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Character Design in PM

Eisen

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I'm not saying take away Lucas' kill power, just tone it down. I think plenty of other characters would love to have his deathgrab's power.

For his recovery his magnet is disjointed so with good timing you could be trying to edge guard him only to go flying off. Yes he is perfectly edgeguardable. I just don't think he needs to kill people when hes really just trying to stall.

If you do Falco's lasers early, they can be dash attacked or crouched under. If you do them late, he has more time vulnerable on the way up. Lucas negates both of these weaknesses by having full control with djc on when and how low he does his projectile. It doesn't need to go as far as Falco's laser either. If you watch PPMD's Falco he almost ever only uses Falco's laser from a certain distance. Its a mid-range distance where he can easily space ftilt, nair etc. in such a fashion that limits your space and options. Because laser is disjointed this makes it perfect for this mid-range. Same applies for Lucas, its just the perfect range and he can retreat and move forward with it, plus it has more hitstun from what I've gathered. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lucas has bair and dair for off-stage so I'm of the opinion hes just straight up better than Falco tbh. Feel free to disagree, but I just think the character has crazy potential. Heck I've had characters spiked in PM by Falco before only for most of them to make it back anyways. Fox doesn't count since you can just double down on him.
Not saying he doesn't have crazy potential, but again, you take PK Freeze too seriously. It does not work at the range Falco's lasers do because of the cooldown and startup on them. Just because it has more stun, doesn't mean you couldn't just as easily Falco laser twice in the same time period or that the stun is too much. Lucas' projectile only works in a very niche range. It doesn't work well close up because it's very easy to just react to and punish, and it doesn't work as well far away because you're too far to do anything but maybe set up for another one/provoke your opponent into approaching.

I don't see how DJCing PKF is any more advantageous or whatever than just fast falling Falco lasers. A) You lose your double jump just to approach and if you time it wrong with its awful startup, you could easily be hit by a fast, aggressive approach like a deep Marth fair, Falcon knee, Falco Laser, Squirtle side B, Bowser fair, etc etc. (and being hit out of double jump is still bad) B ) the only thing being able to double jump does is give you a second chance to time the PK Freeze right. There's only 3 ways this move can come out, by the way:

1. in the air normally, at various heights
2. not at all/you just get the horrendous land lag
3. cancelled and travelling ground distance, but I assure you the timing is very strict on this. Literally harder than Samus' SWD for me, and I've played Lucas adamantly for 15 months vs Samus lukewarmly for 8 months.

So all DJC does is make things riskier for a very slightly more optimized projectile, which is so easy to maneuver around (and is also destructable by several moves).

Lucas is better offstage, yes, but I'd argue he's better at being defensive offstage like Samus, as opposed to Fox and Falco's offstage game, which is mostly "do I attack/gimp, recover, or attack then recover?" There are just some things that you're not supposed to do against him. You don't get a free gimp just because you approach the kid offstage. Just like you wouldn't risk being intercepted by Fox's shine, or Falco's dair, or either one of their bairs/nairs, or Ganon's suicide, Falco's illusion any spike, etc.
 

Blank Mauser

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PK Freeze is definitely a commitment when just about any character can call you out on it and approach for free by shffling through the projectile.
Magnet is a commitment because it lacks range and safety. It's really only a standard pressure tool against someone who shields without knowing what they're doing. Lucas almost always has to use his safer pressure options (DJC fair, for example) to force a shield in the first place, and even when that happens, WD back eliminates the threat of safe magnet pressure. And no, PK Freeze does not force shielding like Falco's lasers do simply because it can be swatted with something as simple as SH retreating fair. The key difference from Falco's shine is that the magnet does not force a
Dair isn't safe on shield, and lacks any sort of protective coverage whatsoever. It doesn't have extremely good mixup synergy with magnet, in spite of this, though, since neither is particular dangerous for the defender to trade with.

While in range of his opponent, just about everything Lucas does to start a big combo runs a high risk of being cleanly hit out of or easily blocked, in contrast to spacies. So, while up close, I would say that is how Lucas commits to his offensive options. Part of the actual problem is that when Lucas knows his opponent needs to try to hit him, and he's too fast to pin down, then he can stay back and punish small openings. Again, it's not ubiquitous across the cast, though, and might simply be solved by players and/or characters not being forced to approach as much in the future meta.
I don't think nair and dair are unsafe on shield against most characters when you land behind them.(Also hitting with the last hit helps) So essentially yes you get them to shield with djc fair first before you go in. From there you can just do B-reverse magnet as a trap. The fact that his attacks hit multiple times also help him shield poke. I'll give you the weakness of PK freeze being able to be destroyed, still think its amazing though.

