Character Design in PM

[NisforSmash]

A few questions.

What makes a well designed character in pm? Which characters are well designed and which ones aren't? What change needs to be made to all characters across the board?

I'll say that i think a well designed character has a move set that complements their persona and has a very natural fit on them. Based on the feel of the character as they move around the stage, the moves they have should flow naturally and complement their size, weight, proportions etc.

I think Ike, Lucas, Wolf, Diddy Kong, ZSS, Samus and Pit are well designed. Olimar, Ganon, jigglypuff and wario to some extent i feel could use some work.

Overall i think crouch cancelling needs to be limited severely, and as was done in smash 4, shield breaking should be easier done for characters such as bowser, ganon, Dk and D3. Also shield decline should be a tad bit slower for the four. As was brought up somewhere on smashboards or the smash subreddit, i also think increasing the number of frames (1 or 2) allowed for a perfect shield to reflect a projectile would negate alot of spamming and require players to be smart about projectile placement.

I don't think recoveries need to be nerfed though. One thing that's more common in pm than in melee i find is offstage bouts in midair and i like that. Both characters usually have the option to either recover or try and gimp the other character and often times it can get pretty hectic from what i've experienced. Being offstage in and of itself is a disadvantage so i don't think limiting a character's ability while airborne will help the project m experience.

 

[Sour Supreme]

I can agree with what you said, adding that Snake feels well developed.

 

[shairn]

Lucas, a character who can kill you off the top very early in three different ways, has incredible recovery, a meteor and a spike, a good projectile, and whose moves all link into one another? I think Lucas could use some more work.

This should probably take place in the tier list thread though.

 

[PlateProp]

Squirtle overall has good design, he really just needs to be tweaked at this point. Withdraw mainly, to make it less spammable for Amish Squirtles, but I would like to see a change for Water Gun

 

[Zimflare]

Lucas, a character who can kill you off the top very early in three different ways, has incredible recovery, a meteor and a spike, a good projectile, and whose moves all link into one another? I think Lucas could use some more work.

This should probably take place in the tier list thread though.

That has nothing to do with a character's overall design. Considering most other characters in this game have good combos, Lucas isn't a problem here. Lucas is very fluid with his moves and is designed very well and has been constantly tweaked for the better throughout the versions of PM. It sounds like you are just salty about losing to Lucas and judging by your posts, you are. And what is this third way of killing "early" off the top you speak of? U smash, U throw, ?

 

[shairn]

That has nothing to do with a character's overall design. Considering most other characters in this game have good combos, Lucas isn't a problem here. Lucas is very fluid with his moves and is designed very well and has been constantly tweaked for the better throughout the versions of PM. It sounds like you are just salty about losing to Lucas and judging by your posts, you are. And what is this third way of killing "early" off the top you speak of? U smash, U throw, ?

Lucas can either uthrow, dthrow -> usmash or dair -> usmash. Maybe I should call them kill setups instead? Mind you pk freeze hit confirms into a guaranteed grab, so he doesn't have to commit to it. It's not even about having simply good combos, Lucas' combo ability is excellent on top of killing very early and being difficult to kill.

 

[Y-L]

A character like Ike is well designed. He is powerful, mobile, and can kill early, yet he has weaknesses too such as limited OoS options and a hard time dealing with projectiles. A well designed character has good strengths, as well as prominent weaknesses, which I believe a lot of characters lack (mario/lucas imo) however this probably belongs in tier list discussion.

 

[Zimflare]

I agree, let's not make this a teir list argument/mini tier list speculation thread. That being said, PKF does not lead into a guaranteed grab unless it is used and if it HITS at a VERY unsafe distance. Otherwise you can just crouch cancel it or if you are floaty/semi floaty, you can jump out of it. Lucas's tether/tethers in general are very easy to beat. Oh ya, and d throw to u smash doesn't work with good DI.

