Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Jaguar360]

My point is that when I look at the opinions from this thread, they believe Greninja is higher than popular opinion (B-tier as opposed to mid tier), citing a lack of representation. Despite this, they believe Yoshi is lower than popular opinion (B-tier as opposed to top 10) citing a lack of results. If we can excuse Greninja's lacking results, why can't we do the same for Yoshi?

EDIT: Removed Ness because his results actually are pretty good after looking them up, bringing me to this:

Now, I know I mentioned Ness earlier, but after doing some research I think he does have good enough results to justify being considered at top 10. FOW got 7th at EVO, and Shaky has 7th at CEO, 5th at Paragon, and some other less-significant results such as 17th at Apex and 25th at EVO.

Well, I don't really believe people think that Ness or Yoshi is mid tier for one thing, especially Ness. The general perception of Ness in this thread is that he's either near the bottom of top 10 or somewhere in top 15 since he's gotten good results from FOW, Shaky and Nakat in the past. People just don't think he's as strong as he once was, especially since the patch hurt his OoS game.

Now for the first paragraph, Yoshi has decent enough rep, but doesn't get the results you'd expect from a high or top tier. He seems to get top 32 placings at some majors every now and then, but it's never notable. There's 3 notable Yoshi players in Japan (Aiba and I forget the names of the other two), but I haven't seen them crack top 8 at a national or anything (correct me if I'm wrong). Greninja, on the other hand, barely has rep in the first place, so he's obviously going to have less results than the other characters. However, there are Greninja players doing work, especially in other countries with Some and iStudying. NinjaLink also has a really good Greninja as far as US goes, though I haven't been keeping track of his results with Greninja.

Also, from playing both characters, Greninja seems to have a higher ceiling than Yoshi does. Greninja has so many advanced techniques to work with, better mobility to complement those techniques and the footstool combos are obviously amazing. That's not to discredit Yoshi; he has a ton to work with like every technique that applies to Egg Lay and he benefits from a few of the movement techs that Greninja does while still having great overall mobility, but it's not like Greninja's potential.

EDIT: Oh and Peach is definitely really good, no theory needed here. SlayerZ wins and other performances + Umeki's results in Japan say enough. Solid high tier.

 

[Peppermint1201]

Well, I don't really believe people think that Ness or Yoshi is mid tier for one thing, especially Ness. The general perception of Ness in this thread is that he's either near the bottom of top 10 or somewhere in top 15 since he's gotten good results from FOW, Shaky and Nakat in the past. People just think he's as strong as he once was, especially since the patch hurt his OoS game.

Now for the first paragraph, Yoshi has decent enough rep, but doesn't get the results you'd expect from a high or top tier. He seems to get top 32 placings at some majors every now and then, but it's never notable. There's 3 notable Yoshi players in Japan (Aiba and I forget the names of the other two), but I haven't seen them crack top 8 at a national or anything (correct me if I'm wrong). Greninja, on the other hand, barely has rep in the first place, so he's obviously going to have less results than the other characters. However, there are Greninja players doing work, especially in other countries with Some and iStudying. NinjaLink also has a really good Greninja as far as US goes, though I haven't been keeping track of his results with Greninja.

Also, from playing both characters, Greninja seems to have a higher ceiling than Yoshi does. Greninja has so many advanced techniques to work with, better mobility to complement those techniques and the footstool combos are obviously amazing. That's not to discredit Yoshi; he has a ton to work with like every technique that applies to Egg Lay and he benefits from a few of the movement techs that Greninja does while still having great overall mobility, but it's not like Greninja's potential.

EDIT: Oh and Peach is definitely really good, no theory needed here. SlayerZ wins and other performances + Umeki's results in Japan say enough. Solid high tier.

Now that I've thought about it I agree. I can't really justify Yoshi being that good considering his lackluster results worldwide, compared to Greninja's generally pretty good results in other regions and general "potential" as much as i hate that buzzword.

 

[Ikes]

Better jab, better dthrow, better dash grab, better bair, better fair, better nair ... Luigi still has good moves and he's still a pretty good character. He still doesn't struggle as much at getting stocks finished as Mario does and Luigi still has winning matchups against characters that are relevant in the current high & top-level metagame [vs Pikachu, vs Fox, vs Mario, ...]. Mario doesn't have the advantage against anybody until you reach "down" to the ~12th-15th area where he starts to have advantages against characters like Wario.
The difference between Mario and Luigi is really not that big. Mario is 8th at best and Luigi is still top 15 in this game. People just overrate Mario and underrate Luigi [now] which makes the gap seem bigger than it is.

