Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Pazzo.]

Some people may just like the thrill of beating someone with a objectionably "bad" character.

And besides that, a player just may really like a tool/gamestyle that another character just can't replace.

 

[FullMoon]

Clad if I could help

Anyways I hear people always talking about Japan vs 'Murica in Sm4sh. Also Mexico and Australia are also often mentioned. You rarely hear people talking about Europe, South America etc. when it comes to players getting results with characters. Why so?

Europe is talked about sometimes I think. South America though, lol.

 

[HoSmash4]

Clad if I could help

Anyways I hear people always talking about Japan vs 'Murica in Sm4sh. Also Mexico and Australia are also often mentioned. You rarely hear people talking about Europe, South America etc. when it comes to players getting results with characters. Why so?

The sad truth is that Europe/South America isnt on the level of America (Tristate/Florida/Socal) yet sadly.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

Europe is talked about sometimes I think. South America though, lol.

Europe has more melee talent than smash 4 right now, IDK about South America

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Tell that to ally. He's clutched a couple of close sets by only throwing out multiple Usmashes.

and throwing off the opponent. Being unpredictable and being random is a legit tactic. I'm not saying you can't do that, but saying that marios can just throw out Usmashes without much risk and abuse Dthrow Utilt like it's some Luigi-type combo is simply ridiculous.
EDIT:

why would you even play a character that didn't have something you can abuse? Serious question - why play a character who's options are so bad that they lack one dominant/domineering tool

Let's address this. What are you talking when you asked that serious question? Who mentioned wanting to play a bad character with little options? I sure didn't. I was arguing that Mario is a honest character. He can't rely on bull bull to get things done. He doesn't destroy really anybody based on his moveset (heavies are arguable. They take a lot of percent, but then he has no kill confirms and has little range. Heavies have more range generally and they stock up in rage. They get abused offstage, but then they have really good edge guard games generally and good juggle games. Mario also doesn't kill super good).

 

[Sonicninja115]

Is it just me, or does SoCal look as strong as Japan?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Puff's aerials deal so little knockback that they're a risk even on hit. This character simply doesn't function until your opponent is already at high percent, and considering you're using the lightest character and have gotten damaged by this point you're pretty much screwed already. Taking this into account, there's no reason to challenge a retreating Puff. She can do the job for you.

Pound does a lot of damage to shield but why does that matter when it's punishable and you're using a character that can't afford to trade let alone get hit? Pound is hardly threatening. And she absolutely does not want your opponent to condition to roll, she has no answers to them.

This character is bad. Why her being the worst in the game isn't the consensus yet is beyond me.

You (and a lot of people) act like she can't afford to do trades. She's really light, yes, but that just means she will die ~20% earlier than other characters. As long as she is playing safe and not getting hit by smash attacks, she can do trades.

Pound is good because it resorts them to either roll or get their shield hurt. If she uses it at kill percent she is dumb easy as that. Even if she doesn't have good tools to punish rolls, it still resorts them to a better option than always using shield for example.

Puff's aerials do little knock back at low percent, but they start knocking well past maybe 25. Note my point earlier, just because you're light doesn't mean trades are the worst thing ever.

I never said she was good, bottom tier yes. She can't afford to do trades the same way Mewtwo/Rosa can't (hint they can). She has good tools but crippling weaknesses, not the other way around.

 

[aεrgiα]

You're comparing everyone to sheik and ZSS......... That's something you shouldn't do. At all.

And you can't spam Usmash. It's not possible at a high level to hit someone like that by spamming.

i didnt compare everone to sheik zss, at all... i said those two are basically the only two characters you cant gimp with cape since you said cape doesnt work against anyone with a good recovery... some characters are of course harder than othersbut most recoveries can be caped, even good ones such as meta knight...(the exception being teleports)
and yes u can spam usmash, its even comical at times watching ally do it(for eg) ofc u cant sit there for a whole 2 minutes throwing out usmashes, but its one of the most spammable smashes in the game...

also, about europe, it is talked about a bit, but more in the case of players rather than the scene as a whole, see: istudying, mr.r(hes a special case though), ixis and izaw(to name a few of the names ive heard the most)

 

[G. Stache]

You (and a lot of people) act like she can't afford to do trades. She's really light, yes, but that just means she will die ~20% earlier than other characters. As long as she is playing safe and not getting hit by smash attacks, she can do trades.

