Character Design in PM

[Mera Mera]

Oh ya, and d throw to u smash doesn't work with good DI.

I'm fairly certain this is false. OU up smash hits high enough to hit people standing on the top platform of Yoshi's Story. The size of the hitbox is the problem. As a result you can simply follow the DI and up smash in the correct spot. No DI escapes this unless Lucas' back is near a ledge, preventing him from following DI that's down and away or just away.

Edit: For the record, while I do think Lucas needs some balance tweaks, I agree with you in the sentiment that the character's playstyle is unique and well designed. Lucas is a very cool character.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'm fairly certain this is false. OU up smash hits high enough to hit people standing on the top platform of Yoshi's Story. The size of the hitbox is the problem. As a result you can simply follow the DI and up smash in the correct spot. No DI escapes this unless Lucas' back is near a ledge, preventing him from following DI that's down and away or just away.

Edit: For the record, while I do think Lucas needs some balance tweaks, I agree with you in the sentiment that the character's playstyle is unique and well designed. Lucas is a very cool character.

Agreed on the edit part. Lucas has a few questionable qualities, but unlike a lot of other supposedly dominant characters he commits to his offensive and defensive options while up close or approaching, and makes sacrifices in safety for his best combo starters (farther away is a different matter, since in more than a few MUs Lucas can be a bit too capable of just avoiding his opponent, but that might be more dependent on other characters/players at the moment).

For the rest, it's rather character-specific. Fastfallers can escape with down+away up to higher %s, since they can tech before Lucas can reach them with DACUS. Anyone floatier just jumps out after a certain height. Semi-fastfallers can do both at the appropriate percentages and are quite good at escaping (but may get chaingrabbed in exchange). What needs tweaking, or at least looking in to, I think, is that for a lot of characters, their % range for escaping doesn't come until a bit after KO percent, so it's up to Lucas to just grab at the right time, which isn't all too difficult for him given hit-confirms and occasionally chaingrabs.
I know that a few people, Lucas mains and otherwise, have expressed that they wouldn't mind if the OU hitbox size-increase were reduced, even back down to the level of non-OU. Design-wise, I agree with this. It doesn't quite make sense that OU, which is meant to reward accurate use of smash attacks, should also decrease the accuracy needed from the player to get said increased reward. It would also alleviate dthrow-usmash problem by decreasing the percent window at which grab = death by usmash.

 

[Zimflare]

For the rest, it's rather character-specific. Fastfallers can escape with down+away up to higher %s, since they can tech before Lucas can reach them with DACUS. Anyone floatier just jumps out after a certain height. Semi-fastfallers can do both at the appropriate percentages and are quite good at escaping (but may get chaingrabbed in exchange). What needs tweaking, or at least looking in to, I think, is that for a lot of characters, their % range for escaping doesn't come until a bit after KO percent, so it's up to Lucas to just grab at the right time, which isn't all too difficult for him given hit-confirms and occasionally chaingrabs.
I know that a few people, Lucas mains and otherwise, have expressed that they wouldn't mind if the OU hitbox size-increase were reduced, even back down to the level of non-OU. Design-wise, I agree with this. It doesn't quite make sense that OU, which is meant to reward accurate use of smash attacks, should also decrease the accuracy needed from the player to get said increased reward. It would also alleviate dthrow-usmash problem by decreasing the percent window at which grab = death by usmash.

Thank you for putting that so I didn't have too haha but that was a very good explanation. It is very character and DI dependent you would be surprised how many characters can jump out of it though.

OU up smash hits high enough to hit people standing on the top platform of Yoshi's Story.

What game are you playing? This is the PM forums.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

What game are you playing? This is the PM forums.

dude wat
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Yoshi's_Island:_Yoshi's_Story

I've never seen somebody so verbose with no idea what they're talking about

 

[Zimflare]

dude wat
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/Yoshi's_Island:_Yoshi's_Story

I've never seen somebody so verbose with no idea what they're talking about

*facepalm*

Do I even need to say anything here? I was referring the fact that Lucas can't hit people with his up smash on the top platform of YS. I must say, I have seen somebody so ignorant with no idea what they're talking about. Try not to be that somebody.

