Character Competitive Impressions

[PKBeam]

"Thousands" means you have more than one thousand, counting by integers, e.g. Two thousands.

also it's not like memorising 1377 lines of notes for an exam.

 

[Saturn_]

"Thousands" means you have more than one thousand, counting by integers, e.g. Two thousands.
you don't say 1.5 millions, you say 1.5 million.

also it's not like memorising 1377 lines of notes for an exam.

Is this grammar quibble really what you took away from that post? I feel like there were a few other things in there besides the word 'thousands'.

 

[thehard]

1.) Customs-on is an acknowledgement that the core roster isn't enough. It's an explicit admittance that the core roster of 50 characters isn't good enough and not interesting enough. It de-legitimizes the game. This is a problem because

2.) Customized gameplay is bad for the long-term health of the community. Smash isn't Skyrim; Melee didn't need mods. Project M was an acknowledgement that Brawl isn't a very good game, that gameplay needed to be spiced up, and now is fighting to remain in tournaments and has faced numerous setbacks this year. Smash has always struggled for relevancy; I don't think customs are going to be welcoming to outsiders, because

3.) There isn't in-game support for customs. Customs are not permitted when playing "With Anyone" and For Glory does not allow for customs. This is probably the biggest reason I am opposed to customs. The next biggest would be that

4.) Permutations of characters will number in the thousands. It's not simply a question of how many new moves would come into the game. It's that there would be an enormous number of permutations of movesets. You wouldn't just be preparing for Mario, you'd be preparing for twenty Marios, the one withh Fast Fireball and Shocking Cape, and the one with Shocking Cape and Scalding Fludd, and the one with customs on in every slot, etc. The roster is 50 (51? I always mix it up) and I believe there would be thousands of different possible character loadouts, but I haven't done the math, and I admittedly and am not sure exactly how many custom moves in total there are. Because of how many loadouts there would be,

5.) Extremely defensive play would become the norm. Imagine a third jump was added to Melee. Everything else remains the same, but now there is a third jump. Wouldn't that change everything? Because it wouldn't just be the single extra move that would matter, it would be how it would interact with other moves, with Fox's upair and Falco's dair and Ganondorf's bair and on and on and on. Of course. You already know this. So why do I have to explain that turning customs on would create for an unpredictable environment? When every opponent is a special little snowflake, defensive play is rewarded the most, and the campers stand victorious.

6.) The game will not be balanced. It took just one tiny little interaction - Diddy's down-throw to upair - to cause the community to scream that the game was broken and needed patching to balance. And the core roster was extensively tested for balance! And now you're going to dump a massive additional movepool on the game and assume everything will be okey-dokey? When that movepool was never integrated with the core game, can only be used under special circumstances, and in fact requires unlocking? Kay...

I don't know if anyone watched Tourney Locator's Shockwave tournament last night, but there was an incredible amount of derping around, weird deaths, and cheese, and an air of "WTF was that?" dominated the stream. I guarantee customs are a turnoff to the tournament scene, which is why I don't support customs-on in tournaments.

Here we go then.

1.) Customs on is an acknowledgment that us Smash 4 players love Smash 4 and want it to be played to its full potential.

2.) Custom moves are accessed via an in-game togglable setting, not a mod, so I don't see why you're comparing the two. I can't really argue this point because you made no attempt to follow up on it.

3.) There is in-game support for Customs: Customs can be used. As for For Glory not allowing them- I guess smashers had no way of practicing the past 3 games due to no online/poor online. If only you could turn on Customs when playing locally or with friends...hum...

4.) Like any multiplayer competitive game with build variety, you will see a meta develop around the best customs and custom sets for each character, so the number of variations you'll have to deal with will likely be much lower than you're anticipating. Why is this a bad thing anyway? MANY popular multiplayer games offer EXTREME variety in building your character (and these games generally have 5 times as many players on the field as any given Smash game). Smash 4 is fairly light on variance in this respect. You WILL be able to memorize what the moves do, and how to play around them, as long as you practice and do a little studying. Adaptability and matchup knowledge more than ever are going to become valued Smash skills. I for one think this is great.

5.+6.) There are people more qualified to talk about this point than me. I'll just say that customs help both offense and defense but likely favor offense in the grand scheme of things. Further more, defensive play is not inherently bad but Customs make defensive play altogether more interesting (the chat actually ENJOYED Rosalina play during Shockwave). It doesn't sound like you've actually played much with customs and are just bandying about the idea of a doomsday-esque ultra-defensive Smash 4 endgame.