Also I don't think it contrasts with spacies much. Even if you double shine or shine grab spacies don't have 100% safe pressure options on shield either, specially against other spacies. Not to mention their most optimal combos require you to know you'll hit them ahead of time. For instance you wouldn't always nair > shine someone when you could Nair into more nair/bair/uair/Usmash. Falco can though I'll admit which is why I compare him more to Lucas than Fox.

Not saying he doesn't have crazy potential, but again, you take PK Freeze too seriously. It does not work at the range Falco's lasers do because of the cooldown and startup on them. Just because it has more stun, doesn't mean you couldn't just as easily Falco laser twice in the same time period or that the stun is too much. Lucas' projectile only works in a very niche range. It doesn't work well close up because it's very easy to just react to and punish, and it doesn't work as well far away because you're too far to do anything but maybe set up for another one/provoke your opponent into approaching.

I don't see how DJCing PKF is any more advantageous or whatever than just fast falling Falco lasers. A) You lose your double jump just to approach and if you time it wrong with its awful startup, you could easily be hit by a fast, aggressive approach like a deep Marth fair, Falcon knee, Falco Laser, Squirtle side B, Bowser fair, etc etc. (and being hit out of double jump is still bad) B ) the only thing being able to double jump does is give you a second chance to time the PK Freeze right. There's only 3 ways this move can come out, by the way:

1. in the air normally, at various heights
2. not at all/you just get the horrendous land lag
3. cancelled and travelling ground distance, but I assure you the timing is very strict on this. Literally harder than Samus' SWD for me, and I've played Lucas adamantly for 15 months vs Samus lukewarmly for 8 months.

So all DJC does is make things riskier for a very slightly more optimized projectile, which is so easy to maneuver around (and is also destructable by several moves).

Lucas is better offstage, yes, but I'd argue he's better at being defensive offstage like Samus, as opposed to Fox and Falco's offstage game, which is mostly "do I attack/gimp, recover, or attack then recover?" There are just some things that you're not supposed to do against him. You don't get a free gimp just because you approach the kid offstage. Just like you wouldn't risk being intercepted by Fox's shine, or Falco's dair, or either one of their bairs/nairs, or Ganon's suicide, Falco's illusion any spike, etc.
I don't find djc'ing Lucas's projectile that hard personally. There is almost no landing lag from it from what I can tell. I'll give you that its easy to maneuver around. Falco can shoot multiple lasers to cover platforms, intercept off-stage, and is more dominating. But for the purpose of it being a disjointed poke I still think its amazing. Getting hit out of it can be solved by just not using it from bad ranges.

So if your purpose was to dissuade me from thinking Lucas is better than Falco in every way than yes you have dissuaded me. You guys are right he works much better defensively. He'd fit in the meta great but I don't think he needs every single thing he has. Any mid-tier and below character would probably love to have a quarter of what he has.
 

Frost | Odds

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It's interesting that there's been a full page of discussion of Lucas's insanely safe neutral game without a single mention of the zair.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Care to explain why? *curious*
He's Ryu light, he lost anything that made him unique and instead just a not really fun shoto clone. I don't even hate shoto character I like them all in street fighter, Ryu, Sakura, Ken, Akuma, Dan, Goken etc. But Lucario just doesn't fit this and feel right when I play him that way or even trying to make him that way. He doesn't feel right in this game and I'd rather not play him over Peach/Link/Roy, but the sad thing is I play the best with him and I really really hate that I do.
 
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Frost | Odds

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Sorry, I don't play traditional fighters. What's a 'shoto'?

Also, @ the lucas discussion: please note that the only weakness of PKF is big, disjointed, lingering, frontal hitboxes.

Because everyone in the cast has one of those.
 
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Chevy

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Lucas' recovery options are complete trash compared to the rest of the cast. That is an absolute glaring weakness he has on top of being incredibly easy to combo because of his fallspeed. Lucas is designed to be like Fox/Falco/Wolf. Amazing on stage, combo oriented gameplay, jump cancelable shield pressure, etc at the cost of having one of the worst recoveries in the game (not in distance or height, just that it's incredibly easy to block him). Tethers are not a huge problem like you claim them to be, otherwise people would have been *****ing so hard about Samus in Melee, but no one ever did. In fact, tethering is WORSE in PM than it was in Melee, so like, wtf ever yaknow lol
Melee tethers are not more powerful than PM, at all. In PM, you can air-dodge->auto-snap->repeat up to 3 times with an up-B mixed up when you want on top of double jump mix-ups if you save your jump before tethering. In Melee, you get 1 tether per air-time and actually have to aim for a surface. This gives you more sheer distance on walled stages, but it's much easier to intercept and much harder to perform properly. Basically: Melee tethers - many decent options, somewhat difficult to do properly. PM tethers - One braindead easy option with a bunch of easy mix-ups attached.

