Character Discussion Thread

[MagnesD3]

Why are you ignoring "newschool" Nintendo fans? We should celebrate Nintendo's growth; that's what newcomers do. They don't all have to be old characters, plus we've gotten plenty of those to balance out the new ones.



By whose standards? Yours? "Merit for inclusion" means nothing for anybody besides the one making the game, who clearly disagrees with your opinions.

Sakurai should be embracing both but its clear that certain classic and popular franchises are being ignored in this game. And yes I think I logically know how and why characters should be included in the roster of a game meant to be an ALL STAR battle royale. And hell no sakurai wouldnt agree with me, the man added PICHU one of the most laughable things ever (besides tripping.)

 

[DraginHikari]

Merit for inclusion can be factual.

In order for that to be true there has to thoroughly tested and agreed upon set of standards to make something a objective fact.
That standard does not exist in this situation as the general opinion of the Smash Community and even the developers is incredibly diverse and the opinions are spread enough apart where you can't prove something absolutely right or wrong in the sense of objectivity. There is no common thread or focus on the issues to make that reasonable to even test.

There is no scientific method you could impose to prove this objectively beyond a shadow of a doubt as such it is still an opinion not a fact.

 

[MagnesD3]

Yes, but those are actually good characters. It's not like they added any old random ****ty character just because she was a girl.

Out of those villager and palutena had good solid reasons to be included (I suppose I dont mind Wii fit trainer for how important that series is apparently sales wise) all the others were hogwash for the females at least (also miis were a good history piece).

 

[Capt. Butt Stallion]

I have to ask you guys something. How long does it take for a character not to be considered "new"? Because most of the characters are over 5 years old. In fact, the only ones that are "younger" than that are Shulk, Greninja, Robin, Lucina and Dark Pit.

 

[SANCHOCO]

ignoring the bottom screen, what is on the top?

To me it looks like Gaur Plains

 

[?????????????]

Sakurai should be embracing both but its clear that the classic and popular franchises are being ignored in this game.

Out of those villager and palutena had good solid reasons to be included (I suppose I dont mind Wii fit trainer for how important that series is apparently sales wise) all the others were hogwash for the females at least (also miis were a good history piece).

...I don't think I even have to respond to these posts. They're so highly opinionated in misconstrued ways, I think they speak for themselves as to why they're so ignorable.

 

[MagnesD3]

In order for that to be true there has to thoroughly tested and agreed upon set of standards to make something a objective fact.
That standard does not exist in this situation as the general opinion of the Smash Community and even the developers is incredibly diverse and the opinions are spread enough apart where you can't prove something absolutely right or wrong in the sense of objectivity. There is no common thread or focus on the issues to make that reasonable to even test.

There is no scientific method you could impose to prove this objectively beyond a shadow of a doubt as such it is still an opinion not a fact.

Im basically saying what I logically deduce ignore my emotions is what I consider to be true. Aka the general opinion is filled with alot of ignorant people, It would take someone to make good reason for me to even consider their opinion having some merit to it. Im saying that what I deduce is legit. (and yes this pompous as ****) It would take a consensus of logically sound people to have a good definition of merit. But since thats hard to come by I just use my logical reasoning.

 

[?????????????]

Im basically saying what I logically deduce ignore my emotions is what I consider to be true. Aka the general opinion is filled with alot of ignorant people, It would take someone to make good reason for me to even consider their opinion having some merit to it. Im saying that what I deduce is legit. (and yes this pompous as ****) It would take a consensus of logically sound people to have a good definition of merit.

It's not good enough that the actual creator of the series and his team believes they have merit?

 

[pupNapoleon]

How is this roster possibly worse than Brawl's? It's pretty much Brawl's roster with more.

Assuming Wolf, Lucas, Ice Climbers, and Snake really are cut, what are we really losing? Wolf is great, but did people really clamor for him as a newcomer in Brawl? His inclusion was kinda "eh," and his role in the Star Fox series itself isn't even that impressive. He's an obligatory rival that appears in half the games for a fight or two, and doesn't serve as a primary antagonist. Even when he's in games where he has a greater role, it's still not as large as the core Star Fox team.

I love Lucas, and I love MOTHER 3, and I hate the prospect that those elements may be diminished. But we all knew that, if it came between Ness and Lucas, Ness is more traditional and more recognized internationally. Additionally, Ness and Lucas share pretty much the same exact pool of powers in their respective games, so we're not losing anything major playstyle-wise.

Ice Climbers are Smash traditional at this point, but does anyone really care about the character? I thought Ice Climber was an "okay" game, and their playstyle in SSB was pretty cheap. If Duck Hunt Dog is real, I think that'd be a better character from a better game, not to mention Pit and Little Mac.

