Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Dre89]

Or just give heavyweights the ability to reflect projectiles on powershield like in Melee. Maybe decrease their damage by x0.8 or x0.5.



Unless you're Ryu, or your opponent decides to block stomp specials, you are breaking nobody's shield in this game. And safe-on-shield aerial pressure is not a thing for these characters, new shieldstun or no.




You're only one good match with a decent player away from changing your mind.



Also, on my original point on shieldpush and stage control

https://youtu.be/TbeliMBiJEE?t=244

This is the kind of BS that just shouldn't happen. In any other game, Bowser would have been forced back off the stage. In this game, he just punishes and completely reverses stage control. It's pretty lame. All preference to the defender, none to the attacker.

Granted Ganon probably shouldn't have tried that, but still, its an option that he would have had in Melee/Brawl that was taken away. That match was filled with situations like those, where previously pressure would have been established but the defender just walks away and resets.

I'm not a good opponent away from changing my mind. Don't insult me by assuming I only think like this because I never have any issues playing heavies. I have to deal with top tiers a lot. Whenever I lose to them I accept that I could've done better neutral, and that a better player would've won with DK or Bowser.

Unlike some other heavy mains, I don't complain about having to do work to overcome my character's weakness. There are people who want heavies to keep the same weight, range and reward, but have their neutral and disadvantage buffed. They want to be able to play a simpler character and have no weaknesses to worry about.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm not a good opponent away from changing my mind. Don't insult me by assuming I only think like this because I never have any issues playing heavies. I have to deal with top tiers a lot. Whenever I lose to them I accept that I could've done better neutral, and that a better player would've won with DK or Bowser.

Unlike some other heavy mains, I don't complain about having to do work to overcome my character's weakness. There are people who want heavies to keep the same weight, range and reward, but have their neutral and disadvantage buffed. They want to be able to play a simpler character and have no weaknesses to worry about.

Honestly, a lot don't want to accept that heavies have these weaknesses BY DESIGN. They're spoiled by top tiers in other games.

 

[LancerStaff]

Why exactly do people think Roy is bad? He obviously isn't top 20 but I've seen a lot of people consider him to be lower-mid or worse and I just don't understand why. What are Roy's qualities that put him so low in some people's eyes?

Dying three times as fast as Marth with only like twice as much reward, pretty much. The fact that Marth wasn't exactly a winning design didn't help much... For every little thing Roy has over Marth, Marth has something over Roy. Until Roy manages to make a big splash, because we all know he's not getting buffs with what most people think of him, he's just going to be seen as the red Marth that costs real money...

You're not considering three things which I feel make Mario better than Pit.

Pit has an ALRIGHT kill throw, it mostly works around ledges but so does Mario's back throw. That said, both characters have a potential kill off of grabs.

you're certainly justified in your comparison of frame data; Pit has relatively fast start up moves. however, that doesn't inherently make moves better. Pits usmash is pretty terrible on whiff, which is something we should consider when evaluating the utility and effectiveness of a move. Have you seen top plumber mains control space around them with low cool down usmashes? Ally usmashed 5 times straight, hitting Nyanko on the 5th to take the set over in Japan. point is, head is invincible, and you can keep swinging. It covers 160~ degrees, and Pits only covers above him.

Damage output and reward. If Mario lands any kind of landing aerial or a grab, he can convert that to about 30-60 percent every time. Don't even mention platforms for combo extensions! Pit gets low percent combos, but can't really net the reward Mario can.

Both characters have average projectiles. The only edge I give to Pit are his jumps, which can be used to avoid landing and juggle traps. Mario's aerial mobility and jump heights are also a saving grace too, however.

Again, was just comparing their killing ability. No, Pit's Usmash isn't spamable, but it comes out faster and I'm pretty sure it kills quicker too. More risk, more reward. Didn't think that Mario's Bthrow was incredibly powerful nor would many care to get into a position where it'd be useful. Meanwhile Pit can hold his ground, get a Bthrow and then either get a gimp outright or just grab the ledge getup and Fthrow from there. A killing Fthrow is much more versatile then a killing Bthrow regardless.