 

[Soft Serve]

I think Wolf, Roy, and Wario are the best designed characters in PM. they have clear strengths on stage and weaknesses in recovery, and are all pretty much unique. Wolf in particular is still a spacie, but honestly designed a lot better from a gameplay standpoint. More holes in shield pressure, everything he has is a DI trap and he has to follow up accordingly, incredible amounts of mix-up mobility through drift speed etc.

Wolf, Roy, and to a lesser extent Wario could probably be thrown straight into Melee and it would all fit perfectly.

 

[shairn]

I agree, let's not make this a teir list argument/mini tier list speculation thread. That being said, PKF does not lead into a guaranteed grab unless it is used and if it HITS at a VERY unsafe distance.

Obviously you can't get anything out of a move that you neither use or don't hit with. And no, Lucas' grab range combined with the speed at which PKF can be used and his aerial mobility mean that he can safely stay away until you either approach or he hits you with one. If the latter, you get grabbed.

Otherwise you can just crouch cancel it or if you are floaty/semi floaty, you can jump out of it. Lucas's tether/tethers in general are very easy to beat. Oh ya, and d throw to u smash doesn't work with good DI.

I don't know about floaties to be honest. But Lucas' tether being "very easy" to beat? Please. That is a joke. dthrow usmash works on all DI so long as you react accordingly. With the best DI, all you have to do is DACUS.

 

[Phaiyte]

Lucas, a character who can kill you off the top very early in three different ways, has incredible recovery, a meteor and a spike, a good projectile, and whose moves all link into one another? I think Lucas could use some more work.

This should probably take place in the tier list thread though.

With a complete **** recovery. Sounds like Fox/Falco, right?

Also, Bowser completely WRECKS Lucas.

edit: and Marth

 

[PsionicSabreur]

The best designed character is obviously my main(s). The worst designed character(s) is/are their worst matchup(s).

dthrow usmash works on all DI so long as you react accordingly. With the best DI, all you have to do is DACUS.

Yeah, if you get grabbed within a modestly narrow % range (which could admittedly could stand to be tweaked outside of usmash KO percent). Otherwise if you're sent high enough you can just do a "no DI mixup" and... jump out before Lucas can dash to the side and usmash, on reaction. (or airdodge, if you're Peach)

 

[GrosMinou]

IMO, Ivysaur, Lucas, Wolf, Link, Samus, Roy, Wario and Zelda are all very well DESIGNED caracthers. They could all use some tuning, but the Idea behind how they are transformed from their original games to Project M is very well done.

 

[DMG]

I think characters with good design tend to not have extreme aspects, and come equipped with meaningful nuances that separate "good" players from "great" players.

 

[Zimflare]

Obviously you can't get anything out of a move that you neither use or don't hit with. And no, Lucas' grab range combined with the speed at which PKF can be used and his aerial mobility mean that he can safely stay away until you either approach or he hits you with one. If the latter, you get grabbed.

I don't know about floaties to be honest. But Lucas' tether being "very easy" to beat? Please. That is a joke. dthrow usmash works on all DI so long as you react accordingly. With the best DI, all you have to do is DACUS.

By use and hit I mean that it is something Lucas shouldn't be doing. That is the only case where is it gaurenteed. And back to the tethers, they are easy to beat. If you have trouble you have to work on your edgaurding instead of saying "please. That is a joke." or you will never be a successful PM player. But anyways, this is not a tier list speculation thread so back to the topic; I agree Lucas is a very well designed character. That is all.

 

[kaizo13]

@ Zimflare
how does having multiple strengths with little to no weaknesses make a "very well designed character"

you're either delusional or just trying to avoid having your main nerfed. We should strive for balance even if it means that you're going to have to put in a little bit more effort to take a stock.

you gotta stay humble man. i've suggested multiple nerfs for my mains and they aren't even considered high tier. At the end of the day, the best feeling is knowing you outplayed your opponent rather than having your character do most of the work for you.

