Character Design in PM

[shapular]

I think the well-designed characters are the ones who rely more on fundamentals than gimmicks. For example, Mario, Marth, ROB, or Charizard. Most of the characters who are basically ported from Melee/Brawl are this way. Poorly-designed characters rely a lot on a few specific unbalanced moves or other gimmicks to win and don't necessarily need good fundamentals. Mewtwo is a good example of this, and doesn't really need any explanation. Ivysaur is somewhat this way since he has some free setups into Vine Whip, which has a ridiculously huge hitbox and is as strong as most smash attacks, and is the only character who can force you to approach without actually threatening you (by healing with neutral B). Snake relies heavily on the dumb side B to sticky to back throw(?) to detonate C4 combo, and doesn't have a lot else. Zelda's Din's Fire is basically a weaker Snake C4 that you can put anywhere and can't hurt her, and Nayru's Love is a better spotdodge/airdodge. Otherwise, she's fine. Characters that don't feel like they belong in a Smash game are also poorly-designed. The obvious example is Lucario, but Lucas is like this too. The other characters I think are poorly-designed are Wolf, who was meant to be a slow space animal but turned into a faster space animal, and Toon Link, who was re-cloned into Young Link for no reason even when Toon Link was already a very good character in Brawl.

Note that well-designed and poorly-designed don't necessarily imply a particular tier position.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I think the well-designed characters are the ones who rely more on fundamentals than gimmicks. For example, Mario, Marth, ROB, or Charizard. Most of the characters who are basically ported from Melee/Brawl are this way. Poorly-designed characters rely a lot on a few specific unbalanced moves or other gimmicks to win and don't necessarily need good fundamentals. Mewtwo is a good example of this, and doesn't really need any explanation. Ivysaur is somewhat this way since he has some free setups into Vine Whip, which has a ridiculously huge hitbox and is as strong as most smash attacks, and is the only character who can force you to approach without actually threatening you (by healing with neutral B). Snake relies heavily on the dumb side B to sticky to back throw(?) to detonate C4 combo, and doesn't have a lot else. Zelda's Din's Fire is basically a weaker Snake C4 that you can put anywhere and can't hurt her, and Nayru's Love is a better spotdodge/airdodge. Otherwise, she's fine. Characters that don't feel like they belong in a Smash game are also poorly-designed. The obvious example is Lucario, but Lucas is like this too. The other characters I think are poorly-designed are Wolf, who was meant to be a slow space animal but turned into a faster space animal, and Toon Link, who was re-cloned into Young Link for no reason even when Toon Link was already a very good character in Brawl.

Note that well-designed and poorly-designed don't necessarily imply a particular tier position.

Mario can win using gimmicks lol.

Also you're silly if you think Snake is "gimmicky". I mean Rolex and Professor Pro don't ring any bells to you?

TL was designed to be similar to YL because Melee. Also Brawl TL would not work in a Melee-esque environment. Only thing he'd have is like back air.

Wolf is not faster than Fox. Thats fact. Wolf is faster than Falco though, but multiple characters are faster than Falco.

 

[Shokio]

Well-designed characters are character that have a weakness for every strength that they have. Even if a character has 2 obvious weaknesses, if will not keep them from being imbalanced if they have 10 obvious strengths. They're characters that don't have a polarized moveset. Having a polarized moveset could mean that the character either sucks so they have to rely on few moves, or a few moves are way too good so players gravitate toward them. A balanced, well-designed character is a character that encourages players to use the entirely of their moveset.

I think Luigi, Roy, Bowser, Toon Link, Zero Suit, Game & Watch, Wolf, Ike, DDD, ROB, are well designed characters.

I think Pit (arrows, no-escape Dair-Fair combos), Mario (Fireballs, DSmash), Charizard (Nair), Kirby (Dash attack and grabs), Diddy (Banana's, Dash attack, Fair) Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, are examples of poorly designed characters.

NOTE: I'm not saying everyone listed above or OP or anything, Kirby and Charizard definitely aren't. We're just talking about DESIGN here, and Zard's Nair and Kirby's Dash attack are so good that many players develop a reliance on those moves.