This one point I want to question. Sure, not all trades are horrible for Puff, but can you give a believable (IE: good luck trading with sheik's Fair) instance where the trade becomes in Jiggly's favor? Genuinely curious, as I can't think of any. Jiggly just doesn't seem to have the damage output to deal with any kind of trade, considering her weight.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

This one point I want to question. Sure, not all trades are horrible for Puff, but can you give a believable (IE: good luck trading with sheik's Fair) instance where the trade becomes in Jiggly's favor? Genuinely curious, as I can't think of any. Jiggly just doesn't seem to have the damage output to deal with any kind of trade, considering her weight.

Most trades won't be in her favour, but she can still do trades. A big example of a trade in her favour is a hot that sends them offstage. Even though she isn't the BEST at gimping, she is definitely good and can end stocks that way.

 

[PK Gaming]

You (and a lot of people) act like she can't afford to do trades. She's really light, yes, but that just means she will die ~20% earlier than other characters. As long as she is playing safe and not getting hit by smash attacks, she can do trades.

Pound is good because it resorts them to either roll or get their shield hurt. If she uses it at kill percent she is dumb easy as that. Even if she doesn't have good tools to punish rolls, it still resorts them to a better option than always using shield for example.

Puff's aerials do little knock back at low percent, but they start knocking well past maybe 25. Note my point earlier, just because you're light doesn't mean trades are the worst thing ever.

I never said she was good, bottom tier yes. She can't afford to do trades the same way Mewtwo/Rosa can't (hint they can). She has good tools but crippling weaknesses, not the other way around.

You're theorycrafting pretty fierce and it's not a good look.

but that just means she will die ~20% earlier than other characters. As long as she is playing safe and not getting hit by smash attacks, she can do trades.

Bull****. This is objectively untrue in practice. Jigglypuff dies relative to how strong the opponents KO options are. Frankly, there are some instances where you die at absurd % due to how light it is. As "long as she plays safe" is incredibly vague and hopeful statements, and if you think most KOs are gotten through Smash attacks then you don't have a good grasp of high level play.

 

[Zelder]

I once killed a Jigglypuff at 40 with a input shoryuken. It didn't even seem fair at the time.

 

[S_B]

Although as a mild counterpoint to the idea that more options = viability, I suggest Robin and Shulk as examples of how it's possible to undertune a character to make up for their additional options and make them less viable as a result. Robin can do bronze or Levin aerials and Thunder is four very unique projectiles condensed into one move. He can also produce surprisingly strong throwable items on a regular basis, if not necessarily on demand. But he's slow as balls and bronze attacks aren't actually that useful and basically exist as a penalty for not managing the Levin Sword properly. Shulk has Monado Arts, no explanation needed for how those give him options, but his base stats and frame data aren't up to snuff on their own so he has to broadcast his intention via Art selection most of the time.

I see what you mean, but when I say "options", I mean a move that either A) can serve multiple functions when you use it, depending upon the situation or B ) behaves differently depending upon what buttons you press right then and there.

Shulk and Robin can both tweak their moves, true, but it's not like Robin can choose which of the four levels of thunder to use at any given moment, not like how Ryu can choose what speed/power hadouken to throw, or how Diddy can turn his command grab into an attack with an extra button press.

Shulk can also adjust his moveset, but he doesn't have access to additional types of attacks simultaneously like other characters do.

I also mention bouncing fish and flip kick because they're phenomenal moves for recovery, escaping bad situations, dealing damage AND KOing. There's just nothing bad about either one (nothing that isn't irrelevant next to all of the positives the moves have going for them). You can also adjust the trajectory/distance of them while using them, which also helps make them exceedingly useful.

Basically, when you have one move that can effectively be 3-4 different things at once, you have a superior character.

 

[Jams.]