This obviously doesn't fall on PMBR, it's just a bad leftover Brawl mechanic that's become more abuseable with directional air-dodge. On topic: I think Samus is super well designed but I want Melee tethers bad.
 

PillsBuryDopeBoy

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Sorry, I don't play traditional fighters. What's a 'shoto'?

Also, @ the lucas discussion: please note that the only weakness of PKF is big, disjointed, lingering, frontal hitboxes.

Because everyone in the cast has one of those.
"Shotokan Character (Shoto, Shotoclone) refers to a group of characters who employ a fighting style introduced with Ryu in the original Street Fighter, characterized by Shoryuken, Hadouken, and Tatsumaki(Hurricane Kick)."

Basically any character that shares these moves is a shoto.
 
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NisforSmash

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Sorry, I don't play traditional fighters. What's a 'shoto'?
Shotokan is the fighting style their movesets are all based off of. Shoto for short.

He's Ryu light, he lost anything that made him unique and instead just a not really fun shoto clone. I don't even hate shoto character I like them all in street fighter, Ryu, Sakura, Ken, Akuma, Dan, Goken etc. But Lucario just doesn't fit this and feel right when I play him that way or even trying to make him that way. He doesn't feel right in this game and I'd rather not play him over Peach/Link/Roy, but the sad thing is I play the best with him and I really really hate that I do.
I can agree to this. It's not so much his special moves for me but his normal attacks. Perhaps if they tried to make lucario into actual lucario as opposed to creating a shoto character. Not that the shoto idea is bad but for lucario, i don't think it fits as good as it could on say another character.

/lucariotalk

I think everything about Lucas is fine as it is.

A character that needs better design is jiggs. Her 2 calling cards aren't as useable as they used to be and beyond that she wasn't even that well designed in the first place. She really needs the healing mechanic ivy has. Perhaps on a successful rest jiggs should recover 25% damage or something like that. Decreasing the startup frames on sing, increasing the range on it, and allowing her to jump out of it would also help. Making pound go a bit further would give it more meaningful usage. Rollout i think is fine if she can hit someone with it. Decreasing the number of frames until it's fully charged by 5-10 would make it more usable, especially on tech chases. If they're going to revamp jiggs, i'd rather see them get creative and provide useful contructive additions onto her moveset as opposed to changing it altogether. While she is poorly designed, she is very fixable by making her smash's version of a glass canon character.
 
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PillsBuryDopeBoy

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He's Ryu light, he lost anything that made him unique and instead just a not really fun shoto clone. I don't even hate shoto character I like them all in street fighter, Ryu, Sakura, Ken, Akuma, Dan, Goken etc. But Lucario just doesn't fit this and feel right when I play him that way or even trying to make him that way. He doesn't feel right in this game and I'd rather not play him over Peach/Link/Roy, but the sad thing is I play the best with him and I really really hate that I do.
at first I didn't really like the fact that they made him into a magic series character, but as I started to play with him more a more, I grew to love that about him. He's basically the one character who's combo potential is out of this world.
 

NisforSmash

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at first I didn't really like the fact that they made him into a magic series character, but as I started to play with him more a more, I grew to love that about him. He's basically the one character who's combo potential is out of this world.
For me lucario is easily in the top 10. The magic series gives him so much potential if someone can utilize it to the fullest.
 

Frost | Odds

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I *really* should've caught that. Brown belt in shotokan karate when I was a wee one. Thanks guys!

I think Lucario is major sleeper tier still. Nobody's anywhere near having fully explored his combo game.
 

Eisen

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If I can make a blanket statement here to sum up my arguments, I think Lucas right now has potential to be a glass cannon character like Falcon (strong finishers, not a ton of super-good options) or a more middle-of-the-road character like Wolf of Ike. Right now, though, Lucas has properties of both, and it's kind of hard for me to say which I think is better suited for him, honestly. He can't be both, though. He needs weaknesses somewhere, but most fingers are pointing toward recovery, which I can get on board with. Just, maybe don't nerf his other stuff TOO hard in that case. He needs some solid damage confirms too, not just read/DI-based/situational crazy combos.
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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at first I didn't really like the fact that they made him into a magic series character, but as I started to play with him more a more, I grew to love that about him. He's basically the one character who's combo potential is out of this world.
I agree, his combo potential in PM is huge and they did add things I liked. Aerial grab, double team is a lot more useful. And the magic series can lead to a lot of omg awesome moments.

Still I'm bothered by the change, I blame maiming him since 2008 in Brawl but it does. Lucario in brawl, actually had legit combos an an identity. He was high risk high reward. And focused on a strong air and juggle game with footsie play on the ground.