Like I said before, I think poorly-designed characters also pertain to characters who are LACKING in their moveset. I listed Captain Falcon and Jigglypuff, for instance. To play Falcon viably, you pretty much HAVE to go for knee combos if you want to win. His Down tilt, up-tilt, dash attack, and up-Smash, can't be used normally in the neutral game because they are lacking.. Most Falcons will actually go entire games without ever even inputting those moves. It's just Dairs, Fairs, Bairs, Uairs, and Nairs. The man can't even fight on the ground.

Jiggs is obvious - you pretty much have to wall Bairs with her if you wanna win. Poor design.

 

[1FD]

I don't think it's possible to have a character without gimmicks.
Dair > Shine > repeat is a gimmick, topped with SH Lasers and you've got a walking gimmick tagged as a decent character because he's functional through his gimmicks.
Functional gimmicks = balance.
Broken gimmicks = not.
That's my only input aside from Ganon getting TPortHoverBallz like Mewtwo. lol

 

[TastyCarcass]

I think a poorly designed character is Sonic. All of his moves (except his up b) have the same sound effect and start up. His dash attack is too good, his edgeguarding is insane and he doesn't need any tech.

I think Diddy is a well designed character. His main advantages are his bananas, but they can be used against him.
However I've heard he's getting nerfed and his bananas will no longer cause tripping, or can only be used once every 16 seconds. I don't think that's necessary. I think if he needs a nerf (other than his recovery) it should be that his bananas don't cause tripping on throw.

 

[PlateProp]

I don't think it's possible to have a character without gimmicks.
Dair > Shine > repeat is a gimmick, topped with SH Lasers and you've got a walking gimmick tagged as a decent character because he's functional through his gimmicks.
Functional gimmicks = balance.
Broken gimmicks = not.
That's my only input aside from Ganon getting TPortHoverBallz like Mewtwo. lol

I told someone this when they told me my character was gimmicks(Squirtle).

They paused, considered it, then agreed xD

Honestly though, the sad thing about PM is that it will just be completely unacceptable if anyone but the original melee top is at the top. That's kind of the way I see some parts of 3.5. Fox and Falco essentially have a broken tool, but they get to keep it because Melee. Anyone else who even comes close to this though is pretty much going to be shot down, because no one can have a broken tool but Fox and Falco and it still be acceptable.

 

[pooch182]

I think a poorly designed character is Sonic. All of his moves (except his up b) have the same sound effect and start up. His dash attack is too good, his edgeguarding is insane and he doesn't need any tech.

I think Diddy is a well designed character. His main advantages are his bananas, but they can be used against him.
However I've heard he's getting nerfed and his bananas will no longer cause tripping, or can only be used once every 16 seconds. I don't think that's necessary. I think if he needs a nerf (other than his recovery) it should be that his bananas don't cause tripping on throw.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.....

 

[Star ☆]

I think a poorly designed character is Sonic. All of his moves (except his up b) have the same sound effect and start up. His dash attack is too good, his edgeguarding is insane and he doesn't need any tech.

I agree with you on the silliness of having the same sound effect for a lot of Sonic's moves but to say that Sonic does not require tech to play is ignorant and just not correct. To play Sonic efficiently you need to have jump canceled grabs under pat for grabs and constant use of dash dancing and baiting is required to play him correctly. Other techniques like spin shots and ledge cancels of side b require on point tech with accurate analog movement.

Sonic gets great reward from pressure and punishes whilst also avoiding a lot of punishes from other characters. The flipside to this though, is that his light weight and lack of a large amount of reliable OOS options does not allow him to deal very well with the punishes of others iand he can die easily from a misstep.

Also his homing attack and other gimp based attacks only work when the opponent double jumps or recovers obviously. Try recovering low or attacking when you recover (moves such as Ganondorf's uair).

And Sonic's dash attack is very situational and highly punishable, that move along with Up Smash has quite a bit of ending lag. Look into Sonic a bit more before you consolidate this opinion.

 

[shapular]

Mario can win using gimmicks lol.

Also you're silly if you think Snake is "gimmicky". I mean Rolex and Professor Pro don't ring any bells to you?

TL was designed to be similar to YL because Melee. Also Brawl TL would not work in a Melee-esque environment. Only thing he'd have is like back air.

