Character Discussion Thread

[MagnesD3]

You know what else it shouldn't be? A mantle at all

By your definition, Mr. Game & Watch should not be playable, because he technically doesn't exist. Ice Climbers/Duck Hunt Dog should not be playable because they are only in one game.

Wrong. They are history pieces, yes this game is about All Stars but nintendos history is also apart of that lineup, adding some of the beginning titles like this was a brilliant idea on sakurai's part, retros are a fantastic way to show newer generations where nintendo has come from.

 

[Deleted member]

SHULK ISN'T WOLF

Fixed

 

[pupNapoleon]

Clones shoudn't count as "reps" because they weren't planned and didn't replace anyone. So thats one less, mario, KI, and FE reps. The pokemon cuts were necessary because 8 or 9 pokemon would be much to big a chunk of the roster. They replaced squirtle spiritually, really just leaving Ivysaur, a justifiable cut. If Wolf is cut, it's justifiable, Wolf is relatively minor (as we've talked extensively of) as only a minor villain/anti-hero (if hes even cut). Earhtbound is an increibly niche franchise thats also dead now, lucas was easily the most expendable character on Brawl's roster (except, imo ROB). FE is a growing franchise, is doing well, and ha sbeen in Ninty's lineup for years. 3 Reps, espicially a unique one in Robin, is hardly a poor choice. Pally deserves to be in (arguably) and considering the rebirth and success of the francise, 2 reps is also not questionable. Animal Crossing is extermely popular, Punch-out is a rebirthed classic, Xenoblade is a successful new IP for Ninty, and the WFT/Mii's while not opopular characters represerent an era of ninty gaming and are as deserving as ROB and G&W (none of which should actually be in imo, but they're all a package deal.) I agree there are some characters who were overlooked, and some franchises that could use some expansion, but I wouldn't call this roster awful by any means.

The only way Squirtle can be seen as 'spiritually replaced' is if Greninja is a water starter and there is a suitable grass starter to replace Ivysaur. Otherwise, no, Greninja is just a hapless sixth gen rep who happens to be a water Pokemon starter in the next game. Greninja and Squirtle fight nothing alike, and if you remove the necessary Pokemon battle representation out of it with the starter trio, the essence of Pokemon being gone with both BATTLES and starter pokemon, then not only is Greninja a poor choice, but he has absolutely no connection with Squirtle whatsoever other than being a Pokemon.
The biggest disappointment with this roster for me will be the essence of Pokemon. Up until this game, Sakurai has done a terrific job with catching elements of Pokemon. He understood the importance of trading-in Chrom for Robin, going as far as stating

Not only did he possess characteristics unlike other fighters, but he also captured the essence of the Fire Emblem series. It was perfect!

I can only hope he understands all that Pokemon is missing just by having random Pokemon in place- that the series of Pokemon is so much more than just random Pocket monsters. I think his inclusion of Pomeon Trainer at all shows he knows this.

Ultimately, Sakurai is aware of how important Pokemon is to Nintendo. It got two reps in the first game, two in the second, and four in third. I cannot believe it would only get one this game, and based on a sketch, at that....
It is a MAJOR franchise to Nintendo, and if Mario is getting this much attention, I would be utterly shocked to see Pokemon so ***** slapped.I honestly could see Pokemon getting up to 8 characters without it seeming overboard on a close to 60 character roster.
Personally, I would go with
Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff.

I hope we get some major surprises with Pokemon Trainer. We have been told all characters were taken from scratch, and seen how evident this is in Bowser and Pit. Hopeful for what this means with Pokemon Trainer, beacuse he is such a vital part of Pokemon, and he ushered in the avatar character, which we now have four more of (Mii, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager). He is my number one most anticipated returning character, and as far as I'm concerned, far more worthy of returning than Snake, Lucas, Wolf, or Ice Climbers, ten fold. Bitter immensely at all these "smash fans" who don't even give him the time to be mentioned.

 

[DraginHikari]

Not everyone will believe the evidence they are given due to their emotions.

If something is truly objective then it doesn't matter if they believe the evidence or it wouldn't matter if they don't believe it in that case because they could be proven wrong because of the nature of an objective fact to others that would see the discussion.

