Character Competitive Impressions

[Deathcarter]

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That's how I personally see things for now.

While we hardly need more tier lists, I do appreciate that yours doesn't have something like seven or more different tiers or something stupid like that. Its a little pet peeve of mine but I feel that if someone has to make their own private very likely inaccurate tier list, they might as well streamline it with a lower number of more broader tiers; having more than like five always comes off to me as trying too hard. Just my personal opinion.

As for the placing of some characters...............I'd prefer to not risk opening Pandora's Box and derailing discussion.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

What is Villager OOS nair.

I'll take what OOS options for 800, Alex.

and if I recall Jump squat is 6 frames? So you are correct, but this means 2 options of Jab vs Nair of reliable punish to attacks like Kirbys nair, spacing not considered.

 

[Kofu]

Correct me if wrong.
"Let's say you hit someone on frame 4 of their shield, so it isn't a power shield.
You hit them with a 10 damage move which is about 6 frames of shield stun." ~ Shaya.

Kirby vs Villager.
Kirby has 10 landing Lag on Nair. His fastest action is frame 3 Jab, hits tilts come out either on frame 4 or 5 depending on the move. His grab is frame 6.
Villagers fastest option is Jab as well. Hits tilts come out from 8 or later, and his grab is frame 14.
From what I understood of Shayas earlier chart Shield stun ~10% damage is around 4-5 frames of shield stun.
Then we're looking at Villager going 5 frames of Shield stun, 7 to shield drop next attack 3 or 8 frames later, that or he Grabs.
Eg. 15 (jab), 19 (grab), 20 (tilt) Frames in total between Kirbys Nair and an incoming attack. Off a SHFF then, does Villager really punish Kirby in any meaningful way OOS, given the state of Villagers jab? You can eat quite a few of those jabs and be relatively fine given the alternatives.

As far as the relevance to Competitive Impressions. It's 1) To bring up Villagers CQC options OOS relative to the cast 2) Bring up the Air-Ground transition of Kirby, and how X-matchups may not be so problematic for him given his frame data.

Partially given that we all agree so far that Kirby just can't approach, as a result of a) being spaced out b) Safe options.
Granted tether/tetherish Grabs have been poor in that respect in general but food for thought.

NAir OoS is a good option too (thanks Locke 06!) since, including the jump time, it hits on like frame 12. It's like a mini Ness NAir which is never bad. NAir might hit on about the same frame as grab but it's generally a superior option since you have mobility while using it and you don't commit to the move for a whole second afterward. But good analysis, it kind of shows a) why Villager needs a better grab and b) how Kirby wrecks Villager once he gets in on the ground. The MU would probably be even or close to it if Villager had to approach at all. But as it stands, that's Kirby's prerogative.

On that note, do you think Kirby really loses hard to anybody or are his MUs mostly just even or 4:6 like Brawl Bowser (ignore his Dedede MU for the sake of this)?

EDIT: what is a jump squat? Is it the time it takes to duck after landing a jump?

 

[Locke 06]

If jump squat is 6 frames, then yes. Since Nair comes out before tilts, it's another option. I don't know the frame data for it, so I'll trust you on the numbers. But also you have this to consider when talking about aerials and frames: Are you hitting his shield at the very last moment before you hit the ground, or are you hitting it closer to waist/chest height of your opponent? This is very important and what makes Rosalina one of the more dangerous jump in characters with AC luma aerials.

Edit: jump squat is the time it takes to get airborne when you hit the jump button. Can someone confirm that it's 6 frames, because that's a nice piece of data to know.

Edit 2: Kirby has it tough against mega man due to less aerial mobility than jigglypuff and the need to be up close. He's a prime target for AAA utilt strategy along with being outranged by disjointed fair/BAirs. Also, since he doesn't have a fast vertical mid-air jump, rush gives his gimping game a problem. Kirby is near the top of my personal "best matchups against" list for Mega Man.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

NAir OoS is a good option too (thanks Locke 06!) since, including the jump time, it hits on like frame 12. It's like a mini Ness NAir which is never bad. NAir might hit on about the same frame as grab but it's generally a superior option since you have mobility while using it and you don't commit to the move for a whole second afterward. But good analysis, it kind of shows a) why Villager needs a better grab and b) how Kirby wrecks Villager once he gets in on the ground. The MU would probably be even or close to it if Villager had to approach at all. But as it stands, that's Kirby's prerogative.