If people say "aura rewards you for losing" they are wrong. Lucario gets debuffed from aura at 0%. He has to deal with the fact he can't kill or do damage early. This is why Fox, DK, Wolf, even Bowser did as well as they did against him in Brawl. He had a clear weakness. This is also why his UpB was so gimp able, it made it clear he had these great strengths but had these weaknesses as well. Yes he beat people with poor kill power but nothing was unwinnable unless the character had huge issues already.

I just don't like this entire 180, he is far more ground based in PM and his combo game is all on the ground unless you use fair into sideB or AC Aura Sphere, this one is a read admitingly.

I just want consistentcy, Snash 4 he will be the same but more moves will use aura, lol his UpB. I'm bothered by this and granted I really appriate and like what the PM team has done. They made Brawl more enjoyable for a lot of people and I do like that even with my complants. But this has has been something that bothered be even months before the "Ryu stuff" was revealed, someone leaked it to me back then but I kept quiet til it was revealed.

I wanna feel like I am playing the same character, like I do with Link/Peach/Roy. with Lucario I don't get this at all.
 
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Circle_Breaker

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To be honest a lot of the new character designs in brawl made me scratch my head and wonder what they were thinking. Pit with his multiple reflectors, Wario, Zamus, Sonic, and Lucario. All of them had moves that just felt BAD imo. Not useless and weak necessarily, just somehow wrong and slapped together. Wario's bike? Wtf is this thing? Lots of gimmicky designs after Melee which felt a lot more like a logical expansion of 64. So far most of the changes in P:M have made me mostly forget the kind of gross feeling I got from brawl. As much as the characters might have overcentralizing moves and imperfect balance, they all pretty much make sense when I play them. I was really stoked to play Sonic before Brawl came out and he felt ****ing awful in that game. Now he feels like I expected him to (not that he doesn't need more tweaking).

What I'm saying is, despite any complaints I may have, great job overall, PMBR. Also I don't know how anybody but a long time Brawl Lucario main could prefer his old design.

Edit: a word
 
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#HBC | Red Ryu

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To be honest a lot of the new character designs in brawl made me scratch my head and wonder what they were thinking. Pit with his multiple reflectors, Wario, Zamus, Sonic, and Lucario. All of them had moves that just felt BAD imo. Not useless and weak necessarily, just somehow wrong and slapped together. Wario's bike? Wtf is this thing? Lots of gimmicky designs after Melee which felt a lot more like a logical expansion of 64. So far most of the changes in P:M have made me mostly forget the kind of gross feeling I got from brawl. As much as the characters might have overcentralizing moves and imperfect balance, they all pretty much make sense when I play them. I was really stoked to play Sonic before Brawl came out and he felt ****ing awful in that game. Now he feels like I expected him to (not that he doesn't need more tweaking).

What I'm saying is, despite any complaints I may have, great job overall, PMBR. Also I don't know how anybody but a long time Brawl Lucario main could prefer his old design.

Edit: a word
I very much appreciate a post like this.
 

Circle_Breaker

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Yeah no disrespect for your preferences either I just wanted to put it out there that the PMBR has been killing it with every character they've changed so far in my view.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Yeah no disrespect for your preferences either I just wanted to put it out there that the PMBR has been killing it with every character they've changed so far in my view.
Nah it's all good, if people prefer PM Lucario go for it. I definitely see why they prefer him. It's just me and my entire self experience with Brawl with why I don't like how he plays.

Yet despite all this, he is still my best character in PM ;_;.
 

PlateProp

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MOAR LUCAS TALK :D

Personally I dont think Lucas's fighting style represents him very well. He's the slowest party member with the heavy hitting attacks (The Tank lololol) but in p:m he's like a damn rocket.

I guess the did get the tank part right though, seeing his recovery options
 

Mr.Pickle

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For easy reference that's:bowser2::dk2::ivysaur::kirby2::lucario::lucas::mario2::gw::ness2::olimar::sonic::yoshi2::zelda::mewtwopm:.

I'm not disagreeing by any means but why do you have G&W, Kirby, Olimar and Ness down there?
I'm so sorry Circle_Breaker, I meant to respond to your post so long ago, but various reasons, mostly procrastination, kept me from it. In case you're still interested in why I put those characters in there I'll tell you. In all honesty, I was a little hasty when I made this list, and I feel like I should have listed more categories to more appropriately group the characters in. But in any case, here are the reasons I put them there initially.

With ness, it stems mostly from pk fire, which is pretty much the only thing he has in neutral, and he gains massive rewards with it if landed. But it doesn't truly fix him, and once you know how to get around it, which isn't difficult, he's back to being a mediocre character. His up b having no end lag plays a little part into it, and it encourages a sort of indifference from the player with it's placement, both offstage and on.

