Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Y2Kay]

"We've" is a lot different than "You've"

"You've" is a lot different than "Y'all"

 

[S_B]

"We've" is a lot different than "You've"

Someone else mentioned it pages back as well. If this IS the last balance patch, we hope it levels the playing field a bit (and yes, I mean WE ).

So, let's discuss something different. I remember Sakurai mentioning once he was disappointed to not see Side Smash moves be finishing moves, but rather that weak moves do it. Do you think the meta might get to where this is a riskier, but kill earlier method than standard aerial KO's that's actually viable?

It's when he says stuff like this that I suspect he hardly watches tournaments at all.

Competitive SSB4 is extremely kill-confirm centric, and I don't think that'll be changing any time soon as the goal of the game is to KO your opponents, and if a character can do that quickly, safely, and reliably, they excel. Obviously, there's more to it than that, but getting the kill is the bottom line, here.

Smash attacks typically require a read, often a very, VERY good one, and they're also usually extremely risky to use because of how punishable they are. He shouldn't be the least bit surprised that people opt to use safer abilities in lieu of risky ones, especially when the safer ones get the job done while exposing you to very little risk.

This is fighting game design 101, really...

 

[R3D3MON]

So, let's discuss something different. I remember Sakurai mentioning once he was disappointed to not see Side Smash moves be finishing moves, but rather that weak moves do it. Do you think the meta might get to where this is a riskier, but kill earlier method than standard aerial KO's that's actually viable?

No because you said it yourself: aerial KO's are actually viable. Furthermore, in smash a lot of times killing comes down to having the most setups, not just having a strong side smash or w/e (I thought this was pretty basic stuff...). Many characters in smash 4 already require risky reads and smash attacks usage in order to get kills because they lack viable setups. The "side smash method" you described already happens with reads, and the only situation where I see it being less riskier than usual is during ledgeguarding situations where opponents need to get back on-stage. Meta will most likely not favor any more risky finish attempts since they inherently require you to take a risk, and depending on the character that risk might lead to you getting punished severely, including stock losses.

tl;dr safety > risk, so aerial k.o. setups and other k.o. setups will be favored over riskier smash setups in the future meta(it already does this anyway).

 

[Radical Larry]

Starting to get excited for the changes in 1.1.4, and I'm hoping for more buffs on Link like he's always been getting.
U-Tilt dealing 11% damage for its speed or having faster speed for its power would be very nice.
F-Smash Hit 1 having no set knockback to link up into the second attack would be nice, and having it as a viable kill option is better.
Removing D-Air's meteor hitbox and replacing it all with the Brawl damage and knockback scaling would be good, as long as Link has the same endlag and landing lag from this game.
2 to 4 frame faster grab anyone?
Faster F-Air?

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

 

[JesterJaded]

The only way I see F-smashes being even remotely as viable kill options as aerials / etc. is if they have confirms a la Shoryuken.

 

[Radical Larry]

The only way I see F-smashes being even remotely as viable kill options as aerials / etc. is if they have confirms a la Shoryuken.

Would Link have the F-Smash confirm off of Jab? Or would that be his Spin Attack having some possible confirm?

 

[JesterJaded]

Would Link have the F-Smash confirm off of Jab? Or would that be his Spin Attack having some possible confirm?

I was under the impression that the first hit of Bair confirms into Spin Attack. Is that not true?

I suppose jab confirming into Spin Attack would be pretty neat as well, certainly making him more of a threat at close range once the opponent gets in while still not being as ridiculous as ZSS's frame 1 jab.

Or giving them tremendous power, moderate startup, but little ending lag so they are 'safe' once theyve been deployed. Smashes that fit this description get more use and thus more kills. Of course theres no reason to use a move that is horribly punisbable unless it hits, that is also avoidable on reaction. I mean, fsmashes are in a great place in this game imo. They see more usage than before, but arent the cornerstone of a strategy.

