Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Luco]

Well not just Sheik. I wonder what his Greninja MU is supposed to look like? I know Ness loses to Toon Link, even if slightly. Anyone who wants to play keep away and is good at it seems to have little to fear from Ness, but I'm likely just oversimplifying things.

Also, I agree that his recovery isn't as bad as it is made out to be in practice, but the fact of the matter is that Ness can be edgeguarded in a game where that isn't exactly a universal trait. Like Fox, it may be what ends up hurting him the most at mid to high level and beyond. That and his skill ceiling seems pretty low tbh. Does the Ness meta have anything going on? Anywhere they can push the character?

Ness losing to Toon Link is something I've never heard before. I'd be interested in hearing why.

As for your lower paragraph, that's something I really don't know. I believe @Noa. was researching Ness' combos in depth but not sure if he ever got around to releasing his data. At this point I can only think of PKT juggles and utilising Dsmash at the ledge more, but I've been away for some time now so there might well be new stuff.

Greninja was a MU that was heavily disputed and ended up in a 50:50 due to lack of high level results - EB360/Mik! knows the most about it afaik/has the most high level exp.

Keep away seems effective but Ness does so much damage once he gets in that it tends to even out. Link is especially annoying but once you've won mid-range footsies you're doing like 25%+ (especially at low percents) and putting him in disadvantage where you can do a lot more.

 

[C0rvus]

Ness losing to Toon Link is something I've never heard before. I'd be interested in hearing why.

As for your lower paragraph, that's something I really don't know. I believe @Noa. was researching Ness' combos in depth but not sure if he ever got around to releasing his data. At this point I can only think of PKT juggles and utilising Dsmash at the ledge more, but I've been away for some time now so there might well be new stuff.

Greninja was a MU that was heavily disputed and ended up in a 50:50 due to lack of high level results - EB360/Mik! knows the most about it afaik/has the most high level exp.

Keep away seems effective but Ness does so much damage once he gets in that it tends to even out. Link is especially annoying but once you've won mid-range footsies you're doing like 25%+ (especially at low percents) and putting him in disadvantage where you can do a lot more.

Basically the only reason Ness isn't a viable solo main at the top levels is Rosa right now and to a lesser extent Sonic. He has all the strengths he needs to be taking top spots more if it weren't for these MUs.

I feel that Toon Link has the means to circle camp Ness and tack on safe damage. It's no worse than 55-45 though, if that. I know nothing about Ness/Greninja myself but I imagine it's close to 50/50 in practice.

Idk, I'm of the mindset that yes, in practice Ness does lots of damage when he gets in, but at high level it should hardly be a factor because their opponent shouldn't let him get in. Obviously this is flawed thinking. At least it should be considered an important advantage to be able to play safely away from Ness, but when the game is played, the results rarely reflect that.

 

[Dre89]

Toon Link is one of those characters that has evenish match ups with most of the cast. Theoretically he can safely rack up damage on top tiers, so he doesn't lose too hard to them. But he also doesn't body lesser characters because even characters that he's supposed to camp easily like fatties have much better reward than he does when they get in.

I'd say he's solo viable, because you could pick him into any MU and win with enough MU knowledge and skill.

 

[Planty]

I'd say he's solo viable, because you could pick him into any MU and win with enough MU knowledge and skill.

This goes for literally every character.

 

[Dre89]

This goes for literally every character.

It doesn't though

Toon Link does better in his bad match ups than a lot of other characters.

The difference between Tink and a lot of other characters is that he retains a lot of control on his bad matchups. What makes his bad match ups bad is that it's harder to pick the right option everytime, and you have lower margin for error. So even though it's a bad matchup he still has all the tools he has normally, it's just harder to put them to effect.

Other characters simply lose a lot of their tools in bad matchups. A Bowser vsing a Sheik has lost some of his best options (eg. Jab in neutral) thanks to needle camping.

Rosalina removes a lot of characters' freedom because they're limited to a few options thanks to Luma.

Tink keeps all his options regardless of match ups. That's the difference.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: Ness vs. Rosalina, while I'm inclined to agree that Rosalina has the overall advantage, I don't think it's a crushing one unless Ness is forced to use PK Thunder offstage, which Ness should be avoiding at all costs anyway.