I still struggle to understand why people think Pit's arrows are average... They're weak and don't combo into anything, but they technically beat every projectile, are immune to proper reflectors, effectively poke around shields at a range, beat out any form of dodging that lacks invincibility or cancelling the projectile entirely, held arrows beat out proper dodges, and have a wealth of utility once in advantage. We end up with things like Pit outcamping Link of all people because Pit can keep above Link's projectiles and shoot around his shield completely. A camping Pit on the opposite side of the stage is basically impossible to outcamp without charging Sheik's needles or something... Assorbers besides Villager, Gravitational Pull, and like the Mega Gunman custom are all that comes to mind.

 

[|RK|]

Honestly, can you really call Mario well-rounded when he excels in at least two areas compared to the rest of the cast?

I guess I meant more "tools for every situation and no really bad matchups," but touché.

 

[Dre89]

Honestly, a lot don't want to accept that heavies have these weaknesses BY DESIGN. They're spoiled by top tiers in other games.

Yeah if you want to keep heavies big and slow, you have to just give them dumb ways to kill very early to compensate for how often they lose neutral.

DK and Bowser already have this. Bowser kills people very reliably pre100 with moves like downb (can combo out of jab) and bair. Without rage he won't do it as early as DK, but the trade off is that he has more than a 20% window, and abuses rage more.

So for these two, having a subpar neutral and disadvantage is justified because they don't need to win neutral that many times to win the stock. Neutral is the place where heavies need to do more work than other characters, there should be some skill to playing them.

 

[Big-Cat]

Yeah if you want to keep heavies big and slow, you have to just give them dumb ways to kill very early to compensate for how often they lose neutral.

DK and Bowser already have this. Bowser kills people very reliably pre100 with moves like downb (can combo out of jab) and bair. Without rage he won't do it as early as DK, but the trade off is that he has more than a 20% window, and abuses rage more.

So for these two, having a subpar neutral and disadvantage is justified because they don't need to win neutral that many times to win the stock. Neutral is the place where heavies need to do more work than other characters, there should be some skill to playing them.

Actually, he cannot combo into down B with jab. It IS a frame trap though. Thing I like about heavies is that just need to be patient and find that opening. Then it's UNGA UNGA UNGA UNGA UNGA.

That being said, I CAN play other characters that are big on hit and run. Tekken does that to you.

 

[Pazzo.]

@False

How's the path of Ryu going? I saw you take a pretty sick win over Boss at Xanadu.

Any thoughts on how far you can take the character's meta?

 

[outfoxd]

Actually, he cannot combo into down B with jab. It IS a frame trap though. Thing I like about heavies is that just need to be patient and find that opening. Then it's UNGA UNGA UNGA UNGA UNGA.

That being said, I CAN play other characters that are big on hit and run. Tekken does that to you.

Tekken heavies seem better equipped to deal with low mobility. Isnt jack high tier?

 

[Big-Cat]

Tekken heavies seem better equipped to deal with low mobility. Isnt jack high tier?

I don't know about Tekken 7, but I don't think he was that high in Tag 2. The thing with Tekken though is that mobility is different in the form of the Z axis being used, not the X or Y. Just about everyone has the same dash or backdash.

 

[Senko Zero]

Tekken heavies seem better equipped to deal with low mobility. Isnt jack high tier?

Not so much high tier as just really easy to play. He has more range then a lot of the cast but he's somewhat lacking in speed in moves when people are in your face. He also has some crazy throw damage then most of the cast doesn't (with the exception of the likes of the Kings\Marduk).

KumaOso's point about mobility stays true. There are small variations in backdash speed and some characters have a different backdash method altogether but for the most part mobility is the same throughout the cast. Jack himself doesn't have anything special mobility wise...although he can fly..which is purely a troll move.

Course this is from someone who really played during the Tekken 5 days so take that as you will.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

http://pastebin.com/B7jkAtq0

 

[Big-Cat]

Tekken has more of an emphasis with positioning, neutral, and to an extent, oki. Xiaoyu is known for her evasive fighting style (and is such in real life), but this is not because of inherent speed, but rather that her stances provide so many positioning options. Phoenix dodges all highs and some mids, can do rolls for side stepping, can go into Rain Dance, etc. And Rain Dance has a bunch of mixups from it along with more dodging moves

EDIT: As an aside, I find it kind of odd that okizeme is almost never referred to here, even in the context of tech chases which are the same exact thing.

