Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Thinkaman]

Duck Hunt has the worst frame 3 nair; **** doesn't even hit until frame 6.

 

[Ffamran]

Duck Hunt has the worst frame 3 nair; **** doesn't even hit until frame 6.

But that means it's not a frame 3 Nair... As for a weird Nair, apparently Wario's Nair hits on frame 4 and then frame 15-38 meaning it has as an 11 frame gap from the clean hit and the late hit. This and Dr. Mario's are probably the most unique Nairs in the game.

 

[CHOMPY]

Its a shame that Warios dair doesn't have a long lasting hitbox to cover their normal getups.

How many frames does it take to cover the opponents normal getup?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Its a shame that Warios dair doesn't have a long lasting hitbox to cover their normal getups.

How many frames does it take to cover the opponents normal getup?

Doesn't Wario's chomp do the job better?

 

[TriTails]

But that means it's not a frame 3 Nair... As for a weird Nair, apparently Wario's Nair hits on frame 4 and then frame 15-38 meaning it has as an 11 frame gap from the clean hit and the late hit. This and Dr. Mario's are probably the most unique Nairs in the game.

Most unique N-air goes to Mega's. Shoots lemons and doesn't give a **** about landing lag.

 

[Vipermoon]

RE: Marth's range

- Only Fsmash, grounded neutral B (due to not sliding forward in this game), up B, and Grab (universal grab range nerf) have less horizontal range than Brawl.
- Usmash, Dsmash, Nair, Bair, and side B actually have more horizontal range than Brawl. The rest is the same.
- The problem is a lot of previously weak Brawl characters received major range buffs in Smash 4 (usually some crazy disjoints with flashy animations to go with them). It makes Marth and the other swordies' swords less significant. I find it hilarious that pretty much every character outranges or sometimes out-disjoints MK (he truly did received major range nerfs everywhere unlike Marth).

RE: Brawl Marth

- He received major buffs from Melee. Since traditional comboing was gone his aerials received major knockback buffs. Dancing Blade turned broken (frame 4 and lagless DB1, transcendent, auto-connects at nearly every percent), frame 1 invincibile Dolphin Slash, 3 of his aerials had half the landing lag of Melee (universal landing lag buff though) but who cares cuz L-cancel, counter buffs, Usmash buffs, Dsmash buffs, stronger Uthrow. And he still had chain-grabs in addition to the grab release stuff.
- Other than range on some moves and Dair's spike hitbox priority switch, the only real nerfs were to IASAs but this nerf was universal throughout all characters from Melee to Brawl. He lost many IASA frames on Jab, Dash Attack, Utilt, Dtilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Fair, Bair, neutral B, and side B.

Conclusions:
- Smash 4 Marth's range is fine, it's just the other characters that create the problem. But he really does have nasty blind spots due to deleted hitboxes, less hitbox duration, and smaller hitboxes.
- Brawl Marth, in my opinion, is just as abusive as Melee Marth. He wasn't really nerfed, just adjusted to fit Brawl more.

 

[C0rvus]

What characters were largely buffed from Brawl? Especially range and frame data wise it seems like most character mostly got nerfs. Peach lost range and frames from a number of moves, Marth lost his grab and autocancels, MK got gutted, D3 got gutted, Falco lost his crazy lasers and chaingrab, Wario lost his armored forward smash among other things, etc; it seems like everyone got hit, but it's all relative. The difference in the engine between games and the way the cast stacks up against itself means comparisons to Brawl is pretty moot. I guess it's interesting to see what changed and think about why.

 

[Amadeus9]

MK was repurposed. Hardest hit by nerfs is imo D3. Well, besides Ice Climbers and Snake

 

[UberMadman]

What characters were largely buffed from Brawl? Especially range and frame data wise it seems like most character mostly got nerfs.

and initially .

Also debatably and .

 

[Y2Kay]

It may be placebo but i feel that has more range than in brawl.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Relative to Brawl, Meta Knight still got beat by the nerf stick. Not that it really matters because Brawl Meta Knight was on a power level way above the others, and Smash 4's updated version is still really really good.