Wolf is not faster than Fox. Thats fact. Wolf is faster than Falco though, but multiple characters are faster than Falco.

I really don't think Mario is that gimmicky. He does have some dumb stuff like wall jump after up B, but you can't beat people just by recovering. Are you talking about fireballs? I'm not convinced that fireballs are any better than they are in Melee or Brawl. They're hard to get around in both of those games too.

What, there can't be pros of gimmicky characters? From watching them play, they seem to get a lot, if not most, of their kills from the exact method I described. I just think C4 should be a lot harder to sticky (in PM, having a C4 on you is basically a death sentence, and you can't get it off unless you're Zelda/Sheik) and Snake should get some real kill moves instead.

Young Link didn't really work in Melee either. When do you ever see any real Young Link players (not counting Armada)? TL can work in PM. They made Diddy, Olimar, and DDD work even though they're largely the same.

I've read that Wolf has the highest fall speed in PM, and according to SSBWiki his run speed is almost as fast as Fox's. His air speed is much faster too. It's all that plus his new shine game that makes me say that. Instead of a more unique, defensive and powerful space animal, he's just become another version of Falco.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I think the well-designed characters are the ones who rely more on fundamentals than gimmicks. For example ROB.

ROB is not a character who relies on fundamentals, any matchup he is involved in is very drastically different from any other the opponent's other matchups. ROB's fundamentals tools range from mediocre to bad, his unique tools, AKA gimmicks, are what stops him from being a contender for bottom tier.

I wish people who know nothing about ROB would not talk about him as if they did. In fact that applies to any character. And it seems to apply fairly well to you, shapular. Please discontinue posting in this thread; your ratio of correct statements to incorrect ones seems to be around 50:50 or worse which is essentially the equivalent of guessing and/or bullshitting to convince others you know anything.

I really wish these threads could be restricted to top player input. And I would be totally fine if that did not include me; the main issue is that I feel these kinds threads are very good at propagating misinformation when just anyone can throw their shitty invalid statements into the clusterfuck.

 

[shapular]

ROB is not a character who relies on fundamentals, any matchup he is involved in is very drastically different from any other the opponent's other matchups. ROB's fundamentals tools range from mediocre to bad, his unique tools, AKA gimmicks, are what stops him from being a contender for bottom tier.

I wish people who know nothing about ROB would not talk about him as if they did. In fact that applies to any character. And it seems to apply fairly well to you, shapular. Please discontinue posting in this thread; your ratio of correct statements to incorrect ones seems to be around 50:50 or worse which is essentially the equivalent of guessing and/or bull****ting to convince others you know anything.

Do you have anything of substance to contribute to this thread, or were you just going to bash other people's opinions without backing anything up?

You're right that I don't know a lot about ROB. I don't think I've ever played against one, but I've used him a decent amount. As I understand, his main gimmick (the side B/up B) is used as a spacing tool (sort of like an air wavedash) and therefore requires good fundamentals to use correctly. I could be wrong, but if I am, you're not going to explain why, are you? If I had to guess (which is apparently what I do), you don't post any real arguments because you're afraid of being wrong.

 

[GP&B]

Are you talking about fireballs? I'm not convinced that fireballs are any better than they are in Melee or Brawl.

Are you kidding? The difference in endlag is tremendous and they also don't decay in any way whatsever over their lifetime. Pills were balanced out in Melee because the endlag made sure you couldn't recklessly spam them. You had to be smart about when you tossed them out. Fireballs are mind-numbingly easy to spam now and the main complaint has more to do with how Mario was already high tier and never needed this buff to begin with.

 

[Phan7om]

Imo, there are a lot of characters that are well designed, some of them are close (1 or 2 moves need changing), and very few need a whole playstyle change some to the point where a lot of people will be getting butthurt from the changes.