 

[TreK]

Best ideas (not necessarily best execution) : Bowser, DK, Luigi, Marth, Ice Climbers
Best executions (not necessarily best ideas) : Lucario, Pikachu, Ivysaur, Peach, Charizard
Best all around design (imo) : Wario, Snake

Worst ideas (not necessarily bad execution) : Jigglypuff, Sonic
Worst executions (not necessarily bad ideas) : Fox, Marth, Mewtwo

imo.

"ideas are the multipliers of execution" -Derek Sivers

 

[Zimflare]

*sigh....* I was hoping I wouldn't have to link this thread but maybe you should take a look at this. I agree with it 100% and as you can see us Lucas mains are completely open to nerfs (if any are completely necessary). Even the non Lucas players who came there were surprised about how much we don't care is he gets nerfed. This is because Lucas is a VERY technical player and requires much more tech skill than most of the characters in the cast, so if he gets nerfed that will be fine as we are already comfortable with our skill with the character. Saying Lucas does "most of the work" is completely wrong as Lucas is very hard to play at a higher level and already takes more work and effort than average to take a win. Don't be one of those players who think you can put yourselves above others by insisting that your "lower tier" character needs a nerf. Lower tier characters in this game aren't even that bad or farther behind than the higher tiers. Maybe before you start telling people they need to stay humble you should take a look at yourself first. Thank you that is all. (Well at least until you, or another salty player insists on claiming that Lucas has a bad design)

 

[Eisen]

I've made several posts over in the Lucas board (and even a thread) on Lucas.

Basically, the thing about Lucas is that several things need tweaking, but he's not as stupid as everyone thinks. Yeah, he doesn't need a kill throw as good as the one he has and OU upsmash and dair (which is just a broken move because of SDI) are dumb, and his recovery is really good for how good his offense is, along with minor problems like his grab lasting too long, but complaining about PK freeze hit-confirming into grab is straight up johns. The move takes FOREVER (I believe in the realm of 26 frames) to come out (let alone traverse the stage), and if you can't react properly to it, get better. It does 5% instead of 8% like a certain character's projectiles too.

As for the topic itself, I'm going to agree with most of the people here. A well-designed character should have unique ways of getting things done while still having clear weaknesses.

For that reason, I'll say that I think the best character designs in terms of a gameplay standpoint right now are Wolf, Ike, Roy, Samus, Wario, Sheik, Charizard, DK, ZSS, Luigi, Toon Link, Metaknight Sonic, Snake, ROB Peach, Marth, Captain Falcon, Lucario, Yoshi. Falco is just a hair from being on this list, and only because I think dair just needs a damn flub hit.

Who feels good but just needs tweaks? Lucas, Ness, Fox, Falco, Mario, Zelda, Link, Squirte, Ivysaur, Pikachu, Mewtwo, Kirby, Pit, Diddy, Dedede maybe?

Who needs more work? Bowser, Ganondorf, Jigglypuff

I don't know land: Olimar, ICs, GaW.


The best designs in terms of being in character? Sonic, Samus, Mario, Luigi, Peach, DK, Diddy, Wolf, Fox, Falco, Sheik, Link, Toon Link, Mewtwo, Pikachu, Lucas, Ness, Metaknight, ROB, Snake.

Some of them I can't say for because I haven't played their games, lol.

 

[Zimflare]

@ Eisen totally linked your thread (probably at the same time you did) haha but you have to agree that badge knows his stuff and has said himself that Lucas is a well designed character that still has a few quirks here and there and only minor fixes. And the other things in there mentioning uthrow being nerfed would just mean another combo throw, by the time for a uthrow kill you could have already killed with something else ect. Are all reasonable answers for showing that certain nerfs would lead to other problems.