I was considering the opposite, actually; give them little startup, moderate power (but stronger than their other options), and significant ending lag, and have tilts confirm into them.

 

[Megamang]

Or giving them tremendous power, moderate startup, but little ending lag so they are 'safe' once theyve been deployed. Smashes that fit this description get more use and thus more kills. Of course theres no reason to use a move that is horribly punisbable unless it hits, that is also avoidable on reaction. I mean, fsmashes are in a great place in this game imo. They see more usage than before, but arent the cornerstone of a strategy.

 

[Charoite]

I dont think the dev team would nerf sheik too hard, if anything i think that they would only nerf needles and maybe tweak vanish but outside of that i doubt they want to touch sheik too much, some of you should lower their expectation in how much less sheik you gonna see in top tournaments if sheik is nerfed, remember she is still gonna be top tier she wouldn't disappear of tournaments.

 

[Kofu]

Or giving them tremendous power, moderate startup, but little ending lag so they are 'safe' once theyve been deployed. Smashes that fit this description get more use and thus more kills. Of course theres no reason to use a move that is horribly punisbable unless it hits, that is also avoidable on reaction. I mean, fsmashes are in a great place in this game imo. They see more usage than before, but arent the cornerstone of a strategy.

USmash anyone? It's not super strong but when his whole head has invincibility for most of the move and it only has 14 frames of cooldown it kind of fits this mold.

 

[Radical Larry]

I was under the impression that the first hit of Bair confirms into Spin Attack. Is that not true?

I suppose jab confirming into Spin Attack would be pretty neat as well, certainly making him more of a threat at close range once the opponent gets in while still not being as ridiculous as ZSS's frame 1 jab.

I think he can get some confirms from Jab > Jab and to Spin Attack. Spin Attack comes out so incredibly fast and has some good power, and with Link's Jab 2 having potential set ups, it'd be good to know that Spin Attack is a good option after it.

Secondly, Link's N-Air, when it hits on the late hitbox behind Link, causes the opponent to have so little knockback that when Link performs a backward roll, he can confirm into F-Tilt and F-Smash. It's a very good thing that I'm often seen using when the opportunity arises. It's very good at getting kill confirms and it's actually very easy to pull off and a viable option.

 

[Krysco]

Starting to get excited for the changes in 1.1.4, and I'm hoping for more buffs on Link like he's always been getting.
U-Tilt dealing 11% damage for its speed or having faster speed for its power would be very nice.
F-Smash Hit 1 having no set knockback to link up into the second attack would be nice, and having it as a viable kill option is better.
Removing D-Air's meteor hitbox and replacing it all with the Brawl damage and knockback scaling would be good, as long as Link has the same endlag and landing lag from this game.
2 to 4 frame faster grab anyone?
Faster F-Air?

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

I actually find it interesting that you mention wanting Link's dair changed back to its Brawl form when there was an entire picture of the day dedicated towards showing how it was given a meteor effect.

"Sakurai said:
«Link's downward strike was designed to change to a Meteor Smash when the tip of the sword is aligned just right at the start. However, it will be removed if it's deemed too powerful overall after some multiplayer play tests.» 06.Nov.2013"

Guess if you want that moved changed, Sakurai will need to believe that it's 'too powerful' in multiplayer.

 

[S_B]

The only way I see F-smashes being even remotely as viable kill options as aerials / etc. is if they have confirms a la Shoryuken.

Yeah, if Sakurai is really saying things like this, then...I don't know what to think about him any longer.

Namco must really be the ones behind the balance of this game because, despite some of the overtuned characters, it's STILL the most balanced SSB game to date.

But if Sakurai doesn't understand why people don't use Fsmashes but instead rely upon safer options...? I just...yeah...

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

Ganon will get a throw followup. Maybe D3 as well.

 

[Deathcarter]

Or giving them tremendous power, moderate startup, but little ending lag so they are 'safe' once theyve been deployed. Smashes that fit this description get more use and thus more kills. Of course theres no reason to use a move that is horribly punisbable unless it hits, that is also avoidable on reaction. I mean, fsmashes are in a great place in this game imo. They see more usage than before, but arent the cornerstone of a strategy.