Gimmicks are fine as long as they dont change the playstyle of that character too much. All the bad Melee characters should be just a better version of their Melee self. Same with Brawl characters, their playstyle shouldnt change that much. A special case like Lucario that are totally different is fortunately well designed tho. Giving characters gimmicks to "get better" is not a good thing to do. Unless it becomes over-polarized, that gimmick will not make the character any better but will make their design a whole lot worse... unless of course like i said its a small (only really noticeable to mains and experienced smashers change). Thats why I kinda cringe when I hear people say that giving Puff a jump cancelled rollout or a land cancelled sing will help her... NOT! True she'll theoretically be better, but that change alone will not make her any more viable, and now her playstyle is very different perhaps. Some characters needed a sorta big change to help them fit in with the game if you know what I mean (Pit and ROB's Brawl Up-B change is fine for example). But as of right now, characters are more or less how they should be designed, just some designed better. Good balance doesn't necessarily mean good design.

Like I would rather make Peach slightly faster and give her a better wavedash, than to make her Side-B the main approach tool and give her mindless autocombos for example.

Like Shapular said, characters that rely more on the skill of the player's fundamentals rather than the gimmicks of the character are very well designed. Fundamentals are basically what made Melee... well, Melee and not BrawlMinus with Melee physics like we have now DK and Marth are two examples (there are more) of pretty well designed characters and character design should aim to be more like them.

 

[Raijinken]

Good Design:

Questionable:
Diddy gained the strengths of Meleeoid play on an already powerful Brawl character. ICs lost their main strength from the past games (infinites) due to design goals, and didn't really gain anything to make up for it. Toon Link still doesn't feel good as a semiclone, and neither does Ganondorf. Jigglypuff did not transition well into the new meta, Squirtle feels like a rushdown character with too little priority to successfully rush down. Olimar is built around camping still in a game that makes it hard to camp, and G&W has too much aerial lag without other options in a game focused on aerial initiation.

Now, for mechanics:
Crouch canceling is silly, re-tethering is silly (fortunately being fixed), planking is silly, the number of mobility stalling skills (Bucket, PSI Magnet) that work multiple times in midair is silly (at least some being fixed), and the dominance of Fox is still silly (he's practically a mechanic). It's a very silly and fun game, but it could be a bit more fun if it had fewer silly mechanics.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Toon Link still doesn't feel good

wtf is wrong with you

 

[Raijinken]

wtf is wrong with you

He still feels like a semiclone to me, so until he gets further reworked (ideally with any of the massive arsenal Link has accumulated over his adventures), he won't feel right compared to normal adult Link. To be fair, Roy only feels right to me because he was my main in Melee for a good while.

 

[pooch182]

Toon Link feels like a semi-clone because his moveset looks similar. That's like saying Fox and Falco feel too similar, though.

Link has faster projectiles, better range, and different kill and combo options. Toon Link has lingering projectiles that cover space for longer, and he could be considered a more passive zoner (don't crucify me for saying he's more passive, Lunchables). Really, the only thing I would change about Toon Link would actually be a general change that would affect Link just as much. I'd love to see some sort of decay on AGT, similar to wall-jump decay. This would prevent the absurd amount of horizontal recovery both Links get with very easy to pull off bomb-jumps. I get that you might want an entirely new moveset to really differentiate the two from each other, but that's really asking a lot (PMDT please give Link a Stone of Agony that turns rumble on your opponents controller).

As far as Roy goes, he's one of my top characters that I feel is perfectly balanced. His ability to tech chase and combo is godlike, but you really have to work for Roy to look good. He's a character that keeps a player honest. His recovery actually makes sense when you compare it to how he feels on stage, and he can easily open up, and similarly be opened up to, massive combos that can lead to death. Sure, he's got a sword and similar movement to Marth, but the differences in how they play more than makes up for their aesthetic similarities.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He still feels like a semiclone to me, so until he gets further reworked (ideally with any of the massive arsenal Link has accumulated over his adventures), he won't feel right compared to normal adult Link.

Regular Link doesn't feel right to me- he feels too slow and clunky for me to play properly, even though I know intellectually that atm he's kinda busted (and undeniably stronger than tink).

It just depends on what you're used to. Toon Link is one of very few characters in this game that actually feel right and comfortable for me. My biggest/ only real complaint with him is that his Fsmash is stupid when you're standing next to an edge- and should carry you over like Kirby's dash attack.

 

[MLGF]

Wait, someone thinks PM Wolf isn't the epitome of fun and joy in a spacie? I thought it was agreed that Wolf is the epitome of Project M beauty.