No one expected Snake in the first place. He was a great addition, but even now, no one really attributes him to Nintendo save for SSB itself. I'll miss him, but it's not the worst loss we could have. It's not like we lost Meta Knight or Diddy Kong or someone truly important to Nintendo franchises. In fact, I don't think any of these potential cuts are as bad as Mewtwo's.

Stack these cuts against the fantastic newcomers we have gotten. How could this roster possibly be worse?

You fail to mention the biggest loss, in Pokemon Trainer, and shame on you sir. Shame on your mother, and your entire lineage.

 

[MagnesD3]

It's not good enough that the actual creator of the series and his team believes they have merit?

No. Look sakurai is a brilliant designer, he has designed some amazing characters and modes and hell the fighting system. But when it comes to balance, roster inclusion, and depth he just does what he wants and thats how its always gonna be and how it always has been as long as he has been director. Im thankful for him creating this series but he has quite a few flaws when it comes to certain things in the game.

 

[Oblivion129]

I really like this roster better than Brawl's. Why?
Because I was part of the character speculation for Brawl and part of that group that preferred Mega Man and Ridley over R.O.B.
Of course, looking back at it now, we got awesome characters like MK, DeDeDe, Wario and Diddy, but the speculation crowd is always expecting something more.
It's all about perception.

 

[Deleted member]

No. Look sakurai is a brilliant designer, he has designed some amazing characters and modes and hell the fighting system. But when it comes to balance, roster inclusion, and depth he just does what he wants and thats how its always gonna be and how it always has been as long as he has been director. Im thankful for him creating this series but he has quite a few flaws when it comes to certain things in the game.

Roster is highly subjective. You can't say that's a flaw unbiasedly.

 

[?????????????]

No. Look sakurai is a brilliant designer, he has designed some amazing characters and modes and hell the fighting system. But when it comes to balance, roster inclusion, and depth he just does what he wants and thats how its always gonna be and how it always has been as long as he has been director. Im thankful for him creating this series but he has quite a few flaws when it comes to certain things in the game.

Sakurai is not alone. He has Namco working with him, and the 2nd and 3rd party companies like GAMEFREAK, Intelligent Systems, SEGA, and Capcom also get a say when it comes to what they want in the roster and characters. I would image that even the 1st party developers get a say in what Sakurai is doing with their characters. This is a combined effort, not a one-man show. The collective thought of many developers went into this game.

 

[DraginHikari]

Im basically saying what I logically deduce ignore my emotions is what I consider to be true. Aka the general opinion is filled with alot of ignorant people, It would take someone to make good reason for me to even consider their opinion having some merit to it. Im saying that what I deduce is legit. (and yes this pompous as ****) It would take a consensus of logically sound people to have a good definition of merit. But since thats hard to come by I just use my logical reasoning.

Then your not talking about facts, your talking about giving a perspective from your view and considering your statements resembling facts because you think the general opinion is ignorant, which is merely cloaking your opinion behind what you claim is logic. Removing emotion entirely from a opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion.

If you make a statement and someone says I don't agree for this reason, unless you can prove with evidence and objective fact that the person is wrong, the person is not wrong therefore it isn't a fact. The character roster merits cannot be tested objectively so they are not facts.

 

[MagnesD3]

Roster is highly subjective. You can't say that's a flaw unbiasedly.

Yes I can, from looking at all of the smash games.

Sakurai is not alone. He has Namco working with him, and the 2nd and 3rd party companies like GAMEFREAK, Intelligent Systems, SEGA, and Capcom also get a say when it comes to what they want in the roster and characters. I would image that even the 1st party developers get a say in what Sakurai is doing with their characters. This is a combined effort, not a one-man show. The collective thought of many developers went into this game.

Yes very true, It would be very wrong of me just to blame sakurai but he is the head honcho and he most likely gets the final call on what goes in and what doesnt.

Then your not talking about facts, your talking about giving a perspective from your view and considering your statements resembling facts because you think the general opinion is ignorant, which is merely cloaking your opinion behind what you claim is logic. Removing emotion entirely from a opinion doesn't make it any less of an opinion.

If you make a statement and someone says I don't agree for this reason, unless you can prove with evidence and objective fact that the person is wrong, the person is not wrong therefore it isn't a fact. The character roster merits cannot be tested objectively so they are not facts.

Not everyone will believe the evidence they are given due to their emotions.