 

[kaizo13]

This is because Lucas is a VERY technical character and requires much more tech skill than most of the characters in the cast

i have to disagree here. Just because a character can be played technical, doesn't mean it requires him to play technical to win.

d-throw> u-smash
d-air> u-smash
d-throw> b-air
up-throw> KO
side-b> u-smash
side-b> insert anything here

none of that seems very technical. Infact he can just SH aerials without any use of DJC and still do great. you don't have to be all that technical because he has such a great moveset, like i said before, his strengths and weaknesses are not balanced.

and it's not just Lucas....Mario, Diddy, Pit and a few others also have movesets that overshadow their weak points

 

[Zimflare]

i have to disagree here. Just because a character can be played technical, doesn't mean it requires him to play technical to win.

d-throw> u-smash
d-air> u-smash
d-throw> b-air
up-throw> KO
side-b> u-smash
side-b> insert anything here

That's why in the next sentence I mentioned higher level of play, which is what this game is designed to be about. Also, you listing some of his very un-guaranteed follow ups and saying he is not technical is pretty much like saying it all comes free, which is completely untrue especially at higher levels of play. Lol you might as well say for Gannon: stand-> warlock punch-> win. It's not like every other character in the game has a follow up lol. You may need a glass of water for all of the sodium you have obviously ingested.

PS you should probably take a look at the thread I linked (because it's obvious you didn't) so you can comprehend what I mean.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

I think Roy, Wolf, Wario and DK are well designed, to name a few. They have clear strengths and weaknesses and I think their recoveries aren't too stronk. Roy in particular can recover from surprising distances and his Blazer is hard to intercept. However it's ultimately balanced by his tendency to die easily thanks to his weight and fallspeed combination and the fact that "recovering high" is near-impossible for him. Aiming for the ledge is pretty much the only way to go. This contrasts with Mewtwo whose recovery is stupid GOOD and his now buffed weight means he'll never hit the blastzone (unlike in Melee where he'd die so early that his recovery wasn't a cause for outrage amongst the community).

All the PMBR needs to do IMO is tone down the reward from throws. I'm not saying that everyone should be like Roy and get sweet nothing out of throws if their opponent is above 10% damage, just make throw setups less potent, especially at higher percentages. (I personally find it hilarious how in the VGBC Smash 4 Luigi Moveset video, they noticed how his Dthrow barely sends the opponent up at all, even past 100% and refer to it as being "like Project M".) I don't have a problem with a character's playstyle heaving an emphasis on tech-chasing and read-based combos, in fact I think that's cool and brings variety to the roster. So Charizard and Kirby are A-OK in my books. It's just characters like Pit and Mario that are stupid with their Dthrows.

Ivysaur is a big offender IMO. Too much versatility. Good disjointed attacks like Bair, solid projectiles that setup combos incredibly well, powerful finishers, simple and efficient combo game in general, recovery isn't **** like in Brawl thanks to the change in tether mechanics, etc etc. One thing Armada said is that to balance characters, the PMBR should improve a character's strengths, not remove their weaknesses. I feel that Roy fits into the former category and Ivysaur into the latter. A character should be good at their style of play, not be capable of performing everything imaginable on the basis of "balance". Finally Ivysaur's healing is stupid because it forces you to approach her and she's a character who has an amazing keepaway game. Not cool man.

/rant

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I dunno... but I feel like john'ing about recoveries (and stage kill boxes). Not from the standpoint of a player but as a viewer. It makes the game feel less high stakes and intense than melee. Watching melee is crazy because a mistake can be leveraged into a terrible situation by a good opponent and very often a lost stock. In Project M, recoveries are so ****ing good with so many options that the game sometimes starts to remind me of brawl - trading hits until kill percentages, then a finisher. Unlike Brawl, there's exciting combos at least. But unless they lead to a kill they're often just damage racking and the positional advantage gained doesn't seem to be worth as much. The kill boxes on stages are massive and so many characters have the tools to easily come back from pretty much wherever, except for far out and underneath the stage. Sonic, Mario, and Lucas are the characters I notice this with the most while watching streams.

This is a pretty uninformed opinion based on casual viewership of events from both games (melee and PM) but it's mostly these recoveries with so many options - wall jumps, stalls, tethers - that make recovering seem like it isn't as much of a disadvantage as it should be. Lucas in particular should be a really fun character to watch IMO with his combo potential and stuff but I just sigh every time I see a Lucas vs. X match.