 

[C0rvus]

Back when I was experimenting with and in particular I was considering their vortex game. Shadow Sneak at certain spacings can cover multiple wakeup options. So can charged shuriken. Duck Hunt is a no brainer, he can cover probably everything with some crafty setups between gunmen, clay pigeons, and the can. He might have the most flexible oki in the cast.

 

[Nobie]

One thing that Smash 4 did was give a lot of heavies small sprinklings of speed so that they keep up with speedier characters in specific circumstances, on top of their range and power.

Bowser has a good dash speed and auto cancel aerials.
Ganondorf has dash attack and up air.
Ike has auto cancels, decent air speed.
Bowser Jr. has cart and moves faster during Up B.
Dedede even has a few deceptively quick moves, like Down Tilt.

 

[Mario766]

Ganon's Dash Attack is frame 10. It isn't that fast, also they didn't give him a fast up air, he's always had it. It's always been super fast and super good, at least it was this fast in Melee.

The only move D3 has that is quick is down tilt at that. He didn't really get much because he overall got nerfed from Brawl and also got nerfed right after the game came out.

Ike has auto cancels, decent landing lag on his aerials and retains his good dash, strong pivot *albeit nerfed* and enhanced aerial speed but rather weak weaving.

Bowser has good ground mobility but his aerial mobility is very lacking. F-Air/B-Air auto cancelling is a strong boon though, I'll say.

It's hard to find characters without something in their mobility, mostly characters like Ganon/D3 who don't have it in any fashion besides fall speed due to being super heavy.

 

[thehard]

I think he meant how Ganon's DA gives him a speed boost.

 

[Mario766]

I never notice it, but it's definitely there. Doesn't change much when he's hurting everywhere else mobility wise.

 

[TriTails]

Again, was just comparing their killing ability. No, Pit's Usmash isn't spamable, but it comes out faster and I'm pretty sure it kills quicker too. More risk, more reward. Didn't think that Mario's Bthrow was incredibly powerful nor would many care to get into a position where it'd be useful. Meanwhile Pit can hold his ground, get a Bthrow and then either get a gimp outright or just grab the ledge getup and Fthrow from there. A killing Fthrow is much more versatile then a killing Bthrow regardless.

Pit's U-smash hits nobody that stays on the ground. It may be faster and kills quicker (?), but you're pretty much hitting thin air with that.

Mario's U-smash is better because not only it has low cooldown, it has head invincibility that beats out a lot of aerials. It also much more effective to use OoS due to its coverage, and it's a kill move to boot. Pit's misses everyone and much less versatile.

That said, Mario can't really hit you with U-smash in his front unless you're hugging him, but the coverage in general is already excellent. I can't think of an U-smash better than him except for Doc's. Luigi's and Rosa's compete with his, but not exactly superior.

Think of Pit's being more risk and more reward, but the arrow leaning more towards 'more risk'. You can throw around U-smashes as Mario and not be punished hard. You can't with Pit's. And the ability to laglessly throw out a threathening vertical kill move with head invincibility is HUGE.

 

[williamsga555]

The best "quick" thing regarding Dedede are probably his auto-cancels. Bair definitely looks like it should not be a SHAC move, but it works! Nair is all but completely lagless on landing no matter when you use it, and fair autocancels from a fullhop. Gives him a nice aerial bubble to work with when he's not in the process of getting juggled.

 

[Mario766]

N-Air only auto cancels when rising, so I wouldn't say it's all but completely lagless. 15 fames of landing lag is considerable for a move without much disjoint, it isn't safe on shield at any rate.

 

[Thinkaman]

All light characters have select powerful moves. All heavy characters have select high mobility options. I feel like this is super important to Smash's overall design theory.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

All light characters have select powerful moves. All heavy characters have select high mobility options. I feel like this is super important to Smash's overall design theory.

Can you go a bit into detail? This sounds interesting. Outside of potential space control extension for heavies, what does those high mobility options open up and are they effective in their role? The light characters usually have high mobility specs (unless your Kirby, or falco; you're just supposed to have the best CQC game I guess) helps extend their range while those select kill moves make that space they control that much more deadly. Would the high mobility options for heavies act as a wind to spread their deadly influence on the stage? This topic you're talking about sounds very interesting (I love theory).

 

[TriTails]

I feel that speed isn't the one that holds back heavyweight the most. It's their size.