Now in kirby's case, I'm going to say that it comes from his horizontal cutter and dash attack. Both of these moves are very good, with both of them being pretty good on shield, on hit, and generally versatile. They're not as over centralizing as pk fire is, but they do overshadow some of kirby's options, in favor of something that requires less commitment and technical skill, and serves multiple purposes at once.

I honestly forgot about olimar, he goes in the, "I don't know enough about this character" category. I've only fought one olimar.....ever, and that's probably going to be most smasher's answer lol.

With G&W, it's the jump out of upb. It pretty much makes the move unpunishable in a lot of situations, and because of that, he doesn't have to respect very much you do to him. Not only that, but it gives him quite of bit of offensive potential to his strings. And to add icing to the cake, it makes his fairly decent recovery a lot safer. Basically, if it wasn't for this, G&W would be perfectly designed, but since he has it, I find it hard to consider his design fair.

So yeah again sorry for taking so long lol, hopefully this makes sense, and that I articulated my point decently.
 
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Phan7om

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Idk, since I main Kirby I know the most about him more than other chars, but Kirby needs a lot of fixing and is no where near fine in 3.02 and is easily top 5 characters that need the most changed about them imo.
 

Mr.Pickle

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Idk, since I main Kirby I know the most about him more than other chars, but Kirby needs a lot of fixing and is no where near fine in 3.02 and is easily top 5 characters that need the most changed about them imo.
What do you think is the cause of this, and if you could, what would you do to fix him?
 

Phan7om

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What do you think is the cause of this, and if you could, what would you do to fix him?
I have a big list but im not gonna post it here. But the big points of it are removing Kirbyciding, Making Dash Attack less reliable, and buffing alot of his normals, also giving him more air mobility.
 

InfinityCollision

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Why do you feel that Kirbyciding should be removed? Do you also advocate removing suicide techniques from Ganondorf, DK, etc?
 

Phan7om

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Maybe removed wasnt the best word. You should still be able to do them, but not nearly as easy. As of right now, Ive heard from many people, spamming Dash Attack and then forcing Kirbycides when you have the lead is basically how they said one should play Kirby. I dont agree with them, but if they think that, that means something's wrong. DK's Ganon's and D3s are fine. You never really see anyone say "Oh to play DK all you have to do is get the stock lead and then try to force a Cargo suicide on their next 3 stocks."

Basically, its not really the suicide thats the problem, its how viable a choice Kirby's is.
 
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pooch182

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I'm pretty late to this thread, because I never post anything, but I figure I'd throw in my two cents.

Firstly, I'd like to look at a few very well designed characters, at least well designed from my perspective. The first would be Falco. With Falco, you've got an incredible ground game, and a very solid projectile used for zoning. You can also use this projectile to approach, and after approaching, you can really put on heavy shield pressure if you're technical enough. He's basically got all the things that Melee Falco has. This includes his ability to be combo'd to hell, and his overall glass canon design. Where his match up spread may have been absurd in Melee, the mechanics from Brawl that still exist in Project M, really tone down his overall placement on the theoretical tier list. Is this because of the design of other characters? In part, yes; but the primary reason for his lesser status in PM is due to the actual mechanics of the game. Essentially, what PM is, is a jumble of Smash 64, in that you've got a lot of auto combos/easy follow ups regardless of DI, Melee, which is obviously seen through ground speed and fall speeds, as well as the general feel a faster neutral game in most match ups, and Brawl, where most of the off-stage design of play finds its roots.

It's very easy to point fingers at poor character design, and figure that it's primarily character design that needs to be fixed in PM. In my own opinion, it's very difficult to fine-tune a character, when the actual mechanics of your game aren't completely sound at this point. It's easy to just tweak the design of a character from Melee, and assume that whatever buffs/nerfs you've given that character will make them more balanced. This just simply isn't true. Take, for example, Sheik.

Sheik is no longer a threatening character, at least, not anywhere near as threatening as she was in Melee. With a heavy nerf on her needles and grab game, one would assume that she would still be able to thrive with strong tilts that lead into fair or other great edge-guarding combos. Sure, this is somewhat true against a bunch of characters, but then you look at her off stage game. Sheik suffers off stage in Melee, which is something that could be said for a lot of the cast of that game. She still suffers off stage in PM, with a very short UpB that has a ton of end-lag if you land on stage with it. Basically, if you hit Sheik off the stage, you've got her dead to rights, especially as a character like Meta Knight, or any other character that doesn't have to be afraid to go out and hound someone off the ledge. Now, you've got a Sheik who has a significantly worse neutral game and the same off-stage game as she did in Melee, where PM pretty much demands a very strong offstage game to even be considered a viable character for the most part.

This doesn't mean I feel that Sheik should be buffed in any particular way. Considering the massive changes to the off-stage mechanics of the game in 3.5, I feel that the Dev Team have taken the biggest step in the right direction since this announcement. Once we have sound mechanics established in the PM universe, it will be much easier to determine whether or not a character has poor design.