Onstage, I think PK Fire is uniquely useful vs. Rosalina since it can detonate on Luma even when Rosalina is shielding/rolling/spotdodging. Not only does this lock Luma in place, it also creates an obstacle that Rosalina can't GP. So her options are limited to using GP on the bolt before impact (which I'm pretty sure is punishable at the range PK Fire will hit anyway) or simply getting out of the way by jumping or running backwards.

Then there's the usual hubbub over how bthrow kills Rosalina really early because she's light, etc. etc.

Other unusual move interactions: Star Bits cannot be reflected by the bat or absorbed by PSI Magnet (they're not energy or a projectile for some reason, even though both custom versions are), and PK Flash cannot be absorbed by GP (in case you decide to disrespect her or something I guess).

 

[Djent]

The only high-level Rosa I know of to have a recent loss to Ness is Ikep. For reference, he defeated Ranai in 2 of the 3 sets they played at Karisuma 4, which won him the tournament. So we know he's very good at his peak. However, at the most recent Karisuma last month, he finished at a disappointing 17th place at the hands of Tougou, who is a relatively unknown Ness player.

Unfortunately, Ikep probably could have sealed game 3 if he had read the last-stock edge scenario correctly and used GP offstage. However, I still think this set was well-played by both parties. In particular, notice how susceptible Rosa is to getting juggled by PKT at lower altitudes where she can't risk GP. Also notice how disruptive Ness's dash attack can be from close-midrange when Luma is next to Rosa.

 

[Wintropy]

So Tink is basically Pit Jr - decent matchup spread overall, but nothing truly incredible to make him a favourite pick in top tourneys?

I don't know about that, to be honest. I won't claim to know Tink's matchup spread or how his meta has developed, but if that's the case, what's keeping him from being a high-tier in the same vein as Pit? Weaker grab / punish reward, more gimpable recovery, poorer OOS game, unimpressive CQC options, that kinda thing?

I mean, Pit isn't a top-tier threat or anything, but credit where it's due: he's got an abundance of good options in neutral and what he does (footsies, grab reward, bait 'n' punish, air strings), he does very well.

If that's what's keeping Tink from being on the same stratum of viability (i.e. decent matchup spread, but not quite that good in execution), I'd be willing to believe the thesis.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know exactly what is meant by "how does Ness punish patient play" because he doesn't really need to. Ness is one of the best characters at patient play himself. His shield camping is incredibly hard to challenge if you're at high percent, as he is the best character at killing OoS (back throw, there may be slightly scarier OoS options like SRK but they get punished hard on a whiff, Ness only gets punished for the grab whiff) with an excellent short hop game to boot. Patient play is what he wants most of the time, he's one of the best at it. Unless he's at a significant percent deficit or behind a stock, he won't approach.

Problems do arise though when Ness loses the lead, because his approach options aren't good and neither is his mobility.

ITA that Ness hasn't really changed since month 1. We are seeing the same old Fair chains, Bthrow kills and landing aerials. It's natural for people to wise up and perform better against him. Ness is one of the simplest characters in the game, he's super easy to use and it's not easy to exploit his weaknesses. However, as people get better at exploiting them and Ness' gameplan fails to evolve, he's going to drop.

I think the shield nerf was bad for him overall. His strong OoS game took a hit and so did running shield as an approach, which he really liked. His landing aerials were always pretty safe on block. Other players shield a little less, giving him fewer opportunities to land Bthrow.

I have seen little to no evidence that the Rosalina MU isn't bad for Ness at top level. He clearly competes in neutral, but the moment he has to use PKT2, his stock is gone. Good Rosas won't bother with their standard gameplan and will just keep Ness off the stage at all costs. Dabuz capitalises on this beautifully. I am somewhat biased as most of my experience watching this MU comes from watching Dabuz, who is obviously a great player, but it doesn't look like there's much more a Ness player like FOW could be doing to make this MU better.

Ness is still a really solid character but I don't know how much room he has to grow. Right now I think he sits a hair below top 10, or is maybe 10th in the game, and I don't see him rising in the near future.

 

[Dre89]

So Tink is basically Pit Jr - decent matchup spread overall, but nothing truly incredible to make him a favourite pick in top tourneys?

I don't know about that, to be honest. I won't claim to know Tink's matchup spread or how his meta has developed, but if that's the case, what's keeping him from being a high-tier in the same vein as Pit? Weaker grab / punish reward, more gimpable recovery, poorer OOS game, unimpressive CQC options, that kinda thing?