I would say Sheik clearly benefits the most from the transition from Brawl to Smash 4. Removal of transformation gave her a powerful new tool to work with, changes in game mechanics make her combo game much stronger, she can play significantly safer than other characters, her movement is faster than before, and needles got a serious buff in their utility. Among other things, that is.

 

[Y2Kay]

Though you guys still think charizard is bottom tier, being seperated from pokemon trainer, and therefore having "unlimited" stamina was big for him.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Though you guys still think charizard is bottom tier, being seperated from pokemon trainer, and therefore having "unlimited" stamina was big for him.

Charizard was the other character I was thinking of. It's not just that, his combo game is more consistent as well and his recovery is stronger now too. But I hadn't even considered stamina as a factor, I sorta forgot it existed tbh.

 

[Vipermoon]

The nerfs were many. Every character got nerfed in some minor ways (other than damage which is too obvious) but there were definitely many major ones. I mean it makes sense, Brawl and Melee had a lot of broken-good moves. Smash 4 has almost none of that.

I think (in no order) were hit the hardest with MK and Marth getting it the worst IMO if you don't include the loss of chains grabs as a heavy factor.

We say some characters were buffed from Brawl to Smash 4 but that isn't entirely true. The biggest/only ways characters were "buffed" from Brawl to Smash 4 were: increased ranged by dumb disjoints, NOT getting nerfed damaged, and major mobility buffs. Pure frame data, though, was nerfed for every character.



All of these characters were nerfed in only a few ways but they mostly received "buffs" by some combination of character redesigns, range increases, major mobility buffs, NOT getting nerfed much in damage, kill power improvements, untouched landing lag and autocancels, game engine changes, or simply not changing much at all.

 

[Jaguar360]

and initially .

Also debatably and .

Honestly, Smash 4 wasn't that good to Sheik outside of Bouncing Fish, Vanish and the extra true combos that everyone else got. Charged needles don't do as much damage, F-tilt chains aren't nearly as long, DACUS was removed, and all her aerials are weaker as a whole (though f-air makes up for this in combo potential). B-air in particular was much stronger, though that was nerfed via patch in Sm4sh. The nerfs obviously don't mean much to Bouncing Fish lol.

I'd argue that Yoshi got some notable nerfs too that make his buffs a bit less awesome (note: less awesome doesn't mean not awesome). The terrible new pivot grab lag and the removal of his grab release stuff were really detrimental to his grab game, especially since he didn't gain throw combos in the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh aside for D-throw --> U-air at specific percents on specific characters. And while his new U-smash is nice and quick and strong, it doesn't have the coverage of the old one. B-air being a lot less safe is another minor point that was kind of offset by its new knockback and kill power I guess.

EDIT: Reading Vipermoon's post, I think I might be nitpicking a bit much

 

[Luco]

too. I don't care what anyone else thinks - not being CGed to death / have stuff guaranteed on you by half the cast or more really does a lot to help your viability. And arguably a lot of what he lost in his AC windows and pivot grabs and the like, he gained in a usable Zair and combo game. Meahhh.

Lucas has some interesting things going on with him right now. We've just seen some evidence of Zair - footstool combo confirms which some of our players are already replicating.

Also, in the most recent Famitsu column I noticed something interesting Sakurai said, that being about he couldn't listen to high-level players' balancing suggestions if it were to mess with lower-leveled players enjoying the game. I sat there and thought to myself "What if we as a community tried to think of like, 5 changes and analysed their effect in both competitive and casual realms of play to the fullest extent we could possibly imagine?"

I think some of what we discuss and identify as 'oppressive' does indeed get changed (probably because the Japanese community notices these things too) but often not to the extent we like it because Sheik with a 3% Fair that has no AC window ruins the 'ninja' aspect casual Sheik mains like to envision. And of course, who's to say how much a given change will affect the meta, casual and competitive? It's no wonder they're highly conservative in all but the most direct of their changes.