 

[GunGunW]

I have to ask you guys something. How long does it take for a character not to be considered "new"? Because most of the characters are over 5 years old. In fact, the only ones that are "younger" than that are Shulk, Greninja, Robin, Lucina and Dark Pit.

I would say in relation to how long the series has been around. I still consider Rosalina to be fairly new even though Bowser Jr. has blended in a bit more.

 

[?????????????]

Yes very true, It would be very wrong of me just to blame sakurai but he is the head honcho and he most likely gets the final call on what goes in and what doesnt.

So now, what you are telling me is that your opinion on a video game is better than the collective opinion of many video game developers, when you yourself are not a video game developer? Even when that collective opinion is largely based on the general opinion?

 

[Deleted member]

Yes I can, from looking at all of the smash games.

No, you can't. That makes no sense.

I'd assume that you arriving to that conclusion is due to cuts, which would mean it is your opinion that this roster is the worst.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Brawl gave us missing MVPs: Wario, Diddy, Dedede, Metaknight, Pokemon Trainer, and to a lesser extent Lucario, Ike, Wolf.

This game we have not gotten a single one (announced)
I absolutely understand.

Personally I think Little Mac and Palutena are all-stars out of the announced characters, Villager to an extent as well. No one else really. Especially Rosalina and Greninja, maybe even Shulk.

 

[MagnesD3]

So now, what you are telling me is that your opinion on a video game is better than the collective opinion of many video game developers, when you yourself are not a video game developer? Even when that collective opinion is largely based on the general opinion?

I plan on being a game designer one day myself and I plan to learn lessons on the faults of the developers of the pasts. Even though I play video games for fun I also look at all of them from a design standpoint to see what worked well and what didnt, I play All kinds of very good games trying to figure out what each of them does best so I can one day incorporate and improve upon those mechanics as well as fix faults within them. And yes I will hold these developers to their faults, its not like one day I wont have faults as a developer as well the difference is I will be willing to listen and try to improve and correct these faults instead of ignoring them.

Personally I think Little Mac and Palutena are all-stars out of the announced characters. No one else really.

5 characters are avatars for christs sake. The AC rep should have been Tom Nook in reality, he is much more Iconic, but I digress.

 

[SuperNintendoKid]

I would say in relation to how long the series has been around. I still consider Rosalina to be fairly new even though Bowser Jr. has blended in a bit more.

i say characters before brawl aren't new anymore, just like how I think now the Gamecube and is a retro console, the DS still has two or more years till i think its a retro video game system.

 

[Spazzy_D]

"Old school Nintendo fans." I'm tired of all you kids talking like you're old guard.

A lot of old school fans don't care about Mewtwo or Pokemon. Most of us think that Bowser Jr. is a terrible character. We are actually excited about the Koopalings, though.

We are also pretty happy about the roster... there is so much old school love in this game. Little Mac? It's about time! Megaman? Are you kidding me!

AND DUCK HUNT DOG! Seriously!!! When I first played Melee (I was in college mind you,) my friends and I were always wondering when Little Mac, Pit, and that dog would get into the game. Those three were some of the last NES first party All Stars.... and now we have them!

 

[GunGunW]

i say characters before brawl aren't new anymore, just like how I think now the Gamecube and is a retro console, the DS still has two or more years till i think its a retro video game system.

I definitely wouldn't consider the GameCube a retro console, personally. Just old news.

 

[?????????????]

I plan on being a game designer one day myself and I plan to learn lessons on the faults of the developers of the pasts. Even though I play video games for fun I also look at all of them from a design standpoint to see what worked well and what didnt, I play All kinds of very good games trying to figure out what each of them does best so I can one day incorporate and improve upon those mechanics as well as fix faults within them. And yes I will hold these developers to their faults, its not like one day I wont have faults as a developer as well the difference is I will be willing to listen and try to improve and correct these faults instead of ignoring them.

Okay, fine, but "faults" are different than what characters people believe should be and want on a roster. It's not a fault; it's simply a different opinion. And neither your opinion, nor mine, nor theirs, nor anyone's are better or more factual than anyone else's.

 

[Capt. Butt Stallion]

Personally I think Little Mac and Palutena are all-stars out of the announced characters. No one else really.

Shulk is insanely popular in Japan. Greninja is the most popular Pokémon from sixth gen. I'll admit Wii Fit Trainer isn't popular, but she comes from an insanely popular series. Lucina is one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters in Japan.

I can keep going, guys.

 

[~Krystal~]

"Old school Nintendo fans." I'm tired of all you kids talking like you're old guard.

A lot of old school fans don't care about Mewtwo or Pokemon. Most of us think that Bowser Jr. is a terrible character. We are actually excited about the Koopalings, though.

