Character Design in PM

[PMS | Tink-er]

squirtle's side b is unusable against characters with tether grabs or large disjoints, but is always grabable, no matter how short your grab range is. and you can spot dodge it, or jump over it, or crouch cancel it, etc. etc. etc.

but yeah, my squirtle is also bad.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Suppose, really just means, maybe.

Yeah but literally every Squirtle player is bad.

All of us.

Burnsy no bad

 

[~Dad~]

squirtle's side b is unusable against characters with tether grabs or large disjoints, but is always grabable, no matter how short your grab range is. and you can spot dodge it, or jump over it, or crouch cancel it, etc. etc. etc.

but yeah, my squirtle is also bad.

Squirtle's grab is tiny and I still grab other Squirtle's out of side b. It's hilarious.

 

[~Dad~]

Suppose, really just means, maybe.

Burnsy no bad

I love Burnsy, but we both are bad and no good.

Squirtle has way more to offer us than what we are currently using.

 

[~Dad~]

We should all just play Falco that bird has a gun ffs.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Squirtle's grab is tiny and I still grab other Squirtle's out of side b. It's hilarious.

how dis work

 

[~Dad~]

how dis work

~~~spacing~~~

EDIT: S P A C I N G

 

[Rᴏb]

http://projectmgame.com/en/characters/charizard
Gg Bro

semantics
He was made with aerial chases in mind but I disagree that that would define him as an aerial fighter, supposing so is presumptuous. There is much more to the character and the page you linked clearly demonstrates that.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

~~~spacing~~~

EDIT: S P A C I N G

... In what way
Tell me a situation where you grab the side b and all will be healed

 

[~Dad~]

... In what way
Tell me a situation where you grab the side b and all will be healed

So, I'm playing a Squirtle player, and like most Squirtle's, they side b a lot.

I see the side b start up.

Wavedash back > grab, or run back pivot grab, or just stand there and grab. The hitbubbles on the move aren't that big so it's pretty easy once you learn how fast side b moves the character.

I do the same thing to Yoshi's egg roll.

Make Squirtle players fear using withdraw. If your character has a good grab range it's even easier. There are so many moves that can knock him out of it too. Mess that turtle up.

 

[victinivcreate1]

This thread is filled with delusional players who main characters with broken gimmicks who are trying to justify that their characters are 'good' design.

Characters that are well designed have obvious strengths and weaknesses, and with no abuseable, gimmicky, mechanics.

Well designed characters that come to mind are Wario (poor recovery), Wolf (spacie), Charizard (comboable, no projectile), Metaknight (crouch cancel everything, light), Ike (poor recovery) and Roy (fast faller, mediocre recovery, no projectile).

Poorly designed characters (not necessarily broken as a whole, but has poorly designed aspects). Squirtle (many characters have 0 options against side b), Diddy (safe/free dash attack), Mewtwo (everything, but the float nair (plus frames on shield!!!) on shield is fairly significant), Ivysaur (free recovery, bair is extremely polarizing for certain match ups, especially as an edgeguard), Snake (upb oos being able to cancel into an aerial is silly, and the whole jab reset -> tranq -> sticky -> uthrow -> c4 combo is too brain dead and devastating to be a missed tech punish), and Lucas (free recovery, kills off throws, the list goes on).

Consider the top characters in Melee: Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Jiggs, and Peach. Although relatively unchanged, relative to the rest of the PM cast they're all considerably weaker than some of the characters in PM. That says a lot about the design of some of PM's cast.

Characters that are well designed have obvious strengths and weaknesses, and with no abuseable, gimmicky, mechanics.

Characters that are well designed have obvious strengths and weaknesses

Snake (upb oos being able to cancel into an aerial is silly, and the whole jab reset -> tranq -> sticky -> uthrow -> c4 combo is too brain dead and devastating to be a missed tech punish)

You don't know much about Snake do you? Literally no OoS options to fight good spacing. One of the worst neutral games in PM. A recovery that is extremely easy to gimp.