 

[Vipermoon]

Honestly, Smash 4 wasn't that good to Sheik outside of Bouncing Fish, Vanish and the extra true combos that everyone else got. Charged needles don't do as much damage, F-tilt chains aren't nearly as long, DACUS was removed, and all her aerials are weaker as a whole (though f-air makes up for this in combo potential). B-air in particular was much stronger, though that was nerfed via patch in Sm4sh. The nerfs obviously don't mean much to Bouncing Fish lol.

I'd argue that Yoshi got some notable nerfs too that make his buffs a bit less awesome (note: less awesome doesn't mean not awesome). The terrible new pivot grab lag and the removal of his grab release stuff were really detrimental to his grab game, especially since he didn't gain throw combos in the transition from Brawl to Sm4sh aside for D-throw --> U-air at specific percents on specific characters. And while his new U-smash is nice and quick and strong, it doesn't have the coverage of the old one. B-air being a lot less safe is another minor point that was kind of offset by its new knockback and kill power I guess.

EDIT: Reading Vipermoon's post, I think I might be nitpicking a bit much

You're mostly right about Sheik. A lot of things changed, especially with damage (which got disgustingly low with patches).

But don't forget about mobility. Sheik, ZSS, and Mario got the biggest mobility buffs from Brawl to Smash 4. Sheik went from among the worst air speed to among the best. Walking and running was increased too. This, along with Fair's new angle, Bouncing Fish, and game mechanics (Brawl Sheik would body us HARD in Smash 4) are the biggest reasons for Sheik's dominance.

Also, didn't Sheik have auto-cancelling needles in Brawl? That's a huge nerf.

 

[Big-Cat]

She still needs more nerfs.

 

[Nobie]

too. I don't care what anyone else thinks - not being CGed to death / have stuff guaranteed on you by half the cast or more really does a lot to help your viability. And arguably a lot of what he lost in his AC windows and pivot grabs and the like, he gained in a usable Zair and combo game. Meahhh.

Lucas has some interesting things going on with him right now. We've just seen some evidence of Zair - footstool combo confirms which some of our players are already replicating.

Also, in the most recent Famitsu column I noticed something interesting Sakurai said, that being about he couldn't listen to high-level players' balancing suggestions if it were to mess with lower-leveled players enjoying the game. I sat there and thought to myself "What if we as a community tried to think of like, 5 changes and analysed their effect in both competitive and casual realms of play to the fullest extent we could possibly imagine?"

I think some of what we discuss and identify as 'oppressive' does indeed get changed (probably because the Japanese community notices these things too) but often not to the extent we like it because Sheik with a 3% Fair that has no AC window ruins the 'ninja' aspect casual Sheik mains like to envision. And of course, who's to say how much a given change will affect the meta, casual and competitive? It's no wonder they're highly conservative in all but the most direct of their changes.

A while back an old Brawl player, Blueberry was it?, was lamenting the changes to Lucas from Brawl to Smash 4. He essentially said that the character was nerfed and that Lucas's moveset didn't flow as well as it used to. The curious thing about this was that while some Lucas players agreed, others didn't. What is the reason that there's not a consensus on whether Lucas is better or worse than he used to be? Is it that Lucas used to have more diverse play styles available to him but has now been narrowed down to fewer paths due to the loss of AC windows?

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah Sheik's mobility got a LOT better and I didn't even notice. Her air mobility in Melee is absolutely atrocious. Ground mobility is not great either. Of all the characters in Brawl, I think she had one of the best DACUS. She clearly doesn't need it now, though.

Also, Lucas is without a doubt more viable than in Brawl. I would trade autocancel windows for not being grab released into everything in a heartbeat. That said, I can see why Brawl Lucas mains would not like his new incarnation. The loss of his cool ATs and seemingly more rigid reliance on playing keep-away might certainly make him less fun.

 

[BetaDjinn]

got nerfed the hardest by far in the transition. All of his strong punishes which he thrived off of (aerial strings through the blast zone, chain grab) are gone. Bair was completely changed for the worse. Even Waddle Dees were removed and replaced with an inferior projectile. Now there's basically no way for him to overcome being camped/spaced/baited, and even when he does get in he doesn't get a big punish.

