Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Das Koopa]

Do we even know what frame Bayonetta's jab comes out at

Speculating on released characters is a bit different than unreleased characters, especially when it comes to things as specific as frames. We have no real idea of what Bayonetta will look like after being tested in tournies. We don't know her grab game, we don't know if she has true combos, we don't know if she has chains, we don't know if she has kill confirms, we don't know how abusable Witch Time will be, etc.

It's really hard to come out and say "Bayonetta's not even gonna be good" when we don't know the specifics of how she plays at a higher level. She and Corrin appear to have good movesets. That's the extent of our knowledge.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Because a character's jab frame defines how good they are.

That, and we don't know the ****ing frame data. :v

Smooth Criminal

 

[JesterJaded]

Does anyone else see Bayo's guns being almost as frustrating to deal with as Sheik's needles?

Also, her tilts and aerials don't seem to have particularly bad startup. Best not to call this one 'til the patch comes.

 

[Amadeus9]

gif was posted a few pages back. jab is at least frame 9 :v

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anyone else see Bayo's guns being almost as frustrating to deal with as Sheik's needles?

Also, her tilts and aerials don't seem to have particularly bad startup. Best not to call this one 'til the patch comes.

If you think Fox's Blaster is also as annoying as Needles then sure. Bullet Climax seems to always shoot at an upward trajectory so it's not exactly a standard long-range harassment either.

At the very least she does seem well-equipped to escape disadvantage.

 

[jespoke]

If you think Fox's Blaster is also as annoying as Needles then sure. Bullet Climax seems to always shoot at an upward trajectory so it's not exactly a standard long-range harassment either.

At the very least she does seem well-equipped to escape disadvantage.

Unless it is weaker than it looks, bullet climax will be no less problematic for the superheavies than needle spam, since they can't get close enough to punish it. Maybe Bowsers crawl is fast enough and the endlag long enough that he can use that, but then it is useless against any of the shorties

 

[Vyrnx]

@BlazGreen I actually really like Samus' jab and how much it changes her safety across percent ranges. At low percents it sucks, but at mid and up (the majority of stocks) it combos/is a safe keep away move. Other than being frame 3, it has one of the fastest FAFs of a jab 1 (18 FAF), only surpassed by Jiggs and Kirby, and tied with Falcon. It almost certainly has the best range of a fast jab 1, almost identical to her dtilt, which for those who don't know has great range. With the range and speed/safety on the move it saves Samus if her midrange starts to crumble. Jab combo at mid percents does 11 damage and has a tight tech window to avoid a CS, jab 1 covers Samus after an aerial, falling uair to jab 1 to fsmash is a kill confirm, it pushes opponents off the stage into tumble which can lead to edge guards, and is one of those, "when in doubt..." moves (past low percents, where it is an, "oh god why," move).

Samus is fully functional at cqc, between dtilt, jab, and up b oos. There are characters who actually have huge cqc issues that I can't stand to play as, but Samus has the startup frames that she isn't one of them.

I don't like when people say Samus is bad because, "x, y, z moves accumulate to the point that it makes her bad..." Characters can function without dsmashes, usmashes, side b, etc (although Samus' side b and usmash are functioning, usmash at this point is very reliable and kills at 110). the only one I question is how well a character functions with that grab. For sure I wouldn't mind seeing those moves buffed, but they aren't as big a factor as her landing and grab woes, for instance. She has big issues but it's not dsmash, etc that causes them.

 

[LancerStaff]

...has a long command grab...

Actually we don't know if it's a command grab. Haven't seen it hit a shield once.

i really dont think bayonetta is gonna be good guys. on the other hand, have you seen corrin? crazy

To be honest they both look terrible.

Pit F-tilt buffed 1%

As the person in charge of Pit's patch notes I gotta say that's not true. Actually I don't even remember anybody saying that...

 

[JesterJaded]

If you think Fox's Blaster is also as annoying as Needles then sure. Bullet Climax seems to always shoot at an upward trajectory so it's not exactly a standard long-range harassment either.

At the very least she does seem well-equipped to escape disadvantage.

I don't think that's a fair comparison. The bullets seem to be multi-hit and have knockback, whereas Fox's lazers do nothing to stop your approach.