On that note, do you think Kirby really loses hard to anybody or are his MUs mostly just even or 4:6 like Brawl Bowser (ignore his Dedede MU for the sake of this)?

Frame 12? That's more then we're expecting. I am under the presumption it'll be Frame 9 if not less, F13/14 due to shield stun.

My Offline experience is with Shulk and to a lesser extent Pit. My Kirby is the online warrior, which is why this is more theory craft then practice. I wouldn't be surprised if we see worse then 4:6, but it's too early to make that call.

Yeah... 6 not 9 in my name, Kofu.

If jump squat is 6 frames, then yes. Since Nair comes out before tilts, it's another option. I don't know the frame data for it, so I'll trust you on the numbers. But also you have to this to consider when talking about aerials and frames. Are you hitting his shield at the very last moment before you hit the ground, or are you hitting it closer to waist/chest height of your opponent? This is very important and what makes Rosalina one of the more dangerous jump in characters with AC luma aerials.

Absolutely, for these things to be possibly safe you have to land in very short windows after the attack, which I don't want to say is reliable. Just to look at options given low shield stun, low landing lags and quick activations.

 

[BlurZone]

I know its way too early for an actual tier list but as of now this is where I'd rank everyone(just my opinion I'm sure a lot of you will disagree)
S:
A:
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C:
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F:

 

[Deathcarter]

I know its way too early for an actual tier list but as of now this is where I'd rank everyone(just my opinion I'm sure a lot of you will disagree)
S:
A:
B:

C:
D:
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For heaven's sake, even Meta Knight in Brawl didn't get his own tier THIS early.

 

[BlurZone]

For heaven's sake, even Meta Knight in Brawl didn't get his own tier THIS early.

untill they release a patch, I believe diddy is the god character in this game

 

[MrGame&Rock]

For heaven's sake, even Meta Knight in Brawl didn't get his own tier THIS early.

We didn't enter Brawl with the mindset that someone would, but now we're more than willing to think of one character as the new MK

 

[Jabejazz]

Believe what you want, Diddy is nowhere near Meta(game) Knight.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

NAir OoS is a good option too (thanks Locke 06!) since, including the jump time, it hits on like frame 12. It's like a mini Ness NAir which is never bad. NAir might hit on about the same frame as grab but it's generally a superior option since you have mobility while using it and you don't commit to the move for a whole second afterward. But good analysis, it kind of shows a) why Villager needs a better grab and b) how Kirby wrecks Villager once he gets in on the ground. The MU would probably be even or close to it if Villager had to approach at all. But as it stands, that's Kirby's prerogative.

On that note, do you think Kirby really loses hard to anybody or are his MUs mostly just even or 4:6 like Brawl Bowser (ignore his Dedede MU for the sake of this)?

EDIT: what is a jump squat? Is it the time it takes to duck after landing a jump?

I'd say that Yoshi, Sonic, Link, Toon Link, Diddy Kong, Mega Man, Pikachu, Meta Knight and Marth/Lucina all give Kirby the most trouble. Greninja, Sheik, and Rosalina all used to be harder, but their nerfs make them loads easier for Kirby. It's mainly characters that force him to approach or have tons of projectiles or faster characters that can juggle him. I'd say that Yoshi is the worst because he's faster than Kirby, forces him to approach, and has more priority on all his moves. Those are all from offline except for Lucina, although I don't think she'd differ much from Marth other than killing potential.

 

[Peaches & Cake]

I know its way too early for an actual tier list but as of now this is where I'd rank everyone(just my opinion I'm sure a lot of you will disagree)
S:
A:
B:

C:
D:
F:

And where is jigglypuff?

 

[Kofu]

Frame 12? That's more then we're expecting. I am under the presumption it'll be Frame 9 if not less, F13/14 due to shield stun.

My Offline experience is with Shulk and to a lesser extent Pit. My Kirby is the online warrior, which is why this is more theory craft then practice. I wouldn't be surprised if we see worse then 4:6, but it's too early to make that call.