 

[Djent]

When we talk about buffs and nerfs, are we talking %ile ranking or relative viability? Because the former criterion creates a more "zero-sum" scenario whereas the latter allows that most characters were buffed. IMO these are the characters who might be affected by the discrepancy:

 

[Luco]

A while back an old Brawl player, Blueberry was it?, was lamenting the changes to Lucas from Brawl to Smash 4. He essentially said that the character was nerfed and that Lucas's moveset didn't flow as well as it used to. The curious thing about this was that while some Lucas players agreed, others didn't. What is the reason that there's not a consensus on whether Lucas is better or worse than he used to be? Is it that Lucas used to have more diverse play styles available to him but has now been narrowed down to fewer paths due to the loss of AC windows?

I promise I'll respond to this fully when I get home but yes it partially has to do with that as well as has the change streamlined Lucas to be all about 'getting the grab' and is he strong enough to do that? Stuff like that gets everyone up in arms and it's not clear how viable Lucas' playstyle really is in this game, along with not being as flexible without many of his old ATs.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Needles were nerfed from Brawl in a couple of ways, including dealing out less % per hit, but it doesn't really matter because they're much more effective at shutting down characters from mid to long range.

Needles come out quick, have extremely low recovery when charged, can noticeably combo into one of her best kill moves, and put characters into a tumble state. They're also excellent at trapping landings in this game, partially because of the increased landing lag on certain actions.

Being able to knock down opponents, or whittle away at their shield is a big deal, and it most noticeably affect characters with poor mobility or approach options. Not to turn the discussion towards saying "this character needs nerfed," but if any aspect of Sheik needed to be toned down for the health of the game, Needles are the first thing they should look at.

Buffing the worse off characters absolutely should be the standard approach, but certain aspects of the best characters that cause them to act as "gate-keepers" should also be nerfed where possible. Changing Needles would be a small blow to Sheik, but it would be a big boon to the likes of Ganon or Dedede, who are big, slow, beefy pincushions for Sheik.

 

[Megamang]

I definitely agree, needles are the only thing about shiek that feels totally unfair. Ok, she is the best midrange fighter/grappler, but why can she shut down everyone with needles. Characters like mega man and duck hunt are very projectile reliant; its dumb at any level that a single chargeable projectile completely wins at any range, doubly so that its freakin needles.

 

[Dre89]

Though you guys still think charizard is bottom tier, being seperated from pokemon trainer, and therefore having "unlimited" stamina was big for him.

The biggest 'buff' he got was that he no longer has Squirtle attached to him to invalidate his usage.

Also he's not bottom tier, at least not in terms of what that would say about he's viability. He's a decent character, he just doesn't get enough reward to compensate for the flaws of being heavy like DK and Bowser do.

 

[Z'zgashi]

PT Zard was useful for the Yoshi MU cuz Squirtle got ****stomped by him

 

[Luco]

A while back an old Brawl player, Blueberry was it?, was lamenting the changes to Lucas from Brawl to Smash 4. He essentially said that the character was nerfed and that Lucas's moveset didn't flow as well as it used to. The curious thing about this was that while some Lucas players agreed, others didn't. What is the reason that there's not a consensus on whether Lucas is better or worse than he used to be? Is it that Lucas used to have more diverse play styles available to him but has now been narrowed down to fewer paths due to the loss of AC windows?

Right, so, let me get into depth on this now.

The changes from brawl left a lot of us shaking our heads. Lucas was definitely streamlined, arguably 'dumbed down' to more or less a single playstyle. At least, his notable ATs were gone, burst movement options like zap jump / magnet pull were out of the picture and his AC windows gone meant he couldn't really 'weave' around the opponent like he used to be able to do. In addition, other nerfs like Dsmash now acting like Tatsumaki (hits once then no more hitboxes apply) and PKT end-lag were insult to injury.