That's the thing here is you can't prove someone wrong is this case because no matter how highly you view your opinion it is just that an opinion. So your right no one will believe the evidence because I don't think you have any that is going to change their view on a given character or the roster in general because it's not objective in the slightest bit.

 

[Baskerville]

If Shulk's not that popular, how did his game get ported internationally out of fan demand alone?

That, and his game did better in Europe and America than Japan.

 

[?????????????]

Not to mention the "throwing a bone" metaphor is backwards in this case; it's a Japanese video game. If anything, characters popular outside of Japan, such as my beloved Little Mac, are the ones who are being "thrown a bone."

 

[MagnesD3]

If Shulk's not that popular, how did his game get ported internationally out of fan demand alone?

A group of loud people formed that Operation (I forget the name now) to try and make nintendo port 3 awesome titles over here, there were several who signed the petitions and helped rally for this to happen but It wasnt like a huge amount of people or anything, but I will say it was impressive even though nintendo took their sweet ass time to do the ports.

Fixed

lol. I thought shulk was a poor choice back when gematsu was first leaked.

Not to mention the "throwing a bone" metaphor is backwards in this case; it's a Japanese video game. If anything, characters popular outside of Japan, such as my beloved Little Mac, are the ones who are being "thrown a bone."

Which is the wrong way to go about it because the U.S. population is larger and Sakurai shouldnt have bias based on where he lives.

 

[Burruni]

Look ive looked at the general consensus and shulk isnt that popular. And to no surprise, he is from a JRPG that was ported over here with little to no marketing on a system that was about dead. Now Ill agree he was popular in japan but its not like he was number over there or anything and tbh shulk really needed more than popularity at this point since he is so new. Sakurai added him because X and because he wanted to throw Japan a bone.

Xenoblade Chronicles sales, according to VGCharts.

Total Units
North America:0.41m46.8%
+ Europe:0.23m27.1%
+ Japan:0.16m18.4%
+ Rest of the World:0.07m7.6%
= Global0.87m

Amazing how a game "with no marketing on a system that was about dead," sold over double in NA than Japan, and even Europe outselling it in japan. Certainly couldn't be popularity.

And let's look at the two latest Star Fox games, with their massive popularity and fairly well off marketing.

Star Fox 64 3D
Total Units

North America:0.44m54.6%
+ Europe:0.19m23.0%
+ Japan:0.13m15.6%
+ Rest of the World:0.06m6.8%
= Global0.81m

Star Fox Command
Total Units

North America:0.37m72.0%
+ Europe:0.01m1.2%
+ Japan:0.10m20.1%
+ Rest of the World:0.03m6.7%
= Global0.52m

Man. Yep. Xenoblade Chronicles was such a poor game with it's terrible marketing. It has no stance in Smash Bros. with a sequel that was shown off almost as much as Smash Bros. at the Treehouse Direct at E3.

 

[GunGunW]

Xenoblade Chronicles sales, according to VGCharts.

Total Units
North America:0.41m46.8%
+ Europe:0.23m27.1%
+ Japan:0.16m18.4%
+ Rest of the World:0.07m7.6%
= Global0.87m

Amazing how a game "with no marketing on a system that was about dead," sold over double in NA than Japan, and even Europe outselling it in japan. Certainly couldn't be popularity.

And let's look at the two latest Star Fox games, with their massive popularity and fairly well off marketing.

Star Fox 64 3D
Total Units

North America:0.44m54.6%
+ Europe:0.19m23.0%
+ Japan:0.13m15.6%
+ Rest of the World:0.06m6.8%
= Global0.81m

Star Fox Command
Total Units

North America:0.37m72.0%
+ Europe:0.01m1.2%
+ Japan:0.10m20.1%
+ Rest of the World:0.03m6.7%
= Global0.52m

Man. Yep. Xenoblade Chronicles was such a poor game with it's terrible marketing. It has no stance in Smash Bros. with a sequel that was shown off almost as much as Smash Bros. at the Treehouse Direct at E3.

I don't know it the 3DS 64 one is fair. It was after all the same game released three times prior.