Considering how much people seem to not care about this character any more it's almost unbelievable how hard people used to overrate Luigi. He hasn't been nerfed that terribly, many of his matchups are still the same and if they have turned worse then it's only by a minor amount. There's no justification for him dropping from the top 5 area into meaninglessness. The nerfs were nowhere near as bad as a lot of people assume.

no one really addressed my point though

i said what does he have that mario doesnt do better overall?

Luigi has Melee Pikachu syndrome right now. Sure he has a strong toolset, but Pikachu's gameplan is the same as fox's, but fox does it better. Pikachu has good options, but Fox has the better versions of those options, even if pikachu does have a handful of better moves. In comp play, considering pikachu is pretty much considering competitive suicide.

The same can be said for luigi. he has a handful of better tools, but what he wants to do overall is just performed better by mario.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

So when Yoshi and Ness don't do well at tourneys with occasional exceptions they're secretly mid-tier, but when Greninja and Peach don't do well at tourneys with occasional exceptions we can write it off as lack of rep? Because that's what I've gotten from this thread (and the previous one) lately...

First off, I don't see why you'd compare Yoshi and Ness together considering their reasons for having limited top rep are very different. If you really want my input, here's what I have to say.

Ness suffers in part from having a very gimpable recovery. Literally every character can deal with him offstage in some way by simply hitting him while he's using the move (very risky) or even jumping into the projectile itself (considering the crazy recoveries in this game, I'm rather surprised that not many seem to take advantage of that, though what I said above about it being risky could be part of the answer). He also has an abominable MU with Rosa and a still pretty tough MU with Sheik. If anything, his back throw is (probably) the only reason he lingers within the higher tiers as without it, all he has is aerial priority and BnB combos that can't kill (and his smashes suck). As far as rep, NAKAT (not sure about him), Shaky, and FOW are really the only notable ones.

Yoshi is sort of an interesting case. I'm actually one of those people who think he could be a potential Top 10 with the right player, but the main problem is that he's underperformed. Not even ESAM, Raptor, or any other Yoshi main can seem to replicate all the advanced stuff he can do. Egg control, lagless ledge jump (like @Yikarur said, Yoshi's ledge options are rather gimmicky and leave him vulnerable except for normal get-up), Fair locking, Jab combo, Wavebouncing, etc. I'm waiting for another aMsa here, for crying out loud! In terms of MUs, I think he does decently for the most part, but he has some hard MUs with characters like Diddy, Pikachu, and Sheik. Everyone else I believe he either goes even with or may even slightly beat them, so I think he has that going for him.

Now regarding Greninja and Peach, I think we should be favoring Peach here. Even outside Umeki and Slayerz, there's also a Peach main from Germany named EOE who makes great Peach content on Youtube. He also took a German national using (almost) exclusively Peach. Greninja is kind of out of the question seeing that he makes no impact in the American national scene bar Apex.

There's 3 notable Yoshi players in Japan (Aiba and I forget the names of the other two), but I haven't seen them crack top 8 at a national or anything (correct me if I'm wrong).

DIO took 7th at Karisuma 5. He's another decently notable Yoshi player from Japan.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

i said what does he have that mario doesnt do better overall?

Beating Fox, Pikachu, Mario, ...

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Beating Fox, Pikachu, Mario, ...

Pretty sure Mario also beats Pika.

 

[verbatim]

Socal has the best Tink in the US, best Peach in the US, best MK(s) in the US, best Luigi in the US and best Fox in the world.

Socal players are legit, im confident their opinions are accurate.

Greninja is disgustingly underrated in the US and sadly it won't change. Its painful to see.

If I may, who plays Toon Link in socal? I've only really ever heard of ***** as an American Toon Link on a regional PR.

Also for what it's worth socal is very conservative in regards to certain things, cough mii's, but the truth of the matter is that the first wave isn't "only top players", it just so happens that the most popular people listed in the smashboards post are top players with a particular mindset regarding such things. If you look at the full lis there is a much wider range of opinions that might have been initially conveyed.

 

[Peppermint1201]

If I may, who plays Toon Link in socal? I've only really ever heard of ***** as an American Toon Link on a regional PR.