 

[shairn]

*facepalm*

Do I even need to say anything here? I was referring the fact that Lucas can't hit people with his up smash on the top platform of YS. I must say, I have seen somebody so ignorant with no idea what they're talking about. Try not to be that somebody.

This guy though

Go in PM and try it out
it does work

 

[Narpas_sword]

Im betting he missed the 'OU' part.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

*facepalm*

Do I even need to say anything here? I was referring the fact that Lucas can't hit people with his up smash on the top platform of YS. I must say, I have seen somebody so ignorant with no idea what they're talking about. Try not to be that somebody.

XD quoting this so people can still see it once you quietly delete everything out of shame

 

[kaizo13]

*shakes head*

sigh

 

[Kati]

Mario's fireballs are pretty easy to beat but they were a problem for a few months when 3.0(2) came out. But I thought everyone by now figured out how to deal with them? (Just look around in the forums) They are pretty easy to punish especially with characters with a sex kick as they will eat the fireball and hit Mario. Yes the damage the pills give is a little absurd and the rate he can fire then is a little annoying but at least they don't auto cancel upon landing lol that would be a nightmare. I personally HATE fighting against Mario but I have learned to deal with him from tips on the forums. Maybe it's also because 90% of the WC players on net play are Marios(scrubs) and abuse the pills and cry when they get punished.

Lucas has the tools to easily deal with them. I saw and learned that a long time ago. As a Samus main, my zair annihilates them too.

Still not good design.

Charizard? Ganon? Even if they can get through, the camping that can be achieved is too real.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I hate Lucario's design in this game.

 

[Eisen]

Sorry to say, but OU upsmash DOES hit on the top platform of Yoshi's Story, albeit it does 26% istead of 32%. I almost forgot about this, but it's just one more reason to nerf the size of OU upsmash. I mean, his other smashes don't get bigger (except I think fsmash gets VERY slightly larger), so why should upsmash? It also allows Lucas to hit ANYONE on any part of a platform above him if they fall on their back onto said platform, no matter where they tech. Lucas just has to wait. So, again, it really does need to be toned the hell down.

... Now that I'm playing with it, the OU flub hit (which is the part of the hitbox that connects with the opponent on YS's top platform) does a more reasonable amount of damage and knockback. It has less damage and it SEEMS like it doesn't launch nearly as far. If I could mod movesets on my own, I'd love to try a Lucas moveset with that % discretion and the size reduced and spread it around. Unfortunately, I don't even have access to a Windows-based computer to try. Lowering the OU % modifier shouldn't be too hard, in theory, so it's something I could do if I just had the tools.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I think OU should be a one time thing but give all his smashes buffed range.

 

[cmvnb3]

So is this the place where I can b*tch about how lame Marth and Roy's swordplay moveset is? I have new ideas for their B specials, like Dancing Blade- make it also greatly move the characters, like a real dance- this enables fast dodge+attack possibilities and also unique combos and since you've got branching commands you can move forward, back, and maybe both up and down if you can direct in four different tilt directions. There, now they aren't so bland anymore from just one solid tweak.

 

[arcticfox8]

ITT: **** Lucas 2: Revenge of the Nerfs

 

[Subtle One]

B reverse at any point during Marth or Roy side B? Good design or nah?

 

[Mera Mera]

For the rest, it's rather character-specific. Fastfallers can escape with down+away up to higher %s, since they can tech before Lucas can reach them with DACUS. Anyone floatier just jumps out after a certain height. Semi-fastfallers can do both at the appropriate percentages and are quite good at escaping (but may get chaingrabbed in exchange). What needs tweaking, or at least looking in to, I think, is that for a lot of characters, their % range for escaping doesn't come until a bit after KO percent, so it's up to Lucas to just grab at the right time, which isn't all too difficult for him given hit-confirms and occasionally chaingrabs.
I know that a few people, Lucas mains and otherwise, have expressed that they wouldn't mind if the OU hitbox size-increase were reduced, even back down to the level of non-OU. Design-wise, I agree with this. It doesn't quite make sense that OU, which is meant to reward accurate use of smash attacks, should also decrease the accuracy needed from the player to get said increased reward. It would also alleviate dthrow-usmash problem by decreasing the percent window at which grab = death by usmash.