 

[HylianHeroBigBoss]

A group of loud people formed that Operation (I forget the name now) to try and make nintendo port 3 awesome titles over here, there were several who signed the petitions and helped rally for this to happen but It wasnt like a huge amount of people or anything, but I will say it was impressive even though nintendo took their sweet *** time to do the ports.


lol. I thought shulk was a poor choice back when gematsu was first leaked.


Which is the wrong way to go about it because the U.S. population is larger and Sakurai shouldnt have bias based on where he lives.

I think your using the term port wrong brother

 

[NeonBurrito]

Because popularity / recency is a big topic right now, I thought I should list some characters who were really recent / unheard of at the time.

Smash 64 (1999):
and both were introduced in 1996.
Fun Fact. In Europe, Pokémon Red and Blue and Super Smash Bros. came out 3 months apart from one another.
Also, and were unheard of for the most part.

Melee (2001):
was introduced in late 1999.
(Once again in Europe, Smash Bros and Pokémon Gold and Silver came out a few months away from one another)
has only been in one canonical Zelda game, being Ocarina of Time in 1998.
has only been in one canonical Zelda game, being Ocarina of Time in 1998 and Majora's Mask in 2000.
and hadn't been in an original game for over 10 years.
hadn't existed yet.

Brawl (2008):
was introduced in 2005.
was introduced in 2006.
(Europe once again got Pokémon Diamond and Pearl 11 months before Brawl. It's a little better but jeez, step up ur game Europe)
was only in a Japan-only GBA game that came out in 2006.
hasn't been seen in an original game for over 10 years, similarly to + .
has never been in video game. (That wasn't a cameo or spinoff, mind you)
has been on Playstation consoles more than Nintendo consoles.
Genesis does what Nintendon't

Smash 4 (2014):
was introduced in October of 2013. I know he was chosen before XY released, but still. (At least Europe didn't get their Pokemon and Smash games at the same time, later than everyone else)

were all introduced in 2012.
Duck Hunt Dog hasn't been in a game for over 30 years now.
was introduced in 2007, and has only been in 3 "traditional" Mario games.
was introduced in 2010, and wasn't brought over to North America until 2012.
has only been in two games, and isn't popular.

TL;DR: Popularity and recency aren't really that important of a topic, because every Smash game has had those oddballs strewn about.

I know this is just the tip of the iceberg and it's highly opinionated, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Smash Bros. doesn't always choose fan-favorites. If it did, we'd have King K. Rool, Ridley, and Mewtwo by now.

 

[Deleted member]

lol. I thought shulk was a poor choice back when gematsu was first leaked.

Because he wasn't Wolf

 

[?????????????]

Which is the wrong way to go about it because the U.S. population is larger.

It's statements like this that make the rest of the world hate America.

Also, I do believe that over 100,000 people is a pretty large amount. For Operation Rainfall.

 

[The Light Music Club]

Shulk is insanely popular in Japan. Greninja is the most popular Pokémon from sixth gen. I'll admit Wii Fit Trainer isn't popular, but she comes from an insanely popular series. Lucina is one of the most popular Fire Emblem characters in Japan.

I can keep going, guys.

Who cares if they are popular? Does that make them all-stars that will last the test of time? Why do you think guys like Roy and probably Lucas get cut? It's cause their popularity died down, and they don't have the history. Ike and Lucario got lucky by having multiple games where they play big parts. If out of any of the characters you mentioned WFT is probably the biggest of them in terms of being an All-Star.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm using this as the Duck Hunt Dog emote from now on, even when he gets an official one.

 

[MagnesD3]

Xenoblade Chronicles sales, according to VGCharts.

Total Units
North America:0.41m46.8%
+ Europe:0.23m27.1%
+ Japan:0.16m18.4%
+ Rest of the World:0.07m7.6%
= Global0.87m

Amazing how a game "with no marketing on a system that was about dead," sold over double in NA than Japan, and even Europe outselling it in japan. Certainly couldn't be popularity.

And let's look at the two latest Star Fox games, with their massive popularity and fairly well off marketing.