Bull****. This is objectively untrue in practice. Jigglypuff dies relative to how strong the opponents KO options are. Frankly, there are some instances where you die at absurd % due to how light it is. As "long as she plays safe" is incredibly vague and hopeful statements, and if you think most KOs are gotten through Smash attacks then you don't have a good grasp of high level play.

I have to disagree with this. From my experience, while Jigglypuff can die hilariously early to kill confirms because the percent window is earlier than other characters, the window to execute these confirms also seems to be tighter. With rage it seems like these windows disappear altogether; ROB's dthrow->uair stops comboing on her at 0% and will never put her in a 50/50 situation if ROB has rage because she can safely jump out. I have found Mii Brawler's Helicopter Kicks confirms suffer the same way. She becomes immune to kill confirms much earlier than other characters at which point you have to land a raw kill move, which is generally fine because she's so light.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So, guys, found something kinda dumb with Cloud.

After Jams. pointed out how Komorikiri was recovering, I realized Cloud's airdodge FAF is 6 frames before the animation is over. I then got experimenting.

We all know how Cloud's Up+B early frames insta snap the ledge right? Airdodge into Up+B next to the ledge, when timed optimally, there's barely a window of punish. Varying timing makes the window larger and smaller obviously, but this is incredibly strong and really effective at quickly snapping the ledge around when his airdodge ends, and it's FAST. I encourage you all to try this, combined with DI up this is an incredibly strong easy recovery option (easy relative to Cloud's usual recovery)

Let's goooo

(Can't wait to see Cloud take names at Genesis by the by, it's going to happen)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

You rarely hear people talking about Europe, South America etc. when it comes to players getting results with characters. Why so?

Because EU sucks at smash 4. How many europeans players beyond Mr r can you name who would be a legitimate threat ... anywhere outside of europe?

 

[Ffamran]

And you can't spam Usmash. It's not possible at a high level to hit someone like that by spamming.

Meanwhile, in this set's first match: https://youtu.be/K7CB1CZWjio...

Someone said it before, you can spam moves to win, but how you do it is the question. Sporadically Bair walling people with Dr. Mario, DK, and Wolf? All doable in any game. Going for Up Smashes all the time with Luigi, Mario, or Mr. G&W? It'll work if both players are messing around, but probably won't if one of them is serious.

And a note about Falco, because I have to ask, is there any fundamental evidence or even foundation that Ryu beats Falco?

Gonna sum this up: 1. Falco is a fast faller which means light Utilts means death. 2. Falco is a lightweight which means pretty much Ryu's presence is enough to kill him. 3. Falco's jab fails on the entire cast, so no jab mixups or even full jab combos against anyone remotely clever enough to DI out. For Ryu, this means free hard punishes with Shoryuken if Falco jabs him. Yes, Falco's jab is a hit confirm for Ryu (and Cloud?, Dr. Mario, Fox, Jigglypuff, Lucina, Luigi, Mario, Marth, and Roy). 4. Falco is a wannabe to 2 characters: Mega Man and Ryu, therefore, he's the proto- or the inferior character to them. Melee and Brawl were wannabe Mega Man with their SH(D)L and Smash 4 is a wannabe Ryu who's also "afraid" of upsetting the OG SHDL master, Mega Man, so he stopped his shenanigans. Wannabes ain't got nothing on the real deal. 5. The game Falco wants to play, everything he does? Ryu does them better a millionfold.

I once killed a Jigglypuff at 40 with a input shoryuken. It didn't even seem fair at the time.

Meanwhile, Collarbone Breaker on-shield.

 

[Game7a1]

Meanwhile, Collarbone Breaker on-shield.

Doesn't break the shield immediately (from fresh). It leaves a little bit of shield left, and that little bit is enough to not get shield broken even from the shield stun (this I know from experience).
I get what you're trying to say, though.

 

[TurboLink]

I'll never understand why players don't try to catch Toon Link's bombs more often.

 

[JesterJaded]

I'll never understand why players don't try to catch Toon Link's bombs more often.

I believe this has a lot to do with a lack of catchable item play amongst the characters considered to be top 10, so optimizing counterplay against said items isn't viewed to be as important as, say, labbing against (Cloud) Sheik.

