo, we never would have seen Wii Fit Trainer, and Geno would be in Brawl. What I am trying to convey is that, at the same time, many characters we may believe to be great are expendable in the grand scheme, as evidenced by the fact cuts exist.

My only problem is with comments like this:




And I just want to make it clear, it is not my intention to look down on opinions, but I do hold opposing opinions.

Fair enough! Those posts (you've posted as example) comes across as overly aggressive and jumping onto conclusions. Sorry for the mix up, just that your post sort of gave me the wrong impression or that I've misread you. But it's all good now.

On a side note of that post: I do sort of agree that parts of Smash Bros 4 feels like marketing, but really because of the stage roster. Really surprised we got Windy Hill over an iconic Sonic stage and an Other M stage, a game that is not very well received. And we get 2 Pokemon XY stages while the old generations are left in the dust. (Kanto is really iconic, sad to see there's no representation for that.) But I feel the newcomers in the roster are chosen fine, lots of old and new there!

As for Ice Climbers, they could probably find a way to nerf that? IDK, still sad to see them go.

 

[Deleted member]

Like I said in earlier posts the only 2 characters we got on popularity were Megaman and little Mac and one if them isn't even Nintendo...

Dark Pit is popular.
Palutena and Shulk were among the most wanted characters in Japan, while still being popular overseas.
Lucina was promoted to playable due to her popularity.
Robin (here at least) is more popular than Chrom, and was possibly the most popular potential FE character.
Rosalina is one of the more popular Mario characters. Note that she was announced before Bowser Jr.; the "obvious" 5th Mario character.
Greninja is also quite popular, though he was added because Sakurai liked his design. Being popular is just lucky.

 

[Knuckles the Knuckles]

Lucario is the poster child for Mega Evolutions

Well actually, funny thing, Mewtwo is moreso that than Lucario. He was the first pokemon used to show it off when we didnt knew what it was, and he got two of them in the end, something only other super popular pokemon like Charizard got.

 

[MagnesD3]

Star Wolf is present in 3 out of 5 Star Fox games, a little over half of a tiny series. He appears a couple times in 64, making him little more than a boss battle that occurs more than once. Assault and Command give him larger roles, even playable roles, but they still aren't as big as any core Star Fox member, nor are they as big as Andross' appearances as a boss. Wolf is cool, but he's not as important as Falco or any other character from the game, nor is he a necessity for Super Smash Bros.

Characters besides Mega Man and Little Mac didn't just magically appear willy-nilly. The developers brainstormed characters that could offer something good for the series, or were otherwise popular. You seem so quick to ignore the significance of these additions.

I agree that Metroid is missing their main, obvious villain, and I hope he comes to be, but if he doesn't, he'll probably be a stage hazard, hinting that Sakurai acknowledges the importance of the character, but finds difficulty in making him playable.

Dixie Kong is little more than a secondary sidekick, and King K. Rool hasn't been a villain in a long time. I agree they're both very important characters, but not necessities.

I don't even know who you mean for Zelda, unless you're talking about Impa. Impa doesn't even have a sure-fire recurring role in her series. Is she a Sheikah? Is she an old sage? Is she a large, burly woman? Does she even stack up to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf? I don't believe so.

I really hope Mewtwo returns. But they don't have the time to make a roster so big that everyone's dreams come true. If a few cuts are there to insure an overall amazing roster in a reasonable amount of time, so be it.



I never said anything about controlling the Ice Climbers; they're simply unbalanced. No other character can chain grab, and no one can defend against it. It's not about control; it's, plain and simple, a cheap tactic.

I'm not saying anything about "popularity" either. If "popularity" was the be-all, end-all factor, we'd still have Mewtwo, we never would have seen Wii Fit Trainer, and Geno would be in Brawl. What I am trying to convey is that, at the same time, many characters we may believe to be great are expendable in the grand scheme, as evidenced by the fact cuts exist.

My only problem is with comments like this:




And I just want to make it clear, it is not my intention to look down on opinions, but I do hold opposing opinions.

I definatetly don't agree on your stance with wolf. Fox had 4 co pilots but only one main rival. Wolf is the metaknight if the series, falco is just second in command. But I'm not gonna change your opinion on that so it's whatever.

Yes I was talking about impa since she is a consistent character who is also cursed by demise and is Zelda's protector/teacher.

 

[?????????????]

Fair enough! Those posts (you've posted as example) comes across as overly aggressive and jumping onto conclusions. Sorry for the mix up, just that your post sort of gave me the wrong impression or that I've misread you. But it's all good now.

On a side note of that post: I do sort of agree that parts of Smash Bros 4 feels like marketing, but really because of the stage roster. Really surprised we got Windy Hill over an iconic Sonic stage and an Other M stage, a game that is not very well received. And we get 2 Pokemon XY stages while the old generations are left in the dust. (Kanto is really iconic, sad to see there's no representation for that.) But I feel the newcomers in the roster are chosen fine, lots of old and new there!

As for Ice Climbers, they could probably find a way to nerf that? IDK, still sad to see them go.

Sorry to come off as aggressive! Inflection is difficult to portray in written words as opposed to spoken.

It's not too surprising that they would want to portray their newest games through stages; haven't they always done that, like Spear Pillar and Delfino Plaza? My mindset on it is as a showcase of what the characters have done/accomplished since the last Smash game. More stages are something that could easily be DLC though, like if they had downloadable packs of older stages. Maybe just wishful thinking, but that'd be cool.

Nerfing the Ice Climbers would involve changing them in a way that doesn't make them a fully dual character. It might even be as simple as taking away Nana's ability to grab. But then, what's the point of them being a dual character? It's tricky because they've always been a dual character in SSB, but that fact is what's making them broken.

