Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[David Viran]

As for 2x uair to boost kick, never DI towards low platforms at 10-25% or high platforms at around 25-40%, and if you get grabbed near the ledge always DI towards the stage through the entire combo, except down after boost kick finisher. At the percents where the combo works it won't kill you, and at the percents where it would kill you you can escape by holding up during the entire boost kick.

Hmm, I remember it being said by @Lavani? in the mechanics thread that holding up does nothing to moves that hit at an angle of 80-100. IIRC all of the hits on boost kick hit at an angle between 80-100 besides the last hit.

 

[Mario766]

It wouldn't do much. Boost Kick has either 90 or 87 angle hits on all but the 6th and the final hit, the 6th hit is 366 and the final hit is 50.

 

[Trifroze]

Hmm, I remember it being said by @Lavani? in the mechanics thread that holding up does nothing to moves that hit at an angle of 80-100. IIRC all of the hits on boost kick hit at an angle between 80-100 besides the last hit.

Hit 6 of boost kick is the one that stops the opponent's knockback, and it's also one that hits at a different angle than the hits prior to that. Hit 7 is similar since it repositions the opponent in front of ZSS, but 90% of the time the opponent will pop out before that if they're to pop out at all. You could technically only hold up during hit 6, but if you know you're at the percents where you'll pop out of it, rather just hold up the entire time.

 

[Horseketchup]

So last night at Fatality Saga on 2GGaming, Ito's Meta Knight actually got 2nd and made it to gf's against Zero. Was impressed with his overall patient, calculated play, crazy seeing him beat guys like Cacogen, Fatality, Xzaz, and Falln. This is also coming a few days after Seibrick's Meta Knight beat Nick Riddle and took a set off of MVD's Diddy in gf's of the VSGC weekly.

Just seems like these are pretty significant results, as both of these guys I believe were playing solo MK through the whole tournament too. Taking sets off of some high level ZSS, Sheik, Fox, Falcon, Diddy, and Rosa mains, I think it says a lot about the potential of the character.

For these "Top 5" discussions nobody ever seems to bring up MetaKnight, but would it even be that unreasonable for him to be a top 5 character or very close? I would love to get more insight from MK mains about what you think about his potential, does he have too many bad matchups to be around that top 5 level? Is he just held back too much by his limited range and approach options?

Btw, just wanted to add this beautiful string that Ito did on Fatality last night:

http://oddshot.tv/shot/2ggaming-2015120621818588

 

[Dre89]

I don't see why people say Mewtwo has above average damage output. Only things I can see that are high damage are his aerials and a few throws. His ground game has average damage at best. When people talk about his high damage output, are they tlking about damage on-hit or just a high damage combo game

 

[Radical Larry]

Dre89 His Smash attacks deal good bits of damage.

 

[Dre89]

Dre89 His Smash attacks deal good bits of damage.

Yeah but do they have reliable set ups, because smash attacks aren't a reliable source of damage otherwise

 

[Skeeter Mania]

For these "Top 5" discussions nobody ever seems to bring up MetaKnight, but would it even be that unreasonable for him to be a top 5 character or very close?

@Amadeus9 seems to think that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah but do they have reliable set ups, because smash attacks aren't a reliable source of damage otherwise

Mewtwo has a good punish game. His tilts are fast and big. Plus, they almost always combo into an aerial. Dtilt-Nair-Bair is gaurenteed and deals 30%.

His tilts deal 5-10% which isn't that bad.

 

[Wintropy]

For these "Top 5" discussions nobody ever seems to bring up MetaKnight, but would it even be that unreasonable for him to be a top 5 character or very close? I would love to get more insight from MK mains about what you think about his potential, does he have too many bad matchups to be around that top 5 level? Is he just held back too much by his limited range and approach options?

MK strikes me as the kind of character that, right now and in the immediate sense, has nowhere to go but up. As MK mains perfect his combo potential and figure out more efficient ways to transition from neutral to advantage, I think his playstyle will be refined and his results will continue to improve. Discovering new ways to deal with his weaker matchups will no doubt help optimise his gameplan.