Easy to gimp recovery.
A very difficult to work with neutral game.
Poor OoS options against good spacing.

Those are not clear cut weaknesses? Especially the first two.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Snake's UpB is straight invincible frame 1-4, and he has one of the best standing grabs in the game.

His OoS game is far from bad.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

... Are you high lad? Snake doesn't have a horrid OoS game. His up B, is one of his best options and it is intangible for the first few frames, and the frame it loses that, BOOM, hitbox, that combos into a lot. It's hella good and prof goes miles with it. That is snake's BnB OoS option, and it's dam good. Aside from that, he has a great grab and nair(nades sorta as well) you could label him with tag of limited OoS options.

His recovery is also, not easy to gimp. He will take a good amount of DMG coming back, but I don't see a good snake just falling down to his death.

I also don't think, he has one of the worst neutral games.

 

[victra♥]

You don't know much about Snake do you? Literally no OoS options to fight good spacing. One of the worst neutral games in PM. A recovery that is extremely easy to gimp.

Easy to gimp recovery.
A very difficult to work with neutral game.
Poor OoS options against good spacing.

Those are not clear cut weaknesses? Especially the first two.

You misunderstood. In my post I mentioned that Snake has poorly designed aspects not that he was poorly designed as a whole.

 

[victinivcreate1]

... Are you high lad? Snake doesn't have a horrid OoS game. His up B, is one of his best options and it is intangible for the first few frames, and the frame it loses that, BOOM, hitbox, that combos into a lot. It's hella good and prof goes miles with it. That is snake's BnB OoS option, and it's dam good. Aside from that, he has a great grab and nair(nades sorta as well) you could label him with tag of limited OoS options.

His recovery is also, not easy to gimp. He will take a good amount of DMG coming back, but I don't see a good snake just falling down to his death.

I also don't think, he has one of the worst neutral games.

5 frame jump squat. Nair is not a good OoS option at all.
8 frame grab. Not completely safe.
Also you ignored the part where I said GOOD SPACING wrecks Snake's OoS options.
Marth has better OoS options than Snake and he's still considered to have a hard time dealing with shield pressure.

 

[~Dad~]

Guys obviously you don't get it.

Snake can't hit you OOS if you aren't next to him.

Obviously his OOS game is bad.

 

[Blank Mauser]

I still don't see how Metaknight supposedly loses to crouch cancel. He is no more weak to it than any other character. If someone is CC'ing you, dthrow, Usmash, or do full jump instead of short hop aerials. Also have fun DI'ing down against instant DC. EVERYONE has a problem with crouch canceling. That's like saying a character is weak to dash dancing. Yes you will lose if the player has better spacing/prediction than you...its not a weakness of the character.

Same when people say his weakness is projectiles. Dash attack is the only grounded move he needs to clank, he has a great run speed, IDC, AND hes small as ****. Mario's fireballs go over him...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mario's fireballs are not easy to deal with, as mk, unless he can fully utilize
The platforms. Regardless, it is a problem for mk, and if you haven't played the MU on ether side, plz don't speculate. People who mention mk's size, when referring to him and projectiles, are idiots. FYI, mk gets destroyed by samus. Ask esam if you want.

You should try pressing down vs mk. You can CC things like his fsmash, till 80-90%, (higher if you fat) CC his dash atk and punish for free, you can sheild it, turn around and then grab him, CC the dsmash, nair, dair, etc. You hold down against mk and you'll question why you ever thought he was invincible. MK is one of those guys who rekts you, if you don't know about him, and you if you can't CC.

 

[Stevo]

Guys obviously you don't get it.

Snake can't hit you OOS if you aren't next to him.

Obviously his OOS game is bad.

I vote for some vacuum windboxes in front of and behind Snake frame 1 of Up-b to pull enemies in. Also make the wind reflect projectlies so Snake can punish long range projectiles OoS

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

i'm not sure if you're trolling stevo

 

[Blank Mauser]

Mario's fireballs are not easy to deal with, as mk, unless he can fully utilize
The platforms. Regardless, it is a problem for mk, and if you haven't played the MU on ether side, plz don't speculate. People who mention mk's size, when referring to him and projectiles, are idiots. FYI, mk gets destroyed by samus. Ask esam if you want.

