Character Discussion Thread

[~Krystal~]

now where's my second f-zero character

Which F-Zero character do you want?

 

[CJ Falcon]

By the way, if we're talking about character representation here the sales don't matter, Fire Emblem has more characters than Star Fox for one simple reason and that's because it lends itself much better for playable characters, it really is as simple as that.

Please elaborate, because I can't make any sense of this.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Please elaborate, because I can't make any sense of this.

I have a bad habit of posting and then afterwards editing my post a ton. I've edited it a bit.

 

[Kenith]

Please elaborate, because I can't make any sense of this.

What do you mean? It makes perfect sense.

Most Starfox characters spend their time cooped up in a plane firing lasers.

Most Fire Emblem characters run around swinging all sorts of weapons and blasting magic.

The latter obviously fits better in a fighting game.

 

[CJ Falcon]

What do you mean? It makes perfect sense.

Most Starfox characters spend their time cooped up in a plane firing lasers.

Most Fire Emblem characters run around swinging all sorts of weapons and blasting magic.

The latter obviously fits better in a fighting game.

Come again? You saying these guys don't fit?

 

[Burruni]

There is also the two remakes on DS.

Yes, FE 11 and 12 were remakes of Marth's two games. However, the later we never got outside of Japan and I am not sure how popular Shadow Dragon was.

Star Fox, even at its lowest point, was always more popular than Fire Emblem. I implore you to post the figures.

As this site often says VGcharts is a bad cite for sales numbers... I'll just give the Wikipedia info on Awakening sales.

Spoiler

"The game's Japanese release sold well, with it being the fastest selling entry in the series since detailed weekly tallies began.The game sold 242,600 units in its first week of sales in Japan, selling 81.63% of its original shipment, although the sales count does not include the Fire Emblem Awakening 3DS bundle, according to Media Create. Additionally, in September 2012, six months after its Japanese release, Nintendo reported that 1.2 million units of downloadable content had been sold, bringing in an additional 380 million yen (about $4.8 million).

The game sold 180,000 units in its first month of sales in North America, with 63,000 units of the total sales being eShop downloads. The game had the best ever first month sales in the franchise in North America. On April 17, 2013, Nintendo of America announced that Fire Emblem Awakening had hit 240,000 units sold in North America; 80,000 units of these were digital sales sold over Nintendo's eShop. On September 12, 2013 Nintendo announced sales in the United States as 390,000 units. In UK, Fire Emblem Awakening debuted at #3, alongside a special edition Fire Emblem Awakening 3DS. The game and the hardware bundle collectively boosted sales of the 3DS by nearly 50% over the previous week."

Star Fox 64 3D, I sadly wa sonly able to find VGchartz information for.

Spoiler

North America:0.44m54.6%
+ Europe:0.18m23.0%
+ Japan:0.13m15.6%
+ Rest of the World:0.05m6.8%
= Global0.80m

but their info for Awakening shows as such

Spoiler

North America:0.48m36.8%
+ Europe:0.25m18.9%
+ Japan:0.52m39.4%
+ Rest of the World:0.06m4.9%
= Global1.31m

Based on the info on both sites, Awakening beat the remake of Star fox's most highly coveted game on the same console. If we look at information for the latest Star fox Main title: Command... once again the only real sales listing I could find was VGCharts and I apologize.

Spoiler

North America:0.37m72.0%
+ Europe:0.01m1.2%
+ Japan:0.10m20.1%
+ Rest of the World:0.03m6.7%
= Global0.52m

Awakening by itself almost matches the sales of these two games together. Also, look at the distribution of the popularity. Star Fox is much more liked in NA than Japan, while FE has grown more evenly popular. While sales =/= Popularity exactly, the fact that FE had been considered fairly niche, Awakening proves how big the series is at the time of development.

A dip in quality isn't exactly a dip in popularity.

One again, this is true. The two isn't a one-to-one relationship, but poor games in a series will turn away some fans. It i how people work, and it is clear that recent Star Fox doesn't have as large of a hold as recent Fire Emblem.

So, with equal games released worldwide, but having about double the titles in Japan, is FE so "undeserving" as opposed to Star Fox?

Edit: I apologize for the changing font sizes and the empty spoiler box... I don't know what happened.

