SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
Rolling is never useful. Theres almost always a better option.
And how am I complaining?
And how am I complaining?
-
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Character = Character
- Thread starter MATTS!
- Start date
kit
Smash Apprentice
64 isn't pre-mindgames... so rolling does have its uses =] haha
Matts- that's one hell of a confusing post, but if I read you correctly, you're saying that the only reason that people believe in tiers is that pros tell them tiers exist. It ain't so. Just take me and Ma man justcause for example- in every "tier-even" matchup, I can beat him, but in CF on samus, he'll wup me every time, despite the fact that I did not know until fairly recently that samus was the worst character in the game, and despite the fact that I practice with samus more than with almost any other character. Now, could a really good samus player kick his butt? Absolutely. but that same player, in my opinion, could kick his butt twice as hard with Pikachu if they practiced pika as much as samus. Am I being "brainwashed by the 'smash experts' with there numbers and garbage"? No. I'm simply observing that, at the present level of play, there does exist a definite tier list, surmountable by good players, but nonetheless affecting any match. Thus, in a match between a Ness and a pikachu, the pika player would have an advantage, unless the ness player had figured out some new technique or strategy that gave ness an edge over pika.
In conclusion: Player>tier. tier>0
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Rolling can be useful. There's just usually a better option available, making rolling obsolete (for the most part).
SSBPete
Smash Lord
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMGRR1feEoY
i dont think tiers make a difference, or if they do, its extremely minimul. if none of us had ever looked at the tier list, yet we'd still played as much as we had, i dont think anyone would have said "pika is the best char" or "samus sucks".
i dont think tiers make a difference, or if they do, its extremely minimul. if none of us had ever looked at the tier list, yet we'd still played as much as we had, i dont think anyone would have said "pika is the best char" or "samus sucks".
SheerMadness
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,781
The closer the players are in skill level the bigger difference it makes.
M3tr01D
Smash Lord
I don't get how you can actually say that though. Pika has better offensive, defensive, ground, air, recovery, and combo game. The only things I can think of that samus beats pika at that matter are b-air, MAYBE d-air, and that's it. Her recovery time out of combos is good, but at the cost of losing (virtually) all combo potential. Her up b is good, but pika's is better in every way besides damage lol. same with down b. bombs are decent but over the thunder kill? no way. And then it's a runaway for pikachu in grabs, rolls, tilts, aireals, and smashes.
Please don't write a counter about the combo stuff. Yes I know samus "can" combo, if you do some silly things with walls and stuff or an opponent stands next to you for your up smash.
SSBPete
Smash Lord
ok mabye pika is the "best character" but i think the difference between characters is so minimul that if u got 2 players equaly good, 1 playing as samus and 1 as pika, the pika would probly win 51% of the time.
B Link
Smash Lord
meh, I think people who play online have misinterpretations of skill, which coincides with the errors made in discussing tiers.
In online smash, it is usually harder for someone good to use a "low tier" character to win against just an average player using a "high tier". This is because you can rarely afford mistakes with low tier characters and given the fact that online play sucks with delay + lag, it makes it seem like the gap between characters is much larger than it actually is.
In online smash, it is usually harder for someone good to use a "low tier" character to win against just an average player using a "high tier". This is because you can rarely afford mistakes with low tier characters and given the fact that online play sucks with delay + lag, it makes it seem like the gap between characters is much larger than it actually is.
malva00
Smash Master
lol online kids
i don't mean anything by that i just felt like saying it
i don't mean anything by that i just felt like saying it
ballin4life
Smash Hero
People always like to talk about who the "best" character is.
hamburglar
Smash Journeyman
single examples of a situation don't prove anything. not trying to be an *** but the video is redundant. also, i remember being an ignorant smasher when i was 12 or 13 who didn't know **** about how to play the game to it's potential but my friends and i would still say that kirby and pika had an advantage over others. things like this are obvious even to people who don't play too often. obviously every character has the potential to beat another but saying all characters have the same level of weaknesses and strengths and the same learning curves is straight up ********. period.
SSBPete
Smash Lord
good thing i never said that...i'm saying the difference is so minimul that it makes hardly any difference and with enough practice, u can beat any high tier characters with someone good playing them. for lower tiers you DO have to practice more to get to the level of a high tier character but they peak in the same range, high tiers just get there a bit quicker.