Also for what it's worth socal is very conservative in regards to certain things, cough mii's, but the truth of the matter is that the first wave isn't "only top players", it just so happens that the most popular people listed in the smashboards post are top players with a particular mindset regarding such things. If you look at the full lis there is a much wider range of opinions that might have been initially conveyed.

I believe he's referring to Zan. You're talking about D*cks from the midwest right?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Pretty sure Mario also beats Pika.

What makes you "pretty sure" about it?

 

[Peppermint1201]

Let's not argue semantics. Mario beats Pika, period. I don't think ESAM has ever been able to beat Ally since this game came out, and we all know how Nairo did at MLG with Doc.

 

[Nobie]

no one really addressed my point though

i said what does he have that mario doesnt do better overall?

Luigi has Melee Pikachu syndrome right now. Sure he has a strong toolset, but Pikachu's gameplan is the same as fox's, but fox does it better. Pikachu has good options, but Fox has the better versions of those options, even if pikachu does have a handful of better moves. In comp play, considering pikachu is pretty much considering competitive suicide.

The same can be said for luigi. he has a handful of better tools, but what he wants to do overall is just performed better by mario.

Luigi doesn't just have a handful of better tools, many of his attacks are just straight up better than Mario's.

 

[warionumbah2]

If I may, who plays Toon Link in socal? I've only really ever heard of ***** as an American Toon Link on a regional PR.

He goes by the name -Zan

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Let's not argue semantics. Mario beats Pika, period. I don't think ESAM has ever been able to beat Ally since this game came out, and we all know how Nairo did at MLG with Doc.

I might think it's more of a case of ESAM just sucking at fighting them. Though if you told me the Mario Bros beat Pika, I wouldn't object.

 

[Knife8193]

Djent

Speaking of Yoshi, here's the vids of The Wall from last week's Battlegrounds (just uploaded).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIjL0wNIdjc (The Wall vs Trela, unfortunate SDs game 3 but still shows he's able to play on Trela's level)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG0uFVV9zc4 (The Wall vs Karna, he also was the one who beat Karna in WFs. Some may not know Karna, he's the Sheik that got 13th at BH5 beating Ryuga/Ryo, can't remember which)

As I mentioned earlier, this tournament was Smash United's Battlegrounds which took place last week and was a capped 128 man bracket. MJG was also at this tournament for skill reference.

http://smashunited.challonge.com/SUBSmash4

I may be biased since he's from my region, but he's got much better results than any other Yoshi I can think of. This isn't just a one time thing either, he's won quite a few tournaments in this region before this, taking sets off other good players like Grimturtle (aka Razer) and DJ Fliphop. Just so people know Yoshi does have another good rep.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Knife8193 , I appreciate your input.

This whole "Yoshi has no results" argument seriously needs to die. I'll even quote that comment for others to see if you'd like.

 

[verbatim]

I believe he's referring to Zan. You're talking about D*cks from the midwest right?

Thanks,

sidenote, anyone know what's the average age on smashboards, I can't imagine COPPA's the reason for the swear filter?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Right, well, let me clear some things up. First, the notion that Doc is better than Luigi really needs to go. I don't know if we're STILL overhyping Doc from that one Nairo set or if people are downplaying Luigi. Probably a bit of both. Well, Doc has a MUCH worse grab game, less ground mobility (technically has better air mobility...but it still sucks), worse recovery, and I'd say just because of Cyclone spiking with Luigi is a thing, Doc has worse edgeguarding too.

Doc's neutral is significantly better than Luigi's though. Due to his lower Short hop and better aerial mobility, Doc is much better at pressuring the opponent with Bair than luigi is and his lower traction enables him to punish OOS much more effectively. His edgeguarding game is more or less the same as Luigi's (probably slightly better) since his down b, while it doesn't spike, sends the opponent at a more favorable angle for edgeguarding when all the hits do connect and can KO around 80%-90% offstage. Doc also has cape and a very good bair to work with when edge guarding, as well as better aerial mobility.

Doc's grab game is worse than Luigi's, yeah, but honestly not by that much since his D-Throw combo's can't be interrupted by frame 3 moves at low percents (like Mario's Up B) and he has kill setups from grab. His strings from D-Throw aren't as good as luigi's but they still are good regardless.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Let's not argue semantics. Mario beats Pika, period.

Well that's your opinion ... but even then I'd argue that Luigi does better.

 

[verbatim]

I might think it's more of a case of ESAM just sucking at fighting them. Though if you told me the Mario Bros beat Pika, I wouldn't object.