 

[Kenith]

Come again? You saying these guys don't fit?

How is this relevant to anything?
And frankly, Mr. Game & Watch and Villager had very many moves to pull from.

 

[Autumn ♫]

Come again? You saying these guys don't fit?

I don't recall having multiple characters from those guy's franchises.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Come again? You saying these guys don't fit?

Not saying they don't fit, just saying that it makes more sense for a franchise with characters that are swinging swords, axes, spears and magic all around to have more characters than a franchise where every character is piloted in a vehicle.

 

[CJ Falcon]

How is this relevant to anything?
And frankly, Mr. Game & Watch and Villager had very many moves to pull from.

How is it not? You were saying characters who fight in their games fit better than those who don't, yet these characters, who do absolutely no fighting in their games, fit just as perfectly as those who do fight.

I don't recall having multiple characters from those guy's franchises.

And that matters because..........?

 

[Kenith]

How is it not? You were saying characters who fight in their games fit better than those who don't, yet these characters, who do absolutely no fighting in their games, fit perfectly.
And that matters because..........?

No, I did not say that. I was basically reinstating what @ MasterOfKnees was saying.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

All this rep talk is making my head hurt.

Why is Krystal suddenly going to be in the game? Because Robin and Lucina are in for Fire Emblem? I don't see how that makes sense.

If anything, right now Fire Emblem is a more relevant and popular series. It has grown vastly over the years and has garnered quite the following. With Robin coming in with Awakening, the opportunity for a very unique playstyle arose, and Sakurai took it.

Gameplay, and the fact that Sakurai typically looks at the newest game for potential newcomers with Fire Emblem pretty much produced the outcome that is Robin. It's as simple as that.

Compare that to Krystal. Now mind you, I have no real problem with the character, but I'm not convinced that she would be worth adding. I mean yeah, she has a staff, but I don't even know what that means. In my opinion both characters and series are just not comparable when it comes to having their characters added. Robin is from a brand new game and has obvious potential...Krystal is from a series that already has 3 characters, hasn't had a *new* game featuring her in years, and in my opinion lacks appeal. But again, that's just my opinion.

It's not "sales = roster representation" either. If that were the case, then Metroid would have more characters, Yoshi would have more characters, and so on and so on. It's not a direct or measurable factor, which is why I don't get why people use it. Based on Fire Emblem (which now has one less character than Mario does) it is clear that there isn't a measurable factor of sales. Sure, it matters. But it isn't measurable in how many characters a series will get, if any at all.

I wish the sales argument would die in a hole. It's not as decisive as people make it out to be.

 

[CJ Falcon]

No, I did not say that. I was basically reinstating what @ MasterOfKnees was saying.

I still don't get where you're coming from with this and I don't think I ever will. Whatever. Think what you will

 

[Burruni]

All this rep talk is making my head hurt.

Why is Krystal suddenly going to be in the game? Because Robin and Lucina are in for Fire Emblem? I don't see how that makes sense.

If anything, right now Fire Emblem is a more relevant and popular series. It has grown vastly over the years and has garnered quite the following. With Robin coming in with Awakening, the opportunity for a very unique playstyle arose, and Sakurai took it.

Gameplay, and the fact that Sakurai typically looks at the newest game for potential newcomers with Fire Emblem pretty much produced the outcome that is Robin. It's as simple as that.

Compare that to Krystal. Now mind you, I have no real problem with the character, but I'm not convinced that she would be worth adding. I mean yeah, she has a staff, but I don't even know what that means. In my opinion both characters and series are just not comparable when it comes to having their characters added. Robin is from a brand new game and has obvious potential...Krystal is from a series that already has 3 characters, hasn't had a *new* game featuring her in years, and in my opinion lacks appeal. But again, that's just my opinion.

It's not "sales = roster representation" either. If that were the case, then Metroid would have more characters, Yoshi would have more characters, and so on and so on. It's not a direct or measurable factor, which is why I don't get why people use it. Based on Fire Emblem (which now has one less character than Mario does) it is clear that there isn't a measurable factor of sales. Sure, it matters. But it isn't measurable in how many characters a series will get, if any at all.

I wish the sales argument would die in a hole. It's not as decisive as people make it out to be.