What Lucas was supposedly 'compensated' with seemed strong enough - a working Zair along with a fantastic throw game. But of course, every low tier seems to have their greatest strength held back by their greatest weakness. In Lucas' case, the irony of having such an amazing throw game along with an average tether grab was a bit too much.

I think the reason Lucas mains don't agree on it is because it's such a volatile strategy. There are a few grab set-ups but for the most part it's hard reads. A lot of what Lucas once had has now been taken away to be replaced with something that's really great when it works but really bad when it doesn't...

At the end of the day Lucas still has keep-away and zoning. He has the potential to play REALLY lame (I've seen Mekos win an online friendly against Dabuz's Rosalina with Lucas using what any casual player would instantly call out as 'spamming PKF' and Zair) but a lot of people still don't really know what to do with him other than reading the grab. Against higher tiers that's generally not enough (Fox, Falcon, Sonic, Sheik and friends who'll just break his mid-range zoning with their superior mobility).

I think he's decent enough but I'm yet to take him to a real tournament as a strong secondary (I've used him in one tournament set and it was closer than I'd have liked).

He also hasn't had much rep, though Mekos is back on scene so hopefully that will change in the near future.

 

[Kofu]

was buffed

Paraphrased for clarity here because I just wanted to focus on this.

Losing his massive FTilt is a really big deal for his grounded spacing game. ROB's grab range was also nerfed (IIRC), Up-B lost fuel, and Gyro canceling is much harder (I think it's still in but it has a 1-frame window, could be wrong).

He got a few quality of life changes, like USmash having a propping hit for grounded targets, Side-B not being complete trash, and his throws being more consistent for combos/killing, but he still gets juggled hard and has limited tools to escape it. The airdodge mechanic change was bad for ROB. I wouldn't say he was buffed or nerfed overall, just tweaked.

 

[Tr!ckyTr!smo]

What would you guys say on the vs. ?

Me being a Bowser Jr main, these 2 usually give me the most problems.
People think Rosalina and Sheik usually area problem from Bowser Jr., but fighting many these past couple months from Anthers to Local Tourneys

seem to overwhelm cause of certain combos/spacing Bowser Jr. is limited to.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Brawl and Smash 4 are so different in terms of mechanics that I don't think comparing characters between those games makes much sense. The context is just so different that it won't get us anywhere.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Though you guys still think charizard is bottom tier, being seperated from pokemon trainer, and therefore having "unlimited" stamina was big for him.

Not a big deal. Charizard cared about stamina very little compared to the other two because of his plethora of KO options and high base knockback. Charizard never struggled to deal damage as a result of stamina, which was a bigger deal for Squirtle and Ivysaur than weakened KO power, as well.

PT Zard was useful for the Yoshi MU cuz Squirtle got ****stomped by him

In my experience, that's not true at all. Charizard likely does the worst of the three. Punished out of grab release via U-Smash with comparatively fewer options to avoid it, he couldn't deal with Yoshi's horizontal air speed at all, Up-B really limited his approach options, Yoshi's hitboxes often went around or overpowered Rock Smash, and Charizard didn't have the pokes to compete up close...

The grab-release chain on Squirtle doesn't lead into a F-Air spike until 50-60% if you are good at mashing because Yoshi would slide off stage with you, he could actually combo Yoshi reasonably well, he could actually approach Yoshi reasonably well and press buttons against him, he stood a chance of juggling him off of launchers...

Ivysaur didn't get grab-released into guaranteed stuff (iirc), Yoshi's weight was ideal for large amounts of Bullet Seed damage, B-Air was solid for harassment if you had stage control, and Ivysaur was actually rather good at counterpoking Yoshi with her big hitboxes. An overextending Yoshi is often met with ridiculous hitboxes against Ivysaur.

The matchup wasn't very good for any of them, but Charizard left me feeling least hopeful when the matchup came up (which was often, as my older brother, who was #2 in AL when he was playing, used him a lot).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wasn't there a large argument that Diddy was nefed from brawl? because of the Banana loss? Not that I agree wholeheartedly with this, I am just wondering.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

The nerfs were many. Every character got nerfed in some minor ways (other than damage which is too obvious) but there were definitely many major ones. I mean it makes sense, Brawl and Melee had a lot of broken-good moves. Smash 4 has almost none of that.