Playing patient and counterplay against bombs has been the bane of my existence though with my experiences playing Toon Link, particularly against patient Ness or Lucas players who can hold onto the bomb and absorb it when they want to. Knowing precisely how to deal with Tink's projectiles practically dismantles the character.

 

[LancerStaff]

So, guys, found something kinda dumb with Cloud.

After Jams. pointed out how Komorikiri was recovering, I realized Cloud's airdodge FAF is 6 frames before the animation is over. I then got experimenting.

We all know how Cloud's Up+B early frames insta snap the ledge right? Airdodge into Up+B next to the ledge, when timed optimally, there's barely a window of punish. Varying timing makes the window larger and smaller obviously, but this is incredibly strong and really effective at quickly snapping the ledge around when his airdodge ends, and it's FAST. I encourage you all to try this, combined with DI up this is an incredibly strong easy recovery option (easy relative to Cloud's usual recovery)

Let's goooo

(Can't wait to see Cloud take names at Genesis by the by, it's going to happen)

Is it a high or low ledge grab?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is it a high or low ledge grab?

It's high because he doesn't grab it from below. He's at level height/above it, I believe. Since it only snaps adjacently I don't think you can two frame it. That's the point of the upwards DI and the Airdodge towards but not below the ledge.

 

[Das Koopa]

Crew Batles time.

MD/VA vs. Texas for the opening match.

 

[Pazzo.]

Crew Batles time.

MD/VA vs. Texas for the opening match.

What channel?

 

[Das Koopa]

https://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg

 

[Y2Kay]

Crew Batles time.

MD/VA vs. Texas for the opening match.

which stream?

Edit: greninja'd again........

 

[Baby_Sneak]

guys I was looking at the descriptions for each type of mii fighter and somehow I came across this analogy to fighting games. Watch this:

Brawler: Virtua Fighter/ 3D fighters (have to fight close up)
SwordFighter: street fighter types (can go in, or play footsies)
Gunner: anime fighters (can do ranged fighting and the above)

Am I looking too far in this? I find it interesting. Now, I'm not saying brawlers can move in a 3D plane, or gunners can now air dash or sum, but they seem to bear resemblance (like you need to understand advantage/disadvantage more for brawlers than others, need to know your range when playing sword fighters more than others, and you need to know both? exceedingly well for gunners). Idk maybe I'm trippin or sum

 

[Das Koopa]

MDVA looking super free right now. Can't wait to see Pink with Lucas.

 

[L9999]

Did the crews just started or am I late for something?

 

[Smog Frog]

crews started here http://www.twitch.tv/showdowngg

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Dang. Not looking good for us. =(

Let's see what Alph can do against Ryu.

EDIT: That dair attempt was silly. Took so much damage. At least he got a stock though.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If Earth gets far at Genesis with Pit, could that move him up in the American tier lists(he's already around top 15 in the Japanese tier list)?

 

[Das Koopa]

Trela's a monster. IMO he could go Top 8 in singles.

 

[Wintermelon43]

If Earth gets far at Genesis with Pit, could that move him up in the American tier lists(he's already around top 15 in the Japanese tier list)?

Of course. Some with Ranai and Villager, Abadango with Meta Knight, Umeki with Peach, Komorikiri with Cloud, etc

 

[Y2Kay]

Dang it Trela chill! Seagull got a family to go back to man.

 

[Planty]

Doesn't Sonic have an advantageous matchup against Ryu? Seagull Joe just got 3 stocked by Trela.

 

[Das Koopa]

I wonder why they pulled Mister Eric for Acid. The only gameplay I've seen of Acid is at S@X where he plays like a For Glory falcon. Maybe Eric's performance at Dismantle scared them away.

 

[Y2Kay]

@Emblem Lord warned us about the sonic - ryu MU........

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Of course. Some with Ranai and Villager, Abadango with Meta Knight, Umeki with Peach, Komorikiri with Cloud, etc

So pretty much if a player gets far with a character that's not top/high tier, that character has a chance in moving up the ranks? If so, that's pretty reasonable.

 

[Das Koopa]

Texas beats MDVA
Norcal apparently beat Southwest