Agreed that you can't combo into it much after kill percents, nor against fast fallers at low/mid percents, but as far as I can tell the window is still there where it can both combo and kill. Plus on floaties it combos at mid percents for massive damage.

I think a size nerf should happen, but it probably doesn't need to be all the way down to normal up smash size.

 

[shairn]

B reverse at any point during Marth or Roy side B? Good design or nah?

Could be cool.
I'd like to see Marth's shield breaking properties applied to dancing blade instead of neutral B, as it stands it's solely used as a kill move anyway.

 

[Eisen]

Behold. I present your saviour. I spent a good portion of the night editing what little I could of Lucas' moveset. It's basic stuff like damage, hitbox/collision size, etc.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pr2k73zg94yxmmc/FitLucas.pac

Edit: Newer version a few posts below. Please download that one, for convenience's sake.

What's in it?

-OU upsmash does 26%, 23% on flub, kbg raised to compensate but I'm not sure if it's enough. It kills Bowser on SV when it connects at 109, proper DI. Same % for wolf, so, that says something. The size has also been reduced! it should be around 30% smaller than it was, but is still bigger than non-OU upsmash.
-OU Fsmash knockback should be toned down. I thought I changed the % but apparently not.
-OU downsmash does 43% max (or should) now instead of 47%, BUT the second hit doesn't connect nearly as easily it seems. First hit does 22%. Not my desired % but I'd rather not the first hit do only 15%, and I can't edit the second one due to personal limitations.
-fsmash toned down slightly
-UpThrow given a 70 degree angle instead of a 95 degree angle. Should let opponents live slightly longer, but still kills earlier than Mewtwo on most opponents (exception I tested is Jigglypuff on Smashville, whom Mewtwo kills a whopping 1% earlier). I couldn't edit this move too much without messing it up, so. Edit: Apparently, this isn't any different from the normal upthrow. It doesn't kill any earlier or later. You can just DI it more. Welp.
-Dair made more SDIable (SDI value changed from .6-.8 to .9 across the board)

I couldn't edit the infinite stalling properties of magnet unfortunately, nor how long rope snake lasts, or the previously mentioned upthrow properties. If anyone could help me or point me in the right direction, I'd love to collaborate. Also, another problem is that OU upsmash kills like, barely earlier than regular upsmash now. Hardly worth it, but it's certainly less janky. I guess for imperfections like that, this is more like a "what if" kinda thing. I hope you guys like it nonetheless. I'll try to update it accordingly.

 

[PlateProp]

Lucas Changes:

Magnet stall less useful
OU U smash size decrease along with kb
OU changed so that it only lasts 2 smashes before recharge

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

I hate Lucario's design in this game.

Care to explain why? *curious*

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

People complain about Squirtle lol.

Leave the poor turtle alone.

The only thing worth complaining about on squritle, is when you don't know how to deal with his side B. So spamable, the armor and it feels seemingly hard to challenge. When you know nothing about how to beat it, it looks like the jankest move.

 

[Eisen]

Updated version.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/7hsq7cibnkfuskk/FitLucasNerf.pac

OU usmash now kills a little bit better than the last mod I made, but still not as strong as PM3.02's. Still does 26% normally, 23% on flub. I adjusted KBG such that it should reward good placement now, but isn't useless per say when hitting with the body hitbox like it did before.

I also gave him a single unit faster of run-stop deceleration. It felt very slippery and vBrawlish to me. Not that it ultimately matters, but if anyone cares to comment on it, feel free.

Plans for stuff to do that I can't do yet:

- Change Magnet so it doesn't allow tons of stalling
- Make it so Grab/dash grab doesn't last as long
- Make Up throw slightly weaker

If anyone can help me out with these, it'll greatly advance the idea I'm trying to put for. Of course, just opinions on what I have presented helps just as much, if not more... especially on the matter of dair's SDIability. I really would like to know if it's more managable or not. Doesn't have to be the easiest move to SDI, nor should it be, but just enough to where skilled opponents can manipulate how they come out of it/etc. I don't want it being too easy, though, which I'm worried about...

Also, I feel like I should make a thread for this specifically. But I won't be able to make changes super often, so I'd rather not dedicate one...