You should try pressing down vs mk. You can CC things like his fsmash, till 80-90%, (higher if you fat) CC his dash atk and punish for free, you can sheild it, turn around and then grab him, CC the dsmash, nair, dair, etc. You hold down against mk and you'll question why you ever thought he was invincible. MK is one of those guys who rekts you, if you don't know about him, and you if you can't CC.

Sorry but I play the matchup more than any other match-up and I constantly lab out punishing every single one of his moves. Unless you have a great move to punish with like shine, bite, a short hop aerial etc. then the only way to punish MK's dash attack is to CC it. Again though, MK has perfectly fine answers to CC. Try holding down when he just runs up and grabs you, Usmashes, or does full jump aerials like I said in my post. Specifically full jump retreating nair. Then there is always the threat of IDC which is not humanly reactable and the only way to counter it is to already be throwing moves in front of you(Which if he baits, he can IDC). Also he has a fair amount of control in the trajectory of Dair. Not only can he aim it, but he can slightly drift with it as well. If he lands behind you, you better have a shine or very quick Dsmash or you won't punish him. It is not that free in the slightest. Again, I play Zard vs. MK more than any other match-up and have gone through numerous characters as counterpicks as well. I could make a compilation video of all my findings on punishing the character and all I can conclude is that people give terrible advice on fighting him. Holding down is not the answer.

If Metaknight has a problem with Mario's fireballs then so does everybody. Again, 4th highest dash speed and tiny hurtbox. I'm crying giant croc tears for poor Metaknight mains. He can't slice through projectiles in the air mindlessly...how sad.

Also I don't have to ask Esam about that match-up, I actually think Samus handles characters like MK and Pit fairly well already. But its not just because of projectiles, its because heavyweight + slow falling speed which doesn't let her get combo'd as easily, survives fairly well, and also zair out ranging a lot of their approaches. I've grinded out this matchup on both sides, though I think "destroys MK" is exaggerating. It's more like she has potential and forces the MK to play differently.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I still don't see how Metaknight supposedly loses to crouch cancel. He is no more weak to it than any other character. If someone is CC'ing you, dthrow, Usmash, or do full jump instead of short hop aerials. Also have fun DI'ing down against instant DC. EVERYONE has a problem with crouch canceling. That's like saying a character is weak to dash dancing. Yes you will lose if the player has better spacing/prediction than you...its not a weakness of the character.

Same when people say his weakness is projectiles. Dash attack is the only grounded move he needs to clank, he has a great run speed, IDC, AND hes small as ****. Mario's fireballs go over him...

It kinda erks me when people say that. I havent tested this on everyone, but I know that in MK dittos, after one throw at 0, MK can no longer CC GSL. GSL pretty much destroys CCing.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

5 frame jump squat. Nair is not a good OoS option at all.
8 frame grab. Not completely safe.
Also you ignored the part where I said GOOD SPACING wrecks Snake's OoS options.
Marth has better OoS options than Snake and he's still considered to have a hard time dealing with shield pressure.

-5 frame jump start is pretty average, honestly (Falco is a 5-framer as well). Not to mention Snake's Dair starts up on frame 3, and leads into full combos. You've also got UpB OoS, which has I-Frames on start up.
-Snake's grab catches on frames 7-8 (average start up for a standing grab), according to the Snake Frame Data thread.
-Good spacing wrecks everyone's OoS options (well, unless you're Mewtwo. Then just tele-float out for free.)

All in all, Snake has a mixed bag of tools for getting out of his shield, and they're pretty solid. He may lose to heavy shield pressure, but I feel that's more of a strength of characters which can lay on such a heavy offense, rather than a weakness of Snake.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Thing is Snake's only real option to punish good spacing is wavedash back to reset situation. His wavedash isn't good enough to try and attempt to punish good spacing. For example Marth can beat good spacing by wavedashing OoS and then grab. Snake can't do that as well. 1 his wavedash is slower, shorter and even his grab range is shorter than Marth's. I mean he can still do it but it has to be very quick and fluid.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Thing is Snake's only real option to punish good spacing is wavedash back to reset situation.