We don't truly know how customs will affect the metagame in the long term, but refusing to explore what looks like a fruitful, exciting addition to the game is just plain silly. LOTS of people can testify to how much fun a Customs on environment is if you ask.

As for your last point: This literally happens every time something new is introduced or something old is reworked in a game. Mass confusion and timid play until the kinks are ironed out. The trick is giving players time to learn and develop the new game. Weird deaths and "cheese" are PAR THE COURSE this early on. (For the record, there was very little of this at Shockwave anyway and I refuse to call barely explored moves/mechanics cheese. Blame yourself before you blame the game.)

Really, were you actually paying attention? The commentators were hyped and the chat was hyped. There were no time outs and games went as fast as they ever have.

Why should the Smash community NOT pursue this?

 

[PKBeam]

you mean your last sentence? yeah i replied to that as well.
I think I screwed up my math there somewhere.... need to go double check

 

[NairWizard]

While I think this is a conversation worth having, would it be possible to keep this thread about character competitive impressions and not whether or not customs should be legal? The philosophical debate about customs belongs elsewhere.

 

[incrediblej]

1.377 is more than one thousand, hence thousands. Thanks for the info, I didn't know that was the total. Kind of proves my point, doesn't it?

Your not supposed to remember all the customs, they are like marios fireball and dr. Marios pills your not completely changing it but if you play smart you can adapt to it and each caracter is only going to have like two viable customs and when using a character you just need to know if the match up is in your favor and if not just look at your character's weaknesses

 

[thehard]

While I think this is a conversation worth having, would it be possible to keep this thread about character competitive impressions and not whether or not customs should be legal? The philosophical debate about customs belongs elsewhere.

teehee ok

 

[Saturn_]

While I think this is a conversation worth having, would it be possible to keep this thread about character competitive impressions and not whether or not customs should be legal? The philosophical debate about customs belongs elsewhere.

Okay.

I'm trying to make up my mind between Mario vs. Luigi. Luigi's fireballs are better, but Mario's tilts are much more versatile and his combo game seems more fluid than Luigi, who seems to depend on throws to set up strings. Mario seems more improvisational, while Luigi has more linear approaches and tools. Any opinions on who is stronger are welcome.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

1.) Customs-on is an acknowledgement that the core roster isn't enough. It's an explicit admittance that the core roster of 50 characters isn't good enough and not interesting enough. It de-legitimizes the game. This is a problem because

2.) Customized gameplay is bad for the long-term health of the community. Smash isn't Skyrim; Melee didn't need mods. Project M was an acknowledgement that Brawl isn't a very good game, that gameplay needed to be spiced up, and now is fighting to remain in tournaments and has faced numerous setbacks this year. Smash has always struggled for relevancy; I don't think customs are going to be welcoming to outsiders, because

3.) There isn't in-game support for customs. Customs are not permitted when playing "With Anyone" and For Glory does not allow for customs. This is probably the biggest reason I am opposed to customs. The next biggest would be that

4.) Permutations of characters will number in the thousands. It's not simply a question of how many new moves would come into the game. It's that there would be an enormous number of permutations of movesets. You wouldn't just be preparing for Mario, you'd be preparing for twenty Marios, the one withh Fast Fireball and Shocking Cape, and the one with Shocking Cape and Scalding Fludd, and the one with customs on in every slot, etc. The roster is 50 (51? I always mix it up) and I believe there would be thousands of different possible character loadouts, but I haven't done the math, and I admittedly and am not sure exactly how many custom moves in total there are. Because of how many loadouts there would be,

5.) Extremely defensive play would become the norm. Imagine a third jump was added to Melee. Everything else remains the same, but now there is a third jump. Wouldn't that change everything? Because it wouldn't just be the single extra move that would matter, it would be how it would interact with other moves, with Fox's upair and Falco's dair and Ganondorf's bair and on and on and on. Of course. You already know this. So why do I have to explain that turning customs on would create for an unpredictable environment? When every opponent is a special little snowflake, defensive play is rewarded the most, and the campers stand victorious.
im really up set i spent a half hour replying to your post adressing your points and i accidentally deleted it all. T.T
6.) The game will not be balanced. It took just one tiny little interaction - Diddy's down-throw to upair - to cause the community to scream that the game was broken and needed patching to balance. And the core roster was extensively tested for balance! And now you're going to dump a massive additional movepool on the game and assume everything will be okey-dokey? When that movepool was never integrated with the core game, can only be used under special circumstances, and in fact requires unlocking? Kay...