Star Fox 64 3D
Total Units

North America:0.44m54.6%
+ Europe:0.19m23.0%
+ Japan:0.13m15.6%
+ Rest of the World:0.06m6.8%
= Global0.81m

Star Fox Command
Total Units

North America:0.37m72.0%
+ Europe:0.01m1.2%
+ Japan:0.10m20.1%
+ Rest of the World:0.03m6.7%
= Global0.52m

Man. Yep. Xenoblade Chronicles was such a poor game with it's terrible marketing. It has no stance in Smash Bros. with a sequel that was shown off almost as much as Smash Bros. at the Treehouse Direct at E3.

Xenoblade still didnt sell that well, but it clearly sold enough for a sequel.

Also to be fair, Command was a really bad game and the remake sold well when it probably the inferior version and for the fact star fox hadnt had a game in some time.

I think your using the term port wrong brother

I think you are right. Localized was the word I should have used.

Who cares if they are popular? Does that make them all-stars that will last the test of time? Why do you think guys like Roy and probably Lucas get cut? It's cause their popularity died down, and they don't have the history. Ike and Lucario got lucky by having multiple games where they play big parts. If out of any of the characters you mentioned WFT is probably the biggest of them in terms of being an All-Star.

I do think popularity matters but there are many things to look at besides popularity as well.

 

[Deleted member]

Xenoblade still didnt sell that well, but it clearly sold enough for a sequel.

Xenoblade exceeded NoA's sales expectations by a lot. The game is extremely hard to find due to Nintendo not making enough copies of the game to meet the demand. 800,000 units may not be a lot for a game, but for an underadvertised JRPG that was only localized due to petition, that's impressive. Try again.

 

[?????????????]

Who cares if they are popular? Does that make them all-stars that will last the test of time? Why do you think guys like Roy and probably Lucas get cut? It's cause their popularity died down, and they don't have the history. Ike and Lucario got lucky by having multiple games where they play big parts. If out of any of the characters you mentioned WFT is probably the biggest of them in terms of being an All-Star.

So, did Wolf and Mewtwo also get cut for this reason? Or were they just generally unpopular?

 

[MagnesD3]

Xenoblade exceeded NoA's sales expectations by a lot. The game is extremely hard to find due to Nintendo not making enough copies of the game to meet the demand. 800,000 units may not be a lot for a game, but for an underadvertised JRPG that was only localized due to petition, that's impressive. Try again.

Ill agree it did well for what it was but that still doesnt mean it sold well it just means it sold more than anyone was expecting.

So, did Wolf and Mewtwo also get cut for this reason?

They got cut because sakurai doesnt always make the best decisions, especially when cutting 2 important and iconic characters but there is nothing that can be done about it unless sakurai saves the day with dlc which I doubt he will do.

 

[The Light Music Club]

So, did Wolf and Mewtwo also get cut for this reason?

Well first, I'm pretty sure Wolf and Mewtwo will be in the game, so that doesn't really matter. The point I was making with Roy, is that he got replaced by Lucina as the Marth clone, when they could bring him back like Dr. Mario.

So no. Because Wolf won't be cut, and Mewtwo is coming back.

 

[Deleted member]

Ill agree it did well for what it was but that still doesnt mean it sold well it just means it sold more than anyone was expecting.

Exceeding Nintendo's sales expectations = selling well. In business, you want to make a profit. If their expectations were so low, they clearly were not expecting to make a profit. I guess E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial sold well even though Atari lost a ton of money due to most copies being returned to them.

 

[?????????????]

They got cut because sakurai doesnt always make the best decisions.

Once again, taking your own opinion as factual information, and ignoring others.

So no. Because Wolf won't be cut, and Mewtwo is coming back.

Then why are we having this conversation in the first place?

 

[MagnesD3]

It's statements like this that make the rest of the world hate America.

Also, I do believe that over 100,000 people is a pretty large amount. For Operation Rainfall.

Oh dang, I was mistaken on the number (I guess thats why they got nintendos attention lol)

The only way Squirtle can be seen as 'spiritually replaced' is if Greninja is a water starter and there is a suitable grass starter to replace Ivysaur. Otherwise, no, Greninja is just a hapless sixth gen rep who happens to be a water Pokemon starter in the next game. Greninja and Squirtle fight nothing alike, and if you remove the necessary Pokemon battle representation out of it with the starter trio, the essence of Pokemon being gone with both BATTLES and starer pokemon, then not only is Greninja a poor choice, but he has absolutely no connection with Squirtle whatsoever other than being a Pokemon.
The biggest disappointment with this roster for me will be the essence of Pokemon. Up until this game, Sakurai has done a terrific job with catching elements of Pokemon. He understood the importance of trading in Chrom for Robin, going as far as stating

I can only hope he understands all that Pokemon is missing just by having random Pokemon in place- that the series of Pokemon is so much more than just random Pocket monsters. I think his inclusion of Pomeon Trainer at all shows he knows this.