Kinda like Bowser and Samus?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Kinda like Bowser and Samus?

Yeah. I find it dumb that Bowser has one (pretty good though) reliable OoS option, and then everything else about him is bad.

Samus has no long range OoS options but she got buffed in numerous other ways so it doesn't affect her that much.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It kinda erks me when people say that. I havent tested this on everyone, but I know that in MK dittos, after one throw at 0, MK can no longer CC GSL. GSL pretty much destroys CCing.

You missed the part where I said you can CC his fsmash to 80-90%
You can CC a lot more than that, if you just try it.

 

[pooch182]

Yeah. I find it dumb that Bowser has one (pretty good though) reliable OoS option, and then everything else about him is bad.

Samus has no long range OoS options but she got buffed in numerous other ways so it doesn't affect her that much.

Why does Samus need long-range OoS options? She has UpB OoS, which, when timed well, abruptly ends any shield pressure and tacks on 10% if SDI'd poorly. If you're being threatened in shield by decent spacing, firstly, you're playing Samus incorrectly, and secondly, you've got nair or even zair OoS. They might not be the most fluid options, but I'll be damned if they don't work pretty well. She's also got a really good WD OoS, which, when combined with UpB OoS, leads to mobility that can't be pressured easily by characters like Falco.

You seem to have an issue with being pressured by great spacing from Marth or other similar characters. You shouldn't feel stuck in place because you're shielding against a Marth who is in tipper range. Move. Stop hiding in shield against characters with great movement and grab ranges. You're gonna have a bad time. Hell, you could even just pull grenade and drop it and hide in shield to relieve pressure and try to set up again. Use your traps as Snake, that's what he's built around.

Also, you don't need to punish OoS. You say that Snake's only option is WD back into something, which would be fine, if his case were actually so grim. Resetting a neutral game means a lot, and it's your own fault if you can't capitalize on that.

 

[Stevo]

i'm not sure if you're trolling stevo

I'm from Canada
Trolls can't survive in this climate.


But as for the topic, I feel like there's not much point in discussing all this unless people are willing to start defining their terms, such as "Gimmick".

Like, is it a matchup polarizing attack?
Or something that the character basically must use?
Or something that is really good but not-melee-so-therefore-bad?

everybody could be arguing different things.

 

[PlateProp]

I'm from Canada
Trolls can't survive in this climate.


But as for the topic, I feel like there's not much point in discussing all this unless people are willing to start defining their terms, such as "Gimmick".

Like, is it a matchup polarizing attack?
Or something that the character basically must use?
Or something that is really good but not-melee-so-therefore-bad?

everybody could be arguing different things.

Everything that isint Lasers and Shine is gimmicks obviously.

 

[pooch182]

In my opinion, a gimmick encompasses a few different traits. First and foremost, it's got a very low amount of technical prowess to perform. Take, for example, full-hop double fireballs for Mario. You get two projectiles that are hit-confirms, come at different trajectories (effectively covering multiple options) and land cancels so you can immediately capitalize.

FHDF are silly because of how versatile and effective they are at the cost of pressing Y and then B twice. I'm all for **** like the crazy stuff Lucas can do (save for two kill throws) because most of it requires a high amount of inputs with a small window to perform correctly. It goes back to my wall of text post about Falco shield pressure. Is it good? F**K YEAH! Is it simple to do effectively? Not really.