In the grand scheme of things and if especially if MK does become a more viable threat in the meta, other characters will probably figure out how to deal with him better and optimise ways to keep him out, so I'd say his development will eventually settle with him as a definitive upper-tier character. Considering the strides certain other characters have been making recently (Ryu just seems to be getting better as his gameplan is optimised and top Sheiks will continue driving her meta to breaking point and beyond if she isn't tweaked in future patches), it's difficult to say if he will make Top 5, but I'd say with the way he's going right now his future is very bright.

/ non-mk perspective, grain of salt is advised

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Do you think we can settle on a consistent Top 10?

 

[Trifroze]

Link confirmed for MK counter, can damage himself with bombs to cross the dash attack to death threshold

 

[kaz99]

I always see put in top 10

 

[Seagull Joe]

Do you think we can settle on a consistent Top 10?

The top 10 in no order are easy to figure out:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

The next five are like: , , , , and .

 

[williamsga555]

@TTTTTsd

Does d-throw→fair not work on Dedede? He's certainly a fast enough faller for it (and a big enough target), but does his weird gravity push him out of reach or something?

 

[ShadowKing]

what i always see at tourneys is]
1.(Most used list goes down in order)
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
Then a few mid/low tiers like

 

[J-Lit]

Currently I don't think there can be a consistent top 10 as long as villager exists.

 

[Nu~]

Top ten is relatively simple.

15-20 is where hell breaks lose.
And then you have people who still think villager is top ten for some reason.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Top ten is relatively simple.

15-20 is where hell breaks lose.
And then you have people who still think villager is top ten for some reason.

What holds villager back from top 10? Quick Nair, fast Jabs, slingshot, bowling ball, lloid, and Ranai reinforces his placing in my mind.

 

[Macedonian]

for real though villager has to many good results to not be considered top ten. granted much is off the back of raniai, but that argument can be made for many characters in the top ten

 

[Radical Larry]

Top 10 would be relatively simple and should never include Diddy Kong at this point in time and should never, ever include Roy whatsoever. Diddy Kong is 11-16 whereas Roy would be in the upper middle or lower high tier ranges at the least. Though...

I'm just going to put up a theoretical tier list of my own. These rank my tops all the way to my bottoms, and it's all my opinions and thoughts about said characters, as well as MU experience and tournaments with them. I will NOT be including the Mii Fighters this time around, since they are completely subjective to tier placements depending on weight class setups, and I'm not going through the hassle.

Spoiler

Reference Markers:
|---| - Spacing between each character determining their rank.
|/\| - Both or all characters that sandwich this are tied for said spot.

Viability Number: 1
Tier S:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Tier A:
Characters: |---||---||---||/\||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Viability Number: 2
Tier B:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||/\||/\||---||---||---||---|

Tier C:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Viability Number: 3
Tier D: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

The list is completely and utterly subjective and may not be accurate representations of what others believe said characters should be at in terms of tiers. I know that people may disagree with my placements, but hey, it's totally fine. Whether to be taken seriously or as comic value, it's something I'm just going to post until the next update/character release to see what may result.

If you have questions, please give them forward; need a character to be answered, please ask. Again, it's a theoretical outlook on what the tier list could end up becoming entirely in the long run without Cloud Strife in the game.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

There's just too much competition for the top 10 for villager to make the cut.

Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, MK, Ryu, Mario, Sonic, Pikachu, Fox, Diddy: there's no way you could call him better than any of them. And then he's in the section with Falcon, Ness, Yoshi, Ike, Peach, Pit, and Dark Pit for the next grouping, some would argue ROB and/or Luigi belongs in there as well. He's somewhere between 11th and 20th.