*Ike mains proceed to cry in the corner*

 

[Fatmanonice]

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

Villager gains the ability to pocket Luma and use it for himself.

 

[C0rvus]

I want to be able to pummel Rosalina again.

 

[Dagon97]

I want characters like or to become more unique as their own character. Their character specific combos or neutral options will be cool. Akin to .

 

[S_B]

Villager gains the ability to pocket Luma and use it for himself.

Oh god, yes...

And Kirby gets the ability to summon a Luma by pressing B after stealing Rosa's ability that fights with him just like Rosa's Luma does... :D

 

[JesterJaded]

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

A decent autocancel on Lucas' Nair would work wonders for his cross-ups and combos, but other than that I'm satisfied with the character.

Give Jigglypuff a buff. Any buff. Even if it's just Smash attacks, plz Sakurai just show you care.

 

[Mario766]

F-Smashes shouldn't be safe when used. They should be risky options that lead to big hits, that when used properly with a read lead to early stocks. The characters with super good F-smashes, like MK, get best of both worlds but that shouldn't be the norm, but the outlier.

Big reward, big risk.

 

[Charoite]

guys you are going off topic, wishing for buffs or nerfs is not for this thread.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm expecting another weird Shulk buff. Like maybe an actually decent dash attack. The current one is nice for burst movement in Shield and that's about it. It kinda reminds me of Ike's (Surprise!) old dash attack in that it doesn't kill well and it's really slow.

 

[Rizen]

The only way I see F-smashes being even remotely as viable kill options as aerials / etc. is if they have confirms a la Shoryuken.

Like Smash Brother said they require a read but it's not like Fsmash KOs don't happen. I've been watching matches from tourneys with big names like Nairo and you do see Fsmash KOs. Not as the main ko options but they have their place in the meta. ATs like pivots and other footsies aid Fsmashes a lot.

 

[Jehtt]

Yellow Topics include things that, without context, risk diverting the topic away from characters or boil down to opinion. You may talk about Yellow Topics, but if and only if you can tie each one back to a Green Topic in the same post. (If you are doing it right, this should be entirely organic and you shouldn't have to worry about it.)

• Hypothetical Changes
  • Includes patch wishes

Make sure you're staying on topic, guys.

EDIT: I realize this may seem hypocritical, so I'll try to talk about Ganondorf for a minute.
I think it would take more than simple buffs to his moves to make him a good character. Even if his frame data was better, he would still have severe issues with getting out-camped and getting gimped. The reason Melee Ganon was a decent character was because he was pretty quick on his feet for hitting as hard as he did.
I like Ganondorf's side B; it gives an otherwise slow character with a bad grab a threatening burst mobility command grab. What if they made it untechable again like it was in Brawl? Would that help the character at all, or would his core issues still overtake him?

 

[Teshie U]

Side B doesn't need to be untechable, nothing wrong with having to read your opponent a little for the next hit, especially when it could be so devastating.

Wizkick or Dash attack need trample (wont clank) so they can plow through weak attacks.

His frame data is kind of okay, but some of his moves need properties that make them worth the wait.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Make sure you're staying on topic, guys.

EDIT: I realize this may seem hypocritical, so I'll try to talk about Ganondorf for a minute.
I think it would take more than simple buffs to his moves to make him a good character. Even if his frame data was better, he would still have severe issues with getting out-camped and getting gimped. The reason Melee Ganon was a decent character was because he was pretty quick on his feet for hitting as hard as he did.
I like Ganondorf's side B; it gives an otherwise slow character with a bad grab a threatening burst mobility command grab. What if they made it untechable again like it was in Brawl? Would that help the character at all, or would his core issues still overtake him?