We are also pretty happy about the roster... there is so much old school love in this game. Little Mac? It's about time! Megaman? Are you kidding me!

AND DUCK HUNT DOG! Seriously!!! When I first played Melee (I was in college mind you,) my friends and I were always wondering when Little Mac, Pitt, and that dog would get into the game. Those three were some of the last NES first party All Stars.... and now we have them!

Very true my fellow ancient. When I gazed upon this roster on my tablet as I was swaying back and forth in my rocking chair, I couldn't help but smile.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate when people use the term "All-Star" just because of how vague and subjective it is. I'd consider Shulk an "All-Star," but this is coming from a guy who really enjoyed (what he has played of) Xenoblade. Other people clearly do not.

 

[?????????????]

Not to mention that, by these standards, Ike and Lucario, among others, weren't really "All-Stars" (again, by these standards) when they were introduced in Brawl. But you know what? They'll become "all-stars" by everyone's standards simply because they are in this game. Like Lucario and Ike.

 

[MagnesD3]

Okay, fine, but "faults" are different than what characters people believe should be and want on a roster. It's not a fault; it's simply a different opinion. And neither your opinion, nor mine, nor theirs, nor anyone's are better or more factual than anyone else's.

I dont believe that but its fine that you do. If I had control of the roster I would literally list why I chose them to the last detail and why I consider them an Allstar. I probably would have kept that little bio page from Smash 64. (I definitely wouldnt have added a character because one of my friends kids wanted him in...)

 

[?????????????]

I dont believe that but its fine that you do. If I had control of the roster I would literally list why I chose them to the last detail and why I consider them an Allstar. I probably would have kept that little bio page from Smash 64. (I definitely wouldnt have added a character because one of my friends kids wanted him in...)

What if that kid wanted Wolf in?

 

[MagnesD3]

I hate when people use the term "All-Star" just because of how vague and subjective it is. I'd consider Shulk an "All-Star," but this is coming from a guy who really enjoyed (what he has played of) Xenoblade. Other people clearly do not.

Im not saying that game is bad at all, hell it could be the Best game on the planet and (baring popularity I suppose) shulk probably still wouldnt have the merit to be in the game at this point in time. In a couple of years and a game or two later maybe, it shouldnt be that easy to just say someone or something is a nintendo all star there should be thought and reason put into a characters inclusion.

What if that kid wanted Wolf in?

son wolf would have been in melee lol. But if wolf was just some random character then no I wouldnt include him.

 

[Deleted member]

Im not saying that game is bad at all, hell it could be the Best game on the planet and (baring popularity I suppose) shulk probably still wouldnt have the merit to be in the game at this point in time. In a couple of years and a game or two later maybe, it shouldnt be that easy to just say someone or something is a nintendo all star there should be thought and reason put into a characters inclusion.

That is again, your opinion.
Opinion =/= Fact

anyway, how old does a character need to be to be considered an "All-Star"

 

[MagnesD3]

That is again, your opinion.
Opinion =/= Fact

anyway, how old does a character need to be to be considered an "All-Star"

Depends really. There is a reason its called ALL STAR. It shouldnt be an easy mantle to obtain, just look how long it took Little Mac to get in and he was an all star for awhile.

 

[Spazzy_D]

I definitely wouldn't consider the GameCube a retro console, personally. Just old news.

My personal cut off for retro is PS1 and N64, although in my heart retro really ended a gen before that.

 

[?????????????]

Im not saying that game is bad at all, hell it could be the Best game on the planet and (baring popularity I suppose) shulk probably still wouldnt have the merit to be in the game at this point in time. In a couple of years and a game or two later maybe, it shouldnt be that easy to just say someone or something is a nintendo all star there should be thought and reason put into a characters inclusion.


son wolf would have been in melee lol. But if wolf was just some random character then no I wouldnt include him.

So, now you're implying there was no thought or reason put into Shulk's inclusion? You really believe Sakurai and his team just threw him in for fun...no, wait! For promotion. Yeah. That's it.

There's reasons many of us speculated Shulk. We wanted him. Many people wanted him. You're so quick to dismiss anything that doesn't align with your opinion as a bad opinion.

 

[Deleted member]

Depends really. There is a reason its called ALL STAR. It shouldnt be an easy mantle to obtain, just look how long it took Little Mac to get in and he was an all star for awhile.

You know what else it shouldn't be? A mantle at all

By your definition, Mr. Game & Watch should not be playable, because he technically doesn't exist. Ice Climbers/Duck Hunt Dog should not be playable because they are only in one game.