That being said, some characters stand out above the rest. Doing a relatively simple pro-con analysis of characters can reveal whether or not their flaws balance out their strengths. Let's take a look at Mewtwo.

Mewtwo has an incredible neutral game. He's got tilts with a decent sized disjoint, and very low hitlag. Up-tilt strings into itself, and then into Up-air for a lot of percentage. He can follow opponents DI very easily with float, and he also has a long reaching back-air to cover DI behind him. This is on top of Shadow ball, which comes out relatively fast, especially when you consider the type of projectile it is. Samus and Lucario have similar styled projectiles, but Samus' takes longer to start up, and Lucario's is slower after coming out. Mewtwo gets the best of both worlds for this style of projectile, as well as a 'bouncing' trajectory that can make power shielding more difficult. Mewtwo is a character that, as he is designed right now, can never truly lose the neutral. This is because of his ability to attack out of UpB. Even after getting hit out of the neutral, Mewtwo can teleport in plenty of directions to either go to the ledge (where he can infinitely stall or teleport to center stage and throw a hitbox out) or just return to the neutral and throw out a hitbox to beat out his opponent.

Mewtwo also has a very strong grab game, with a huge grab range, that also extends behind him slightly. He can kill with back throw and up-throw, or down throw into a plenty of moves that will lead to a combo. He can also pressure your shield with well spaced float-nairs. These float nairs can be used to cross up the opponent while they're in shield stun, and then leads to a relatively easy grab while you're behind them, especially against characters with poor OoS options.

What are Mewtwo's weaknesses? The first one is statistical. His floatiness means that he'll die off the top relatively quickly. Any character with a kill throw will be fishing for grabs against Mewtwo at any chance they get. Another weakness is more player-specific. A lot of Mewtwo players are very aggressive with their teleports, and the design of Mewtwo, as was previously mentioned, never really gives them a direct sign that they've lost the neutral. When put into bad positions, a lot of characters can just out space a stupid teleport and punish, which will usually kill. This means that the players themselves must realize when they've lost the neutral.

Considering I'm not a Mewtwo main, I can't really come up with other weaknesses off the top of my head, but I'm sure they exist. What I'm not sure about, and in fact very skeptical of, is whether his weaknesses balance out his strengths. The same concern exists for Diddy, who has an incredible ground game, astounding off-stage game, killing aerials, smashes, and throws, etc. The positives outweigh the negatives A LOT.

Something that does annoy me when reading about whether or not a character is broken, is the negligence of the idea of a skill ceiling and skill floor. A character like Lucas is very, very good, and in a lot of aspects, he needs to be toned down to make sense. A lot of that is being done in 3.5. Most of his design, though, makes plenty of sense. He's a difficult character to use properly, and so you've got to factor in the skill ceiling. You don't see too many godlike Lucas mains, but there are a few that shine so brightly, that when you watch footage of their play, you can't help but feel that everything about Lucas is broken. That just simply isn't true. Looking back at Falco for a second, consider the precision and speed your hands need to properly pressure a shield with no real 'holes' in your pressure. It's very technical and extremely difficult to consistently maintain such solid pressure. A lot of characters require you to work very hard to play well. Characters like Ike, Roy, Pikachu, and Falco are pretty good examples of these high skill ceiling, as well as a relatively high skill floor. You can't just pick up these characters and play them like a god. A character like Mario, however. . .

I'm really starting to ramble on here, but let me give a final summation. Game design is something that is very hard to look at so objectively, especially in a game that's so dynamic as Project M. Right now, the game is still in its youth, and every new iteration clears a huge part of the game's slate. We've yet to see what the final version of Project M will play like, but I assure you it won't be what it is right now, so arguing for slight changes in characters is usually semantics for semantics sake, in my own opinion. Discussing the general mechanics of game play, and sorting those out first, are a priority, and character design, for the most part, should be placed on the back-burner until we feel comfortable with the mechanics of the game.
 

DMG

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DMG#931
Is that THE pooch? Come back to Texas sometime, you're one of my fav OOS people!
 

pooch182

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Is that THE pooch? Come back to Texas sometime, you're one of my fav OOS people!
You're god-damn right it's me. Texas is the fuggin' bomb, so I'm definitely heading down there for LTC3. Also, if you're going to BH4, you'll see me there.
 