 

[Phaiyte]

@ Zimflare
how does having multiple strengths with little to no weaknesses make a "very well designed character"

you're either delusional or just trying to avoid having your main nerfed. We should strive for balance even if it means that you're going to have to put in a little bit more effort to take a stock.

you gotta stay humble man. i've suggested multiple nerfs for my mains and they aren't even considered high tier. At the end of the day, the best feeling is knowing you outplayed your opponent rather than having your character do most of the work for you.

Lucas' recovery options are complete trash compared to the rest of the cast. That is an absolute glaring weakness he has on top of being incredibly easy to combo because of his fallspeed. Lucas is designed to be like Fox/Falco/Wolf. Amazing on stage, combo oriented gameplay, jump cancelable shield pressure, etc at the cost of having one of the worst recoveries in the game (not in distance or height, just that it's incredibly easy to block him). Tethers are not a huge problem like you claim them to be, otherwise people would have been ******** so hard about Samus in Melee, but no one ever did. In fact, tethering is WORSE in PM than it was in Melee, so like, wtf ever yaknow lol

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well designed characters - peach, falcon, wolf, sheik, zamus, marth, falco, roy, and rob

(The characters listed here have no flaws in their design, or if they do, it's a very small one. There isn't an order to those listed.)​

Fairly good - wario, luigi, diddy, fox, link, tink, ganon, pika, jiggly, charizard, samus, pit, mk, d3, ike, and snake.

(The characters listed have at least one trait that isn't necessary in their design. The amount that a character has that's unnecessary varies, and they're not listed in any particular order. While these characters still have flaws in their design, if development of this game stopped, they wouldn't be detrimental to the design of the game.)
​

Not enough information to make an accurate opinion on - squirtle, and ice climbers

(Self explanatory.)
​

Poorly designed characters (or what I call, "jank") - the rest of the cast

(The rest of the cast suffers from what's usually numerous, but sometimes can only be one, trait that severely calls their balance, and their overall design, into question. Some characters range, for the answer to fixing their design to being fairly simple, to having no clear cut answer to fixing it's design. I can elaborate on individual characters in this list, if need be.)
​

Let it be known that when I give my opinion on this matter, I'm not trying to insult any pmbr member that have worked on any of the designs I see as unsatisfactory. I actually hold a decent amount of respect to a good bit of the pmbr members, and I understand that this a fairly difficult endeavor. Please take this as, bare bones, constructive criticism.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Tethers are not a huge problem like you claim them to be, otherwise people would have been *****ing so hard about Samus in Melee, but no one ever did. In fact, tethering is WORSE in PM than it was in Melee, so like, wtf ever yaknow lol

They're only a problem when attached to characters with ridiculous onstage games. Lucas, in particular, has a very underrated recovery due to the fact that his tether is instant on the pull-in, making edgeguarding him way more difficult than it should be. This, combined with his magnet stall, projectile, and having a decent up-b recovery (as well as easy-spike aerials), makes his offstage game really dumb. It's far from the best in the game, but it shouldn't be nearly as safe as it is.

Also, Bowser completely WRECKS Lucas.

I recommend professional help.

 

[Phaiyte]

They're only a problem when attached to characters with ridiculous onstage games. Lucas, in particular, has a very underrated recovery due to the fact that his tether is instant on the pull-in, making edgeguarding him way more difficult than it should be. This, combined with his magnet stall, projectile, and having a decent up-b recovery (as well as easy-spike aerials), makes his offstage game really dumb. It's far from the best in the game, but it shouldn't be nearly as safe as it is.


I recommend professional help.

If you're on the ledge and he pulls in, he's completely vulnerable. My Bowser in particular with ledgehop Fair him every time. If he decides to do something else, he gets bopped by an invincible ledge attack on reaction every time, and he's forced to upB afterwards. During this time you have about 5 heavy armored options to use against him, and you will not flinch if you trade with his upB.