I don't know if anyone watched Tourney Locator's Shockwave tournament last night, but there was an incredible amount of derping around, weird deaths, and cheese, and an air of "WTF was that?" dominated the stream. I guarantee customs are a turnoff to the tournament scene, which is why I don't support customs-on in tournaments.

im sad i deleted a really long post i had by accident. i though it was really gud.

 

[Saturn_]

im sad i deleted a really long post i had by accident. i though it was really gud.

You sad son of a *****.

 

[incrediblej]

Okay.

I'm trying to make up my mind between Mario vs. Luigi. Luigi's fireballs are better, but Mario's tilts are much more versatile and his combo game seems more fluid than Luigi, who seems to depend on throws to set up strings. Mario seems more improvisational, while Luigi has more linear approaches and tools. Any opinions on who is stronger are welcome.

Everyone (most) people say luigi is a high tier like as good as sonic rosa and pika high while mario is mid tier like toon link and such level of vharacters

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Everyone (most) people say luigi is a high tier like as good as sonic rosa and pika high while mario is mid tier like toon link and such level of vharacters

from what i know luigi and mario have been placed side by side in almost every tier list.

 

[incrediblej]

from what i know luigi and mario have been placed side by side in almost every tier list.

Well luigi has a higher skill roof/cieling
while mario doesn't and depends if its s matchup tierlist or a overall attributes kind of tier list

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well luigi has a higher skill roof/cieling
while mario doesn't and depends if its s matchup tierlist or a overall attributes kind of tier list

in all honestly do u actually think you can acuratly determine the higher skill cap between these two?

 

[incrediblej]

in all honestly do u actually think you can acuratly determine the higher skill cap between these two?

Not really where are all the luigi mains at and I've never seen a mario main on this board or one say they are show your sel we need you guy's expertise

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Not really where are all the luigi mains at and I've never seen a mario main on this board or one say they are show your sel we need you guy's expertise

ah i just wanted to be sure you were not gunna bite your own words later.
i can't really say either but i but i know ally's mario is somthing special.

 

[Disgaea D2]

Olimar isn't considered bad anymore. He's generally considered high-mid or so now. Zelda is the other character generally thrown around when bottom tier is being discussed. Not sure about Wii Fit but I think they're generally considered mediocre on default but pretty solid with customs. G&W isn't THAT bad but he's kind of weaker than most of the rest of the cast. Customs do give him a legit projectile and a reliable Side-B so he's more viable there but still not great. He's nowhere near Brawl Ganon levels of bad though. No one is. He's not an optimal character for tourney play but you can do just fine with him at lower levels of play.

Thanks I could challenge you on the Wii U version. I'm a G&W main (Never entered tournaments and this character I get better results than most) and I suck at smash, can you give me tips?

 

[TriTails]

Okay.

I'm trying to make up my mind between Mario vs. Luigi. Luigi's fireballs are better, but Mario's tilts are much more versatile and his combo game seems more fluid than Luigi, who seems to depend on throws to set up strings. Mario seems more improvisational, while Luigi has more linear approaches and tools. Any opinions on who is stronger are welcome.

Where the hell do you get 'Mario's combo game is more fluid'? Luigi's combos isn't just about D-throw. It's also about U-tilt and N-air. And also, if you get the D-throw, you can pretty much freesytle your combos around. From 'Hoo phak phak' to combo, bouncing them with D-air, killing them with B-air and N-air, as well as catching them with U-air, to killing them with Luigi Cyclone or FJP. Missile if you're real.

That said, Mario has better mobility and edgeguarding... but I think that is about it. Luigi has better combos, damage output, killing options, recovery, better tools (I'd argue Luigi's Fireballs are better and Cyclone having more uses than Cape or FLUDD), slightly better range (Except F-smash), faster attacks, and the lists goes on... Mario mains, please add me something if I'm missing something.

I do believe both Mario and Luigi are both grab-reliant. Almost every Marios I face play the same way:

Fireballs party, grab, D-throw, a million times U-tilts, Fireballs, grab, B-throw, F-air spike, does the taunt where he takes off his hat.

Though, I haven't seen Ally, so yeah...

I do believe Luigi is the better brother, but I myself don't main Mario. But... that"s what people say anyway. Mario himself is a great fighter in SSB4.