I think (in no order) were hit the hardest with MK and Marth getting it the worst IMO if you don't include the loss of chains grabs as a heavy factor.

You're saying MK got hit harder than Falco, GnW, DDD? If I remember correctly MK is still high tier, and these characters got buffed worse. Heck, GnW and DDD both got hit harder than Marth too.

EDIT:

Not a big deal. Charizard cared about stamina very little compared to the other two because of his plethora of KO options and high base knockback. Charizard never struggled to deal damage as a result of stamina, which was a bigger deal for Squirtle and Ivysaur than weakened KO power, as well.



In my experience, that's not true at all. Charizard likely does the worst of the three. Punished out of grab release via U-Smash with comparatively fewer options to avoid it, he couldn't deal with Yoshi's horizontal air speed at all, Up-B really limited his approach options, Yoshi's hitboxes often went around or overpowered Rock Smash, and Charizard didn't have the pokes to compete up close...

The grab-release chain on Squirtle doesn't lead into a F-Air spike until 50-60% if you are good at mashing because Yoshi would slide off stage with you, he could actually combo Yoshi reasonably well, he could actually approach Yoshi reasonably well and press buttons against him, he stood a chance of juggling him off of launchers...

Ivysaur didn't get grab-released into guaranteed stuff (iirc), Yoshi's weight was ideal for large amounts of Bullet Seed damage, B-Air was solid for harassment if you had stage control, and Ivysaur was actually rather good at counterpoking Yoshi with her big hitboxes. An overextending Yoshi is often met with ridiculous hitboxes against Ivysaur.

The matchup wasn't very good for any of them, but Charizard left me feeling least hopeful when the matchup came up (which was often, as my older brother, who was #2 in AL when he was playing, used him a lot).

On the subject of Brawl, who would you say the best of the 3 was? How good would you think PT would be if stamina wasn't a thing (i know off topic, just wondering)

 

[Sinister Slush]

I know you asked him but it'd most likely be Squirtle easily first, not too sure on the other two but if I had to guess Charizard than Ivy since edgeguarding ivy was pretty easy cause tether only way to recover.

 

[Mario766]

Ike wasn't buffed from Brawl, he was buffed from 1.0.0 Smash 4.

Brawl Ike is about the same if not maybe even better than release Ike due to all the good things from Brawl Ike being nerfed heavily.

 

[LancerStaff]

It may be placebo but i feel that has more range than in brawl.

That's true, actually. Went from having less range then Smash 4 MK to outranging Marth on a bunch of attacks. Probably the most apparent range buff is to Bair. In Brawl, he just poked his blades out behind him. In Smash 4, he's reaching out backwards as far as he can while somehow pushing off of the air with his feet.

The nerfs were many. Every character got nerfed in some minor ways (other than damage which is too obvious) but there were definitely many major ones. I mean it makes sense, Brawl and Melee had a lot of broken-good moves. Smash 4 has almost none of that.

I think (in no order) were hit the hardest with MK and Marth getting it the worst IMO if you don't include the loss of chains grabs as a heavy factor.

We say some characters were buffed from Brawl to Smash 4 but that isn't entirely true. The biggest/only ways characters were "buffed" from Brawl to Smash 4 were: increased ranged by dumb disjoints, NOT getting nerfed damaged, and major mobility buffs. Pure frame data, though, was nerfed for every character.



All of these characters were nerfed in only a few ways but they mostly received "buffs" by some combination of character redesigns, range increases, major mobility buffs, NOT getting nerfed much in damage, kill power improvements, untouched landing lag and autocancels, game engine changes, or simply not changing much at all.