Ultimately, Sakurai is aware of how important Pokemon is to Nintendo. It got two reps in the first game, two in the second, and four in third. I cannot believe it would only get one this game, and based on a sketch, at that....
It is a MAJOR franchise to Nintendo, and if Mario is getting this much attention, I would be utterly shocked to see Pokemon so ***** slapped.I honestly could see Pokemon getting up to 8 characters without it seeming overboard on a close to 60 character roster.
Personally, I would go with
Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff.

I hope we get some major surprises with Pokemon Trainer. We have been told all characters were taken from scratch, and seen how evident this is in Bowser and Pit. Hopeful for what this means with Pokemon Trainer, beacuse he is such a vital part of Pokemon, and he ushered in the avatar character, which we now have four more of (Mii, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager). He is my number one most anticipated returning character, and as far as I'm concerned, far more worthy of returning than Snake, Lucas, Wolf, or Ice Climbers, ten fold. Bitter immensely at all these "smash fans" who don't even give him the time to be mentioned.

I liked the concept of the Pokemon Trainer but I think it could have been pulled off waaay better. There is alot of complexity that could have been added.

 

[Spazzy_D]

Xenoblade's Vgchartz numbers are missing last years Christmas shipments in North America. The game sold over 900k for sure. How much more is uncertain.

 

[DraginHikari]

Xenoblade's Vgchartz numbers are missing last years Christmas shipments in North America. The game sold over 900k for sure. How much more is uncertain.

To add to that there is no telling how strong the 2nd market sales for the game have been considering the insane prices the game started going for after it intially sold.

 

[MagnesD3]

Xenoblade's Vgchartz numbers are missing last years Christmas shipments in North America. The game sold over 900k for sure. How much more is uncertain.

Smash will increase these numbers tremendously I guarantee it. It wouldnt surprise me if Xenoblade isnt ported to Wii U in a rerelease since its hard to find copies of the game.

 

[Deleted member]

I liked the concept of the Pokemon Trainer but I think it could have been pulled off waaay better. There is alot of complexity that could have been added.

The complexity is why PT is hampered. Stamina and Type Effectiveness may be nice nods to the Pokemon games, but they cripple the character so bad.

 

[?????????????]

Smash will increase these numbers tremendously I guarantee it. It wouldnt surprise me if Xenoblade isnt ported to Wii U in a rerelease since its hard to find copies of the game.

Super. And THEN, Shulk will truly be a Nintendo "All-Star."

 

[NeonBurrito]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone than having an original character not getting the axe. Not sure if it's for personal reasons or what, but I think that Wolf should've gotten cut before the leak even happened.

 

[MagnesD3]

The complexity is why PT is hampered. Stamina and Type Effectiveness may be nice nods to the Pokemon games, but they cripple the character so bad.

Honestly that was too simple, the stamina thing could have been done alot better and I probably wouldnt have included the type thing at all.

 

[Kenith]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone

You are clearly uninformed.
Wolf's moveset may be mechanically inspired by his rivals, but quite literally the only move in his arsenal he shares with Fox/Falco is his Final Smash.

 

[MagnesD3]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone than having an original character not getting the axe. Not sure if it's for personal reasons or what, but I think that Wolf should've gotten cut before the leak even happened.

Its because Wolf is important to the series, an antagonist and he ISNT a freaking clone 3 moves out of 17 doesnt make you a clone. And dont say semi clone because that implies half when actually he is only 17% a clone.

 

[?????????????]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone than having an original character not getting the axe. Not sure if it's for personal reasons or what, but I think that Wolf should've gotten cut before the leak even happened.

Don't you know? Wolf is only the second most important character ever of the incredibly vast and popular Star Fox franchise.