Characters that can very easily abuse a technique that has seemingly no disadvantages and can be applied in most match ups makes little sense to me. Think of Falco in Melee for a second. Pew Pew controls a the neutral from a far distance, and can be used to move in to pressure shield. His lasers are damn good, and they can be used against basically every character besides Peach, Puff, and Powershield. He controls the neutral, but it's up to the skill of the player to capitalize on when they close the gap on the shielding opponent. Mario doesn't need to do that. He can safely camp fireballs to deal massive damage, and then close the gap and perform relatively low-skill strings or auto-combos that will kill very easily. D-throw to Fair is a thing. It's a thing at high percents even. "But Pooch, Doc had that ish in Melee, bro" Cut the ****. Doc didn't have a god-tier projectile and free recovery. He had a decent combo game, pills were alright at best, and he could chain grab a bunch of the cast. That's about it.

To me, a gimmick is essentially a low-skill technique that can be picked up and used in like 5 minutes, but has an outcome that likens said technique to something that would take dozens of hours to practice and perfect in order to use in competitive play.

 

[PMS | Tink-er]

by that definition, all of m2's float and tele mechanics and options aren't a gimmick, as actually using them effectively takes a great amount of skill.

the same could be said for bowser's, squirtle's, and yoshi's armour frames. ICs desyncs are totally character centric, and so are olimar's pikmin. zelda's and snake's games revolve around traps to control the stage and set up for moves that kill very early. these things are all highly polarizing, and not easy to use in the slightest.

almost nothing in the game is actually easy to abuse, given your opponent knows the matchup. but even things that seems free to some people, like all of m2's float and tele stuff, can be quite difficult to pick up and use effectively.

most people consider m2's shenanigans to be gimmicky, so maybe you should reevaluate your definition.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Again, by average terms a gimmick could just be a defining trait in a character that is used to attract attention to it or make said character unique. By fighting game terms a gimmick usually refers to something that only works because the opponent doesn't know how to counter it.

This is why I feel smash players mis-use this term so much. As I said in my post, when a gimmick works multiple times, it starts to stretch into the territory of "strategy." That's not to say it can't still be a gimmick, as people can have a slow time adapting to a variety of gimmicks because the meta is still developing.

 

[pooch182]

All of Mewtwo's teleport options aren't gimmicky, but the fact that, regardless of how many times he gets hit after teleporting, he can just continue to act out of it in order to safely return to the neutral is gimmicky, by my standards. Saying that teleport into float nair on the top of someone's shield is difficult is rather laughable, because it can be learned merely through watching and practicing for less than 10 minutes. If I can do it after having played the character for 3 matches, it's not technically demanding.

IC desyncs aren't gimmicky in the slightest, because they are difficult to effectively use in a lot of scenarios. There's a reason we don't see a massive amount of IC's players in Melee, because it's god-damn difficult to use them efficiently. It takes a lot of awareness to manage two characters that behave separately when 'prompted' to. Stuff like wobbling, where it only takes a little while to learn the timing is rather gimmicky because, although there's a very specific window of time to properly execute it, the inputs are not high in volume, and your opponent pretty much can't retaliate whatsoever. I get that set ups for a wobble can be difficult, but the act of a wobble itself is rather simple.

Olimar's Pikmin are far from gimmicky. Are they well designed? Not necessarily (weird recovery and ****). Does Olimar have to have Pikmin in order to succeed? Absolutely. That's because the design of his move set was built around this concept, not because the Pikmin are an abusable move. Micromanaging your Pikmin order and being cognizant as to what you need to do in order to set up for a grab if you've got a blue as your next in line, etc. and maintaining your Pikmin so they can bloom is difficult and requires a lot of awareness while playing. Olimar suffers heavily after losing a stock, because he starts with no Pikmin, and is basically required to waste all of his invincibility on pulling them. It's a heavy weakness that balances (really too negative to properly balance) how solid Pikmin can be should you be a competent player who is aware of Olimar's limits and very well practiced.

Zelda and Snake don't really bother me too much. That being said, I'm relatively unfamiliar with both characters because we don't have too many great Snakes or Zelda players in my region, save for Sago and Plasma, who I rarely get to play.

 

[pooch182]

I feel as though the issue is the ambiguity of the definition of "Gimmick" as a community, as Blank has sort of brought up.