I mean, he has a lot of the same advantages that Luigi does, combo breaking nair, low % throw combo's, great up smash, as well as a frame 3 intangible up b and can cape thunder jolt, AND significantly better air speed. Mario does well against Pikachu.

 

[Jaguar360]

Greninja is kind of out of the question seeing that he makes no impact in the American national scene.

Hey now, let's not get carried away. aMSa did get 9th at Apex with pre-buff and post-nerf Greninja. Top Greninjas just haven't attended other US nationals at all since they don't travel aside from aMSa at EVO, where he lost to Dabuz of all people in Losers just outside of Top 32. The American scene isn't the only one that matters either, especially since Greninja has made an impact literally everywhere else where Smash is popular except maybe Mexico or some other country I'm not aware of.

Knife8193 , I appreciate your input.

This whole "Yoshi has no results" argument seriously needs to die.

I've definitely been noticing that Yoshi has been doing solidly lately (thanks for notifying me about that DIO top 8 placement btw; he was one of the 3 Japanese Yoshis I was thinking of), but they still aren't great. Yoshi has the makings and results of a good character, just not a top character like many smash players thought earlier on.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja has performed better than Peach in Europe and Japan. istudying got 1st in a Netherlands national with (exclusively) Greninja and 2nd in a bigger one. Eddy consistently performs well (top 12 in stuff). Some has performed better than Umeki in general, Umeki hasn't done anything as impressive as 5th at Umebura 19 and both got top 16 at Umebura FAT. Peach only has strictly better results in the US. Greninja is more than comparable based theory or results.

 

[FullMoon]

aMSa got 9th at Apex not 7th.

But other than that, yeah, Greninja seems to get results everywhere but NA.

 

[Skeeter Mania]

aMSa got 9th at Apex not 7th.

But other than that, yeah, Greninja seems to get results everywhere but NA.

Yeah, that's why I said American. Anything else is just blatantly untrue.

 

[teddystalin]

Some has performed better than Umeki in general, Umeki hasn't done anything as impressive as 5th at Umebura 19 and both got top 16 at Umebura FAT.

Well, Umeki did get 4th at the previous Umebura : P He's higher on the PR for a reason.

Considering Kie's results in Kansai, Peach still probably has better results in Japan overall.

 

[Kaladin]

Contention: Mario does not beat Pika, ESAM plays the matchup wrong. Mario gets bodied by a super passive aggressive/campy pikachu.

 

[verbatim]

If passive campy Pikachu beats Mario how does Pikachu lose to Luigi (pre or post), who's significantly more dependent on shieldgrabbing, significantly slower in the air, and can't cape thunder jolt?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

Contention: Mario does not beat Pika, ESAM plays the matchup wrong. Mario gets bodied by a super passive aggressive/campy pikachu.

I don't think Pika wins by any stretch of the imagination, but at least some people are acknowledging that ESAM sucks at fighting Marios.

 

[Kaladin]

If passive campy Pikachu beats Mario how does Pikachu lose to Luigi (pre or post), who's significantly more dependent on shieldgrabbing, significantly slower in the air, and can't cape thunder jolt?

I don't think he does. Mr. ConCon was playing on ESAM's stream pre-nef and bodying him, but then ESAM decided to T-jolt+QA camp on Smashville and BF, and ConCon couldn't take a game.

ESAM is hyper-aggressive, to a fault -- and when that means he's playing wrong, we have to take that into account.

 

[DunnoBro]

Mario does literally everything luigi does that makes pikachu hate him. Hard for pika to combo so gets more out of the rushdown game, shuts down the poke game with fireballs/dash shield, fundamentally beating him in neutral and then also kill better.

You can call it an opinion as much as you can call sheik being the best an opinion.

I don't think he does. Mr. ConCon was playing on ESAM's stream pre-nef and bodying him, but then ESAM decided to T-jolt+QA camp on Smashville and BF, and ConCon couldn't take a game.

ESAM is hyper-aggressive, to a fault -- and when that means he's playing wrong, we have to take that into account.

The counter to t-jolt+qa spam for luigi is powershield grabbing which you can't really do on wifi. Not sure this is a good indicator of the MU. (not mentioning it's still just wifi)

 

[Luco]

Wow this thread's posting rules are becoming ever scarier. Hopefully this ties in. Also sup guys, it's been a (little) while.