Wut?

Don't look at Brawl newcomers like they have to be their brawl counterparts, look at them like unique interpretations using a slightly similar base. When it comes to Brawl characters in PM, Wolf is Perfect. Tools of a spacie, SD's like a Falcon.

P.E.R.F.E.C.T.

 

[~Dad~]

Personally I think Squirtle would be perfect if they just game him a gun.

I mean, come on, dtaunt for Falco's laser pls.

 

[~Dad~]

Really I think Squirtle is pretty cool the way he is now for the most part, though Aquajet doesn't need to have invincibility frames and up b miiight have hitboxes that reach a bit too far.

He's still bad though.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I think when certain gimmicks start working multiple times, it stops being a "gimmick" and becomes a "strategy."

That said I think Charizard isn't necessarily poorly designed just because his moveset. He definitely has 3 very strong approaches to every matchup, those being jab, nair and grab. The rest of his moves are a lot of combo fodder. Then again can you really say most characters have lots of viable moves that aren't combo fodder? People are also still not using a lot of characters' movesets because they simply aren't forced to or haven't found proper uses for them. When Sonic's spindash got nerfed we saw a lot more interesting play from him rather than the opposite like one might think. Limitations force innovation.

Nair is also pretty punishable. It's easy to bait, and in the time it takes for him to swing back his tail you can go in range and shieldgrab it. He doesn't have amazing air mobility with it. In fact my biggest issue with zard is he has very few moves safe on shield. Late nair is about it, with late uair > jab being a string that's also punishable. Once people learn to wavedash out of shield against him he is really easy to punish. It'd be nice if late fair or uair had slightly more shieldstun. He would work more similar to Marth that way which I think looking at his strengths is a good thing.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario doesn't have gimmics. His fireballs are just ******** good. Just increase the cool down and knock the damage down to 5 or something and he will be fine all around.

 

[PlateProp]

Mario doesn't have gimmics. His fireballs are just ******** good. Just increase the cool down and knock the damage down to 5 or something and he will be fine all around.

Naw, Mario needs to be toned down a bit more than just fireballs.

 

[pooch182]

In regard to Charizard's jab specifically, I'm not sure how I feel about pop-up jabs. The characters that I can think of that have them are Zard, Wario, and DK. There are probably a couple others, but that's beside the point.

I feel as though in a game where, currently, crouch canceling is a huge part of most of the cast's gameplay, a pop-up move that comes out so quickly as a jab is a dangerous tool. I feel as though Zard doesn't really need his, because he's got great range and a relatively awesome combo game once he gets you into the air. Being able to get you in the air with a single jab seems really good to me for Zard. I could see DK needing his to get stuff started, but I'm still rather skeptical of the design of it. Wario definitely deserves his, because his is rather slow, short-ranged, and doesn't really pop opponents up as far as the other two.

Can anybody try to persuade/explain to me why pop-up jabs fit in this game? I'd really appreciate seeing some other points of view to get some clarity on this.

 

[PlateProp]

In regard to Charizard's jab specifically, I'm not sure how I feel about pop-up jabs. The characters that I can think of that have them are Zard, Wario, and DK. There are probably a couple others, but that's beside the point.

I feel as though in a game where, currently, crouch canceling is a huge part of most of the cast's gameplay, a pop-up move that comes out so quickly as a jab is a dangerous tool. I feel as though Zard doesn't really need his, because he's got great range and a relatively awesome combo game once he gets you into the air. Being able to get you in the air with a single jab seems really good to me for Zard. I could see DK needing his to get stuff started, but I'm still rather skeptical of the design of it. Wario definitely deserves his, because his is rather slow, short-ranged, and doesn't really pop opponents up as far as the other two.

Can anybody try to persuade/explain to me why pop-up jabs fit in this game? I'd really appreciate seeing some other points of view to get some clarity on this.

Chairzard is sposed to be an air fighter, and the only other pop up he has is utilt. Doesn't really work well as a combo starter

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Characters that move slow, are not air fighters. Someone like pit or mk is. Zard is here to tech chase, nair and juggle fools. Try again.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

In regard to Charizard's jab specifically, I'm not sure how I feel about pop-up jabs. The characters that I can think of that have them are Zard, Wario, and DK. There are probably a couple others, but that's beside the point.