 

[Wyoming]

I love Xenoblade Chronicles and I was delighted to see Shulk in the game. It was maybe foreshadowed a few months ago but seeing confirmation was lovely and that trailer was neat. Xenoblade has the potential to be a very big franchise now with more exposure thanks to Smash. People should be welcoming new series getting into the game not the opposite, especially since we're supposedly losing Metal Gear and Ice Climber in this game.

Robin and Lucina are popular characters from a Fire Emblem game that is highly regarded as the best of the franchise. Robin was a fun choice conceptually and Lucina just got lucky like Dark Pit and Dr. Mario so I can barely count her as a fully-fledged newcomer as she was literally added at the last moment. Her addition was strictly fan service to a certain fan base and she did not take anyone's spot. (I've never played a FE game but I've been meaning to eventually)

Duck Hunt Dog is a call back to the past. A nice addition even though I never played Duck Hunt. A lot of the newcomers were fairly new so seeing a retro character get in was a breath of fresh air.

Greninja adds a Pokémon that isn't Gen 1. It's not like we're in dire need of an original Pokémon and with Squirtle and Ivysaur gone there was more than enough room for him. Pokémon is more than just the Kanto region after all.

Wii Fit Trainer is actually not a bad idea when you really think about it. She's not a character I'm excited about but considering the success of the Wii titles her inclusion does have some merit.

Mac, Villager, Palutena and Mega Man need no second thoughts. Their inclusion makes perfect sense and it almost feels like it was inevitably going to happen.

Pac-Man got a bit lucky himself (If Namco weren't helping with this game, would he be in? Maybe... but I'm heading towards no) but he is a video game icon.

I think the roster is solid. I'm not entirely fond of Miis or Bowser Jr. but what I'm not fond of other people are. The beauty of Smash is how it connects every franchise together, new or old, and they're all (mostly) kept in character from their respective franchises for some smashin' fun. The down side is that means a lot of fan bases collide and it becomes a bit of a mess of who should be in or not. As someone who enjoys pretty much every franchise represented in the game so far those debates do somewhat annoy me as I essentially love each series equally.

I'll miss Wolf not only because he was my main but he is also my favourite Star Fox character. I'll miss Ice Climbers because they became a staple in Smash Bros more than their own series just like Sheik and Jigglypuff. I'll miss Snake as he was such a cool character and Metal Gear content was just an added bonus. I'll miss Lucas because I never knew who he was and finding out about him was awesome. I'll miss the other cuts (Melee and Brawl) as they were Smash veterans. Paper Mario, K. Rool and Black Shadow would have been great additions but I always saw them as 'more hopeful than realistic' choices. I can understand why people are disappointed if they believe their favourite series aren't getting much love (and so far the only series I can see this being true is Donkey Kong. It really isn't getting much considering how big it is, and before you ask Metroid has three assist trophies, multiple confirmed costumes, a new stage and Ridley playing a role in this game. The only prominent character without a role so far is Kraid) though.

It's a shame they couldn't all get in but this roster isn't bad. It still has a lot of All-Stars in it, be it Nintendo or even video games as a whole. I'm still psyched for this game and I want it to come out 2 months ago. Soon the character speculation will come to a close and we'll focus firmly on the very game and its mechanics itself and it will be a breath of fresh air after all this time.

 

[~Krystal~]

In my honest opinion, this roster is par for the course. A solid D-. With Dixie C+. With Krystal, Sakurai is told to stay after class on suspicion of cheating.

 

[MagnesD3]

So, now you're implying there was no thought or reason put into Shulk's inclusion? You really believe Sakurai and his team just threw him in for fun...no, wait! For promotion. Yeah. That's it.

There's reasons many of us speculated Shulk. We wanted him. Many people wanted him. You're so quick to dismiss anything that doesn't align with your opinion as a bad opinion.

Look ive looked at the general consensus and shulk isnt that popular. And to no surprise, he is from a JRPG that was ported over here with little to no marketing on a system that was about dead. Now Ill agree he was popular in japan but its not like he was number over there or anything and tbh shulk really needed more than popularity at this point since he is so new. Sakurai added him because X and because he wanted to throw Japan a bone.

 

[?????????????]

Look ive looked at the general consensus and shulk isnt that popular. And to no surprise, he is from a JRPG that was ported over here with little to no marketing on a system that was about dead. Now Ill agree he was popular in japan but its not like he was number over there or anything and tbh shulk really needed more than popularity at this point since he is so new. Sakurai added him because X and because he wanted to throw Japan a bone.

If Shulk's not that popular, how did his game get ported internationally out of fan demand alone?