I am sorry, Scoli. I just wanted to provide figures when someone asked for them. I just believe that FE is on a massive upswing of popularity, and at worst has peaked with Awakening while Star Fox "peaked" on the N64. There was evidence that supported my claim. I'll drop the argument.

 

[Kenith]

I still don't get where you're coming from with this and I don't think I ever will. Whatever. Think what you will

Well, we both quite plainly explained what we were saying, so if you don't get it, I frankly don't see the point in continuing.

 

[Scoliosis Jones]

I am sorry, Scoli. I just wanted to provide figures when someone asked for them. I just believe that FE is on a massive upswing of popularity, and at worst has peaked with Awakening while Star Fox "peaked" on the N64. There was evidence that supported my claim. I'll drop the argument.

It wasn't directed at you, so no worries lol. It was a general thing, because I don't even think I even saw your comment.

 

[CJ Falcon]

Well, we both quite plainly explained what we were saying, so if you don't get it, I frankly don't see the point in continuing.

Good. Please don't.

 

[NeonBurrito]

For comparison:

Star Fox
Amount of Games - Six, one upcoming
Characters:

Fire Emblem
Amount of Games - Eleven
Characters:

I also took a glance at the sales / reviews for some of their games, and it seems like Star Fox's quality and sales are declining from and Fire Emblem is doing the opposite. I know sales don't matter at all in terms of characters, but the more people who buy the game, the more people will know the characters. As someone said above, Star Fox had peaked with Star Fox 64, and it seems that Fire Emblem is peaking now, with Fire Emblem: Awakening.

also i really don't want krystal in smash but that's my dumb opinion

 

[Autumn ♫]

And that matters because..........?

Because you're argument is since those characters don't fight, than Star Fox characters wouldn't fit either, from what I'm understanding. With the obvious exceptions of Villager and G&W because they actually had a lot moveset potential to work with, we are left with WFT and ROB, who don't fight, and don't have as much moveset potential, and if we got a 2nd character from those franchises, they'd probably play the same as those two, (With maybe the exception of ROB, because I know nothing about his games) I mean, I have a really hard time seeing a very unique Male WFT (who would probably be our next WF character) or a 2nd ROB-ish character. Same with Star Fox, all they really ever do is fly around in Arwings, which makes a harder to make, unique moveset, while Fire Emblem has plenty of different fighters, who would easily be unique in Smash.

 

[Fire Emblemier]

For comparison:
Star Fox
Amount of Games - Six, one upcoming
Characters:

Fire Emblem
Amount of Games - Eleven
Characters:

I also took a glance at the sales / reviews for some of their games, and it seems like Star Fox's quality and sales are declining from and Fire Emblem is doing the opposite. I know sales don't matter at all in terms of characters, but the more people who buy the game, the more people will know the characters. As someone said above, Star Fox had peaked with Star Fox 64, and it seems that Fire Emblem is peaking now, with Fire Emblem: Awakening.

also i really don't want krystal in smash but that's my dumb opinion

We wouldn't know if Awakening "peaked" until when the next game in the franchise comes out... For all we know it could increase even more.

 

[pupNapoleon]

How many more characters?
I would say we have 4-6 more characters, but honestly, it could go many ways. We may geta huge blowout- I am fully in the belief we will get at least two more revealed before the release (possibly three), or if he wants to do it right, four), but I think we will have hidden ones in the game. I'd personally love to see some locked so well that they cannot be seen until the Wii U version comes out!
Character unlock methods:
King K Rool- unlock 10 character costumes
Ridley-

Demo or Roster?
DEMO! I Don't want the Roster, I love to be teas... and I want to play. I could in theory NOT know the Roster through the American release if I knew the Demo. Hell, I think that would be a good market strategy in general, to release it.

Jiggly is of little to no threat of not returning

Well, we make up our own percentages of all of this, either a character is returning or is not. There is no likely, no threat, no any of this.

Mewtwo has as much merit as Roy to return.

Quite a daft statement based on only one thing they share in common, that they were both cut. Otherwise, Mewtwo has pretty much everything going for him while Roy has absolutely nothing going for him, down to having been replaced by Lucina just now. Mewtwo, on the other hand:

• Extremely requested, popular,
  
• relevant in his games throughout generations
• of a much more popular series which still seeks more characters,
  
• was heavily trolled in Greninja's trailer
• Big bad villain

I don't really care to go on, good sir.