Ness suffers in part from having a very gimpable recovery. Literally every character can deal with him offstage in some way by simply hitting him while he's using the move (very risky) or even jumping into the projectile itself (considering the crazy recoveries in this game, I'm rather surprised that not many seem to take advantage of that, though what I said above about it being risky could be part of the answer). He also has an abominable MU with Rosa and a still pretty tough MU with Sheik. If anything, his back throw is (probably) the only reason he lingers within the higher tiers as without it, all he has is aerial priority and BnB combos that can't kill (and his smashes suck). As far as rep, NAKAT (not sure about him), Shaky, and FOW are really the only notable ones.

So I'd actually say top Sonic and Luigi mains are giving Ness more trouble than top Sheik mains (barring ZeRo). I seem to recall some time ago at a major (can't remember which) Shaky beat his way through like 2 or 3 different top Sheik mains before getting stopped in his tracks by Dabuz.

Which, by the way, is really the biggest thing that makes it hard to assess Ness at a top level. Shaky, FOW and NAKAT would have all been facing other top mains if they hadn't been pushed out of the tournament by Rosa first. Dabuz and Falln are such consistent Ness eliminators that it's really hard to know where Ness would go without that MU in his way.

Ness' MU against Sheik generally consists of Ness losing footsies hard because of how mobile Sheik is and then capitalising on reads or punishes until kill percents, which happens to be early because lol look at all this rage Sheik gives me. Nothing new, except with shield changes getting the grab is potentially more difficult. Not sure how significant that is though if you're utilising tomahawk and SH Uair which trades with Fair iirc.

 

[C0rvus]

I can't be the only one that has like zero hope in Ness. The boy's been capped out since like a month after launch. He has a ridiculous kill throw, his buttons are silly good and he has a few good players. But, as time goes on, does he have an answer to patient play? How will he fare as people start edge guarding him more efficiently? He just seems so average in terms of mobility and range that I'm not sure how he'll deal with top level keep away.

Compound that with the fact that he gets bopped out of top placings by Dabuz, and you have a character with nowhere to go but down imo.

 

[Djent]

Luigi vs. Pika is not a clear advantage for either character IMO. Luigi's absurd reward was the only thing that ever made it look worse than the Mario MU. Now that both plumbers are even comparable in their killing abilities, it's kind of nutty to say that Luigi should do better. I also side with DunnoBro in thinking Pika (= or >) Mario is just so far contradicted by both theory and results that it's probably not worth arguing about.

 

[Luco]

I can't be the only one that has like zero hope in Ness. The boy's been capped out since like a month after launch. He has a ridiculous kill throw, his buttons are silly good and he has a few good players. But, as time goes on, does he have an answer to patient play? How will he fare as people start edge guarding him more efficiently? He just seems so average in terms of mobility and range that I'm not sure how he'll deal with top level keep away.

Compound that with the fact that he gets bopped out of top placings by Dabuz, and you have a character with nowhere to go but down imo.

I feel as though Ness' answers to shield got so much better in the last patch that his neutral against most of the cast has become a lot better (Uair and Bair are very safe on most chars now). That's kind of accounted for his lack of mobility in footsies, and the ability to kill with or without a grab (looking at Uair, Bair and against some chars, Dsmash at the ledge catching ledge-snaps) will always be relevant.

Also Ness' bad off-stage isn't as crippling as people love to make it seem. Brawl PKT was so much worse (olimar pikmin stopped that thing before it even left Ness' body) and top Ness mains got by pretty well anyway most of the time (until they got CGed to death anyway...)

As for the Rosa MU and Dabuz, it's hard to say, and depends how you look at it. I can say with confidence that Ness has the tools to win that MU, and furthermore make it almost as volatile for Rosa as it is for Ness (after versing one of UK's top Rosa mains in tournament, DX on multiple occasions, I'm pretty sure that MU could end up eventually as a -1). Top Ness mains aren't on the level of Dabuz (yet), and aren't finding the tools they need to win that MU.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I've heard from a good ness main that ness beats Pika. Thinking about it in my head, I can kind of understand. QA gets interrupted great from things like Nair, and a common problem that alot of characters have with pikachu (size), isn't too much of a problem for ness.

And about ness's potential. It sounds like Pivot Dsmash might become a thing in the future. New shieldstun properties as mentioned by Luco , could mean big things when the next major comes around, as there hasn't been one yet w/ the new shieldstun.