 

[PlateProp]

The only thing worth complaining about on squritle, is when you don't know how to deal with his side B. So spamable, the armor and it feels seemingly hard to challenge. When you know nothing about how to beat it, it looks like the jankest move.

Scrub Slayer ftw

Trust me though, withdraw is one of Squirtle's least janky moves.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Agreed on the edit part. Lucas has a few questionable qualities, but unlike a lot of other supposedly dominant characters he commits to his offensive and defensive options while up close or approaching, and makes sacrifices in safety for his best combo starters (farther away is a different matter, since in more than a few MUs Lucas can be a bit too capable of just avoiding his opponent, but that might be more dependent on other characters/players at the moment).

For the rest, it's rather character-specific. Fastfallers can escape with down+away up to higher %s, since they can tech before Lucas can reach them with DACUS. Anyone floatier just jumps out after a certain height. Semi-fastfallers can do both at the appropriate percentages and are quite good at escaping (but may get chaingrabbed in exchange). What needs tweaking, or at least looking in to, I think, is that for a lot of characters, their % range for escaping doesn't come until a bit after KO percent, so it's up to Lucas to just grab at the right time, which isn't all too difficult for him given hit-confirms and occasionally chaingrabs.
I know that a few people, Lucas mains and otherwise, have expressed that they wouldn't mind if the OU hitbox size-increase were reduced, even back down to the level of non-OU. Design-wise, I agree with this. It doesn't quite make sense that OU, which is meant to reward accurate use of smash attacks, should also decrease the accuracy needed from the player to get said increased reward. It would also alleviate dthrow-usmash problem by decreasing the percent window at which grab = death by usmash.

How does he commit to his offensive options? This is what I want to know. Side-B, dair, magnet and a bunch of his other offensive options are all really good combo starters and are a part of typical Lucas pressure. That's what I dislike mostly. He's designed like a psychic kid spacey, but hes easier to confirm into big damage with.

Things that he normally does just to pressure you all lead into combos. This is somewhat true with Falco too, I wish we had lightshielding to mess with that guy. Actually light shielding in general would be so good for defending against a lot of characters. Falco at most can just get another bair or dair though where as Lucas can easily lead into smash attacks and fair for ridiculousness.

I thought about writing a list of tropes within the PM characters, because many of the more "well-designed" characters ultimately share really good tools that tend to leave the melee port cast lacking to me personally. Not that I don't like them, but if you want to have a discussion on character design you'll see a lot of the same qualities. Powerful vertical KOs(Usually Up-Bs) in the air,(Pit, Zard, Ivy, Tlink, Metaknight, Wario, Bowser, Sonic, Snake) projectiles you can move behind,(Mario, Ness, Lucario, Ivy, Wolf, ZSS, Diddy) and to a lesser extent charging attacks and double recovery characters. They should definitely be acknowledged in any discussion about character design regardless of how much it simplifies them.

 

[PlateProp]

How does he commit to his offensive options? This is what I want to know. Side-B, dair, magnet and a bunch of his other offensive options are all really good combo starters and are a part of typical Lucas pressure. That's what I dislike mostly. He's designed like a psychic kid spacey, but hes easier to confirm into big damage with.

Things that he normally does just to pressure you all lead into combos. This is somewhat true with Falco too, I wish we had lightshielding to mess with that guy. Actually light shielding in general would be so good for defending against a lot of characters. Falco at most can just get another bair or dair though where as Lucas can easily lead into smash attacks and fair for ridiculousness.

I thought about writing a list of tropes within the PM characters, because many of the more "well-designed" characters ultimately share really good tools that tend to leave the melee port cast lacking to me personally. Not that I don't like them, but if you want to have a discussion on character design you'll see a lot of the same qualities. Powerful vertical KOs(Usually Up-Bs) in the air,(Pit, Zard, Ivy, Tlink, Metaknight, Wario, Bowser, Sonic, Snake) projectiles you can move behind,(Mario, Ness, Lucario, Ivy, Wolf, ZSS, Diddy) and to a lesser extent charging attacks and double recovery characters. They should definitely be acknowledged in any discussion about character design regardless of how much it simplifies them.

I think I vaguely recall that someone figured out the coding for light shielding, and it will be in the next release

I'm not entirely sure though

 

[Exodo]

People complain about Squirtle lol.