 

[PK Gaming]

It would be hilarious if Cloud had to taunt for Limit Break finishing up; a 65 frame taunt showing "how much power" he has gained would make him more balanced. If not that, make it harder to charge up in every way; doubling the amount of time and halving how much he gets from being damaged and damaging would be better. Limit needs to be a "last resort" thing, not something you can whip out.

Tweaking ROB's laser to charge slower and his animation after shooting Gyro to have more endlag would be good to balance him.

And having Ryu's True Shoryu kill at 110% would be great, or tweaking his U-Tilt to not link together into itself would be wonderful.

At least those would balance the characters without ultimately shattering their strengths and viability.

 

[Solfiner]

To be honest they both look terrible.

Aaand this is where I leave this thread.

We are seriously fully judging two characters two days before they come out? We don't even know their frame data.

 

[RonNewcomb]

I'm flabbergasted at the Link mains calling for Ryu nerfs. Ryu himself is like, "I think the Shiek MU is OK, but that Link guy is too OP. His jab is ridiculous..." and he's the only person in the whole cast who can say that.

U-tilt silliness is silly of course, but the absolute most I'd ever do about TSRK is having weak u-tilt & d-tilt, on hit, insert TSRK into the stale moves queue.

But an ume-shoryu *should* kill you at 90. Cause it's punishable on block and on whiff.

 

[LancerStaff]

Aaand this is where I leave this thread.

We are seriously fully judging two characters two days before they come out? We don't even know their frame data.

>Posts impressions of characters
>Gets chewed out for said impressions
>Wonders if the thread title actually means anything

 

[Mr. Johan]

Corrin can play keepaway with SH Nair with how gigantic that move is, he can mount an offense by simply walking and Fsmashing at certain lengths (how the hell does Luigi get in on this character, with how fast Fsmash ends?), a very large and very quick and active Utilt for anti-air, Fair appears to autocancel, and unlike the forward facing variant, a pivot Dragon Lunge comes out instantly, providing an incredible crossup potential no one wants to lose to.

It's ironic. Everyone was hyped as holy Hera for Bayonetta and preparing for her to be jank while Corrin barely made a blip, and now the opposite has happened.

 

[jespoke]

As the person in charge of Pit's patch notes I gotta say that's not true. Actually I don't even remember anybody saying that...

I'm sorry, i mixed up what i read where and let misinformation into my post im sorry

 

[Smooth Criminal]

gif was posted a few pages back. jab is at least frame 9 :v

Pretty sure a gif doesn't tell us jack ****. That's not how you capture/measure frame data.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Amadeus9]

Uh, yeah it is

You watch the ****ing animation

and see which frame the attack comes out

Dunno whats so hard to understand about that, this is literally how we found frame data before we started mining ****.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Impressions are not the same as speculation.

 

[LancerStaff]

Corrin can play keepaway with SH Nair with how gigantic that move is, he can mount an offense by simply walking and Fsmashing at certain lengths (how the hell does Luigi get in on this character, with how fast Fsmash ends?), a very large and very quick and active Utilt for anti-air, Fair appears to autocancel, and unlike the forward facing variant, a pivot Dragon Lunge comes out instantly, providing an incredible crossup potential no one wants to lose to.

It's ironic. Everyone was hyped as holy Hera for Bayonetta and preparing for her to be jank while Corrin barely made a blip, and now the opposite has happened.

Not exactly impressive to keep Luigi of all characters out...

Pretty sure a gif doesn't tell us jack ****. That's not how you capture/measure frame data.

Smooth Criminal

It's 60fps, has a definite first frame, and the visual comes out on f9. Unless Bayo's to active frames to what Falcon is to hitboxes it really can't be that far off.

 

[Nobie]

Oh, some Bayonetta things from the Niconico broadcast according to Sakurai (he was commentating during the match:

Air Side B has different properties if you angle it up or down. Up-angled is good for combos, Down-angled I'm not entirely sure what he's saying but it looks to be more Falcon Kick-esque.

Bayonetta is supposed to be very light.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Uh, yeah it is

You watch the ****ing animation

and see which frame the attack comes out

Dunno whats so hard to understand about that, this is literally how we found frame data before we started mining ****.