You forgot Fox and Falco.
Actually, that may well be the answer to your question.

 

[victra♥]

This thread is filled with delusional players who main characters with broken gimmicks who are trying to justify that their characters are 'good' design.

Characters that are well designed have obvious strengths and weaknesses, and with no abuseable, gimmicky, mechanics.

Well designed characters that come to mind are Wario (poor recovery), Wolf (spacie), Charizard (comboable, no projectile), Metaknight (crouch cancel everything, light), Ike (poor recovery) and Roy (fast faller, mediocre recovery, no projectile).

Poorly designed characters (not necessarily broken as a whole, but has poorly designed aspects). Squirtle (many characters have 0 options against side b), Diddy (safe/free dash attack), Mewtwo (everything, but the float nair (plus frames on shield!!!) on shield is fairly significant), Ivysaur (free recovery, bair is extremely polarizing for certain match ups, especially as an edgeguard), Snake (upb oos being able to cancel into an aerial is silly, and the whole jab reset -> tranq -> sticky -> uthrow -> c4 combo is too brain dead and devastating to be a missed tech punish), and Lucas (free recovery, kills off throws, the list goes on).

Consider the top characters in Melee: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, and Peach. Although relatively unchanged, relative to the rest of the PM cast they're all considerably weaker than some of the characters in PM. That says a lot about the design of some of PM's cast.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mask's Zard playstyle is the OTZ

edit: Victor tbh I'm surprised you don't play him. Zard is literally Falcon + more fire

edit2: Actually, Marth got buffed in terms of recovery and his throws being harder to DI. IMO he has really good matchups against basically every new/buffed PM character, including the broken ones like Mewtwo/Lucas. He can beat absolutely anyone, which few characters can really say.

 

[PlateProp]

Characters that move slow, are not air fighters. Someone like pit or mk is. Zard is here to tech chase, nair and juggle fools. Try again.

Please read, i said "Supposed".

 

[Rᴏb]

Can 3.5 come out already? I want the dumb threads to stop.

Please read, i said "Supposed".

That still makes you wrong.

 

[~Dad~]

Squirtle (many characters have 0 options against side b),

I didn't realize there were characters without grabs lmao

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

If you're still getting wrecked by Squirtle side B, you need to put in some lab time.

Withdraw is many things. Unpunishable is not one of them.

 

[PlateProp]

Can 3.5 come out already? I want the dumb threads to stop.



That still makes you wrong.

Doesn't make me wrong at all. Supposed means intended purpose. Charizard was intended to be an air fighter.

So you're wrong

 

[victra♥]

I didn't realize there were characters without grabs lmao

Isn't sideb plus on block and provide a free cross up? or am I mistaken.

I've discussed with other top pm players locally (Big D, Bladewise, KillL0ck etc) and the consensus was to take the hit and wait it out, or do a really convoluted pivot -> shield (so squirtle hits your back) -> grab. But then again there are no good squirtle players here.

 

[~Dad~]

isn't sideb plus on block and provide a free cross up? or am I mistaken.

You are mistaken. Side b looks a whole lot better than it actually is.

Don't get me wrong, it's still good, but it's not busted. Side b spam is really unsafe.

 

[Rᴏb]

Doesn't make me wrong at all. Supposed means intended purpose. Charizard was intended to be an air fighter.

So you're wrong

OOooooh, so that's what" supposed" means. Now I really understand why you're wrong.

 

[PlateProp]

Isn't sideb plus on block and provide a free cross up? or am I mistaken.

I've discussed with other top pm players locally (Big D, Bladewise, KillL0ck etc) and the consensus was to take the hit and wait it out, or do a really convoluted pivot -> shield (so squirtle hits your back) -> grab. But then again there are no good squirtle players here.

Lol, as you talk to Dad, argueably 3rd best Squirtle

OOooooh, so that's what" supposed" means. Now I rewlly understand why you're wrong.

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/charizard
Gg Bro

 

[~Dad~]

Lol, as you talk to Dad, argueably 3rd best Squirtle

Yeah but literally every Squirtle player is bad.

All of us.