 

[Pazx]

Honestly if a Mario could land more than a single utilt without resetting to neutral/getting hit on a Luigi I'd be astonished. Luigi's combo game is better.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Honestly if a Mario could land more than a single utilt without resetting to neutral/getting hit on a Luigi I'd be astonished. Luigi's combo game is better.

this was never an agrument
mario just has really strong mobility specs and kill options
and his combo game is very effective as well.
put customs into the equasion and mario is the better character imo

 

[webbedspace]

*sees footage of a 63%-damaged-Jigglypuff dying to a 102%-damaged-Diddy's up-air* I'm just gonna call that matchup 90:10.

 

[TriTails]

mario just has really strong mobility specs and kill options
and his combo game is very effective as well.

Strong kill options and combo game is very effective

Strong kill options

What.

And also, I have heard Mario's U-tilts combo can be escaped quite easily unless you are someone like Ganon. All he has is D-throw to SJP really, and that only racks up 17% damage.

Compare that to Hoo Phak Phak and you get 24%. Get a chaingrab 30%. Get another Hoo Phak Phak 48%.

Or D-air chaingrab.

I maybe missing some Mario combos, but I don't think he can win against Luigi combo-wise.

 

[TheKing!]

I recently played my cousin who was absolutely horrible at first and then after picking mario I saw a significant increase in his skill level as he continued to main him for the rest of the matches we had throughout the day. It seems every character I try doesnt seem to shake him up a bit. Is mario buffed in this one to the point where he's too well rounded or are there a couple of characters that can conquer the beast mario is?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What.

And also, I have heard Mario's U-tilts combo can be escaped quite easily unless you are someone like Ganon. All he has is D-throw to SJP really, and that only racks up 17% damage.

Compare that to Hoo Phak Phak and you get 24%. Get a chaingrab 30%. Get another Hoo Phak Phak 48%.

Or D-air chaingrab.

I maybe missing some Mario combos, but I don't think he can win against Luigi combo-wise.

HE CAN'T! 3rd time saying this. mario does not beath luigi in terms of combo's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5475ynpa5U&index=8&list=PLe5nQdhHqwUVxX_kgRxIZzo3jfV2l8uHG
ally is proably the best mario there is but this is worth a look.

also i don't know if u have been living under a rock but mario's up smash is god tier anti air, low lag and best early kill option.
im also not arguing that mario is better than luigi im just saying they are more than likly very close to each other

 

[TriTails]

HE CAN'T! 3rd time saying this. mario does not beath luigi in terms of combo's
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5475ynpa5U&index=8&list=PLe5nQdhHqwUVxX_kgRxIZzo3jfV2l8uHG
ally is proably the best mario there is but this is worth a look.

also i don't know if u have been living under a rock but mario's up smash is got tier anti air, low lag and best early kill option.

Watching later because I'm on my Android.

And U-smash is a kill move. Kill options are like Fox's jab -> jab -> U-smash or Diddy's Hoo Hah. Kill options are how you set up a kill move, while kill moves are moves that kills at reasonable percents.

Oh, and Luigi also got that U-smash. Invincible head baby! But neither of them are actually safe on shield.

That said, Mario's kill options that I know is just only D-throw -> F-air, and that only works at specific percents (95-110%) and is situational. Compare that to Luigi and you'll see a whole different levels with his D-throw.

Mario isn't lacking in kill moves or kill power, he lacks good kill options. He cannot secure a KO easily like the likes of MK, Fox, Diddy, or Luigi can.

Though, I am curious about that video. I think I'll watch it in my laptop once I get my studies done.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Watching later because I'm on my Android.

And U-smash is a kill move. Kill options are like Fox's jab -> jab -> U-smash or Diddy's Hoo Hah. Kill options are how you set up a kill move, while kill moves are moves that kills at reasonable percents.

Oh, and Luigi also got that U-smash. Invincible head baby! But neither of them are actually safe on shield.

That said, Mario's kill options that I know is just only D-throw -> F-air, and that only works at specific percents (95-110%) and is situational. Compare that to Luigi and you'll see a whole different levels with his D-throw.

Mario isn't lacking in kill moves or kill power, he lacks good kill options. He cannot secure a KO easily like the likes of MK, Fox, Diddy, or Luigi can.

Though, I am curious about that video. I think I'll watch it in my laptop once I get my studies done.