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DMG

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DMG#931
Most of M2 weaknesses were buffed out. Dying off the top? Weight was buffed. Bad on shields? Floats. Tail hurtboxes? Not as vulnerable. Freefall after Upb? HUEHUEHUE

M2's weakness = bad player behind the character. We're barely even scratching the surface with footstools.
 

victinivcreate1

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They, uh, don't.
No johns bruh. He forgot one thing though. Mewtwo is kinda *** on smaller stages. He needs space. At the end of the day, Mewtwo is basically Marth with a TP that is seemingly quick (takes over 30 frames to act out of, 5 frame jumpsquat +23 frame TP where on frame 23 he can fair/nair, both 5 frames, in total 33 frames, if frame perfect). Also the fact that he can't TP downwards through plats like he could in Melee makes his TP game on smaller stages a whole lot weaker. Character is still broken though, but he's probably only top 5. Lucas, Diddy, Pit are far more immediately broken.

Anyway back to topic on hand.
Best design worst execution? By far Mewtwo. Not arguable. They shouldn't have let him keep his Melee tilt frame data. Huge *** anti air tilts. Also should have put a bit of ending lag on his aerials. And lol why is he able to Hover out of TP? Dumb.

Sucky design, sucky execution? Bowser. A character based off armor is dumb and in the end doesn't work that well.
Lucas too, because how the hell you you get a projectile that pops you up, the biggest DACUS in the game, considering its one of the most powerful smashes in the game, and can cross entire small stages and a guaranteed follow up out of dthrow if you DI behind it, tons of autocombos, a kill throw ALONG WITH OU Up Smash, a back air that no matter where you hit it with, its still a powerful edgeguard tool (be it spike or strong horizontal KB move), a in PSI Magnet, insane combo ability with dair, uair, up tilt, nair, etc., one of the biggest wavedashes and dash dances in the game, a spacing system that rewards tipping, DJC (not broken, but the fact that he has the option is just insane considering what he already has), a really long Up B recovery, PSI Magnet able to stall multiple times and you can even pseudo glide out of it AND it hits repeatedly until you end it/cancel it, and a significantly better tether in Rope Snake. Literally his only downfall is that he falls kinda fast.

Diddy Kong? Bananas should disappear on shield. Also why does he get Sheik's fair but more range? And easily the dumbest recovery in the game (you get punished for edgeguarding him). Ape Flip should put him in helpless. Also he didn't need a kill throw (seriously everyone has a killer up/back throw now like really). Other than that he was fine. Problem is what he has was WAYYY too good. People call Mewtwo unbeatable, Diddy already had tons of combos IN BRAWL, in a game where combos actually exist and high level play is much faster, well the amount of combos Diddy can do effective double. Appears to be better than Mewtwo. Results show it too.

Pit is arguably the least jank because he has the least tools. But his recovery is really dumb. He should lose all jumps after using Wings of Icarus. Also his moves could use less hitstun. And nerf the dthrow chaingrab so it doesn't last as long.

There are other characters that have really silly things about them (Ivysaur's dtilt is the most absurd thing i know of, the fact that Sonic's best option in multiple situations is Spin Dash is dumb and he gets free follow ups off up throw, spin and Homing Attack, Ness has the same issue with PK Fire, Mario is just hilariously silly because he basically has CG immunity, is a CC god, has great CC options, LOL TIPPER DTILT HAS INVINCIBILITY AT HIS TOE, Fireballs/Pills, the huge disjointed crazy priority Up B, Sheik's Melee down throw, etc). The best part about Mario is his Worldstar Punch. I say buff that :troll:
Best designed characters
:roypm::wolf::rob::samus2::snake::metaknight::ike::link2::lucario:
I say these are the best designed because you can play these guys in so many ways and still be succesful. PMBR must have been on something when they made these. I say stay on that and keep making genius designs like these.

@ DMG DMG Samus' is heavier than Mewtwo and still dies off the top to Fox's up smash at like 70-75.
 
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pooch182

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That's because weight has nothing to do with vertical momentum. Samus and Mewtwo are both heavy and floaty, meaning it's harder to kill them off the sides, and they'll die early off the top.

Fall speed =Vertical
Weight = Horizontal
 

DrinkingFood

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Wow these last two ultra long posts have also be ultra wrong, ****'s sake how can you type so much and be so wrong about it
I would address them if they weren't so ****ing long and if I weren't on mobile
 
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PMS | Tink-er

fie on thee
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No johns bruh. He forgot one thing though. Mewtwo is kinda *** on smaller stages. He needs space. At the end of the day, Mewtwo is basically Marth with a TP that is seemingly quick (takes over 30 frames to act out of, 5 frame jumpsquat +23 frame TP where on frame 23 he can fair/nair, both 5 frames, in total 33 frames, if frame perfect). Also the fact that he can't TP downwards through plats like he could in Melee makes his TP game on smaller stages a whole lot weaker. Character is still broken though, but he's probably only top 5. Lucas, Diddy, Pit are far more immediately broken.