It would definitely help, but the big issue is that its utility varies greatly depending on the character you're fighting. It would make for a devastating kill confirm on many characters, even guaranteeing a Dsmash kill confirm on Olimar at around 60%. Unfortunately it would still guarantee nothing on the likes of Sheik. So unless it also gave him the same frame advantage on everyone it would just be even more polarizing on a character by character basis. Ganondorf's current main issues with approaching outside of basic design issues like his frame and mobility include poor OOS options when Ganondorf is frequently forced into shield, trouble spacing aerials against shorter characters, and poor options for covering away rolls. Of course some way to make Choke more consistent for him would be quite valuable, or otherwise improving his grab/throws as an alternative, but changes to Choke alone probably wouldn't do much in a lot of his unfavorable MUs since most of them don't get hit by Choke easily anyways. Wizkick being stronger would probably do more for helping him to get in, since it can punish a lot of things Choke barely misses out on. Also buffs to OOS options like jab, grab, and Dark Dive would be valuable as well since he has to approach with shield so much.

 

[HoSmash4]

The only way I see F-smashes being even remotely as viable kill options as aerials / etc. is if they have confirms a la Shoryuken.

Mk would like to have a word with you.

 

[Chuva]

Not Just MK...

-Toon Link and Diddy can hit confirm their Fsmashes from their projectiles
-Pits have a very usable long-ranged Fsmash that doubles as a spotdodge punisher
-Retreating pivot Fsmash is a viable option for both Zelda and Lil Mac as it's relatively hard to punish when spaced
-Rosalina Fsmash is a very strong whiff punisher because of the range of the Luma hitbox
-Villager is well known for his Fsmash edgeguard

Then you have characters with traps that can possibly set-up their Fsmashes if their opponent makes a bad read, like Marth jab, Mario aerial strings, Lucas frame traps, abovementioned Rosalina etc.

I'd say most Fsmashes serves their purpose, although some of them could definitely use a few quality of life changes to be more functional (such as Palutena)

 

[HoSmash4]

Smashes arent designed to be safe and into kill confirms like aerials are but rather as hard punish tools for reading a roll/spotdodge/bad landing.

Every character has a smash that serves this purpose, although DHD/Palutena's smashes are pretty damn bad.

 

[Nobie]

In the transition from Street Fighter IV to Street Fighter V, Capcom made a huge change to hit confirms.

In Street Fighter IV, your most reliable combo starter was your jab, which meant that your quickest attack was also your best means of dealing damage.

In SFV, they've made it so that light attacks do not combo, while medium and heavy attacks do. In other words, you have to choose between being safe and poking while dealing little damage, or taking a bit of a risk to confirm into big damage through slower setup attacks.

While I doubt that Smash will make such a huge change at this point, I don't think the idea of "I wish people used Smash Attacks more to finish off opponents" is that crazy.

Another note: I recall that one of the changes that Sakurai wanted from Melee to Brawl was more aerial battles (hence the reduced falling speed, air dodges, etc.). Well, Nairo vs. Abadango was aerial as hell, so...

 

[Kofu]

I think that Sakurai was basically saying that Side Smashes are intended to be KOing moves and to not see them used for that purprose (or at all) makes them something of a wasted move a good chunk of the time, not that people are specifically using aerials to kill.

This whole discussion is seems very pertinent to Mii Brawler. Practically all of his KO power in his normals is loaded into his FSmash. Thing is, it's a terrible move. It hits on something like frame 18, doesn't linger, has pretty bad range (a problem with Brawler overall) and has horrid end lag. Its damage isn't even that impressive (18-20% depending on size). But it really does hit like a truck and would allow for some very early KOs... if it was ever really confirmable. They even took some KO power off of his BAir a few patches back (not that it was that powerful before, probably comparable to Sheik's before her nerf). Now the only one of his aerials that KOs is DAir, either meteor offstage or the sourspot (which is oddly strong).

That said, most characters tend to have some use for their FSmash. Certain ones can catch landings very well. A lot of them have the most horizontal range of the character's kit. They also function as more committal roll punishes though this becomes less pertinent at higher levels of gameplay.