I mean, Pit isn't a top-tier threat or anything, but credit where it's due: he's got an abundance of good options in neutral and what he does (footsies, grab reward, bait 'n' punish, air strings), he does very well.

If that's what's keeping Tink from being on the same stratum of viability (i.e. decent matchup spread, but not quite that good in execution), I'd be willing to believe the thesis.

Toon Link has low damage on-hit on anything not dependant on bomb-confirms, so he has low reward. He only has good reward on hit if he plays aggressively, which usually refers to pulling a bomb and running at them, somehow landing the bomb and close-ish range, so you can get higher reward options like utilt chains, uair, fair, usmash or fsmash, but then also be close enough to them after that to pressure them for the next mix up.

He has good reward when he plays like that but obviously it's less safe than just camping. His CQC is bad because his fastest attack on the ground is his frame 6 jab, which is slow for how light he is. Normally characters with that sort of frame data are heavies with much better range and reward on-hit.

So yeah he's a solid character, but against the better characters you have to do a lot more work than they do because you don't get 50% from one read.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Shaky has played Dabuz at 2 nationals so far (CEO & Paragon) and got bopped both times. FoW also played Dabuz at Evo and got bopped. Even if you do call the nerve bias, the simple fact that if Ness makes a mistake / or Rosalina makes a read on Ness, it can result in death. Now depending on how severe that is you can call it a counter / hard-counter, but I definitely cannot call it a soft-counter unless Ness can consistently beat Rosa to lower the amount of times he is at risk which I doubt. Also on the topic of Rosalina, I find her position in the meta game to be quite weird. Among the Top Tiers I think the general consensus is

worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa.
[considered Top Tier in Japan] worst MU is arguably Rosa.

She constitutes the Highest amount of "Worst MU's" for Top Tier while also losing to Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight and Olimar for sure. Where do you think she stacks up? Does having strong / positive MU's over [ ] then losing to [ZSS has a strong MU over Rosa] equates to the 3rd best character?.

 

[Ikes]

well i mean he does have arguably the best utilt juggle in the game since it's so huge and pulls you right into the center of the arc

also are we gonna ignore how wario gets 12 percent from his fthrow AND it can kill? that means one fthrow just below the kill threshold will guarantee that another will kill in pretty much 90% of any situation of the sort.

You can basically just fish for grabs half a round and get meaty 10-12% (depending on staling) throws AND put opponents in bad positions, often offstage.

that's just rough.

 

[thehard]

I'm watching the iBuyPower tournament and Mr. ConCon's gotten away with a bunch of Cyclones in neutral, so I'm not crazy. He also beat Zenyou's Sheik in top 8.

 

[Smog Frog]

worst mu is ? i don't believe its worse than (which is virtually even) or even(virtually even)

 

[TheJolteon]

I feel Sonic's worst MU is Sheik due to the fact that needles can break the whole spin dash and forward air and take him out of it too. ZSS is a contender as well due to having a projectile as well.

 

[TriTails]

I'm watching the iBuyPower tournament and Mr. ConCon's gotten away with a bunch of Cyclones in neutral, so I'm not crazy. He also beat Zenyou's Sheik in top 8.

Would like to see.

Why? Because I'm so convinced top players are still not doing it right if LUIGI CYCLONE can get away in neutral.

The thing is punishable on hit most of the time and has like 40~ frames of end lag.

I feel Sonic's worst MU is Sheik due to the fact that needles can break the whole spin dash and forward air and take him out of it too. ZSS is a contender as well due to having a projectile as well.

Luigi is Sonic's worst MU then.

No. Simply stopping Spin Dash does little **** to Sonic. I'm not disagreeing Sheik can potentially be Sonic's worst MU but stopping Spin Dash shouldn't make a character go advantage against Sonic.

 

[Dre89]

Would like to see.

Why? Because I'm so convinced top players are still not doing it right if LUIGI CYCLONE can get away in neutral.

The thing is punishable on hit most of the time and has like 40~ frames of end lag.


Luigi is Sonic's worst MU then.

No. Simply stopping Spin Dash does little **** to Sonic. I'm not disagreeing Sheik can potentially be Sonic's worst MU but stopping Spin Dash shouldn't make a character go advantage against Sonic.