You're right, it is frame 9 including the jump. I was mixing it up with Ness's NAir which came out on frame 6 in Brawl.

If he's your online character I wouldn't mind getting some hands-on experience with the MU myself. Most of my games have been on FG and the Kirby players on there are... generally not optimal. A few have been good but I've gotten into the habit of using Game & Watch against them and using Judge against them when they use Stone (since 9s knock Kirby out of it, GG).

 

[Zauron]

Item tossing is the best attack in the game

Sorry to be an out-of-touch scrub but why is that, exactly? Is item tossing significantly better in this than in Melee (never really got into Brawl)?

 

[Locke 06]

Absolutely, for these things to be possibly safe you have to land in very short windows after the attack, which I don't want to say is reliable. Just to look at options given low shield stun, low landing lags and quick activations.

It's very rare to be frame perfect in that sense. You have to estinate how many frames you are from the ground and time your aerial so that it comes out at that exact frame before you hit the ground.

Even dairs have frames in between hits (this is an assumption like how multihit jabs are not 1frame per jab) so that hypothetical perfection isn't really worth considering IMO. Just too many variables, which is why spaced aerials > low landing lag aerials in terms of how safe on block they are.

 

[BlurZone]

Believe what you want, Diddy is nowhere near Meta(game) Knight.

Yup I will

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Yup I will

Diddy is nowhere near MK's level.

Smooth Criminal

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Diddy is nowhere near MK's level.

Smooth Criminal

Kong and Knight both are their second initial.

They both start with K, have an N, and have G as the fourth letter.

Also both have bad jabs.

Coincidence? I think not!

Spoiler

Kappa

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Metaknight in brawl is nothing like Diddy.

 

[The Twinkie]

What do you guys think about jigglypuff and where she'll fall on the tier list?

 

[Lavani]

Metaknight in brawl is nothing like Diddy.

I dunno, I can see the resemblance.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Quoted my list I posted the other day without comments for reference to my point of view. I will note though that my list isn't trying to make hard tiers, but just establish how I group characters as equals. There is room for some merging.

I'm surprised you have DeDeDe in the same tier as characters like Pit, Marth, Pikachu, and Peach. What makes you feel he is viable enough to warrant being in the middle of the cast? Likewise, how is Mario a Better characters then the 4 I just mentioned?

What makes you feel that there is such a huge disparity between Link and Young Link?

Why is Bowser the most viable of the heavies?

Not attacks, just curiosities.

Dedede is incredibly solid as a character, and definitely not 4th from the bottom. Here's why:

Incredible grab range, very strong throws with great followups
Extremely good tilt attacks, decent damage with massive range
Jab has been improved, jab 1 > jab 2 > dtilt is a thing, jab finisher is among the strongest (if not the strongest) in the game
Multiple jumps
Lives forever
Solid aerial game minus nair
Gordos are terrifyingly good zoning projectiles
Very good recovery, being able to sweetspot while ascending allows him to recover very low if he wants
Down smash is still incredible at tech chasing

His only weaknesses are his slow air speed (his running speed is greatly improved from brawl!) which does make him pretty campable and also his large frame

@ dean. did i miss anything?

Regarding Bowser, he's just another solid character who is definitely much better than say, Charizard.

The main selling points for Bowser is that he's extremely fast with amazing OoS options with grab (massive range) and Fortress. He also lives forever, his smash attacks/down b (aside from fsmash) are fast and kill quite early and he's the heaviest character in the game so he benefits hugely from the Rage mechanic. I can elaborate more if you want, but he's a solid upper mid/high tier character imo

 

[Jabejazz]

Thread is going places.

What do you guys think about jigglypuff and where she'll fall on the tier list?

Meh. People speak highly of her; she's being slept on, super good. I don't see it.
She has roughly the same kit she had in past iterations, which doesn't make me think she's deserving of a top/high spot. A decent mid tier probably. Haven't played her enough but seemingly bigger range on aerials make her better than what she was.

As a side note, I think Jigglypuff was much better in Brawl than what the tier list shows.