Leave the poor turtle alone.

squirtle is a pain in the ass.

 

[Renji64]

Some of the best designed characters in P:M to me.

Could use some work.


The PMBR has done a great job.

 

[PlateProp]

squirtle is a pain in the ***.

Do you play against Amish Side B spamming heretic Squirtles?

 

[Exodo]

Do you play against Amish Side B spamming heretic Squirtles?

i have no idea what that is sooo, no.

 

[PlateProp]

i have no idea what that is sooo, no.

People who spam Withdraw (side b) a lot.

 

[Exodo]

People who spam Withdraw (side b) a lot.

yeah, sort of, my friend who mains squirtle is a disgrace who only spams side b and then the godlike up smash of his.

 

[PlateProp]

yeah, sort of, my friend who mains squirtle is a disgrace who only spams side b and then the godlike up smash of his.

Force him into the Squirtle boards here. We'll convert him.

Or you could just grab/dair him out of withdraw and verbally taunt him everytime you do so until he learns to stop.

 

[Exodo]

Force him into the Squirtle boards here. We'll convert him.

Or you could just grab/dair him out of withdraw and verbally taunt him everytime you do so until he learns to stop.

lol i should show him how true squirtle mains play so he can learn something, but what i meant is, i beat the crap out of him just because of the fact he is predictable, but its still annoying as ****!!

 

[Eisen]

How does he commit to his offensive options? This is what I want to know. Side-B, dair, magnet and a bunch of his other offensive options are all really good combo starters and are a part of typical Lucas pressure. That's what I dislike mostly. He's designed like a psychic kid spacey, but hes easier to confirm into big damage with.

Things that he normally does just to pressure you all lead into combos. This is somewhat true with Falco too, I wish we had lightshielding to mess with that guy. Actually light shielding in general would be so good for defending against a lot of characters. Falco at most can just get another bair or dair though where as Lucas can easily lead into smash attacks and fair for ridiculousness.

"fair for ridiculousness", lol. That move isn't even that strong. It's a solid kill move, but on most characters it doesn't kill until a good 150 or so.

I think what they're saying is that when you go in with Lucas, you're REALLY susceptible to good reactions. Aka chaingrabs, hits out of your DJC (which you need for good pressure in the first place). It's not like it's free and there's nothing you can do about it.

I mean yeah, I'm obviously one of the people who thinks he could be toned down, in particular with how much damage he pulls and how easy peasy OU upsmash is to land, but even so, now that it's Lucas' turn to be in the spotlight of PM hate, everyone complains about EVERYTHING he has and not the actually bad stuff.

Again, PK Freeze takes 26 frames or so to come out, maybe not much sooner aerially. Then it has to travel across the stage. If you get hit by it, it's poor spacing/positioning/reaction on your part.

 

[PlateProp]

lol i should show him how true squirtle mains play so he can learn something, but what i meant is, i beat the crap out of him just because of the fact he is predictable, but its still annoying as ****!!

Ahh.
Too bad there's very few videos atm of how we true Squirtle mains play. Tell him to start watching Daftatt

I'm honestly torn between showing people the greatness that is Squirtle, and wanting to remain as a sleeper character.

 

[Blank Mauser]

"fair for ridiculousness", lol. That move isn't even that strong. It's a solid kill move, but on most characters it doesn't kill until a good 150 or so.

I think what they're saying is that when you go in with Lucas, you're REALLY susceptible to good reactions. Aka chaingrabs, hits out of your DJC (which you need for good pressure in the first place). It's not like it's free and there's nothing you can do about it.

I mean yeah, I'm obviously one of the people who thinks he could be toned down, in particular with how much damage he pulls and how easy peasy OU upsmash is to land, but even so, now that it's Lucas' turn to be in the spotlight of PM hate, everyone complains about EVERYTHING he has and not the actually bad stuff.

Again, PK Freeze takes 26 frames or so to come out, maybe not much sooner aerially. Then it has to travel across the stage. If you get hit by it, it's poor spacing/positioning/reaction on your part.

Fair doesn't have to kill since it sets up for edge guards. Pretty much all his aerials are good and you never need to use DJC in a spot you aren't going to be safe anyways. Likewise PK freeze doesn't have to hit, its like a disjointed poke more than anything. It gives Lucas space to work with. Nevermind that you can djc it to make it come out lower and safer than Falco's lasers have ever been.