I swear people who think moves like cyclone are unusable in neutral must never use mix ups at all.

Just because something has endlag and isn't safe on shield doesn't mean it's unusable. Moves like cyclone function as effective mixups directly out of other options at mid-range because if the opponent commits to anything other than a direct counter (like shielding) it'll land.

This how characters like Diddy, CF and Ganondorf have been landing their sidebs since Brawl and Melee.

Let's not forget that most characters cannot afford to just stand there in mid-range just waiting to shield it, because Luigi has fireballs.

 

[Ffamran]

It helps that Luigi Cyclone can travel far/fast horizontally on the ground. Dr. Mario would love that burst movement option...

 

[Dre89]

It helps that Luigi Cyclone can travel far/fast horizontally on the ground. Dr. Mario would love that burst movement option...

Yeah, let's not also forget that at midrange, if someone is afraid of your dashgrab, dash downb will beat basically every option other than the one that loses to said dashgrab.

 

[TDK]

I feel like the whole "Character X has a super volatile matchup against character Y" notion is what makes a bad character. All of his matchups are even to good until your opponent gets in on you and gets you in the air, because when you're Little Mac in the air, you become the worst character in the game with a horrendous set of landing options and the worst recovery.

 

[thehard]

So ZeRo wins that tournament going Diddy in grands against VoiD and against Larry a bit earlier. He did this at MLG too against Nairo. I think it says a lot about the future of the metagame if our best player is opting off of Sheik against strong players.

ConCon placing 5th with solo(?) Luigi. Had a very close set with VoiD in Loser's.

Overall a really fun top 8, worth watching if you missed it. I saw a lot of things on display I wasn't aware worked.

 

[TriTails]

I swear people who think moves like cyclone are unusable in neutral must never use mix ups at all.

Just because something has endlag and isn't safe on shield doesn't mean it's unusable. Moves like cyclone function as effective mixups directly out of other options at mid-range because if the opponent commits to anything other than a direct counter (like shielding) it'll land.

This how characters like Diddy, CF and Ganondorf have been landing their sidebs since Brawl and Melee.

Let's not forget that most characters cannot afford to just stand there in mid-range just waiting to shield it, because Luigi has fireballs.

I never said Cyclone is unusable because of its punishability on shield. I said it's cringeworthy in neutral because the thing is unsafe on hit. Consider yourself lucky if you are properly trapping them in the Cyclone unless you approached them from the air, they are in the air to begin with, or they are literally doing nothing.

You ram people, they get send UPWARDS with little knockback, they land, you get punished. I don't care if it has SJP sourspot-level of unsafety on shield if it traps people properly. It not linking properly on anyone except for idle CPU on the ground is the reason why Cyclone can't be used as a mixup very well. Sure, you can approach them from the air, but that present a risk as Luigi has the 2nd slowest airspeed and its punsihability.

I also didn't say it's useless as a mixup. It's just whenever it hits and it sends people upwards you know you're ****ed, which is the case 95% of the time. Not worth the risk for the reward. This is actually one of the few things I would like the devs to fix, as being punished for landing something is dumb.

Also, a really precise nitpick, but if you are actually trapped you can tech it out. But nobody does it and the timing's random so this isn't very feasible (But if you do, then Luigi is wider than Home-Run Contest's stadium).

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Around what percentages is the cyclone unsafe on hit?


I'm also wondering about people's opinion of Fox, and what his MU's are like.

 

[TriTails]

Around what percentages is the cyclone unsafe on hit?

Not consistent. I don't think percents matter on this one.

Take note I'm referring to the Cyclone's 1st to the 4th hits, not the final one.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

Not consistent. I don't think percents matter on this one.

Take note I'm referring to the Cyclone's 1st to the 4th hits, not the final one.

ohhhhhhhh. Now I see what you're saying.

 

[Ghostbone]

So we had another close set between an MK and Sheik of similar skill level.
Feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point.

 

[Peppermint1201]

So we had another close set between an MK and Sheik of similar skill level.
Feel like I'm beating a dead horse at this point.