Onstage, you can literally CC and power through everything he does with armor. He's basically invincible to PKF, every single approach Lucas has, just like, whatever dude. Bowser is great. Anyone who says otherwise is a ****ing pleb lol

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Poorly designed characters (or what I call, "jank") - the rest of the cast)

For easy reference that's.​

I'm not disagreeing by any means but why do you have G&W, Kirby, Olimar and Ness down there?

 

[Eisen]

lol at calling PKT2 a "decent" up-b recovery.

If someone finds that hard to block, they're pretty much going to find any recovery hard to block/counter. It's slow as hell in every aspect. Lucas has to AIM it first of all, which takes time and can be thwarted easily be projectiles, Randall, etc. Then, the actual movement of it is pretty slow, and it's not like it has that good of priority. Just saying. Lastly, the drop speed and landing lag is atrocious.

Lucas' recovery is good though, mostly because magnet stall is way too good. I forgot to mention in my previous post that he needs magnet to only stall him efficiently once. Having infinite magnet stalls gives him so much horizontal momentum. If you took away just that spamability, I guarantee he'd be way easier to manage since he'd less often be in the range of his tether. As is, I almost NEVER have to use my up-b compared to my tether as Lucas. Kinda sad really.

Also, dair is a meteor and not a spike, and if you get hit with bair (let alone the spike hitbox) while trying to edgeguard/hog Lucas, good job; you've worked a miracle.

All you need is to use a move onstage that properly hits lucas while he's on/reeling in the tether. He's helpless at that point. Sure, it's easier for him to execute the tether compared to other recoveries, but I think people are also just bad at intercepting tethers (myself included). If magnet stall for days didn't allow him to mix up his recovery so damn well, he'd be much more managable.

The amount of Lucas salt in this thread is too much. 1 page in and every other post is about Lucas being too easy or too good. Is this the new fad that's going around? I mean I've said since day one I picked Lucas up that he's really REALLY good, but easy? Please. He's the hardest character in the game to learn, or at least one of the hardest (janky characters like ROB or Jigglypuff might be harder; it's kinda relative when not talking about tech skill/applications). It's not that hard to counter him, either. He's really susceptible to juggle combos and gimps when you know what you're doing.

Also realize that part of Lucas' offense requires (or at least encourages) the use of DJC. If Lucas is hit out of it, he's pretty screwed. How "good" his recovery is isn't just about his offstage distance/mobility. Imagine if Fox's pressure relied on him eating his double jump. There'd be no point in doing it, right? That's how I see it, at least.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Lucas' recovery options are complete trash compared to the rest of the cast.

You're clearly under the influence. Lucas's recovery, could have saved the dinosaurs.

 

[Phaiyte]

Words

scrub detected

 

[Mr.Pickle]

@ Circle_Breaker - Sorrry duder, its taking longer than I thought to articulate my point, and I have to go to bed and get ready for work in about 5 hours, so I'll have a response to your question some time tomorrow.

 

[Phaiyte]

Characters with basically perfect or 'close enough to it' design:
Pit, Mario, Marth, Roy, Mewtwo, Yoshi, MK, Fox, Falco, Wolf, Lucas, Bowser, Ganon, Snake, Link, Samus, Charizard, DK, Diddy, Peach, Falcon, Sheik, ZSS, MK, ROB, Wario, Lucario, Ivysaur, Sonic, Zelda, Jigglypuff, Pikachu.

Don't know enough or don't care:
Tink, Gdubs, Olimar, Squirtle, Ice Climbers


everyone else????? edit later

 

[Zimflare]

I just sigh every time I see a Lucas vs. X match.

Umm... Maybe once a week at Xanadu. A LOCAL tourney (where the same players tend to come back every week, because, you know... It's a LOCAL). Other than that you almost never see him in any major tournaments.