 

[Antonykun]

What holds villager back from top 10? Quick Nair, fast Jabs, slingshot, bowling ball, lloid, and Ranai reinforces his placing in my mind.

bad qcq range godawful mobility exploitable recovery really easy to open her up with actual top tiers

 

[ShadowKing]

Top 10 would be relatively simple and should never include Diddy Kong at this point in time and should never, ever include Roy whatsoever. Diddy Kong is 11-16 whereas Roy would be in the upper middle or lower high tier ranges at the least. Though...

I'm just going to put up a theoretical tier list of my own. These rank my tops all the way to my bottoms, and it's all my opinions and thoughts about said characters, as well as MU experience and tournaments with them. I will NOT be including the Mii Fighters this time around, since they are completely subjective to tier placements depending on weight class setups, and I'm not going through the hassle.

Spoiler

Reference Markers:
|---| - Spacing between each character determining their rank.
|/\| - Both or all characters that sandwich this are tied for said spot.

Viability Number: 1
Tier S:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Tier A:
Characters: |---||---||---||/\||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Viability Number: 2
Tier B:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||/\||/\||---||---||---||---|

Tier C:
Characters: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

Viability Number: 3
Tier D: |---||---||---||---||---||---||---|

The list is completely and utterly subjective and may not be accurate representations of what others believe said characters should be at in terms of tiers. I know that people may disagree with my placements, but hey, it's totally fine. Whether to be taken seriously or as comic value, it's something I'm just going to post until the next update/character release to see what may result.

If you have questions, please give them forward; need a character to be answered, please ask. Again, it's a theoretical outlook on what the tier list could end up becoming entirely in the long run without Cloud Strife in the game.

I wouldn't really put many characters in Stier because of the 3most dominating characters ZSS Rosa and shiek

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah but do they have reliable set ups, because smash attacks aren't a reliable source of damage otherwise

Usmash has a few setups involving jab and utilt.

Dsmash doesn't combo from anything, but it can be used pretty safely in neutral like Meta Knight's fsmash. It's damage is a bit low for a smash but the range and safety make up for it.

Fsmash is one of those "spacing" smashes, where the startup involving rearing back to potentially make the opponent misspace and then retaliate.

 

[Sonicninja115]

This game doesn't really have a top ten.

The best way to think of it is top 5 and then top 15. Even top 3 and top 15.

This is just because of the amount of power each character in Sm4sh has. Super viable in this game is almost as many characters as was in Melee, except Sm4sh is more balanced.

Top 10 is pretty errelevant, and after the next couple of character patches, top 15 might be as well.

Dre89 Mewtwo also has kill combos. Dtilt-Uair-Fair. This can also be started by confusion. Dthrow has a fifty/fifty. If you don't airdodge, Fair. If you do, Dair. This is a kill option at the ledge starting at 50%ish.

Plus kill throws and SB as well as disable.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

bad qcq range godawful mobility exploitable recovery really easy to open her up with actual top tiers

Doesn't her Nair help against an opponents assault?

 

[Radical Larry]

I wouldn't really put many characters in Stier because of the 3most dominating characters ZSS Rosa and shiek

Well, tier letters are completely subjective. Due to my OCD, I put the tiers into 5 because I absolutely adore categorization.
Nevertheless, if you want to, you can put the characters in any fashion you wanted to in their respective tiers. The top 4 could be the upper S tier, next four middle S and next 3 be lower S, and continue the formula for the next characters until you hit D, which are just the same ones.

I just put the characters in tiers because of how easy it is to actually categorize them within the list, and I'm hoping people would catch on because it would balance out how tier lists work and such. It's actually a very good, if not great method of putting your tiers in order. Since there are 55 characters in the game total, 5 tiers of 11 characters each would work wonders, and 11 tiers of 5 would also work quite well and probably toward your preference.

To each their own.
(When Cloud comes out, it'll have to be 7 tiers of 8 or 8 tiers of 7 for complete and utter balancing of how it's categorized.)

 

[ShadowKing]

Well, tier letters are completely subjective. Due to my OCD, I put the tiers into 5 because I absolutely adore categorization.
Nevertheless, if you want to, you can put the characters in any fashion you wanted to in their respective tiers. The top 4 could be the upper S tier, next four middle S and next 3 be lower S, and continue the formula for the next characters until you hit D, which are just the same ones.