I don't feel burdened when trying to use Luigi's SH B-air fearing that it may miss. Because Luigi shorthops so high and B-air has little vertical coverage, and for a SHFFAC, it's very slow. If you are tall enough to be comfortably SH B-air'd by Luigi then you are screwed. You are also big enough to be kept in rapid jabs for longer (LITTLE MAC. His rapid jab feels like release when I'm playing DK) and you are a bigger target at... everywhere. Juggling, edeguarding, combos, even sweetspotted things. The only super-heavy that doesn't suffer from this in a deep hole is Ganon.

Though, this doesn't apply to a certain character with a Luma in her front...

Also, landing lag. I suppose they can't decrease them unless their aerials are toned down a litlle, but still...

 

[LancerStaff]

Pit's U-smash hits nobody that stays on the ground. It may be faster and kills quicker (?), but you're pretty much hitting thin air with that.

Mario's U-smash is better because not only it has low cooldown, it has head invincibility that beats out a lot of aerials. It also much more effective to use OoS due to its coverage, and it's a kill move to boot. Pit's misses everyone and much less versatile.

That said, Mario can't really hit you with U-smash in his front unless you're hugging him, but the coverage in general is already excellent. I can't think of an U-smash better than him except for Doc's. Luigi's and Rosa's compete with his, but not exactly superior.

Think of Pit's being more risk and more reward, but the arrow leaning more towards 'more risk'. You can throw around U-smashes as Mario and not be punished hard. You can't with Pit's. And the ability to laglessly throw out a threathening vertical kill move with head invincibility is HUGE.

Off the top of my head Pit's Usmash works well enough to hit Mario right after his, so it's not like it whiffs against everybody... Bar MK there's no top tiers shorter then Mario, either. Besides maybe Olimar (not that anybody knows the matchup because there's like two good Olimars in existence) Pit doesn't really struggle against shorties anyway. Against most top tiers Pit can usually punish with Usmash, and against somebody like Rosalina he can always punish with Usmash.

Head invincibility is effectively the same thing as a giant sword disjoint. Pit's Usmash beats out most aerials, and quite handily at that because it's three hits and not just one. No real timing necessary.

I know Mario's Usmash does this and that... But Pit has other ways to deal with such situations. Rolling anywhere near Pit is just stupid because his Dsmash is ridiculous... Actually, if you're going to compare single attacks like that I'd compare those two.

Of course, that's still not what I'm trying to say. Roy can kill you at zero with Flare Blade, but nobody's ever going to walk into it. Likewise, people aren't going to roll around Mario much if ever just because it's that potent. I'm not talking about how much space they negate, I'm talking about how easy it is to finish stocks. If nothing else, Pit's more consistent.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Bar MK there's no top tiers shorter then Mario, either.

Pikachu?

 

[TriTails]

EDIT: Ehhh screw this post. I better lab stuffs out AND be confident with them before posting. My bad.

 

[outfoxd]

Not so much high tier as just really easy to play. He has more range then a lot of the cast but he's somewhat lacking in speed in moves when people are in your face. He also has some crazy throw damage then most of the cast doesn't (with the exception of the likes of the Kings\Marduk).

KumaOso's point about mobility stays true. There are small variations in backdash speed and some characters have a different backdash method altogether but for the most part mobility is the same throughout the cast. Jack himself doesn't have anything special mobility wise...although he can fly..which is purely a troll move.

Course this is from someone who really played during the Tekken 5 days so take that as you will.

I looked at some impressions of T7 and he seems to be well placed. I know he felt good when i had to pick him up to run with Dragunov in ttt2. The low crouch gunshot punch (db+1) was great for harassing up close,though that's been around forever.

In any case i know it's a tightrope. Move a heavy too far with mobility to deliver their power and people will hate the character, but somehow you have to compensate. Similar with Duck Hunt. As much as i want a killing throw that might be a bit too much considering he has decent speed and grab range and can pressure people into shields a lot.

 

[meleebrawler]

One thing that Smash 4 did was give a lot of heavies small sprinklings of speed so that they keep up with speedier characters in specific circumstances, on top of their range and power.

Bowser has a good dash speed and auto cancel aerials.
Ganondorf has dash attack and up air.
Ike has auto cancels, decent air speed.
Bowser Jr. has cart and moves faster during Up B.
Dedede even has a few deceptively quick moves, like Down Tilt.