 

[wpwood]

Controversial opinion time.

IMO, as a whole is about as dumb than pre-patch , maybe even moreso, because pre-patch Luigi was never actually *that* good.

Everything a swordsman could ever need, on top of incredibly generous auto-cancels, which leads to being incredibly easy to play.

Nair and Dair combined protect him from almost all aerial challenges against most characters apart from a select few.

Limit is free as ****, no reason you shouldn't be getting this at least three times a game.

Recovery is mediocre but unless you get sent at an unfortunate angle you can often just double jump back to the stage/air dodge right into Up-B, which removes most of the risk.

Love and respect to all the Cloud mains in this thread, you all are hard workers and are innovating for an entirely new character. I don't mean to demean your effort. I think this character is legit bonkers.

In one of his interviews he does Sakurai said: "Cloud is a popular character so I was sure a lot of people would want to play him, so I made him easy to play." I may have a few words wrong but you get the general idea. He's an easy to pick up character and through time people will figure out a counter to his game play.

I want better frame data for Palutena. Maybe faster air speed too, but we'll see what Sakurai has planned come Wednesday.

Palutena's smashes are pretty damn bad.

Amazing reach, a little weak, and terrible end lag. They're decent but could use some buffs. But I don't think Palutena players use up smash the way it was intended. Palu has great aerials so I think we feel we should go into the air and go after them, but we could just as easily stay on the ground and throw out that up smash. Something new to work on I guess.

EDIT: Palu also has a pseudo-frame trap with jab 1 > jab 1 (repeat as necessary) > f-smash or up smash

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I had a discussion with someone about who needs a nerf more, and honestly I think ZSS does. Sure, Sheik has better Matchups and is easily the best, but sheik just controls the pace of the game. She has to consistently outplay you (even if her tools are amazing), while ZSS needs to outplay you a single time to end a stock at virtually any percent. It doesn't matter who's the best, having a character that can abruptly ends the pace and momentum of the match at any point is more... Problematic? (Idk what word to use) than the character who controls the pace.

 

[Luco]

But if Sakurai doesn't understand why people don't use Fsmashes but instead rely upon safer options...? I just...yeah...

Hold on there friend, I've read the quote (it was actually linked here not that long ago) and in it Sakurai expresses that he understands why and how the game is played in that way, he just finds it a bit of a waste.

That being said I would be surprised if his opinion hasn't changed slightly since mid-2014 when he said that, seeing as he's been attending some big tournaments and seems pretty happy with it all.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Dedede can trap people into landing into his Smashes with Gordo...or even hit confirm into his amazing fsmash with a ledge-stick Gordo (and bad DI on your opponent's part), so I guess add that to the list of characters with confirms into smashes.

I do think it's a good thing to consider giving some characters, as it's a nice bit of flavor. For example, Diddy's smashes off of dtilt/bananas, or jab -> smash some characters (Fox) have.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

In the transition from Street Fighter IV to Street Fighter V, Capcom made a huge change to hit confirms.

In Street Fighter IV, your most reliable combo starter was your jab, which meant that your quickest attack was also your best means of dealing damage.

In SFV, they've made it so that light attacks do not combo, while medium and heavy attacks do. In other words, you have to choose between being safe and poking while dealing little damage, or taking a bit of a risk to confirm into big damage through slower setup attacks.

While I doubt that Smash will make such a huge change at this point, I don't think the idea of "I wish people used Smash Attacks more to finish off opponents" is that crazy.

Another note: I recall that one of the changes that Sakurai wanted from Melee to Brawl was more aerial battles (hence the reduced falling speed, air dodges, etc.). Well, Nairo vs. Abadango was aerial as hell, so...

Did they just nerf hitstun on light hits so that you can't get combos off of them, or did they add some sort of special anti-combo property to them?

 

[BlazGreen]

Anyone have their dream predictions for buffs?