I just put the characters in tiers because of how easy it is to actually categorize them within the list, and I'm hoping people would catch on because it would balance out how tier lists work and such. It's actually a very good, if not great method of putting your tiers in order. Since there are 55 characters in the game total, 5 tiers of 11 characters each would work wonders, and 11 tiers of 5 would also work quite well and probably toward your preference.

To each their own.
(When Cloud comes out, it'll have to be 7 tiers of 8 or 8 tiers of 7 for complete and utter balancing of how it's categorized.)

I understand but where do you think Cloud might place?

 

[LancerStaff]

Top 10 would be relatively simple and should never, ever include Roy whatsoever.

This ain't Reddit, man. Don't need to tell us that lmao.

On a more serious note, Sonicninja115 is right about keeping things restricted to top 10 being silly. If we have 15 characters clearly above the rest, we don't need to stick 5 into this intermediate category and bicker about it. I don't know about top 15 becoming irrelevant... But top 10 seems so right now.

 

[Seagull Joe]

what i always see at tourneys is]
6.

Why...

 

[ShadowKing]

Why...

I don't know I never ask but when I go to a tourney in my area I will find at least 5-7 people using Roy

 

[L9999]

Seagull's top 15 (order doesn't matter on the long run.

Then we get into the mess that is the mid tier, as not everyone plays all the characters at the same time...
Group 1: We call them good yet not top tier

Group 2: Did someone got high with X? And they do.

Group 3: Meh, just mid tier


Group 2 and 3 are constantly changing members due to different perceptions.

Then the characters people say are bad whether they truly suck or not.


Nice job everyone, no one cares tier.


My perception of the meta right now. My opinión, not the final word, disagree or comment if you want.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I understand but where do you think Cloud might place?

There's honestly no way to tell until he's released.

 

[Evello]

I don't know I never ask but when I go to a tourney in my area I will find at least 5-7 people using Roy

That's pretty much just a locals thing, since people can slay noobs with raw fsmashes and cookie cutter dthrow combos. It's the same reason you'll see many locals flooded with Captain Falcons and other fast, powerful characters who take a large amount of practice and know-how to exploit and defeat. Frankly, I feel like Yoshi fits this category as well, though he's a bit less conventional than my other examples. Still, you'll rarely see any Roys at the national level. Not saying he's terrible or anything, but nowhere remotely near top 10 in terms of viability at the national or even regional level.

 

[Ffamran]

A while back someone or someones - too lazy to check - said that ZSS's Boost Kick or she in general is broken. In my opinion, I don't think anything she has really is broken. This includes her Uair chains to Boost Kick or her Flip Jump spike setups. The reason for the latter is kind of simple: there aren't a lot of phenomenal spikes. By that, I mean spikes you can setup at least in a 50/50 way or confirm it somehow. The only ones I can think of are like Luigi and Ryu's which granted, theirs are at most frame 10 while every other spike outside of Lucina, Marth, Palutena, the Pits, and Villager are like frame +14 and even those 6 aren't capable of setting them up as far as I'm aware. Spikes and Dairs are pretty lackluster in this game (and pretty much the entire series) with the best spikes being the fastest and that's like 2, having a special quality like ZSS's Flip Jump allowing her cover ground and high up, lingering and disjointed like Rosalina's, or Zelda's which spikes regardless which if she couldn't late spike, would probably put her Dair with the rest. For Dairs in general, outside of the fast Dairs and maybe Zelda, there's only like Dr. Mario?, Fox, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Lucario, Lucas, Mario, Meta Knight, Mii Swordfighter, Pac-Man?, Peach, and Wario's. They're all fast and actually usable outside of reads which pretty much all spikes are to the point where other spikes that are faster or have ways to be setup just lends to their ability to function. I mean, why does Wii Fit Trainer's frame 20 spike even exist when it's barely stronger than and has less active frames for both the clean hit and late hit than Falco's frame 16 spike? Even with her better (aerial) mobility, she's not going to be able to use that unless she knows exactly where you're going to be off-stage and that goes for pretty much everyone else. Ryu? He'll just Nair to Dair you. Luigi? Still can Dair you out of D-throw with the right DI. ZSS? Flip Jump setups. They have ways to setup their spikes and it doesn't really matter when they have better options to just outright kill you. As great as Captain Falcon's Dair is because of his speed allowing him to get right next to you, if you air dodge, I'd rather Knee you and kill you rather than dealing with a chance you'll make it back.