The reason people complain about EVERYTHING he has is because thats the problem imo. It doesn't have to be the "bad stuff" just the fact that he has so much stuff. Does he really need to kill with Uthrow when he already has Usmash? Does his grab have to have so many active frames? Does he need magnet stall to kill off the side on top of helping his tether recovery?

Lucas could stand to lose so much about his character and straight up still be amazing. Where as other characters rely so much on specific attacks they'd play completely differently without them, Lucas has many different strengths to play on.

Hell I don't even think hes even the best character. I'm just saying hes easy to play. I actually think hes real similar to Falco and just needs kill options toned down. His average combo is like 45-60%, which is good for a fast faller. Falco has to hit with 3 dairs for that kind of damage on top of dying off-stage easily. Hes a 2-3 mistake character at his best.

 

[Eisen]

Fair doesn't have to kill since it sets up for edge guards. Pretty much all his aerials are good and you never need to use DJC in a spot you aren't going to be safe anyways. Likewise PK freeze doesn't have to hit, its like a disjointed poke more than anything. It gives Lucas space to work with. Nevermind that you can djc it to make it come out lower and safer than Falco's lasers have ever been.

The reason people complain about EVERYTHING he has is because thats the problem imo. It doesn't have to be the "bad stuff" just the fact that he has so much stuff. Does he really need to kill with Uthrow when he already has Usmash? Does his grab have to have so many active frames? Does he need magnet stall to kill off the side on top of helping his tether recovery?

Lucas could stand to lose so much about his character and straight up still be amazing. Where as other characters rely so much on specific attacks they'd play completely differently without them, Lucas has many different strengths to play on.

Hell I don't even think hes even the best character. I'm just saying hes easy to play. I actually think hes real similar to Falco and just needs kill options toned down. His average combo is like 45-60%, which is good for a fast faller. Falco has to hit with 3 dairs for that kind of damage on top of dying off-stage easily. Hes a 2-3 mistake character at his best.

You seriously way overestimate his abilities. His aerials are no more good and useful than Fox or Falco's, Ike's, Pit's, Luigi's, Mario's, Falcon's... I could go on.

Pretty much what I bolded is what I agree one. Those things are unnecessary to be as good as they are. But consider also what good options other characters have too. He has to have something that kills decently or he'll just be a combo machine with zero finishers and an average recovery. The active frames on his grab are really only bad on his dash grab, and even that offense is so minor, it's hardly worth calling him OP for. In general they don't last that long and are risky to even pull out because of how much cooldown they have. If anything, Lucas has to chase you down intelligently against good players for a solid grab.

In my opinion, his recovery is perfect aside from his limitless use of magnet stall. If you gave it a one-time stall like Mario's cape, it'd be fine. That way, he has probably one good chance to get back on his own while not having a half-Samus recovery. Again, you really overestimate him in this department, though. But even so, it's not that hard to stop him if you know where to intercept his his stall, and his tether is really vulnerable. Sure, he'll probably have a chance to punish you if you go too ham offstage, but it's nowhere near easy-peasy.

lol at "his average combo is 45%-60%. Yeah, he has some of those, but a lot of it revolves around OU usmash being too damn good and huge and doing half that damage in a single move, which is why I want it toned down in the first place. If we're gonna compare Falco, maybe I should talk about how you can hit with his dair pretty much anywhere for a good period of time and get a spike kill at 45%, or how his lasers are relatively easy to manipulate your opponent around once you get a feel for them. Plus, they come out way faster than Lucas can ever dream of pulling out PK Freeze, and multiples, AND they go much further. I mean, any character's really good...... if the player is good. Which, I thought was the point. But, imo, some of them reward too much, some too little.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You seriously way overestimate his abilities. His aerials are no more good and useful than Fox or Falco's, Ike's, Pit's, Luigi's, Mario's, Falcon's... I could go on.

Pretty much what I bolded is what I agree one. Those things are unnecessary to be as good as they are. But consider also what good options other characters have too. He has to have something that kills decently or he'll just be a combo machine with zero finishers and an average recovery. The active frames on his grab are really only bad on his dash grab, and even that offense is so minor, it's hardly worth calling him OP for. In general they don't last that long and are risky to even pull out because of how much cooldown they have. If anything, Lucas has to chase you down intelligently against good players for a solid grab.