Brawl Pit was held back by MK as I understand it... Although Japan had him placed at 8th so I guess that's debatable. Like a lot of characters, he's received a ton of nerfs from Brawl, namely removing his old Uspecial. Wings of Icarus, or WoI henceforth, had tons of utility and tech come out of it. Since retconed to Wings of Pegasus but that's not relevant. Wingdashing, a pseudo wavedash for spacing which I believe had I-frames, WoI platform cancels, and wing refreshing which is giving Pit access to WoI agai while using it by brushing his feet along the ground. Yaknow how MK could glide twice? Pit could WoI out, glide back, and WoI again thanks to the glitch. WoI being omnidirectional flight that could be interrupted at any time with an aerial (even Bair with another tech) to begin with was kinda absurd.

Also notable was the nerf to his arrows, which appears to have come under the effect of MK nerf syndrome... Went from probably a tie for the best projectile to tenth at worst and yet people think it's trash now. Yeah, I think we all know how absurd Brawl arrows were, no need to elaborate on that... Also lost the angelic step technique, which would give Pit a burst of movement after a spotdodge depending on how quickly you interrupted it. (Like how spamming Marth's Utilt moves him forward, but more then that.) And this was in conjunction with Brawl spotdodges. Certain KO moves, Glair, Bair and the first hit of Dsmash, were much stronger (or, well, existed) as well.

I'm going to say Brawl Pit was the much stronger character overall, but if he were simply fixed like Falco was coming into SSB4 he'd be pretty terrible. It's a hard comparison because they're honestly not that similar... More or less Brawl Pit relied on ten or so moves to camp until it was safe to throw out Bairs and Dsmashes (which probably wasn't all that much slower then it is now), while Smash 4 Pit uses his whole moveset to fill whatever role is needed at any given moment. It's hard to find a move that hasn't been rehauled...

 

[Pazzo.]

Right, so, let me get into depth on this now.

The changes from brawl left a lot of us shaking our heads. Lucas was definitely streamlined, arguably 'dumbed down' to more or less a single playstyle. At least, his notable ATs were gone, burst movement options like zap jump / magnet pull were out of the picture and his AC windows gone meant he couldn't really 'weave' around the opponent like he used to be able to do. In addition, other nerfs like Dsmash now acting like Tatsumaki (hits once then no more hitboxes apply) and PKT end-lag were insult to injury.

Can't that statement be applied to most of the cast?

- Lost Bucket Braking.

- Lost DACUS, Short-Hop Laser.

- Lost Up-B shenanigans.

And so on and so forth, etc, etc.

 

[Rizen]

Somebody showed me that. Funnily enough, I made this video about ten minutes ago--

Rewriting the pastebin, actually, because there is something going on that I don't understand that makes many moves bypass this state for reasons unknown.

Good stuff. Is there a list of which hitboxes are strictly air or grounded? Can you post it?

 

[Ghostbone]

You're saying MK got hit harder than Falco, GnW, DDD? If I remember correctly MK is still high tier, and these characters got buffed worse. Heck, GnW and DDD both got hit harder than Marth too.

Sure MK only dropped like 7 spots in terms of the Brawl tier list to the Smash 4 tier list.
But Brawl MK was THAT GOOD, as well as the top tiers in this game not being that much better than the lower tiered characters that MK was definitely one of the hardest hit characters in terms of nerfs. (though D3 did get hit way harder yea)

Wasn't there a large argument that Diddy was nefed from brawl? because of the Banana loss? Not that I agree wholeheartedly with this, I am just wondering.

Diddy was nerfed heavily from Brawl, in terms of damage, kill power on d-smash, and his projectiles. Not to mention Brawl Diddy's ridiculous dash attack we've probably all forgotten about.

Obviously hoo-hah might have made up for that if we're talking about 1.0.4 Diddy (pretty sure you could vector out of it at kill %s in 3DS days?), I still don't even think 1.0.4 Diddy was better than Brawl Diddy. The much worse peanuts and bananas are a really big deal tbh, and no glide tossing is especially bad for Diddy.

Can't really judge characters in a vacuum though, 1.0.4 Diddy was obviously a lot more dominant in smash 4 than Brawl Diddy was in his game, so relatively Diddy was buffed. However smash 4 characters are generally just lower in power level than previous smash game top tiers.