For Boost Kick... This has no actual evidence since I don't know how hit stun and blast zones interact. I do know however, that in static stages, you can jump as high as you want and not SD. It's only with the sides and the bottom where if you pass the blast zone, you die. So, let's assume this idea that if you're in hit stun after being hit and and past the blast zone at the top, you will die, but if you're not, then nothing happens. Now, Shuttle Loop hits twice where the first hit doesn't really move you much, but the second hit launches you up. Boost Kick for all loop hits move you up. The problem is that ZSS is the third highest jumper in the game and by moving up, she's getting even more vertical distance and with how Boost Kick works, she's also pushing you higher up and closer to the top. Other multi-hit Specials with odd hit angles like Mario's Super Jump Punch and Samus's Screw Attack don't kill you like that way up top for various reasons like outside of special circumstances, Mario and Samus won't be high up, or their Up Specials aren't as strong; for their last hits, Mario's does 3% with 52 base and 145 growth and Samus's does 1% with 50 base and 240 growth to ZSS's 4% with 50 base and 220 growth, but that can be considered moot since ZSS can kill with the loop hits which let's attribute to this idea of hit stun and blast zone equals death. This idea goes into that since ZSS's Boost Kick sometimes does not connect properly and you're currently not getting hit, you're in hit stun and you are considered "killable" if you pass a blast zone. This is made worse by the hitbox involving ZSS's extended foot basically tipping you into the blast zone. That's the problem: ZSS's Boost Kick failing to connect causes what I believe to be an unintentional side effect of killing weirdly and extremely early when it happens.

The fix is this: make Boost Kick connect better. If you've read this far, you're either thinking I'm a complete moron, a loon, or I'm a masochist and/or sadist. Read on and note the details. We fix Boost Kick by making all the loop hits auto-link, all loop hits have angles of 366 or 367 instead of vertical angles of 87 on hits 2 to 5, a random auto-link on hit 6, and a random 290 or 90 hit angle on hit 7, like Little Mac's Rising Uppercut, Peach's Parasol, and Roy's Blazer which all consists of a launcher for the first hit, the loop hits, and the finisher. The idea is to have you be considered attacked and not fall out or "up", be considered "killable", and die. Mario's Super Jump isn't really going to kill you unless you happen to fail a followup with a high juggle and he SJP's you to death; Mario can't jump that high - how ironic - and SJP's not that strong compared to Boost Kick. Also, SJP failing to completely connect doesn't cause issues with how Mario moves; he goes more diagonal as the loop hits have hit angles of 74 or 90 - assuming that 74's the one where it fully connects - than ZSS's almost vertical 87. Samus can't also jump that high and while she moves strictly up, Screw Attack's also not that strong and its hitbox is much more compact than ZSS's. So, this doesn't really fix the issue where ZSS can kill you early if she succeeds using a Boost Kick up top. The finisher can't really go any lower unless you want it to be a 0 degree hit angle that sends people strictly forward to its current 50 degree hit angle. You could lower the damage from 4% to whatever, but I don't think damage and hit angles are the problem; I think the problem is the knockback growth probably should drop to at least 150 if we're letting it connect better.