Here's a general idea of what I'd like to see. Bare in mind that I'm a scrub and I'm just basing this on what Ive seen and heard.


Minor Nerfs


I don't want any of these characters nerfed into the ground but I feel like they're just overtuned a little too much compared with everyone else. Metaknight may seem out of place to some but I think further optimisation would make this character very scary if left untouched.

Keep The Same


I feel like these characters have the capability of going far in major tournaments if solo mained especially if the previously listed characters get nerfed. I was tempted to put Diddy in the nerf list too as I think he's top 5 and could indirectly become the best character in the game again if the others are nerfed, but I don't see anything too ridiculous about him. He's just a very solid character with the tools he needs to do well.

Minor Buffs


These characters have the potential to do well but usually have a few too many things holding them back to break into the higher tiers. A few tweaks here and there could do wonders for some of these guys and the top tiers being nerfed will also indirectly buff everyone here as well.

Major Buffs


And now we get to the characters that need all the help they can get. Whether it's bad frame data, terrible hitboxes, an awful neutral or a combination of all three and more, these guys just aren't that good and sadly for some of these characters I can see no way out unless they get a complete overhaul.

Unsure


Little Mac and Lucario are such deliberately overtuned characters that I would be scared to buff them too much but if you leave them alone while everyone around them gets buffed then they're going to suffer greatly. I'm honestly not sure what to do with these two. Cloud is fine in singles and I was going to put him in the unchanged list but then I remembered that he's incredibly dumb in doubles. I guess he probably does need a nerf in some way which is shame because it will hurt his singles game a bit. As for the Miis, I simply don't have enough knowledge about them to reach any conclusion. There's also the problem of Mii rulesets never being set in stone and their viability is pretty much reliant on which rules are in play.

 

[Vipermoon]

Here's a general idea of what I'd like to see. Bare in mind that I'm a scrub and I'm just basing this on what Ive seen and heard.


Minor Nerfs


I don't want any of these characters nerfed into the ground but I feel like they're just overtuned a little too much compared with everyone else. Metaknight may seem out of place to some but I think further optimisation would make this character very scary if left untouched.

Keep The Same


I feel like these characters have the capability of going far in major tournaments if solo mained especially if the previously listed characters get nerfed. I was tempted to put Diddy in the nerf list too as I think he's top 5 and could indirectly become the best character in the game again if the others are nerfed, but I don't see anything too ridiculous about him. He's just a very solid character with the tools he needs to do well.

Minor Buffs


These characters have the potential to do well but usually have a few too many things holding them back to break into the higher tiers. A few tweaks here and there could do wonders for some of these guys and the top tiers being nerfed will also indirectly buff everyone here as well.

Major Buffs


And now we get to the characters that need all the help they can get. Whether it's bad frame data, terrible hitboxes, an awful neutral or a combination of all three and more, these guys just aren't that good and sadly for some of these characters I can see no way out unless they get a complete overhaul.

Unsure


Little Mac and Lucario are such deliberately overtuned characters that I would be scared to buff them too much but if you leave them alone while everyone around them gets buffed then they're going to suffer greatly. I'm honestly not sure what to do with these two. Cloud is fine in singles and I was going to put him in the unchanged list but then I remembered that he's incredibly dumb in doubles. I guess he probably does need a nerf in some way which is shame because it will hurt his singles game a bit. As for the Miis, I simply don't have enough knowledge about them to reach any conclusion. There's also the problem of Mii rulesets never being set in stone and their viability is pretty much reliant on which rules are in play.

Marth is in the major buffs group no doubt. And if you guys think that 2% damage buff in his Fair will be enough to change anything (other than improve his already good match-ups), you're wrong. We'll see what they did Wednesday.

 

[Radical Larry]

BlazGreen Please be joking when you put Ryu, R.O.B. and Sonic on "Keep the Same", especially Ryu.

 

[Browny]

People freaking out over how strong Witch Time looks seem to have forgotten what its like when Shulk uses vision.