 

[MagnesD3]

Don't you know? Wolf is only the second most important character ever of the incredibly vast and popular Star Fox franchise.

It is very popular thank you

 

[~Krystal~]

Don't you know? Wolf is only the second most important character ever of the incredibly vast and popular Star Fox franchise.

It is popular actually. Its record speaks for itself, but we choose to ignore everything before Command for some reason.

 

[Spice.]

Because popularity / recency is a big topic right now, I thought I should list some characters who were really recent / unheard of at the time.

Smash 64 (1999):
and both were introduced in 1996.
Fun Fact. In Europe, Pokémon Red and Blue and Super Smash Bros. came out 3 months apart from one another.
Also, and were unheard of for the most part.

Melee (2001):
was introduced in late 1999.
(Once again in Europe, Smash Bros and Pokémon Gold and Silver came out a few months away from one another)
has only been in one canonical Zelda game, being Ocarina of Time in 1998.
has only been in one canonical Zelda game, being Ocarina of Time in 1998 and Majora's Mask in 2000.
and hadn't been in an original game for over 10 years.
hadn't existed yet.

Brawl (2008):
was introduced in 2005.
was introduced in 2006.
(Europe once again got Pokémon Diamond and Pearl 11 months before Brawl. It's a little better but jeez, step up ur game Europe)
was only in a Japan-only GBA game that came out in 2006.
hasn't been seen in an original game for over 10 years, similarly to + .
has never been in video game. (That wasn't a cameo or spinoff, mind you)
has been on Playstation consoles more than Nintendo consoles.
Genesis does what Nintendon't

Smash 4 (2014):
was introduced in October of 2013. I know he was chosen before XY released, but still. (At least Europe didn't get their Pokemon and Smash games at the same time, later than everyone else)

were all introduced in 2012.
Duck Hunt Dog hasn't been in a game for over 30 years now.
was introduced in 2007, and has only been in 3 "traditional" Mario games.
was introduced in 2010, and wasn't brought over to North America until 2012.
has only been in two games, and isn't popular.

TL;DR: Popularity and recency aren't really that important of a topic, because every Smash game has had those oddballs strewn about.

I know this is just the tip of the iceberg and it's highly opinionated, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Smash Bros. doesn't always choose fan-favorites. If it did, we'd have King K. Rool, Ridley, and Mewtwo by now.

You're right, but when you say that they don't always choose characters due to popularity it is also implying that they do take it into consideration. The fact that it is a consideration means that it's relevant to character speculation in one way or another.

 

[Deleted member]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone than having an original character not getting the axe. Not sure if it's for personal reasons or what, but I think that Wolf should've gotten cut before the leak even happened.

It's because he's a space animal.
Snake is "more a PlayStation character than Nintendo."
Lucas is "just a clone."
Ice Climbers are "cheap"

 

[?????????????]

Lucas and Wolf's clone levels are about equal.

But seriously, I thought Brawl had a really solid roster of good characters, and I'm sad that some of them are leaving. I was really hoping they'd stay.

A lot of the big changes, I really like. Samus/ZSS and Zelda/Sheik separated into two entities will make those individual characters all the better. It's unfortunate the same can't be done with Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard; I personally do believe that would give Pokemon too many characters, at least if they want to add new ones I would prefer such as Mewtwo. I do like the choice of keeping Charizard as a part of that all, though. Similarly, it's difficult to keep Ice Climbers in a logical way that fits this format, so I don't mind them being cut or being redone for the sake of better, more balanced gameplay.

I'll miss Lucas, Wolf, and Snake a lot. I have my theory for roster selection, so, well...here it is. My guess is that Sakurai had a predetermined number of characters he wanted to have, and when the brainstorming of who those would be was done, it didn't include Lucas, Wolf, and Snake.

Who knows why? Perhaps Konami wasn't on good terms with Nintendo. Perhaps Sakurai favored having truly unique newcomers, such as Shulk, Little Mac, Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, and Rosalina, to name a few, over Lucas and Wolf, who are largely based on already existing characters.

THEN, when all was said and done, Sakurai had some extra time, so he promoted Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario from "alternate costume" to "playable character." It would have been amazing if he could have instead done this for Lucas and Wolf, but he probably didn't have enough time to do something of that scale.