Pretty sure before we tested it by means of manual input and video capture, not vicariously through footage.

It could be slower for all we know, ffs.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Man Li Gi]

Because a character's jab frame defines how good they are.

Can't think of a conceivable top tier without a quick CQC option as jab. IIRC all the top tiers have a frame 4 or faster jab. Without a quick get off me option like jab, then you're kinda built to not play in CQC or handle pressure. Handling pressure is key to a win.

 

[Latias]

Not exactly impressive to keep Luigi of all characters out...



It's 60fps, has a definite first frame, and the visual comes out on f9. Unless Bayo's to active frames to what Falcon is to hitboxes it really can't be that far off.

I'm going to laugh when Corrin is a better character than Pit, you're the most pessimistic person I've ever seen.

 

[Vipermoon]

Uh, yeah it is

You watch the ****ing animation

and see which frame the attack comes out

Dunno whats so hard to understand about that, this is literally how we found frame data before we started mining ****.

Looking at that, that could easily hit on frame 8 (or even 7 if they felt like it), it's just frame 9 that happened to hit Corrin there.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Looking at that, that could easily hit on frame 8 (or even 7 if they felt like it), it's just frame 9 that happened to hit Corrin there.

Exactly. We don't even know how many active frames it has.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Amadeus9]

lol you are all in such denial. you dont get away with a yoshi tier roll + an awful jab at top tier, or even high tier. You can say im being premature all you want but when there's a post on reddit in 2 months wondering why a "potential top 5 fighter" has no representation at top level you can come back to me :^)

 

[apparently fuz]

Can't think of a conceivable top tier without a quick CQC option as jab. IIRC all the top tiers have a frame 4 or faster jab. Without a quick get off me option like jab, then you're kinda built to not play in CQC or handle pressure. Handling pressure is key to a win.

Rosaluma has a frame 8 jab IIRC and she's considered what, top 5?

A decent CQC option doesn't necessarily have to be jab, and jab isn't the only move that determines a character's disadvantage state. Bat Within or any other of Bayonetta's specials could potentially double as a pressure escaping tool.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Amadeus9

It's not even that, bro.

It's just...we don't know jack **** yet. That's the angle I'm coming from. I don't even care how it turns out in the end, whether Bayo is **** or not.

Smooth Criminal

 

[blackghost]

Do we even know what frame Bayonetta's jab comes out at

Speculating on released characters is a bit different than unreleased characters, especially when it comes to things as specific as frames. We have no real idea of what Bayonetta will look like after being tested in tournies. We don't know her grab game, we don't know if she has true combos, we don't know if she has chains, we don't know if she has kill confirms, we don't know how abusable Witch Time will be, etc.

It's really hard to come out and say "Bayonetta's not even gonna be good" when we don't know the specifics of how she plays at a higher level. She and Corrin appear to have good movesets. That's the extent of our knowledge.

actually its fairly easy to see who will be good based on movesets. based on the data we've learned about how the best characters on the game functionat a high level. bayonetta has pressure at range and can get damage fairly easily, has mobility, good recovery, and creativity in combos: all triats that is in one high tier or another. but she is also coming with potentially the best counter meanig she can play at many different paces. she may not be a new shiek but saying she won't be good is a stretch. she has all the tools to be good.

 

[C0rvus]

From what I've seen, we know that Bayonetta has a slow jab. Her dash speed and air speed look unimpressive, so does her roll. Looks like Sakurai is really trying to compensate for he abilities. How strong her combos are, and how effective Bullet Arts are will basically determine her viability. She could end up being mediocre, but her mechanics seem very strong. Bullet arts and her low lag nair look like short hop lasers lol. Maybe bullet arts increase landing lag? Idk.

Corrin's f-smash range starts short if uncharged and gets longer with more charge. This leads me to believe all 3 of his smashes behave the same way. It makes sense, because the up smash I've seen was uncharged and it had pretty poor range. How well he can kill will determine his viability, and I am worried about it. If that spreadsheet is right, hitting with side special looks to do a LOT of damage.

I just want this new patch, man. Sick of being in limbo.

 

[LancerStaff]

We're back right? Running a little slow right now but whatever...