We can place a very safe bet for Jiggly making 5, I'd say a 95% chance, but by no means are we assured 6 Pokemon in the roster yet.

I mean, if we are going by any standard the game has put forth so far for Pokemon in the game, we are getting at least six Pokemon. We arent assured anything we havnt been shown yet, but Pokemon getting 6 reps at least, is the thing we should be just about smitten on at this point.

But thank you for not disproving a lack of moveset for DHD or giving any proper evidence for Ridley being playable.

Quite demanding. Why don't you take the moment to go to the threads and look it up? There's quite a huge post in each thread with the evidence for these things.

 

[ZeldaMaster]

Fire Emblem has been highly underrated by the gaming industry, despite it existing since the Famicom days. So now that its garnering the popularity it deserves, people have to complain.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Which F-Zero character do you want?

Samurai Goroh. But look at how that turned out.

So anyone, really. Bonus points if they actually end up taking more from super hero comic books than a tokusatsu hero like what Captain Falcon should have gotten.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

When it comes to newcomers I'm think it's anything from 2 to 6 left

And personally, I'm saying it's gonna be Ridley, Shulk, Marshall(A Rhythm Heaven Charcater in general really), K.Rool, Isaac and either Lip or Mach Rider

 

[Sabrewulf238]

I'm really feeling a newcomer trailer for this week. If they leave it too late they may end up revealing all the remaining trailers at once. I'm not sure if they would do that.

I'm thinking there's another two trailers on the way.

Also I think there's a decent chance two of: Wario, Ice Climbers and Ness or Lucas will appear in them.

 

[Second Power]

So, when do you guys think characters unrevealed at release will be 'officially' revealed (on the website)? The renders tend to look pretty good. If those were reused for trophies (or they come from the characters' trophies) that'd be cool.

 

[Pizzanigs]

If we're going to argue about series representation, I'd like to bring up Donkey Kong. One of Nintendo's biggest series, and there's only two representatives? I think we're lacking a crocodile.

 

[Sabrewulf238]

So, when do you guys think characters unrevealed at release will be 'officially' revealed (on the website)? The renders tend to look pretty good. If those were reused for trophies (or they come from the characters' trophies) that'd be cool.

They'll probably appear shortly after release but have question mark icons rather than showing them directly on the front page. They probably won't update the English websites until the 3DS version is released worldwide though.

Isn't that what they did with the Dojo after Brawls release?

 

[CJ Falcon]

If we're going to argue about series representation, I'd like to bring up Donkey Kong. One of Nintendo's biggest series, and there's only two representatives? I think we're lacking a crocodile.

Yeah, anyone can see that DK definitely deserves at least one newcomer and another monkey would be lame.

 

[Rockaphin]

Honestly, if we don't see a DK newcomer. I'll have to seriously question the character decision process.

Wario, in my opinion, deserves a second character but I don't think it's a necessity.

 

[DustyPumpkin]

When It comes to Veterans being revealed in newcomer Trailers

Ridley - Lucas gets threatened by Ridley and Rescued By Mewtwo, I think that would characterize both of those characters nicely
Shulk and/or Isaac - Whenever I think of a trailer for Shulk or Isaac I find myself adding the other often, Throwing Ness in with them seems like a great Idea because they're all main characters with great power

Marshall/RH Character - It can only be seeing how Warioware and Rhythm Heaven are Rivaling series or something
I guess could also be there what with the whole singing

K.Rool - I'm gong to say and or and they're battling around his Ship and whatnot, Haven't really had a creative trailer come to mind yet

Lip/Mach Rider - Idk I haven't really thought about either of these ladies trailer but maybe and or

 

[Morbi]

If we're going to argue about series representation, I'd like to bring up Donkey Kong. One of Nintendo's biggest series, and there's only two representatives? I think we're lacking a crocodile.

I think we are lacking a certain monkey that looks vaguely similar to Diddy Kong, albeit her gorgeous blond locks distinguish her just enough!

 

[CJ Falcon]

I think we are lacking a certain monkey that looks vaguely similar to Diddy Kong, albeit her gorgeous blond locks distinguish her just enough!