From a character standpoint, making them a dual character makes as much sense as making Mario and Luigi dual characters or Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong dual characters; the game "Ice Climber" can be played single player (as just Popo) as well as two player. For this reason, many have proposed a stand-alone Popo as an ice user/hammer wielder, though just as many feel this is too dramatic for what is now a classic SSB icon. So it's a touchy subject.

 

[ElPanandero]

Brawl gave us a new Mario rep (Wario I'm counting him), a new dk rep, a new Zelda rep, a new Metroid rep, 2 new Kirby reps, a new star fox rep, a new fire emblem rep, a new earthbound rep, 4 new pokemon reps, 2 3rd party reps, 2 retro reps and a new worthy series with olimar. The only substantial unique and important cut was mewtwo who supposed to be included. This roster was amazing now let's look at smash 4 who ignores the popular franchises.

3 more Mario reps, 2 more kid Icarus reps, 1 more pokemon rep with 3 unique character cuts including mewtwo, minus 1 important starfox rep, minus one 2 time vet, 2 3rd parties added with one cut, 1 earthbound cut, 2 fire emblem reps, 1 retro addition, and 4 new series only 2 which deserved to be in, and 3 custom fighters. This roster is awful In comparison to brawl, classics are being ignored, bias is being implemented, marketing controls this roster stupidly.

Clones shoudn't count as "reps" because they weren't planned and didn't replace anyone. So thats one less, mario, KI, and FE reps. The pokemon cuts were necessary because 8 or 9 pokemon would be much to big a chunk of the roster. They replaced squirtle spiritually, really just leaving Ivysaur, a justifiable cut. If Wolf is cut, it's justifiable, Wolf is relatively minor (as we've talked extensively of) as only a minor villain/anti-hero (if hes even cut). Earhtbound is an increibly niche franchise thats also dead now, lucas was easily the most expendable character on Brawl's roster (except, imo ROB). FE is a growing franchise, is doing well, and ha sbeen in Ninty's lineup for years. 3 Reps, espicially a unique one in Robin, is hardly a poor choice. Pally deserves to be in (arguably) and considering the rebirth and success of the francise, 2 reps is also not questionable. Animal Crossing is extermely popular, Punch-out is a rebirthed classic, Xenoblade is a successful new IP for Ninty, and the WFT/Mii's while not opopular characters represerent an era of ninty gaming and are as deserving as ROB and G&W (none of which should actually be in imo, but they're all a package deal.) I agree there are some characters who were overlooked, and some franchises that could use some expansion, but I wouldn't call this roster awful by any means.

 

[Naoshi]

Sorry to come off as aggressive! Inflection is difficult to portray in written words as opposed to spoken.

It's not too surprising that they would want to portray their newest games through stages; haven't they always done that, like Spear Pillar and Delfino Plaza? My mindset on it is as a showcase of what the characters have done/accomplished since the last Smash game. More stages are something that could easily be DLC though, like if they had downloadable packs of older stages. Maybe just wishful thinking, but that'd be cool.

Nerfing the Ice Climbers would involve changing them in a way that doesn't make them a fully dual character. It might even be as simple as taking away Nana's ability to grab. But then, what's the point of them being a dual character? It's tricky because they've always been a dual character in SSB, but that fact is what's making them broken.

From a character standpoint, making them a dual character makes as much sense as making Mario and Luigi dual characters or Donkey Kong and Diddy Kong dual characters; the game "Ice Climber" can be played single player (as just Popo) as well as two player. For this reason, many have proposed a stand-alone Popo as an ice user/hammer wielder, though just as many feel this is too dramatic for what is now a classic SSB icon. So it's a touchy subject.

It's okay, it happens to everyone. I'm very guilty of this too! It's all cool!

As for stages, yeah, Brawl has done this too, a good majority of the levels were from the Gamecube era (GC being current considering Brawl was early in the Wii's life) with barely any reference to NES or SNES outside of like 3 or 4 stages with N64 left in the dust. I have actually wrote a document listing stages and what games they have originated from. It kind of gives an insight on the stage roster for each series. Smash Bros 64 somewhat favors N64 but also has a little more pre-N64 era stages while Melee had a nice blend of NES, SNES and N64 (N64 being current and NES, SNES being older as Melee was a near-launch GC title).

What would be cool is if most franchises gets 2 stages each (with more popular franchises like Mario getting more than 2), with one half being the most recent title and another being an old-school stage! Like.. let's say Pokemon gets the XY Elite Four stage and then a Kanto themed stage on Wii U! And Donkey Kong gets a DKCR or DKCTF stage and a DKC1-3 stage. And so on!

Hmmm, well Ice Climbers were never exactly OP-Tier according to the tier lists, so idk... but yeah I guess we'll agree to disagree there! We both see the situation differently and that's fine!

 

[~Krystal~]

Well actually, funny thing, Mewtwo is moreso that than Lucario. He was the first pokemon used to show it off when we didnt knew what it was, and he got two of them in the end, something only other super popular pokemon like Charizard got.

Not bad.

 

[?????????????]

I definatetly don't agree on your stance with wolf. Fox had 4 co pilots but only one main rival. Wolf is the metaknight if the series, falco is just second in command. But I'm not gonna change your opinion on that so it's whatever.

Who is a more important Sonic character: Tails or Shadow? I say Tails, but many disagree with me.

The principle is the same. It's an age-old argument of what's more important between the sidekicks and the rival. I believe the sidekicks are more important because we see their interaction and participation with the main character more often, making them generally more consistent characters. To me, that's more important then the occasionally appearing rival.