You can't just say that and not say what the horse is, but I think I can take a wild guess

 

[TriTails]

You can't just say that and not say what the horse is, but I think I can take a wild guess

It's a knockoff to the MK mains who believe Sheik vs MK is bad for the latter, but the results prove pretty darn otherwise. The fact that 'close set' happened only furtherize (????? Word exist or no?) the assumption that MK goes fairly even with Sheik in top level play, in contary what MK mains are thinking.

 

[Vipermoon]

TriTails

Hmm, I thought Cyclone was supposed to do that in those cases (because that's basically what happens in Melee but that was fine because it did A LOT of damage then). Lmao that making me think this due to how often this happens only proves your point more.

Furtherize is not a word.

Side note: Home Run Contest should be a stage!! So should the angry bird target test. I'm serious about the former, it would be really interesting to play on a stage that small. We haven't experienced this in competitive smash.

 

[TriTails]

TriTails

Hmm, I thought Cyclone was supposed to do that in those cases (because that's basically what happens in Melee but that was fine because it did A LOT of damage then). Lmao that making me think this due to how often this happens only proves your point more.

64 and Melee Cyclone were designed to be one-hitter and not a trapping move, correct? I'm sure on 64 but unsure on Melee. In 64 I recall it did do crapton of damage and knockback as well, so it wasn't punishable on contact.

I believe if this was addressed we'd be seeing more Cyclones in Luigi's neutral instead of throwing 683432986 Fireballs. MUCH more.

Furtherize is not a word.

Let's just say English is not my mother tongue and I like random wordings .

 

[ぱみゅ]

It's a knockoff to the MK mains who believe Sheik vs MK is bad for the latter, but the results prove pretty darn otherwise. The fact that 'close set' happened only furtherize (????? Word exist or no?) the assumption that MK goes fairly even with Sheik in top level play, in contary what MK mains are thinking.

Sheik still dominates the neutral by a landslide.
I'd call it fraudulently even at best.

 

[Djent]

So SHI-G is currently streaming a tournament (Hirosuma 2). Top 3 is 9B (waiting in GF), with Kie and Ron / (top Wi-Fi player) in LF. So far it's been relevant to the discussion of Greninja's vs. Peach's results (another point in Peach's favor for Japan), the Pika vs. Mario MU (Shimitake lost to FILIP twice), and Luigi's viability (two tournies today featured Luigi in top 6).

 

[Skeeter Mania]

I swear people who think moves like cyclone are unusable in neutral must never use mix ups at all.

Just because something has endlag and isn't safe on shield doesn't mean it's unusable. Moves like cyclone function as effective mixups directly out of other options at mid-range because if the opponent commits to anything other than a direct counter (like shielding) it'll land.

This how characters like Diddy, CF and Ganondorf have been landing their sidebs since Brawl and Melee.

Let's not forget that most characters cannot afford to just stand there in mid-range just waiting to shield it, because Luigi has fireballs.

In fact, people say the same about Doc's Tornado. They think it's utter trash due to heavy ending lag and unsafety on shields (even though it conditions the latter).

 

[Djent]

To follow up from earlier...Ron won the tournament over 9B (results link).

It was two back-to-back sets coming from losers, 2-1 then 2-0. He went mostly , but he won game 1 of GF2 with . Let no doofuses insist that one of these characters lies outside of top 10/20 respectively. You also need to watch the replays if you're of the opinion that Ryu solidly beats Mario. The short story is that it looks like Ryu is more of an Ally problem than a Mario one.

One final thing: Ron is likely the best player of both these characters and we should get him to Genesis 3 if at all possible.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Shaky has played Dabuz at 2 nationals so far (CEO & Paragon) and got bopped both times. FoW also played Dabuz at Evo and got bopped. Even if you do call the nerve bias, the simple fact that if Ness makes a mistake / or Rosalina makes a read on Ness, it can result in death. Now depending on how severe that is you can call it a counter / hard-counter, but I definitely cannot call it a soft-counter unless Ness can consistently beat Rosa to lower the amount of times he is at risk which I doubt. Also on the topic of Rosalina, I find her position in the meta game to be quite weird. Among the Top Tiers I think the general consensus is

worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa
worst MU is Rosa.
[considered Top Tier in Japan] worst MU is arguably Rosa.

She constitutes the Highest amount of "Worst MU's" for Top Tier while also losing to Sheik, ZSS, Meta Knight and Olimar for sure. Where do you think she stacks up? Does having strong / positive MU's over [ ] then losing to [ZSS has a strong MU over Rosa] equates to the 3rd best character?.