How about

 

[Kenith]

As I have no personal attachment to King K Rool, I would mind seeing Dixie Kong over him.
However, judging from what I've seen, King K Rool is clearly the ideal choice.

 

[ihskeyp]

As a DK fan, I can say I would much rather see Dixie Kong. The DK franchise is getting more and more popular, so it would make sense to add a character who still plays a part in the series, because the many newer DK fans will actually recognize her.
I won't be mad if K Rool gets in, but I would much rather see Dixie.

 

[Burruni]

When It comes to Veterans being revealed in newcomer Trailers

Ridley - Lucas gets threatened by Ridley and Rescued By Mewtwo, I think that would characterize both of those characters nicely
Shulk and/or Isaac - Whenever I think of a trailer for Shulk or Isaac I find myself adding the other often, Throwing Ness in with them seems like a great Idea because they're all main characters with great power

Marshall/RH Character - It can only be seeing how Warioware and Rhythm Heaven are Rivaling series or something
I guess could also be there what with the whole singing

K.Rool - I'm gong to say and or and they're battling around his Ship and whatnot, Haven't really had a creative trailer come to mind yet

Lip/Mach Rider - Idk I haven't really thought about either of these ladies trailer but maybe and or

To explain, Warioware and Rhythm Heaven are both minigame-centric games which use incredibly minimalistic controls made by the same team, which is clear in the art style if nothing else. Warioware normally just has you endure a long series of 5 second weird, quirky, or parody-themed microgames. Rhythm Heaven instead goes with a few variations of a concept that ties into the music of the game that you go through mixing around in for a minute or two, and then the Remix sessions which make you swap through many games you already played in segments of a much longer song to make it to the last note and have ratings based upon how well you do, needing to get a passing amount to move on. As opposed to WW's "hp" system. It's kinda the same situation of classic Metroid and Kid Icarus.

 

[Second Power]

As I have no personal attachment to King K Rool, I would mind seeing Dixie Kong over him.
However, judging from what I've seen, King K Rool is clearly the ideal choice.

Really? I've never played the series but came to the opposite conclusion. K. Rool has been excluded from his franchise for a decent period of time, and more specifically the series' reboot. I know people are always saying that recency means nothing, but consider the age range for the target audience of smash and which DK games they would most likely have played. That makes me think Dixie has the edge in that department.

 

[CJ Falcon]

As a DK fan, I can say I would much rather see Dixie Kong. The DK franchise is getting more and more popular, so it would make sense to add a character who still plays a part in the series, because the many newer DK fans will actually recognize her.
I won't be mad if K Rool gets in, but I would much rather see Dixie.

I don't think we should act like K. Rool is out of the mix forever. He can still make a comeback.

Really? I've never played the series but came to the opposite conclusion. K. Rool has been excluded from his franchise for a decent period of time, and more specifically the series' reboot. I know people are always saying that recency means nothing, but consider the age range for the target audience of smash and which DK games they would most likely have played. That makes me think Dixie has the edge in that department.

Dixie had also been excluded for some time (Jungle Beat + Returns). But she made a comeback. The same can happen for K. Rool. Anyway, the roster for Smash 4 was probably decided without the knowledge that Dixie was going to be in Tropical Freeze so the considered "age range" would have been the same for K. Rool since K. Rool since he had appeared in the same games Dixie had and even more, mind you.

 

[Kenith]

Really? I've never played the series but came to the opposite conclusion. K. Rool has been excluded from his franchise for a decent period of time, and more specifically the series' reboot. I know people are always saying that recency means nothing, but consider the age range for the target audience of smash and which DK games they would most likely have played. That makes me think Dixie has the edge in that department.

Recency means nothing.

King K Rool is still the primary antagonist of the series, and even those who took his place pull a lot from him.
Anyone who cares about Donkey Kong characters besides Donkey Kong himself anyway probably has played one game with him anyway.

Dixie Kong seems somewhat like another Chrom situation to me, honestly. Just less obvious.

 

[ihskeyp]

I don't think we should act like K. Rool is out of the mix forever. He can still make a comeback.

Yeah, but we're talking about smash 4 here, and K Rool will most definitely not make a comeback before smash is released.