Mario's sliding u smash combined with his speed makes it such a minimal read for a kill its rediculous. trust me watch the vid later and you will see what i mean. luigi can't use u smash to the same abillity as mario plus its weaker. (not thats its not good on luigi)

And what u described are kill set ups. a kill option is simply an option that can be used to kill effectivly.
ally legit got 90% of his kills with u smash alone.

 

[TriTails]

Yo, Luigi's U-smash is stronger than Mario's. It's just it's wierd angle makes it harder to kill (Diagonally rather than straight up).

I do believe Luigi slides father when doing a sliding U-smash sir, because traction. But oh well, he is slower.

 

[Nocally]

I recently played my cousin who was absolutely horrible at first and then after picking mario I saw a significant increase in his skill level as he continued to main him for the rest of the matches we had throughout the day. It seems every character I try doesnt seem to shake him up a bit. Is mario buffed in this one to the point where he's too well rounded or are there a couple of characters that can conquer the beast mario is?

If you can zone Mario out with your attacks and not get in a gimp situation, you should win against Mario. Beating Mario is more about your playstyle than character specific traits you can exploit against him (which you still should of course)

 

[Luigi player]

Luigis usmash also hits in front of him where Mario would miss. Definitely feel like Luigis usmash is better. But Marios does seem to work great for itself. Generally usmashes seem to be really good this time around. With partial invincibilities or great disjointedness & really strong.

 

[TriTails]

Do anyone here think Mario's F-smash sourspot hitbox is actually bigger than the sweetspot?

I kept hearing the smacking sound (When you hit the sweetspot, it'll produce a fire sound) when I use it, or if Marios use it at me. I mean, yeah, it just barely weaker than Luigi's F-smash, but still... I generally find this a disadvantage, Mario's F-smash is supposed to kill earlier than that. And it comes out on F16 while having the same power as F12 F-smash... Hitting the sweetspot ain't easy.

 

[FlareHabanero]

Do anyone here think Mario's F-smash sourspot hitbox is actually bigger than the sweetspot?

I kept hearing the smacking sound (When you hit the sweetspot, it'll produce a fire sound) when I use it, or if Marios use it at me. I mean, yeah, it just barely weaker than Luigi's F-smash, but still... I generally find this a disadvantage, Mario's F-smash is supposed to kill earlier than that. And it comes out on F16 while having the same power as F12 F-smash... Hitting the sweetspot ain't easy.

That's normal for Mario. Unlike the other forward smashes, you need to angle and distance yourself ahead of time so the explosion itself connects. It's not as lenient as it was in Melee, but it's still better then Brawl's version.

 

[Castell]

Well since we're discussing Mario vs. Luigi and I happen to main both a fair bit: I say right now, Luigi > Mario. With Customs, maybe a bit more equal.
Luigi:
+Higher Damage per hit. Mario deals an average of 9% on his moves and his main combo-moves are uptilt and up-air, each dealing only 7%. Luigi Aerials alone out number Marios, Nair 8%->12% Fair slow 14/12%-> Double slap chop=18% Upair 7%->11% Dair multi hit doesn't even combo properly 10%-> Single hit easy to spike 10% Bair 11%->12% plus kills way earlier than Mario.
+Better D-Thrown. You can do basically anything out of D-throw. Fair chains, Hoo Slaps, Dair chains etc.
+Better Fire ball, very little lag behind it. You absolutely can use Luigi's fireball in close range while Mario's has so much more end lag to it. Luigi can do fireball, run behind and grab far more reliably than Mario can.
+Actual Kill set-ups. Mario has no kill set-ups. Technically at specific percents can can combo D-throw->Up-air->Fair but that's about as reliable as Falcon's combos into knees in this game. And once the opponent reaches +100% Mario's D-throw is worthless. Meanwhile Luigi has constant follow ups out of D-throw that kill, from low to high percent. Dair, SJP, Cyclone, and Nair(why does that kill?)
+Better Smashes. F-Smash comes out earlier and kills earlier than a sourspot Mario F-Smash, but the speed matters more as Luigi's damage is so much higher. Upsmash has a bigger hitbox in front of Luigi. D-Smash is roughly the same.
+Better Recovery. Perhaps this only matter on 3DS with the larger stage boxes, as it seems on Wii U any character can come back from getting knocked off as long as they have their double jump and recovery (exception of Little Mac of course). But even then, with only Gust cape actually giving Mario lift, Mario has the worse recovery. Luigi does have to do his recovery in a specific manner but I swear, Super Jump Punch for both of them have ridiculous ledge sweet spots.
Mario:
+Better Mobility, on ground and in the air now thank god. I feel like I can actually chase people compared to Brawl Mario.
+Marginally better edge-guarding. Luigi can go off stage more thanks to his combination of Cyclone plus Up-B. Mario does have safer options with FLUDD and cape.
+Cape as a reflector. Some people have pointed out that Luigi's terrible traction and airspeed means he can be easily walled out by projectiles. Personally I don't think it's that big of a deal, but I was running out of ideas.

