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hahaha.
ZSS is gonna get hella nerfed if we keep this up LOL. I've never considered her neutral average, it's really good, it's just hard against short characters, hardly a downfall considering only one of those short characters is really relevant, but it does keep her in check as far as I'm concerned. That being said, I expect adjustments, not cause I want them, but I know how this game works with patches, and it tends to happen. We'll see though.
Zannabluke
to continue your discussion tangent, I think Doc and the Marios are good secondaries for a lot of characters. The reason I say this is because they have decent MU spreads in the case of Mario and Luigi, in Doc's case he kills fastfallers really good and has a great air to ground shorthop game (which helps against Falcon). Killing Fox off a grab at like 80 is super awesome. He's good against PK Kids too since they can't inhibit your pills.
Pac is Monarch ControlCaution:Ffamran tier wall o' text ahead!!
To an extent, I do think the roster is quite fixated on individual mechanics or unique trait.
And I think that's what the dev's are trying to remedy in the form of patches. We've already seen countless changes to characters who's gimmicks were too polarizing (Diddy, luigi, rosa...), the pattern is there.
But is it a potential weakness...I would say that it depends on both the strength of the trait and the weakness of the other attributes of the characer. Luigi has awful mobility and terrible traction, but his reward was SO POWERFUL that it almost didn't matter. Pre patch Diddy was another example of a character who revolved around one powerful tool, but what made him stupid was the fact that the rest of his moveset wasn't weak enough to compensate. Even with his pre patch dash attack and jab, his moveset was oppressive all around. I see no problem with having an aspect that makes a characer unique however, it's fun to have diversity in the roster.
Funny you mentioned pacman because I was just thinking about something related to the topic at hand. Is pacman overly reliant on fruit/hydrant zoning? I think so, but only if he continues to be played the way Abadango and many others did/do currently.
He isn't being played to his strengths because well...Pac-Man is not a zoner. In fact, he's terrible at zoning and more people will realize this as time goes along.
Now before many of you unsheathe your keyboards and angrily explain how I am wrong, I want to explain why he isn't the characer we initially thought he was.
Unfortunately, many of us Pac-Mains have adopted a game of "set up a fortress and run" as a primary focus in nuetral. This goes against the natural strengths of the character. Pacman isn't a real zoner because fruit and hydrants aren't built for keeping people out. Fruit come out on frame 12, have an FAF of 45, 5 of them bounce off of shields which allow opponents to easily catch them, and they lose to most attacks when thrown. You can't dream of zoning an opponent out with data like this. Same with hydrant. Loses to any attack when launched, can be sent back to us by the opponent, and fast characters can straight up quantum tunnel right through it (man that is a dumb mechanic).
All of these flaws lead many pacman mains to lean heavily on gimmicky, complex, and all around situational setups to keep the opponent out. It became the bulk of our gameplan. It sort of covers up the flaws of his individual "camp tools".
But we've neglected our normals, our z drop game, our offensive game...we've put too much into one inefficient gameplan.
The way I see our fruit and hydrant tools is the same way I view spin dash. Spin dash is also misinterpreted as sonic's only gimmick. The famous "Spin2Win" strategy of FG newbies.
In reality, spin dash is a weak move when used this way. It loses to most attacks, can be punished by OoS aerials, disjoints give it hell...sound familiar? For sonic, spin dash is only meant to compliment his game play. It forces you to keep guessing sonic's next move and punishes you heavily for overextending and guessing wrong. Pac-Man's tools are the same way, but complement a different style of play.
It isn't zoning, it isn't rush down, it isn't bait and punish or hit and run... I don't know what it is called but he continuously forces you into trap situations with his tools that allow him to transition into a heavily damaging offensive game. An example of this can be how the trampoline is downright broken when used to limit options on the ledge, but rather weak when used against a rush down characer to slow down an approach in nuetral. We should have a free combo on the opponent when ever the trampoline launches them into the air instead of simply waiting on the other side and b-airing them back to the other side.
His normals are further proof of this. He was given average moves all around because his traps + better normals would have been too oppressive. His grab is trash because his z drop fruit pressure already handles it. Oh...and for some reason, fruit are indestructible when z dropped.
A better analogy for those of you that have played yugioh is that Pac-Man is like an Aggro/stun deck (my favorite type!)
Using stun as a means to limit all of your opponent's options so you can relentlessly beat them down. People are currently focusing too heavily on the stun aspect.
I know he brought it out to beat Dugan's Fox. 2-0 if I'm not mistaken.
Yup, just checked the VODs, he certainly did.
DJ to be exact.
Pretty sure people were unanimously rating her neutral 4/5 several months ago. When people say her neutral is average, it's likely within the context of a high tier character.
BURN THE HERETIC!!!!!