I'm going to laugh when Corrin is a better character than Pit, you're the most pessimistic person I've ever seen.

I remember when somebody said the same thing about Roy... And Cloud, hehehe.

Looking at that, that could easily hit on frame 8 (or even 7 if they felt like it), it's just frame 9 that happened to hit Corrin there.

F7 is still booty though.

Rosaluma has a frame 8 jab IIRC and she's considered what, top 5?

A decent CQC option doesn't necessarily have to be jab, and jab isn't the only move that determines a character's disadvantage state. Bat Within or any other of Bayonetta's specials could potentially double as a pressure escaping tool.

Rosalina makes up for it with the f5 Dtilt. Don't think we've seen anything that fast on Bayo, but with how important it'd be you'd think somebody would of pointed it out by now... Her frame data being bad seems to be a very key point. If everything else is Dorf level, well, you'd better hope Witch Time is OP.

 

[Das Koopa]

lol you are all in such denial. you dont get away with a yoshi tier roll + an awful jab at top tier, or even high tier. You can say im being premature all you want but when there's a post on reddit in 2 months wondering why a "potential top 5 fighter" has no representation at top level you can come back to me :^)

if you're here to just be right you really shouldn't be here at all

nobody will care if you're right especially when you have a bad attitude about it

 

[Smog Frog]

why is it that jabs are the universal gtfo move? have we forgotten about good oos and other non-traditional ways of escaping pressure? in particular could be absolutely terrifying with oos, witch twist seems like it'd lead into big damage and it seems large as it doesnt leave you in helpless.

if anybody can get the frame data on witch twist and witch time/bat within that'd be great.

 

[Rizen]

I'm flabbergasted at the Link mains calling for Ryu nerfs. Ryu himself is like, "I think the Shiek MU is OK, but that Link guy is too OP. His jab is ridiculous..." and he's the only person in the whole cast who can say that.

But an ume-shoryu *should* kill you at 90. Cause it's punishable on block and on whiff.

What?

You know shoryu can be confirmed into right?

 

[Radical Larry]

why is it that jabs are the universal gtfo move? have we forgotten about good oos and other non-traditional ways of escaping pressure? in particular could be absolutely terrifying with oos, witch twist seems like it'd lead into big damage and it seems large as it doesnt leave you in helpless.

if anybody can get the frame data on witch twist and witch time/bat within that'd be great.

Link's Spin Attack is a better GTFO move than his jab. It starts up faster than his jab.
Sometimes his D-Smash, I find, can be a good GTFO move.

 

[FullMoon]

I thought Cloud is being largely thought of as a better character than Pit.

 

[Wintropy]

Cloud is almost definitely better than Pit, at least right now. Quite a few people think Pit is sitting pretty outside the Top 10 / within Top 15 range right now, but I don't think it's unreasonable to say Cloud is a couple of spots higher than him. Boy gets great reward for the effort you have to put in and his representation one month on is through the roof.

It's very possible he'll be nerfed in the near future, but until then, it's naive to ignore the writing on the wall. You all know how optimistic I am about Pit, but I won't pretend Cloud isn't every bit as good and probably better.

EDIT: 'd by...

...well, this is ironic.

Re: Corrin and Bayo, I'm optimistic about them too. My biggest fear was that Bayo would be another character with overtuned and polarising kill confirms and that Corrin would be mediocre at best - and while it's very possible they may still be both of those things (goodness knows we were dead wrong about Cloud, even after he was initially released), the evidence suggests they're on the right track to being functioning and healthy characters.

We'll see how it goes. I'm not going to make any baseless claims I can't possibly justify, I'm just going by first impressions.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Honestly, we can barely agree on anything regarding characters that have been in this game for over a year. To argue over 2 unreleased characters is foolish.

 

[LancerStaff]

I thought Cloud is being largely thought of as a better character than Pit.

Didn't say everybody thought he was, but everybody's riding the hype still so... Edit: Forgot to add that note to my last post. And forgot this one to this post.

I really don't think Cloud's better myself, but I don't see Corrin being better then either of them.

 

[Shaya]

Good Morning.

Wrap up your silly/special/lovable speculah conversations now and forever hold your peace, for "soon".