In my opinion, his recovery is perfect aside from his limitless use of magnet stall. If you gave it a one-time stall like Mario's cape, it'd be fine. That way, he has probably one good chance to get back on his own while not having a half-Samus recovery. Again, you really overestimate him in this department, though. But even so, it's not that hard to stop him if you know where to intercept his his stall, and his tether is really vulnerable. Sure, he'll probably have a chance to punish you if you go too ham offstage, but it's nowhere near easy-peasy.

lol at "his average combo is 45%-60%. Yeah, he has some of those, but a lot of it revolves around OU usmash being too damn good and huge and doing half that damage in a single move, which is why I want it toned down in the first place. If we're gonna compare Falco, maybe I should talk about how you can hit with his dair pretty much anywhere for a good period of time and get a spike kill at 45%, or how his lasers are relatively easy to manipulate your opponent around once you get a feel for them. Plus, they come out way faster than Lucas can ever dream of pulling out PK Freeze, and multiples, AND they go much further. I mean, any character's really good...... if the player is good. Which, I thought was the point. But, imo, some of them reward too much, some too little.

I'm not saying take away Lucas' kill power, just tone it down. I think plenty of other characters would love to have his deathgrab's power.

For his recovery his magnet is disjointed so with good timing you could be trying to edge guard him only to go flying off. Yes he is perfectly edgeguardable. I just don't think he needs to kill people when hes really just trying to stall.

If you do Falco's lasers early, they can be dash attacked or crouched under. If you do them late, he has more time vulnerable on the way up. Lucas negates both of these weaknesses by having full control with djc on when and how low he does his projectile. It doesn't need to go as far as Falco's laser either. If you watch PPMD's Falco he almost ever only uses Falco's laser from a certain distance. Its a mid-range distance where he can easily space ftilt, nair etc. in such a fashion that limits your space and options. Because laser is disjointed this makes it perfect for this mid-range. Same applies for Lucas, its just the perfect range and he can retreat and move forward with it, plus it has more hitstun from what I've gathered. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Lucas has bair and dair for off-stage so I'm of the opinion hes just straight up better than Falco tbh. Feel free to disagree, but I just think the character has crazy potential. Heck I've had characters spiked in PM by Falco before only for most of them to make it back anyways. Fox doesn't count since you can just double down on him.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

How does he commit to his offensive options? This is what I want to know. Side-B, dair, magnet and a bunch of his other offensive options are all really good combo starters and are a part of typical Lucas pressure. That's what I dislike mostly. He's designed like a psychic kid spacey, but hes easier to confirm into big damage with.

Things that he normally does just to pressure you all lead into combos. This is somewhat true with Falco too, I wish we had lightshielding to mess with that guy. Actually light shielding in general would be so good for defending against a lot of characters. Falco at most can just get another bair or dair though where as Lucas can easily lead into smash attacks and fair for ridiculousness.

PK Freeze is definitely a commitment when just about any character can call you out on it and approach for free by shffling through the projectile.
Magnet is a commitment because it lacks range and safety. It's really only a standard pressure tool against someone who shields without knowing what they're doing. Lucas almost always has to use his safer pressure options (DJC fair, for example) to force a shield in the first place, and even when that happens, WD back eliminates the threat of safe magnet pressure. And no, PK Freeze does not force shielding like Falco's lasers do simply because it can be swatted with something as simple as SH retreating fair.
Dair isn't safe on shield, and lacks any sort of protective coverage whatsoever. It doesn't have extremely good mixup synergy with magnet, in spite of this, though, since neither is particular dangerous for the defender to trade with.

While in range of his opponent, just about everything Lucas does to start a big combo runs a high risk of being cleanly hit out of or easily blocked, in contrast to spacies. So, while up close, I would say that is how Lucas commits to his offensive options. Part of the actual problem is that when Lucas knows his opponent needs to try to hit him, and he's too fast to pin down, then he can stay back and punish small openings. Again, it's not ubiquitous across the cast, though, and might simply be solved by players and/or characters not being forced to approach as much in the future meta.