Isn't there such a thing known as adapting? That's what people had to do with Melee spacies and several Brawl top tiers (especially MK and ICs).
How doesZSS is gonna get hella nerfed if we keep this up LOL. I've never considered her neutral average, it's really good, it's just hard against short characters, hardly a downfall considering only one of those short characters is really relevant, but it does keep her in check as far as I'm concerned. That being said, I expect adjustments, not cause I want them, but I know how this game works with patches, and it tends to happen. We'll see though.
Anyways
The reason all three of the Marios are good secondaries on an efficient level as well is...well, they're all simple characters, really. Luigi is the easiest and the hardest is Doc by a slim margin because he has to play neutral a bit smarter than Mario and you have to throw in some more genuine recovery mixups than usual, but he kills fastfallers so hard that it's usually worth it when you pick him in the right matchup. They're all fairly strong secondary characters because of their simplicity, really.
kill at 80? Is that when Dthrow > Fair works? Interested.Against Dugan, Nakat, and Tweek.
What do you do about Nair> Down b? Uair>Uair>Up b at the top of the screen? Pray...?
is absurdly high for little risk most of the time. I wish her ability to get back on stage wasn't so easy and her recovery was somewhat hittable. The only two characters I've ever wanted nerfed were her and . The rest of the characters at least are reasonable in what they do (Other then pre-patch and some 3DS iterations of chars).
D-Throw > Fair works on Fox at...70% to 101% with no rage, usually kills at around 80-90% on low ceiling assuming their DI isn't PERFECT. It's not airdodgable, all you have to do is D-throw and follow their DI (which is usually outwards because nobody smart is going to DI in vs. Dr. Mario cause that's a silly idea and USmash would love to meet them if they're gonna try and land next to him, but hey, they could mix it up). Nairo landed it against Esam's Pika constantly, it's a true combo on the right weights. It doesn't work on semi-floaties or floaties, but fastfallers get true combo'd by D-Throw > Fair. If you're interested in ALL of the fastfaller %s I can drop them here, but that's Fox's range. The other reason D-Throw > Fair is amazing is because you'll NEVER stale Fair even unless you make a hard read prior, meaning you'll always net the freshness bonus which makes it do a scary 17% damage, and when you look at its knockback values....yeah, it's impressive.How does
Against Dugan, Nakat, and Tweek.
I'm curious, who do you think both Mario characters share a bad MU with? On top of that, is there a MU you think one or the other could cover for the other?
Ike loses solidly, but it's far from his worst MU nowadays. Recent patches have made Ike's jab much more viable while making Fox's less threatening.
Both are pretty bad vs. Rosa (Doc is worse in this regard but neither enjoy it.)
What about Ryu? Care to share your input with the Marios?
Forgot about him. Not good for either although Mario is more recommended here than Doc for...obvious reasons.
are there any vods of these?
I just remembered something: wasn't the Doc also good against fast fallers in Melee? Different reasons probably, but funny how it's still his shtick.
I've heard those who say it's in Mario's favor. Any reason you disagree?
Ryu's Range and ability to absorb Mario's best KO moves prevent Mario from winning the Ryu MU. It's certainly doable, wouldn't say it's in the realm of unwinnably bad, but I think it's in Ryu's favor somewhat.
Nair -> flip kick can be avoided by DI'ing the nair up. If ZSS wants to meteor you with flip kick she has to jump first to get the appropriate spacing, but it extends the action enough that you can airdodge the flip kick by the time she makes it to you.What do you do about Nair> Down b? Uair>Uair>Up b at the top of the screen? Pray...?
The reward for
Well, considering Sonic's easily DI'd Bthrow and Usmash were nerfed because everybody was DIing wrong...
I dunno, pre-patch Astaroth Canyon Creation (44 [ B ]) had some great utility, and I sometimes use Leixia 4B+K if I get a knock down in the corner
I wonder how you feel about others saying Mario wins it?
But they still killed you at 90
I don't get the up smash nerf, though.
I don't get why it was so strong to begin with.
Do you have a link to specific percents on all characters (A chart)? I'm looking into picking up
for some matchups like and (Some of 's more annoying matchups). I dislike using . He's so cookie cutter and boring.
All characters it works on (I pulled this from a vid, you can remove the floaties like Marth and such and just account for fastfallers, just subtract floaties from this and you're golden. Semi-floaties and floaties have to Airdodge to get away, they can't jump/throw an aerial IIRC)Do you have a link to specific percents on all characters (A chart)? I'm looking into picking up
https://youtu.be/Z63tK5Mlqds?t=62 This video does a good job of explaining how to land dthrow -> fair consistently (as well as other Doc things). He recommends memorizing the positioning to land it instead of %s.Do you have a link to specific percents on all characters (A chart)? I'm looking into picking up