Character math-ups no doubt exist, it's just that the larger the skill gap between 2 players the less the character advantage exists. For example that video of Isai(Samus) vs. park(Pikachu), the character advantages became minimal since Isai as a player is simply far better than park. (No offense park, I could of said any other player in the universe and the statment could of been true.)
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Your explanation contradicts your use of the word 'tiers'. Tiers are, by definition, about potential, not how hard it is for a character to be good.
hamburglar
Smash Journeyman
the difference is in the amount of practice you're talking about. You're absolutely right in saying that with enough practice someone can beat a higher tier character played by an experienced player with a lower tier character. but it would take a significantly longer time to get to that point than if you reversed the situation. the longer you play the game, the better you tend to get so i think that makes the difference kinda significant.
malva00
Smash Master
That's correct just cause you play me and you're on youtube doesn't make you pro lOL
Paladin77
Smash Journeyman
Still, some characters have worse moves against others. its like in pokemon
You might have a really good strategy with blastoise and all your water moves.
And maybe hydro pump is your main source of damage
But when you're against a grass type, your hydro pump is way less effective.
Try gimping kirby untill he is forced to use his up-b. Pretty hard i must say
Characters have advantages over others, but skill can overcome those advantages and disadvantages
You might have a really good strategy with blastoise and all your water moves.
And maybe hydro pump is your main source of damage
But when you're against a grass type, your hydro pump is way less effective.
Try gimping kirby untill he is forced to use his up-b. Pretty hard i must say
Characters have advantages over others, but skill can overcome those advantages and disadvantages
D
Deleted member
Guest
i guess complaining about MATTS isn't the best statement, more like noob *****ing
and
that is a very very bold statement if you say rolling is NEVER useful, even for Samus
asianaussie
Smash Hero
If Kirby doesn't recover high, he's not that hard to gimp, as long as you don't make yourself obvious bait.
Blastoise is silly, use Starmie. And if I ever did use Blastoise, I'd probably do something bulky with Counter and Mirror Coat.
DaisyBoo92
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2009
- Messages
- 120
Some characters are inevitably better than others. You can't treat everything equally.
Using Isai as a reason why the tier list doesn't exist.....Isai is his own tier list
and as people said, Tier list just say about potential. Its why Kirby never went up and fox is going up dramatically and why ness dropped so much.
DMoogle
A$
It's supposed to be about high level play, not potential. If it were potential, Yoshi would probably be top because of his parry.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
I think he means human potential, not TAS potential
DMoogle
A$
Then does TAS potential include Isai potential?
EDIT: I'm not a big fan of these smilies.
DMoogle
A$
Um, no it's not? Disjointed hitboxes ftw.
lol nixxxon
asianaussie
Smash Hero
If it's TAS, you can choose who wins. Fighting polygon Samus for top tier.
-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd0ms93PtvQ
disjointed hitboxes and projectiles aside, Ness is like a hitbox himself.
Please try to make a normal comment, not a troll comment, your wasting server space
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
What with everyone saying melee is unbalanced, lol have you see the results of the last two big melee tournys?
genesis
jiggs(6th tier)
peach(5th tier)
jiggs(6th tier)
falco(4th tier)
RoM2
jiggs(6th tier)
falco(4th tier)
ZOMGANONDORF(11th tier)
jiggs(6th tier)
lol our top 3 didn't make top 4 at the last two big tournaments.
genesis
jiggs(6th tier)
peach(5th tier)
jiggs(6th tier)
falco(4th tier)
RoM2
jiggs(6th tier)
falco(4th tier)
ZOMGANONDORF(11th tier)
jiggs(6th tier)
lol our top 3 didn't make top 4 at the last two big tournaments.
That's 4 characters out of 26. Doesn't seem very balanced to me.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
They're the same people. mango and hbox are the two jiggs players, drPP is on falco and zhu is the other. And there's still the fact that our best characters didn't make top four.
edit: btw jiggs' and falco's are running our scene because no one know how to play them. They have completely new styles that we haven't adapted to yet.
another edit: why does it say top 5 when you quoted me but I wrote top 3?
yes, yet another edit: I don't want to de-rail the topic so just ignore me and call me a melee*** or whatever...
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Melee is unbalanced in the sense that there are like 15 characters that will never win a tournament.
However, Melee is good in the sense that it has 7+ tournament viable characters
However, Melee is good in the sense that it has 7+ tournament viable characters
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Wow, that made 100% sense to me.