This doesn't look so good with Mario. As a match up, I think 55:45 for Luigi. better fireballs means Luigi can space better. Luigi kills earlier and racks up damage better. Mario can't really edge guard Luigi better than Luigi edge guards him as FLUDD only works when people try to recover high and no Luigi recovers high.

Now with Customs on hand, Luigi gains an even better recovery with the Recovery Tornado. Mario gets Luigi's fireballs, slightly faster but only dealing 1-2%. He gains an even better game for Edge-guarding with Gust Cape, the windbox is so strong hit anybody offstage and they just get sent zooming into the stage box. High-Pressure FLUDD is a mixed bag for me, as it pushes Mario back when used at full charge, meaning it's more difficult to get the crucial Cape follow up to seal the deal. Explosive Punch gives Mario a 21% up-B that he can easily combo into from anything and from any percent, D-Throw->uptilt->Up-B for a quick 32% Can deal more with up-airs/dairs and Dtilt->Up-B works extremely well across the board. However it destroys his recovery. Honestly there's some very good reason why the Mario Mains on his thread aren't too positive towards him.

 

[TriTails]

The bros' D-smash are completely different. Mario's a semi-spike while Luigi's sends enemies diagonally upwards. Though, the speeds of those attacks are great.

I don't think any Luigi will switch out the original Cyclone. If he want to buff his already great recovery, there is always Floating Missile. That said, Gust Cape's windbox is outright insane. Explosive Punch is great for damage, but limits Mario's already poor and gimpable recovery. Haven't unlocked his Fireballs yet, and I don't pay much attention on FLUDD customs. I remember that there is a customs that deals damage, and then there's a stronger pushbox (I think?).

Oh and also, I'd argue Luigi doesn't get walled out by projectiles. His Fireballs has high priority (6% of damage, means it will clank out 15% or less damage projectiles) and so does Luigi Cyclone. He himself doesn't struggle against the likes of Samus or Duck Hunt.

Projectile campers that he struggle with is probably only Villager (Well, @ NairWizard said this MU is even) and Mega Man (Because grabs) and maybe Pac-Man (Any words @ NairWizard ? Sorry if the tags bother you). Though, it'd be nicer if he had better airspeed, but it's Luigi, and it's okay.

However, Mario's mobility are no slouches. Seriously, how does a fat plumber moves so fast than his thinner brother is beyond me. He can outspeeds most of the cast in the air quite easily. And he also has some combos going for him. He is also an edgeguarding expert with Cape and FLUDD, assuming the latter doesn't backfire and sends enemies upwards. He has legit answers against most if not all the cast with his Cape and mobility.

Though, his damage output is poor (Around the levels of Sheik to middleweights), and his range is one of the worst in the game. So his offensive ain't too threatening aside from how fast his attacks comes out. His disability to crawl also hurts him in some MU (Luigi can crawl undermeath Fox's Blasters and Diddy's Monkey Flip), but his ability to wall jump buffs his recovery a bit.

Though, he tends to has better MUs. In Zelda boards Mario has 55:45 advantage while Luigi is even. In Jiggly boards Mario has 55:45 advantage shile Luihi is 40:60 disadvantage. In Mega boards Mario has 45:55 disadvantage while Luigi flunks out to 30:70 disadvantage...

Yeah, maybe that is why he doesn't so far away from Luigi despite he is slightly worse (But still high tier! Don't get me wrong! Mario is an amazing fighter!).

Welp, another wall of text.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Though, he tends to has better MUs. In Zelda boards Mario has 55:45 advantage while Luigi is even. In Jiggly boards Mario has 55:45 advantage shile Luihi is 40:60 disadvantage. In Mega boards Mario has 45:55 disadvantage while Luigi flunks out to 30:70 disadvantage....