Dedede is incredibly solid as a character, and definitely not 4th from the bottom. Here's why:

Incredible grab range, very strong throws with great followups
Extremely good tilt attacks, decent damage with massive range
Jab has been improved, jab 1 > jab 2 > dtilt is a thing, jab finisher is among the strongest (if not the strongest) in the game Still slow af but legit nonetheless.
Multiple jumps
Lives forever
Solid aerial game minus nair Nair is good get out of my face
Gordos are terrifyingly good zoning projectiles THE BACKFIRE DOE
Very good recovery, being able to sweetspot while ascending allows him to recover very low if he wants
Down smash is still incredible at tech chasing

His only weaknesses are his slow air speed (his running speed is greatly improved from brawl!) which does make him pretty campable and also his large frame

Also the fact he gets combo'd super hard. It's an absolute trainwreck when Luigi gets a DThrow on you. Other than that I agree.
Definitely not bottom 5. Then again, I suppose it depends how you interpret a tier list. People using it as a metric for characters viability in a tournament setting, he's most likely in the lower end due to how polarized some of his matchups can be.

As a way to measure how a character deals against the rest of the cast, then I can understand a mid-ish placement.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I was not impressed by his nair, it's range is woeful.

Also smart gordo use 9/10 won't have it chucked back at you, I think it took Dedede players a week to realise you can't use it like Brawl Waddle Dee throw, lol.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

What's wrong with DDD's nair? Just curious, and from what I've played, Nair, Fair, and Up Air all seem very useful. (EDIT: Sneaky posts from Aero oooo)

How useful is his Dair and Bair (specifically, Bair compared to Fair)?

 

[dean.]

Dair is absolutely useless.

Nair is great. Range is lackluster but it's our only aerial sub 10 frames or something, only aerial without a mountain of end lag, hitbox lasts long time, can combo and can kill.

Bair is useful in that it's a lot more powerful than fair, and can autocancel in a short hop which fair can't. The way he swings his hammer (from down to up) also makes it better for catching opponents a bit above you than fair.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

aiight well so that makes dedede even better wheeeeeeeeee

 

[Jabejazz]

And yeah smart use of Gordo obviously won't get you punished. It's still a dangerous move to use for zoning purposes, people playing against Dedede overestimate this move pretty hard.

What's wrong with DDD's nair? Just curious, and from what I've played, Nair, Fair, and Up Air all seem very useful. (EDIT: Sneaky posts from Aero oooo)

How useful is his Dair and Bair (specifically, Bair compared to Fair)?

Nair is super good. SHFF Nairs are super potent, activates on frame 7(?) string into UTilt, can kill off the top the same way Wizard's Foot does when people chase you in the air and don't expect you to FF Nair. Not generally a move to use against other airborne opponents, but has its uses. I feel that's what Aero meant.

Dair is ass. Slow startup, wonky spike hitbox, sourspot does terrible damage for such a slow move and has a weird knockback.

Fair used to be a followup to DThrow, but due to changes to DThrow trajectory, it sees a lot less use, and we use UAir in most cases, which is alright, because UAir is beastly. Still a decent disjoint if we have to deal with aerials opponents, FFing it can be useful for grounded opponents.

Fair will generally see more use than Bair, so it's generally fresher, and a fresh bair kills off the side at 80% on average weight characters. FF Bair as an edgeguard is pretty ****in' amazing.

 

[The Twinkie]

Thread is going places.


Meh. People speak highly of her; she's being slept on, super good. I don't see it.
She has roughly the same kit she had in past iterations, which doesn't make me think she's deserving of a top/high spot. A decent mid tier probably. Haven't played her enough but seemingly bigger range on aerials make her better than what she was.

As a side note, I think Jigglypuff was much better in Brawl than what the tier list shows.

Actually I think she's much better. Her ground moves got buffed so her ground game isn't terrible. Her aerials have more priority now and her bair kills crazy early and she can wall of pain with fair. Her dair does good damage and auto cancels. Her Uair is good for strings and combos and can follow up into rest. Her rest got buffed. Even though it kills only like 10% earlier than brawl, the blast zones R bigger so killing at 50% is actually like killing at 30% in brawl. Sing is usable now. It's good for reading rolls and the opponent sleeps for longer. The active frames are longer too. I see her as high midtier.