 

[yohoos]

Perfect Characters: Wario, Charizard, DK, Ike, Marth, Roy, Lucario, Luigi, Metaknight, Peach, Pikachu, R.O.B, Sheik, Samus, Wolf, Yoshi, ZSS, GaW - These characters I wouldn't mind if they just stayed the same forever.

Characters that feel slightly underwhelming: TLink, Ganondorf, Falcon, Olimar - These guys should get small buffs/fixes.

Characters w/ one or two poorly designed moves: Squirtle, Sonic, Snake, Ivy, Fox, Falco, Kirby, Ness, - Squirtle needs less armor, Sonic needs less spin, Snake needs less chain throws, Ivy needs less UpB knockback, Fox needs less kill potential, Falco needs to reload his gun, Kirby needs less dash and suction, Ness needs less PkFire.

Characters that seem incomplete or have bad design: Bowser, Diddy, Jiggly, Link, Lucas, Mario, Mewtwo, Pit, Zelda - Bowser is too polarizing, Diddy needs more weaknesses and less bananas, Jiggly needs straight up buffs, Link needs more weaknesses and maybe less boomerang idk, Lucas needs more weaknesses and grab needs to be fixed, Mario needs more weaknesses and fireballs need to go, Mewtwo is just stupid, Pit needs to be less like melee Sheik, Zelda is just dumb.

IDK tier: IC

I use to agree that Fox and friends should not get nerfed and everyone else should get buffed to their level as the standard for character design. But I've noticed recently that as a result of this buffing trend, we have been getting more spammable projectiles, chain throws, grab-kill combos, ridiculously high knock-back and safe moves, and overly safe recoveries. Unless the other characters can start competing with spacies without these degenerate, boring, and annoying to play against "good-stuff" moves, I'd rather have them just nerf Fox/Falco a bit and stop giving out annoying buffs.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Umm... Maybe once a week at Xanadu. A LOCAL tourney (where the same players tend to come back every week, because, you know... It's a LOCAL). Other than that you almost never see him in any major tournaments.

... that doesn't change the fact that I don't like watching them

 

[Kati]

Yeah I think character design is a distinct topic from tiers, so I like this thread.

Briefly mentioning recoveries though... my fellow smashers who play Peach or Ganon simply don't gain as much from stage control now. When people can sweet spot effortlessly or fly here and there, who cares if your opponent has carefully cornered you?

As a long time Samus main, I enjoy Samus' new tools on stage, but I am finding myself playing her less and less as I just don't want to spend so much time recovering for free over and over again.

I really don't enjoy playing against Mario, Lucario, or Diddy Kong. Despite how campy they can be, I do enjoy playing against Zelda and to a lesser extent Ivy.

Mario's fireballs...

Lucario is just too weird for me I suppose. Maybe I'm too old for new interesting ideas. I geuss I also just don't like the pokemon to begin with, but I find myself drifting over to melee set ups when stuck with Lucario players (I sold my copy of melee as I didn't think I would ever want to play it again). And I'm not losing the majority of my matches.

DK, Bowser, Luigi, C. Falcon, Squirtle, Link, Zelda, G&W, Meta Knight, Ike, and Roy, all give me a lot of confidence in this game.

Hopefully with the next patch, those that I have mentioned like Samus and Mario along with Rob, m2, Puff, Ganon, and Yoshi will inspire me to the same extent.

 

[Zimflare]

Mario's fireballs are pretty easy to beat but they were a problem for a few months when 3.0(2) came out. But I thought everyone by now figured out how to deal with them? (Just look around in the forums) They are pretty easy to punish especially with characters with a sex kick as they will eat the fireball and hit Mario. Yes the damage the pills give is a little absurd and the rate he can fire then is a little annoying but at least they don't auto cancel upon landing lol that would be a nightmare. I personally HATE fighting against Mario but I have learned to deal with him from tips on the forums. Maybe it's also because 90% of the WC players on net play are Marios(scrubs) and abuse the pills and cry when they get punished.

 

[~Dad~]

People complain about Squirtle lol.

Leave the poor turtle alone.