Anyway back to topic on hand.
Best design worst execution? By far Mewtwo. Not arguable. They shouldn't have let him keep his Melee tilt frame data. Huge *** anti air tilts. Also should have put a bit of ending lag on his aerials. And lol why is he able to Hover out of TP? Dumb.

Sucky design, sucky execution? Bowser. A character based off armor is dumb and in the end doesn't work that well.
Lucas too, because how the hell you you get a projectile that pops you up, the biggest DACUS in the game, considering its one of the most powerful smashes in the game, and can cross entire small stages and a guaranteed follow up out of dthrow if you DI behind it, tons of autocombos, a kill throw ALONG WITH OU Up Smash, a back air that no matter where you hit it with, its still a powerful edgeguard tool (be it spike or strong horizontal KB move), a in PSI Magnet, insane combo ability with dair, uair, up tilt, nair, etc., one of the biggest wavedashes and dash dances in the game, a spacing system that rewards tipping, DJC (not broken, but the fact that he has the option is just insane considering what he already has), a really long Up B recovery, PSI Magnet able to stall multiple times and you can even pseudo glide out of it AND it hits repeatedly until you end it/cancel it, and a significantly better tether in Rope Snake. Literally his only downfall is that he falls kinda fast.

Diddy Kong? Bananas should disappear on shield. Also why does he get Sheik's fair but more range? And easily the dumbest recovery in the game (you get punished for edgeguarding him). Ape Flip should put him in helpless. Also he didn't need a kill throw (seriously everyone has a killer up/back throw now like really). Other than that he was fine. Problem is what he has was WAYYY too good. People call Mewtwo unbeatable, Diddy already had tons of combos IN BRAWL, in a game where combos actually exist and high level play is much faster, well the amount of combos Diddy can do effective double. Appears to be better than Mewtwo. Results show it too.

Pit is arguably the least jank because he has the least tools. But his recovery is really dumb. He should lose all jumps after using Wings of Icarus. Also his moves could use less hitstun. And nerf the dthrow chaingrab so it doesn't last as long.

There are other characters that have really silly things about them (Ivysaur's dtilt is the most absurd thing i know of, the fact that Sonic's best option in multiple situations is Spin Dash is dumb and he gets free follow ups off up throw, spin and Homing Attack, Ness has the same issue with PK Fire, Mario is just hilariously silly because he basically has CG immunity, is a CC god, has great CC options, LOL TIPPER DTILT HAS INVINCIBILITY AT HIS TOE, Fireballs/Pills, the huge disjointed crazy priority Up B, Sheik's Melee down throw, etc). The best part about Mario is his Worldstar Punch. I say buff that :troll:
Best designed characters
:roypm::wolf::rob::samus2::snake::metaknight::ike::link2::lucario:
I say these are the best designed because you can play these guys in so many ways and still be succesful. PMBR must have been on something when they made these. I say stay on that and keep making genius designs like these.

@ DMG DMG Samus' is heavier than Mewtwo and still dies off the top to Fox's up smash at like 70-75.
lol link's ability to wall with projectiles is absurd. turtling should not be that effective in any fighting game.

mewtwo isn't great design. he's got some interesting ideas executed poorly. he's too fast, dies too late, has too many options in neutral, has an excellent projectile, has an absurd grab game, infinite stall, top tier recovery, and top tier off stage game. needing everything to be toned down and reworked isn't great design. the ideas were interesting, but the meta has proven that those ideas need to be relooked with scrutiny.

conversely, lucas has almost no options in neutral beyond zoning with pk freeze to get in. lucas is very similar to falco in this sense. lucas' wavedash and DACUS are part of his combo game. they're respectively analogous to waveshining w/ falco and waveshine u smashing w/ fox (again this is why lucas gets called a spacie). lucas is a well designed character with less than stellar execution. the dair infinite is not much different from waveshine locking w/ fox, but the meta hasn't addressed it like it's addressed fox's shine. it's much too easy, though, and lucas really doesn't need it in his kit. OU is weird, and I don't know how I feel about it. I sorta feel like it shouldn't be a charge, and instead it's own move. I'd prefer if it were just the burst that it already does when released. he's got good combo and kill aerials because he's a heavily combo oriented character, how is that bad? lucas' recovery is too good for a spacie, but that's already being addressed in 3.5 with just a couple minor tweaks. that said, where in your mind did you get the idea that PKT2 goes far at all? it's incredibly short, and much weaker than ness' PKT2. it's usually lucas' last resort for recovery.

armor is totally a viable character design. see squirtle. Bowser needs to be tweaked, but he's not unusable.

Wow these last two ultra long posts have also be ultra wrong, ****'s sake how can you type so much and be so wrong about it
I would address them if they weren't so ****ing long and if I weren't on mobile
how bout that ROB though? secret mid tier amirite
 
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