It's such a difficult thing to put into clear-cut words, mainly because we're trying to apply objectivity to a term that evaluates subjective actions. Is Mario's fireball dumb? It depends on whether or not the player knows/wants to use fireball in a dumb way. It's player dependent/specific. I think a huge issue with how we define it is that we are essentially selfish when we talk about a gimmicky character. If a player suffers against a particular character, a lot of times, it's easy for said player to just point their finger at the design of the character to justify their struggle. Of course, a lot of players also refuse to acknowledge any sort of gimmicks that their own main is accused of having.

 

[Stevo]

How about we just don't use the word gimmick?

If you think something is not fun, say it is not fun.
if it is polarizing, say that.
If it is strong against those who don't know the counter, say that.
If it is an overly rewarding strategy, say that.
etc.

Also recognize that it is your opinion and that you probably have a lot of bias based on your experiences versus those characters. Saying so-and-so is gimmicky pretty much adds nothing.

 

[Mera Mera]

In regard to Charizard's jab specifically, I'm not sure how I feel about pop-up jabs. The characters that I can think of that have them are Zard, Wario, and DK. There are probably a couple others, but that's beside the point.

I feel as though in a game where, currently, crouch canceling is a huge part of most of the cast's gameplay, a pop-up move that comes out so quickly as a jab is a dangerous tool. I feel as though Zard doesn't really need his, because he's got great range and a relatively awesome combo game once he gets you into the air. Being able to get you in the air with a single jab seems really good to me for Zard. I could see DK needing his to get stuff started, but I'm still rather skeptical of the design of it. Wario definitely deserves his, because his is rather slow, short-ranged, and doesn't really pop opponents up as far as the other two.

Can anybody try to persuade/explain to me why pop-up jabs fit in this game? I'd really appreciate seeing some other points of view to get some clarity on this.

Zard's jab is crouch cancelable by Mario (100 weight, which is average) until 52% if he hits with jab's sweetspot (a small hitbox at jabs max horizontal range) and until 67% if he hits with jab's sourspot (most of jab's hibox). After said percents at said ranges, jab still doesn't lift the crouching opponent, but it finally causes a knockdown, because jab's knockback * 2/3 (you take two thirds knockback when crouching) is finally >= 80 knockback (the knockback required for knockdown/tumble after hitstun).

As for jab's utility as a punish move, if the opponent is in endlag and being hit by Zard's jab, they can hold down and hit shield before the hit (think of it like trying to shield a move), and you will tech stand the knockdown and punish Zard's jab.

As for jab's combo ability, even when not crouch canceled, jab never leads to a true combo if DI'd correctly (sans against spacies at low %). If they DI down and away, they can always jump away in time or even attempt a counter hit.

I agree that it's a very good move, as when they don't crouch cancel it, they will be put into the air, which is ideal for Zard. Honestly, I think the issue is that it shouldn't be thought of as a jab, when really it's start up and endlag more closely resembles most tilts. It's faster than average for a tilt and slower than average for a jab (comes out frame 5, and the hitbox/wing reaches it peak at frame 9... frame 10 the hitboxes are gone). But the endlag is longer than many tilts in this game and way longer than any jab (ends frame 35 with IASA at frame 31). It can be safe-ish if spaced right, but it's a lot less safe than most jabs. Also keep in mind that while Zard's "neutral tilt" is very good, it also results in Zard lacking a jab. He cannot jab reset people, and he cannot jab/grab mixup people on shield. While I wouldn't welcome the change, Zard might actually be better if he had a normal jab instead.

I'll also mention that big characters NEED really good tools to be good. Zard is just above the 50% line of the cast (Metroid has said this as well). I personally think that Zard is the ONLY fatty who is in the top half of the cast.

Edit: Also hi Pooch (I'm Mera Mera / Andy... I've been coming to WDWs lately).

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why does Samus need long-range OoS options? She has UpB OoS, which, when timed well, abruptly ends any shield pressure and tacks on 10% if SDI'd poorly. If you're being threatened in shield by decent spacing, firstly, you're playing Samus incorrectly, and secondly, you've got nair or even zair OoS. They might not be the most fluid options, but I'll be damned if they don't work pretty well. She's also got a really good WD OoS, which, when combined with UpB OoS, leads to mobility that can't be pressured easily by characters like Falco.