You could probably sum this up as "nobody really knows what they are talking about" ( in terms of tiers/ match up charts). Everybody underated Luigi when the game first came out. Even moreso with Olimar. These dudes where placed near the bottom of most tier lists, a few months back. No ONE person can tell (out of the 51 characters) who is better than whom, since everyone has bias/ hasn't seen the most of every character/ fights people at different skill levels/ can't comprehend the complexity of creating match up charts. Those match ups don't make any sense (most notably the Jiggilypuff ones), and I seriously doubt the community can accurately picture realistic MU charts.

Just go back a few hundred pages, and you'll see how the Mario bros and DK and Olimar and Diddy etc have changed in public opinion. Nobody can predict the future, and underating characters will just result in an other sleeper character beating up everyone at a major tournament- like Dabuz did with Olimar.

Last month people brought up ROB and Ganondorf, and some dude said the MU was in Ganon's favor because ROB can't kill nor bring up damage, can be juggled, and his projectiles can be shielded. This dude has a bit of merit in the community, so the argument was called at that- there wasn't any point in arguing if nobody was willing to back me up in the "ROB has kill moves and his projectiles are good" argument. I would just be repeating myself if continued to argue. There are things that I have done that I haven't really seen ROB mains do (the ROBs I have seen don't gyro snipe). (The Ikes I have seen have never done a pummel-> grab release-> jab combo (which might be an interesting litte thing to test)). But the dude who was arguing for Ganon, despite knowing very little about either character, said that Ganon won the fight. Yes- Ganon (in the right hands) can do some great things. My little brother mains Ganon, and I have had my fair share of losses against him (as my main ROB, perhaps not nearly that many). But I am thoroughly convinced that this guy didn't know what he was talking about. I'm pretty sure nobody here knows what they are talking about.

 

[Antonykun]

On this when I said who dont have game changers I meant there isn't much that will change in their game plan soon and make them more viable

And the ones we need to talk about we barely say anything about them even though we know they are viable and possibly good characters or have potential and @ Road Death Wheel thank you for pointing out I put lucario in the wrong spot

Well as far as I know Tlink having the best item to throw and Peach's floats are both so hugely unexplored that just them actually mastering those mechanics would probably make them more viable. Its sort of like mastering MA or BF

 

[Nocally]

You could probably sum this up as "nobody really knows what they are talking about" ( in terms of tiers/ match up charts). Everybody underated Luigi when the game first came out. Even moreso with Olimar. These dudes where placed near the bottom of most tier lists, a few months back. No ONE person can tell (out of the 51 characters) who is better than whom, since everyone has bias/ hasn't seen the most of every character/ fights people at different skill levels/ can't comprehend the complexity of creating match up charts. Those match ups don't make any sense (most notably the Jiggilypuff ones), and I seriously doubt the community can accurately picture realistic MU charts.

Just go back a few hundred pages, and you'll see how the Mario bros and DK and Olimar and Diddy etc have changed in public opinion. Nobody can predict the future, and underating characters will just result in an other sleeper character beating up everyone at a major tournament- like Dabuz did with Olimar.

Some of the changes from the patches changed peoples opinions on certain characters, The removal of vectoring and the re-introduction of DI made Luigi the combo monster he is now.

 

[etecoon]

Well as far as I know Tlink having the best item to throw and Peach's floats are both so hugely unexplored that just them actually mastering those mechanics would probably make them more viable. Its sort of like mastering MA or BF

A lot of Peach players in this game are veterans of Brawl and Melee, it's not like floating is a new mechanic. Maybe no super high level outliers like Zero or Ally maining Peach, but there's some experience with how to apply floating in a game like this

 

[HeroMystic]

Guys, guys, please.

Okay.

I'm trying to make up my mind between Mario vs. Luigi. Luigi's fireballs are better, but Mario's tilts are much more versatile and his combo game seems more fluid than Luigi, who seems to depend on throws to set up strings. Mario seems more improvisational, while Luigi has more linear approaches and tools. Any opinions on who is stronger are welcome.

Mario is more adept at chasing his opponent than Luigi is, therefore applying better pressure and having a strong presence. His mix-ups are also much better than Luigi's whom is somewhat linear. Despite that, Luigi's attributes give him a solid gameplan regardless of his lack of mix-ups.

Well luigi has a higher skill roof/cieling
while mario doesn't and depends if its s matchup tierlist or a overall attributes kind of tier list

That is undetermined at this current moment, though I will say Mario is a fundamentalist. As said in Melee, "He's a straightforward character who'll reflect the actual skills of the player." I believe Smash 4 does well in reflecting this.