Pikachu also takes a big fat dump all over Rosalina. Quick Attack makes short work of Luma, and Rosa has a tough time punishing anything he can do.

Also, Sonic's worst matchup is definitely not Rosa. I'm convinced that that matchup is even, if not in Sonic's favor, mainly because spindash will hurt Luma even if you shield it.

Sheik still dominates the neutral by a landslide.
I'd call it fraudulently even at best.

That would imply that Meta Knight actually has a neutral (outside of dash attack and dash grab).

 

[bc1910]

I don't mean to discredit anyone's results although that was a fairly small tournament where someone who plays "everyone" got 9th.

All the players who got top 8 were kind of shoe-ins. The most interesting thing was to see a Mario/Luigi player beat Ryu. Though I fail to see how Luigi getting 1st when he was only used for one match in grands in an otherwise relatively unstacked tourney guarantees him a spot in top 20.

And before anyone jumps down my throat, I don't like meh results from Greninja either. Some got 1st in a SHI-G tourney beating Dee (widely considered the best Pac-Man, if only he'd play offline) in 2 sets of grands but the tourney wasn't stacked otherwise so I don't bring it up much.

 

[Ghostbone]

What evidence is there that Pikachu beats Rosalina?

That one set that went down to the wire featuring ESAM and Dabuz? lol.

Haven't seen much else of that matchup aside from Rayquaza taking 3 of ESAMs stocks while only dying once to win a crew battle. Rosalina tends to do well vs characters that don't have disjoints because of luma too, why is Pikachu an exception?

 

[Skeeter Mania]

That would imply that Meta Knight actually has a neutral (outside of dash attack and dash grab).

How does he not have a neutral?

 

[Ghostbone]

How does he not have a neutral?

Meta Knight's neutral game is infamously simple.

He just has the 50/50 of dash attack or dash grab, and he rolls around until he gets that, with the occasional d-tilt or dair camping (when he needs to land)

It's the only thing keeping his insane reward in check.

 

[Luco]

I don't know exactly what is meant by "how does Ness punish patient play" because he doesn't really need to. Ness is one of the best characters at patient play himself. His shield camping is incredibly hard to challenge if you're at high percent, as he is the best character at killing OoS (back throw, there may be slightly scarier OoS options like SRK but they get punished hard on a whiff, Ness only gets punished for the grab whiff) with an excellent short hop game to boot. Patient play is what he wants most of the time, he's one of the best at it. Unless he's at a significant percent deficit or behind a stock, he won't approach.

Problems do arise though when Ness loses the lead, because his approach options aren't good and neither is his mobility.

ITA that Ness hasn't really changed since month 1. We are seeing the same old Fair chains, Bthrow kills and landing aerials. It's natural for people to wise up and perform better against him. Ness is one of the simplest characters in the game, he's super easy to use and it's not easy to exploit his weaknesses. However, as people get better at exploiting them and Ness' gameplan fails to evolve, he's going to drop.

I think the shield nerf was bad for him overall. His strong OoS game took a hit and so did running shield as an approach, which he really liked. His landing aerials were always pretty safe on block. Other players shield a little less, giving him fewer opportunities to land Bthrow.

I have seen little to no evidence that the Rosalina MU isn't bad for Ness at top level. He clearly competes in neutral, but the moment he has to use PKT2, his stock is gone. Good Rosas won't bother with their standard gameplan and will just keep Ness off the stage at all costs. Dabuz capitalises on this beautifully. I am somewhat biased as most of my experience watching this MU comes from watching Dabuz, who is obviously a great player, but it doesn't look like there's much more a Ness player like FOW could be doing to make this MU better.

Ness is still a really solid character but I don't know how much room he has to grow. Right now I think he sits a hair below top 10, or is maybe 10th in the game, and I don't see him rising in the near future.

Hmm, I would dispute that Ness' landing aerials were already safe, they seemed good but to be properly safe they both had to be timed and spaced really well (I think I knew some of the numbers/data at one point but don't remember exactly) and were in my eyes one of the things that really stopped Ness being able to play footsies effectively. In fact, previously this was one of the areas Ness stopped being an easy character and to succeed at higher levels you had to master spacing/timing. It is true that his OoS and running shield became worse off though.