 

[Luco]

I've heard from a good ness main that ness beats Pika. Thinking about it in my head, I can kind of understand. QA gets interrupted great from things like Nair, and a common problem that alot of characters have with pikachu (size), isn't too much of a problem for ness.

And about ness's potential. It sounds like Pivot Dsmash might become a thing in the future. New shieldstun properties as mentioned by Luco , could mean big things when the next major comes around, as there hasn't been one yet w/ the new shieldstun.

I think the best person to comment on that MU is @SolidSense if he's around. At mid level it tends to be a lot of Nair to deal with QA shenanigoats as you said but at upper levels I've heard the MU changes form a bit more. Might be an advantage for Ness considering that famous set between Shaky and ESAM but I'm not sure if there's more recent evidence that suggests otherwise or how relevant that set is post-patch.

It is definitely something we believed pre-patch at the very least, and may still be.

 

[Planty]

As for the Rosa MU and Dabuz, it's hard to say, and depends how you look at it. I can say with confidence that Ness has the tools to win that MU, and furthermore make it almost as volatile for Rosa as it is for Ness (after versing one of UK's top Rosa mains in tournament, DX on multiple occasions, I'm pretty sure that MU could end up eventually as a -1). Top Ness mains aren't on the level of Dabuz (yet), and aren't finding the tools they need to win that MU.

I second this. Rosa vs Ness matchup is super exaggerated in terms of how bad it is. It really is just a super volatile matchup where Rosalina is lucky enough to have a stronger advantage state. Imagine Little Mac dittos where one of the Mac's had smash attacks that were a bit stronger than the other's and you have Rosa vs Ness.

The way the human mind works is that it loves to find the worst possibilities. When people hear something repeated often, they start believing it. It's what makes things like Rosa vs Ness being 95:5, among other things, exist. You hear it enough, you believe it. It's also probably the reason many people still have Mewtwo in bottom 3. Enough people are loud about it, which leads to it being accepted. Such is the nature of the human mind. It has to try to fit in.

 

[verbatim]

I can't be the only one that has like zero hope in Ness. The boy's been capped out since like a month after launch. He has a ridiculous kill throw, his buttons are silly good and he has a few good players. But, as time goes on, does he have an answer to patient play? How will he fare as people start edge guarding him more efficiently? He just seems so average in terms of mobility and range that I'm not sure how he'll deal with top level keep away.

Compound that with the fact that he gets bopped out of top placings by Dabuz, and you have a character with nowhere to go but down imo.

Being danced around by Sheik isn't exactly a Ness unique thing. I get that he has a HORRIBLE disadvantage state, but I'd put forth the argument that he's better as a counterpick character than a solo-main, kind of like prepatch Luigi (Anti and Larry Lurr have placed significantly better than ConCon using Luigi as a CP).

 

[C0rvus]

Being danced around by Sheik isn't exactly a Ness unique thing. I get that he has a HORRIBLE disadvantage state, but I'd put forth the argument that he's better as a counterpick character than a solo-main, kind of like prepatch Luigi (Anti and Larry Lurr have placed significantly better than ConCon using Luigi as a CP).

Well not just Sheik. I wonder what his Greninja MU is supposed to look like? I know Ness loses to Toon Link, even if slightly. Anyone who wants to play keep away and is good at it seems to have little to fear from Ness, but I'm likely just oversimplifying things.

Also, I agree that his recovery isn't as bad as it is made out to be in practice, but the fact of the matter is that Ness can be edgeguarded in a game where that isn't exactly a universal trait. Like Fox, it may be what ends up hurting him the most at mid to high level and beyond. That and his skill ceiling seems pretty low tbh. Does the Ness meta have anything going on? Anywhere they can push the character?

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Ness-rosa MU is no worse than -2. I can kind of see ness as a type of counterpick character, but really just because of his MU's with Sheik and Rosa.

I haven't done too much research on what other people think of Tink MU's, so I didn't know that other people also thought it was one of the best high tier MU's for toon link.

 

[meleebrawler]

Ness does seem to have this Mario-esque issue of closing stocks, as he mostly relies on punishes to land them. The only real setup moves he has are the low-range dtilt and laggy PK Fire. His finishers are more potent but Mario has an easier time landing his own with his mobility.

By comparison Lucas has an easier time setting up kills with his longer-ranged dtilt, advancing zair, dthrow that is almost as effective as pre-patch Luigi dthrow in how long it can be used as a kill setup, and a fairly diverse array of edgeguarding tools, in exchange for a somewhat less solid neutral.