You seem to have an issue with being pressured by great spacing from Marth or other similar characters. You shouldn't feel stuck in place because you're shielding against a Marth who is in tipper range. Move. Stop hiding in shield against characters with great movement and grab ranges. You're gonna have a bad time. Hell, you could even just pull grenade and drop it and hide in shield to relieve pressure and try to set up again. Use your traps as Snake, that's what he's built around.

Also, you don't need to punish OoS. You say that Snake's only option is WD back into something, which would be fine, if his case were actually so grim. Resetting a neutral game means a lot, and it's your own fault if you can't capitalize on that.

Snake has multiple weaknesses. One being that his safest OoS option being wavedash OoS, which resets to neutral. Another thing is that Snake's neutral game is pretty bad. He literally has to punish mistakes, or try to surprise them wirh a DACUS. Every once in a while the crawl through into crawl attack/grab/DACUS will wprk. But those are less than ideal mix ups. His third weaknesses is his pretty easily edgeguarded recovery. Its travels far but moves slowly and has limited horizontal momentum shifting ability. And the hitboxes on the move only last for so long.

If he gets pressured, the fact that his best option resets uim to neutral definitely hurts him. I'm not pulling things outta my ass either. Snake's neutral is lousy. His OoS can really be great or lousy too.

 

[1FD]

Better word.
Cheese

Snake's U-Throw is cheesy.
It has low BKB so it sets up free combos and sticks early
It has a bunch of KBG so it sets up free kills with C4 late
It's from a Grab which is already one of Snake's best qualities

It's like how Pit's Grab could lead into anything at any time, and then its range was BUFFED going into 3.0
That's called cheesing. When you take something that's good, and you make it so good it's just like 'OK why the heck is this BETTER now?' and it becomes cheesy.

It's like Marioballz and Linkrangz. Should we buff them somehow? No. They're already really good qualities for them. If they were worse, would they still be good? Yeah. Are they at the point where it's like 'OK why the heck is this SO good?'
Probably.

Maybe Kirby's D-Throw is bordering on cheesy, but it's tagged to a character that has almost a harder time pressuring people into getting Grabbed than Snake, and doesn't have nearly as solid a Grab mechanically.
If you made the Grab bigger, you would definitely be getting too cheesy.
Does it need toning down? Probably, but some toning in its certainty for follow-up won't make it worse so much as less 'OK why is this so guaranteed' and it'll get rid of some of the cheesing aspect.

AKA, we're fermenting dairy products too much.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Better word.
Cheese

Snake's U-Throw is cheesy.
It has low BKB so it sets up free combos and sticks early
It has a bunch of KBG so it sets up free kills with C4 late
It's from a Grab which is already one of Snake's best qualities

It's like how Pit's Grab could lead into anything at any time, and then its range was BUFFED going into 3.0
That's called cheesing. When you take something that's good, and you make it so good it's just like 'OK why the heck is this BETTER now?' and it becomes cheesy.

It's like Marioballz and Linkrangz. Should we buff them somehow? No. They're already really good qualities for them. If they were worse, would they still be good? Yeah. Are they at the point where it's like 'OK why the heck is this SO good?'
Probably.

Maybe Kirby's D-Throw is bordering on cheesy, but it's tagged to a character that has almost a harder time pressuring people into getting Grabbed than Snake, and doesn't have nearly as solid a Grab mechanically.
If you made the Grab bigger, you would definitely be getting too cheesy.
Does it need toning down? Probably, but some toning in its certainty for follow-up won't make it worse so much as less 'OK why is this so guaranteed' and it'll get rid of some of the cheesing aspect.

AKA, we're fermenting dairy products too much.

Up throw C4 would be a kill set up regardless of KB decrease. Unless they made it crazy weak. Then we got down throw tech chase DACUS C4.