Fireballs party, grab, D-throw, a million times U-tilts, Fireballs, grab, B-throw, F-air spike, does the taunt where he takes off his hat.

Mario shouldn't be spamming fireballs, honestly. U-tilt locking is overrated and actually pretty bad on anyone not named Falcon or a spacie. If U-tilt lock works on anyone else they're being bad.

Also Down Taunt >>> Side Taunt.

Honestly if a Mario could land more than a single utilt without resetting to neutral/getting hit on a Luigi I'd be astonished. Luigi's combo game is better.

Again U-tilt is overrated.

D-Throw > U-air > U-air > Up-B works on Luigi.
So does U-throw > U-air at low percents.
U-air > N-air also works.

But yes Luigi's combo game is better.

That said, Mario's kill options that I know is just only D-throw -> F-air, and that only works at specific percents (95-110%) and is situational. Compare that to Luigi and you'll see a whole different levels with his D-throw.

That's called Kill set-ups, not kill options.

Mario will get the majority of his kills from tech-chase reads, which is extremely plausible thanks to Sourspot N-air and B-air.
D-throw > Charged U-Smash from air dodge reads are legit, especially on fast-fallers. If you predict they'll jump, you can just U-air and either Up-B (which can kill under the right circumstances) or F-air which is a true combo if U-air isn't stale.

D-air > U-Smash is a true combo. So is D-air > D-Smash.

Beyond that, Mario is great at gimping and picks up the slack from his lack of solid kill moves. The problem with his set-ups is the majority of them are percent-specific and rage messes that up.

The set-ups Luigi, Diddy, Fox, and MK have are a luxury.

Luigis usmash also hits in front of him where Mario would miss. Definitely feel like Luigis usmash is better. But Marios does seem to work great for itself. Generally usmashes seem to be really good this time around. With partial invincibilities or great disjointedness & really strong.

From datamining:

's U-Smash:
- Damage: 14%
- Knockback Growth: 94
- Base Knockback: 32

's U-Smash
- Damage: 12%(Sourspot); 14%(Sweetspot)
- Knockback Growth: 98
- Base Knockback: 35

In terms of raw KO power, Luigi's is stronger. However the angle it sends his opponent makes it way easier to survive through DI than Mario's (Kill moves that send you straight upward are minimally affected by DI). In which case, I'd say Mario's is trivially better and his moveset makes better use of it, but the difference is Luigi doesn't have to rely on his like Mario does.

 

[Smog Frog]

yo can i just say that 2122 mii brawler is ezpz top 5

 

[oldkingcroz]

I'm aware of the patches. But it's just funny how popular opinion changes over time. Check out page 8 and 9 of this thread. There's some interesting Mario & Luigi discussion there. Their consensus is: because Mario didn't get buffed, he is the same as his Brawl incarnation. Notable quotes include Doc>Mario because of the slight increase in bair damage and Luigi plays like Ganondorfi.

"Zelda clearly has it better than Luigi because she has stronger footsies, and is both safer and more reliable at creating land trap situations that can kill. Especially considering Zelda's recovery is no longer below average, and that her Up-B is also a good escape for resetting the situation to neutral. Zelda hits hard, and survives relatively long. Neutral game is still difficult due to low mobility, but decent footsies can compensate."
~A2ZOMG

"Sorry to bandwagon with everyone else, but I still think the worst character is Mega Man. He's just not an effective zoner to me. Fun, but not great."
~Yonder

(on Luigi)
"He's definitely not good in neutral, but he's less vulnerable than Ganondorf overall, and he IS able to kill respectably early on a read. He NEEDS to powershield to land his better KO moves reliably, but given how much reward he gets from it, his raw KO potential is something that can't be discounted completely."
~A2ZOMG

"I'd have to agree with the Mario analysis but I don't think he should be UNDERRATED either. In this game I imagine he'll be mid, mid-low, and Doc won't be far from that either. I guess that was the idea with Mario though..."
~TTTTTsd

" If I had to pick a worst character right now I'd have to go with Luigi."
~Gheb_01


Note- this is on the course of 2 pages, when the game first came out. The Meta is changing, both phyiscally via patches and through popular opinion. Patches didn't really affect Mega Man or Gannon, but the community's opinion sure did. That's why I don't think anyone's current interpretation of MUs/ tierlist is anywhere near correct. The meta is constantly changing.