Let's also not forget the whole rage thing for heavies, where getting hit lots can potentially they need even fewer victories in neutral to come out on top.

 

[Luco]

Dying three times as fast as Marth with only like twice as much reward, pretty much. The fact that Marth wasn't exactly a winning design didn't help much... For every little thing Roy has over Marth, Marth has something over Roy. Until Roy manages to make a big splash, because we all know he's not getting buffs with what most people think of him, he's just going to be seen as the red Marth that costs real money...

As in, Marth wasn't exactly a winning design in this game or in general? Because, I think we know by now that Marth has always kind of wavered along that line of being underwhelming as opposed to oppressingly good.

In Roy's case, I've always felt as though aside from select combos and set-ups, the design of "I need this opponent up close to do any real damage" whilst so much is so unsafe feels almost damning to him. I actually wish I knew his exact frame advantages and dis-advantages off a bunch of his moves, but they've always felt like such a commitment. Also upB isn't particularly good as a recovery move (I feel like Roy would get edge-guarded a lot easier because of fall speed and thus less chance of any commitment/move in the air to stop you murdering him offstage).

Also, I like that a few top players pop in and everyone rushes to ask them celebrity questions.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

A little Yoshi talk (this may have already been brought up, so I apologize for any redundancy if it has):

The Wall takes another victory at Smash Club 24 and DJ Fliphop!

Set can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz0Gql3riHU

Any further words?

 

[DunnoBro]

A little Yoshi talk (this may have already been brought up, so I apologize for any redundancy if it has):

The Wall takes another victory at Smash Club 24 and DJ Fliphop!

Set can be viewed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz0Gql3riHU

Any further words?

Just that I'm looking forward to Wall at genesis, so he can play better players than a diddy who used an average of 1 banana per stock that first game then died in the others because he kept doing deep offstage with diddy.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Just that I'm looking forward to Wall at genesis, so he can play better players than a diddy who used an average of 1 banana per stock that first game then died in the others because he kept doing deep offstage with diddy.

So am I.

BTW, is there a way to watch the tournament on stream?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

http://pastebin.com/B7jkAtq0

I'm at work so I can't really turn the volume up to listen and see if you're talking as Wario does his thing. Apparently by jumping off the bike in certain circumstances he can force a grounded state on himself even when he's in the air? Which can be a good or bad thing depending on the opponent? (Related: I never knew Luma's sweetspot utilt only worked vs. grounded targets. Good to know.)

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm at work so I can't really turn the volume up to listen and see if you're talking as Wario does his thing. Apparently by jumping off the bike in certain circumstances he can force a grounded state on himself even when he's in the air? Which can be a good or bad thing depending on the opponent? (Related: I never knew Luma's sweetspot utilt only worked vs. grounded targets. Good to know.)

Everything I say is also in the video description, but, yes, using Attack or Special to trigger the jump off the Bike leaves him in a grounded state, meaning ground-only hitboxes can hit him in the air, and air-only hitboxes cannot hit him at all.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Everything I say is also in the video description, but, yes, using Attack or Special to trigger the jump off the Bike leaves him in a grounded state, meaning ground-only hitboxes can hit him in the air, and air-only hitboxes cannot hit him at all.

Ah, I just watched the embedded video here. Oops.

*checks description*

Okay, so he can revert back by jumping off with the jump button, but it's weird how it persists after death.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Okay, so he can revert back by jumping off with the jump button, but it's weird how it persists after death.

It's probably a coding error. Essentially, Wario is the only character that can jump into the air using the attack buttons via the bike, so the game mostly likely didn't really know he transitioned into the air state because he didn't jump by actually using the jump button, and it doesn't register it for whatever reason until he actually does it correctly (inputting the jump button) off the bike.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Everything I say is also in the video description, but, yes, using Attack or Special to trigger the jump off the Bike leaves him in a grounded state, meaning ground-only hitboxes can hit him in the air, and air-only hitboxes cannot hit him at all.

Does this also happen with Bowser Jr?

 

[Sonicninja115]

http://pastebin.com/B7jkAtq0

This seems, useful... It is sort of an innate advantage isn't it?

 

[Spinosaurus]

Does this also happen with Bowser Jr?

Bowser Jr can only jump using the jump button, so nope.

 

[DunnoBro]

Doesn't sonic also jump using an attack button (from grounded spindash)?

Or is that just an animation that replaces his jump?