That being the case, I can't fault him for adding Lucina, Dark Pit, and Dr. Mario; they're merely extras that otherwise would have nothing in their place. And although I'll really miss Lucas and Wolf, if Sakurai felt he only had enough time to make "X" number of characters, I'm glad he prioritized the veterans that he did and that he added so many unique newcomers.

That is why I think this is the best roster. 50+ characters, almost all completely unique, with less than a handful of clones made out of spare time. What more could be done?

EDIT: Also, to note, we don't actually know if anyone is cut yet.

 

[mark welford]

Also, can someone tell me why so many people like Wolf so much? I've seen more people in this thread get upset over Wolf being cut than more unique characters like Ice Climbers, Snake, or even Lucas. I don't understand why people would rather have a 3rd copy-paste Star Fox clone than having an original character not getting the axe. Not sure if it's for personal reasons or what, but I think that Wolf should've gotten cut before the leak even happened.

1.he is not a clone.
2.he plays an important part in his series.
3. he is the most interesting starfox character in SSBB.
4. in terms he might not be the only villain of the series but he is
the only villain who is considered playable could you imagine
playing as andross a floating head and a pair of hands.
5. he deserves a spot in ssb4 and I believe he is there.

 

[shinhed-echi]

The only way Squirtle can be seen as 'spiritually replaced' is if Greninja is a water starter and there is a suitable grass starter to replace Ivysaur. Otherwise, no, Greninja is just a hapless sixth gen rep who happens to be a water Pokemon starter in the next game. Greninja and Squirtle fight nothing alike, and if you remove the necessary Pokemon battle representation out of it with the starter trio, the essence of Pokemon being gone with both BATTLES and starer pokemon, then not only is Greninja a poor choice, but he has absolutely no connection with Squirtle whatsoever other than being a Pokemon.
The biggest disappointment with this roster for me will be the essence of Pokemon. Up until this game, Sakurai has done a terrific job with catching elements of Pokemon. He understood the importance of trading in Chrom for Robin, going as far as stating

I can only hope he understands all that Pokemon is missing just by having random Pokemon in place- that the series of Pokemon is so much more than just random Pocket monsters. I think his inclusion of Pomeon Trainer at all shows he knows this.

Ultimately, Sakurai is aware of how important Pokemon is to Nintendo. It got two reps in the first game, two in the second, and four in third. I cannot believe it would only get one this game, and based on a sketch, at that....
It is a MAJOR franchise to Nintendo, and if Mario is getting this much attention, I would be utterly shocked to see Pokemon so ***** slapped.I honestly could see Pokemon getting up to 8 characters without it seeming overboard on a close to 60 character roster.
Personally, I would go with
Pikachu, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Sceptile, Mewtwo, Pokemon Trainer, Jigglypuff.

I hope we get some major surprises with Pokemon Trainer. We have been told all characters were taken from scratch, and seen how evident this is in Bowser and Pit. Hopeful for what this means with Pokemon Trainer, beacuse he is such a vital part of Pokemon, and he ushered in the avatar character, which we now have four more of (Mii, Robin, Wii Fit Trainer, Villager). He is my number one most anticipated returning character, and as far as I'm concerned, far more worthy of returning than Snake, Lucas, Wolf, or Ice Climbers, ten fold. Bitter immensely at all these "smash fans" who don't even give him the time to be mentioned.

Truer words have never been spoken.

Pokemon Trainer is the only veteran other than Sonic which I REALLY cared about. And the only Nintendo character I actually gave a damn about in Brawl.
His exclusion is still the worst part of the current roster. Now I don't mind that Charizard broke off because his moveset was unique enough to warrant this, and I'd say the most reliable of the 3. BUT this is no reason why Squirtle and Ivysaur coultn't get a buff.

Hope trainer returns with a new mechanic so he can get his 3 starters (and maybe more) working.

What is most painful is that when people hear "POKEMON TRAINER" they immediately jump to "Sakurai said no transformations".
... well, who says that's the ONLY way to go about a character like him? Anyone else heard of FAT PRINCESS in PSASBR, or Yami Yugi in JUMP Ultimate Stars? Or Cream the Rabbit in Sonic Battle?