Also, if we want to complain about Up Specials, I think Ryu's should be the primary concern when he can hit confirm to Shoryuken and kill you at 70% on the ground. Neither Meta Knight or ZSS can do that and they have to confirm more than just one move to kill you up top while being near up top. In theory, an optimized Ryu just needs one Utilt or Dtilt to kill confirm you with Shoryuken while ZSS would need to somehow setup her Uair which needs to setup her Boost Kick. The closest to what Ryu can do is (pre-1.1.0) Fox who could jab to Up Smash, but that doesn't kill until 30% later and Fox is in a more vulnerable position than Ryu if he whiffs since Fox is much lighter and Up Smash isn't exactly safe whiffed not to mention only his feet are invincible for the clean hit while Ryu's completely invincible on startup.

 

[Vyrnx]

Maybe there is something I'm missing with Marth, but he honestly just seems like a bad character that always gets lumped with mid tier. I'm actually pretty convinced he is solid low tier, but like I said I'm not all knowledgeable about him.

It's mostly that his advantage state is so underwhelming, grab game in particular. I don't feel threatened when I lose neutral to Marth. Maybe it's different for characters with exploitable recoveries, but I don't think edge guarding would make a big enough difference either. I don't feel threatened in the neutral either, so moral of the story... I just never feel threatened when I'm playing Marth. He sort of falls in this very narrow category of doing well against characters who can't break his spacing or characters who can't out zone him, which means he ends up struggling with a lot of characters. And not having a solid approach is IMO a huge detriment in Smash 4. It's like he struggles to get things going in the neutral and his advantage prevents him from ever really getting things going even if he wins neutral.

 

[J-Lit]

There's just too much competition for the top 10 for villager to make the cut.

Sheik, ZSS, Rosalina, MK, Ryu, Mario, Sonic, Pikachu, Fox, Diddy: there's no way you could call him better than any of them. And then he's in the section with Falcon, Ness, Yoshi, Ike, Peach, Pit, and Dark Pit for the next grouping, some would argue ROB and/or Luigi belongs in there as well. He's somewhere between 11th and 20th.

Ranai has the best results in Japan using only villager. It's one of those cases where there's one strong main and then representation kind of falls off after that. But it still shows that villager obviously has some good things going for him when played at a high level. Just because Ranai is the only one at that level doesn't mean he is some sort of god who inflates villagers tier placement. And I also don't see why there's "no way" villager is better than fox, or anyone else in the 5-10 spot.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was just about to ask this thread why was never considered a top 10 threat right now. People call Ranai Japan's ESAM, but he frankly does too well for to be top tier w/ only ESAM but can't. I know Villager does have actual weaknesses to me, but I find it super odd, that we don't take results from countries foreign to us less seriously than native results. America doesn't take as seriously as Japan does, and Japan doesn't take and as seriously as we do. Not to mention how well does in Australia. I can understand that this mild centrism on their home countries is part of human nature, but all you have to do is google "Ranai" and find an awesome villager player using his character at an optimal level. This is the main reason I'm so hyped for Genesis 3, so many players from all over the place are coming.

Or maybe my logic is flawed? Maybe our metas are just so radically different? But then again we are all playing the sme game though. I don't even know any more...

 

[Sonicninja115]

I was just about to ask this thread why was never considered a top 10 threat right now. People call Ranai Japan's ESAM, but he frankly does too well for to be top tier w/ only ESAM but can't. I know Villager does have actual weaknesses to me, but I find it super odd, that we don't take results from countries foreign to us less seriously than native results. America doesn't take as seriously as Japan does, and Japan doesn't take and as seriously as we do. Not to mention how well does in Australia. I can understand that this mild centrism on their home countries is part of human nature, but all you have to do is google "Ranai" and find an awesome villager player using his character at an optimal level. This is the main reason I'm so hyped for Genesis 3, so many players from all over the place are coming.

Or maybe my logic is flawed? Maybe our metas are just so radically different? But then again we are all playing the sme game though. I don't even know any more...

Small point, but Nakat has an amazing Pika as well. Esam has gone so far to say that Nakat's Pika is better then his, though Esam is still better fundamentally.