 

[Lavani]

Dedede's grab range is pretty average in this game from what I remember. At the very least it's worse than that of other heavyweights like Charizard and Bowser.

Bair compared to Fair?

Bair is more damaging than fair (16% vs 12%), has actual kill power (130% vs 190ish% against Mario from center of FD), I think starts earlier and definitely has less end lag/landing lag. Bair also autocancels from a shorthop while fair doesn't.

Also worth nothing that while fair's hitbox matches the animation (swinging from above Dedede's head), bair's seems focused directly behind him and can hit opponents that are well above the hammer at the start of the swing.

 

[Browny]

Diddy to me feels like he is basically being forced into being top tier because top players believe he is broken and so are playing him all the time.

That doesnt mean he is. Im sure if people legitimately believed that Rosaluma had unlimited potential with smart use of Luma for all sorts of combos and edgeguards and dedicated all their time to her, she would be overused and winning tournaments too. I guess in other ways he reminds me of melee sheik. She was basically forced into being top tier because of how broken she was on the surface but over time it became apparent that her potential was quite limited. When was the last time a sheik won a big melee tournament solo lol.

Diddy also reminds me of brawl snake. He looks OP on the surface coz he has auto combos that do too much damage and kills too early, just like snake. Then when people actually bothered to try and use other characters they found out that he wasnt so great after all.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Dammit guys, I need to say stuff about this character too. :v Stop beating me to the punch.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Twinkie]

You know it would help if top players played characters they call the "low tier" they probably R good just not explored enough

 

[Jabejazz]

Diddy to me feels like he is basically being forced into being top tier because top players believe he is broken and so are playing him all the time.

That doesnt mean he is. Im sure if people legitimately believed that Rosaluma had unlimited potential with smart use of Luma for all sorts of combos and edgeguards and dedicated all their time to her, she would be overused and winning tournaments too. I guess in other ways he reminds me of melee sheik. She was basically forced into being top tier because of how broken she was on the surface but over time it became apparent that her potential was quite limited. When was the last time a sheik won a big melee tournament solo lol.

Diddy also reminds me of brawl snake. He looks OP on the surface coz he has auto combos that do too much damage and kills too early, just like snake. Then when people actually bothered to try and use other characters they found out that he wasnt so great after all.

It's UMvC3 Wesker all over again.

I stand by that claim.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Dammit guys, I need to say stuff about this character too. :v Stop beating me to the punch.

Smooth Criminal

uh uh lemme think of something

ok!

on a scale of warlock punch to melee shine, how perfect is dedede?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

uh uh lemme think of something

ok!

on a scale of warlock punch to melee shine, how perfect is dedede?

And yeah, UMvC3 Wesker got downgraded real fast once people started figuring the game out.

Smooth Criminal

 

[The Twinkie]

Are there any professional jigglypuff mains that go to tournaments a lot?

 

[Hungry Wolf]

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[Trifroze]

Diddy isn't MK tier, but MK ended up being SS tier, not S. I'd say it isn't unthinkable to consider Diddy in his own tier right now considering how easy it is to pick him up and get very easy kills for anyone with good understanding of the game's fundamentals. This has been shown in several tournaments already. I'm by no means saying it doesn't take skill to play him, I'm saying that even without particular experience with the character you can use him more effectively than you could any other character with the same lack of familiarity. At the very least right now he shines because of that.

Also what comes to Ganondorf talk earlier, approaching is his only real problem (and bad recovery but I see that as a necessary downside). His uair is 6 frames and his bair, ftilt and dtilt 10 frames all of which kill at around 80-120% reliably. He also has a decent dash attack for mid range punishing as well as KOing and his ledgeguarding game is among the best in the whole cast with his reverse uair, stomp, bair and the choke. Someone said Ganon would be top if he was given any decent projectile. I agree. Regardless, there isn't anyone in the game who's better at what he does, so even though Ganon will probably be mid-low tier, he will definitely have a niche in some matchups. Some characters don't have even that.

 

[Jabejazz]

S:
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B:
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First post ever on Smashboards is a tier list in thread asking to not post tier lists.

Literally why.